Greatest Threat to the Vintage Car Hobby

[Guest Classic50s]

What do you see as the greatest threat to the continuation to the vintage car hobby? Everyone has thought at one time or another about the future of collecting, restoring, and driving vintage cars and I would like to open a discussion about this.

My opinion is the lack of interest among people my age (25) along with the cost to get into the hobby being the biggest problems. This is why. I have been into the vintage car hobby since I was 16. I am considered a eccentric by my friends for it to. I went to McPherson college for auto restoration only to find out I couldn't afford it, Yet I still spend all my money just trying to restore 1 car myself (1959 Buick 2 door). I have owned mostly GM 1954-1959 vintage and take great pride in driving my classics daily and showing my friends WHY post war cars kick a##. I see alot of my buddies interested but not willing to shell out the same amount of money for a car they can buy a house for. I still have about 25 to 30 grand to go before its finished plus all the time I have to put into it. The hobby has gotten so picky over the years that a good restoration 30 years ago would be mediocre at best now. Having owned 'restored' cars before to save money I found out people cut to many corners. That is why I am doing a nut and bolt restoration on my B59 (so I know it was done right). I noticed also that most car clubs I am a member of (BCA and 59 Division included) that I am the only or one of the only 'young' guys in it. So I have to 'prove' myself to be considered more then just a fan even though I have worked on, repaired, and partially restored cars from a 1954 Chevrolet with the Babbitt L6 to the 1959 Buicks. In that regard it seems that this hobby is centered around the older, wealthier generations thus making it uninviting to people my age to get involved.

Is There a solution?

This hobby has attracted many people from all walks of life but few young guys. It seems this hobby is in cruise control with nobody at the wheel to direct this hobby to address problems and threats to it. For example. When was the last time you saw an ad on TV promoting the restoration of vintage cars (not specific cars like mustangs but vintage in general) or trying to recruit new members? That alone can bring this hobby to the public mind and allow a influx of new membership not seen in decades.

[1939_Buick]

In my limited experience of collectible cars in the USA, many seem to be over restored. Nothing like they left the factory. Very few if any, ex factory cars would get 400 points is a USA car show. Why the obsession in the USA for "400 points" is beyond me and others who do not live in the USA

[R Walling]

It seems to me that the older a car is, the more money people will want to put into it for a restoration.

An antique is 25 years old, and I for one, would not want to invest more money into an 88 Cadillac than what I paid for one in 1988.

Maybe I'm showing my age, but an antique car to me, is before 1935 or so.

[joe_padavano]

My opinion is the lack of interest among people my age (25) along with the cost to get into the hobby being the biggest problems.

I think that a general lack of interest in driving by younger people is the underlying problem. There are numerous reports that the average age at which people get their license is climbing rapidly. I disagree about the cost issue, as there are MANY collectible cars out there available at reasonable prices. The distraction of electronic devices seems to be the problem - virtual experiences instead of real ones.

[DonMicheletti]

This is a great question.

Through the years much of the "mechanical" culture of the country has changed.

There was a time when a guy could do almost all of his own auto maintenance. The schools taught shop classes where people would actually learn to use their hands. A slide into antique car interest was easy.

This has changed. Modern cars are virtually maintenance free and then it is almost impossible to do anything without expensive equipment. You dont HAVE to work on a car.

Also, restoring an old car used to be relatively inexpensive for a "do it yourselfer". Materials like paint were inexpensive and you could do it in your garage. Environmental laws and materials costs have made this difficult.

I choke when I have to pay more for an exhaust system today than what I paid for a "antique" car many years ago, -- but I can get it.

The other side of the coin is that now there are lots of repro parts that you would have to make yourself or substitute 40+ years ago.

It will be interesting to see just how many 2013 will be "restored" 50 years from now.

Don

[Bhigdog]

In my limited experience of collectible cars in the USA, many seem to be over restored. Nothing like they left the factory. Very few if any, ex factory cars would get 400 points is a USA car show. Why the obsession in the USA for "400 points" is beyond me and others who do not live in the USA

Simple answer is if I'm putting 3000 hours of work or $100,000 USD into a restoration I don't want it ending up looking like it was put together by a bunch of indifferent line workers who were being driven by management to get the car out the door in as little time as possible. I want it to look like the designer envisioned it.

In other words what you may consider an "over restored" car I consider a "properly restored" car. One that reflects what the designer hoped his creation would look like. That is, straight margins, well fitting panels, aligned trim, sparkling chrome, flawless paint and smooth upholstery.

Just because the factory failed him doesn't mean I have to imitate their shoddy workmanship.

You say "as from the factory" I say "as it was supposed to be"..................Bob

Edited July 21, 2013 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

General lack of interest by the younger generation now that the car has been nothing but an appliance for 35 years. Plus the high and rising cost of everything from gas to paint to decent cars. Plus the ever growing burden of government regulations aimed at getting old cars off the road.

In the modern world of political correctness, global warming and terriss threats anything to do with cars, fun, or anything other than being an over regimented wage slave, tax payer and consumer is verboten.

Edited July 21, 2013 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[junkyardjeff]

The younger generation has bee brainwashed into thinking cars are evil and will destroy the world by the schools and media.

[Terry Bond]

I think that our President Tom Cox expressed it quite well during his remarks on the just completed Vintage Tour (see meets and tours section on this forum for a great picture of all the young folks on the tour). Tom acknowledged what many feel - The biggest problem is all of us not taking individual responsibility for trying to attract younger folks and newer members.

The subject has been debated here endlessly and often takes different paths - how do you define "restoration" "old-car" "antique-car" even "How you define youth." This past week I met people entering the hobby much later in life as well. Several folks on the tour got into the hobby later in life thanks to the efforts of friends, neighbors and business acquaintances. For those new members on their first tour, extending the hand of friendship will be help their continued enjoyment. There are a lot of complainers out there waiting for the major clubs to do something - truth is those clubs are doing a lot, but it remains the individual responsibility of each of us to do something to keep our hobby alive-not just sit around the campfire complaining about it. So, let me ask the question - what are we individually doing to help gain new and/or younger members?

[JV Puleo]

I wonder if we aren't overdoing the hand-wringing on this subject. I bought my first antique car (a 1927 Cadillac) in 1971 when I was 19 years old, shortly after a HS friend of mine bought a 1926 Chrysler. None of our neighbors and school mates shared our interest. We were easily the youngest "old car" guys we knew by a good 20 or 25 years. We encountered the same grouchy old timers and the same decent, outgoing people that many have remarked on. My impression is that almost nothing has changed in that regard in 40 years. I didn't come to old cars with any earlier experience. Only one of my grandparents even drove a car and no one in my family then, or now, had any interest in them. No one ever invited me to attend an event... in fact, I attended my first antique car show after I had bought the Cadillac.

Interest in specific collecting fields is not static. It changes over time, but the old car hobby is simply not old enough for many of those cycles to have taken place. We often hear that interest is generated by youthful experience... getting the car we coveted as a teenager etc. I suspect this is partly true but badly over rated. Were it not so, who would want a brass car? There is hardly anyone alive who ever saw one on the road when they were new. It is probably a mistake to try to predict where the next generation of collectors will come from or what they will covet but I think we can be certain that no 1929 Packards will be heading for the scrapyard because no one wants them. What may change is that cars will not be desirable just because they are old. In my other collecting fields I've often said "If it was junk new, its junk now." I doubt that many people agree with that expression, but I think it is clear that the best of anything tends to hold attention longer.

I also suspect there may be a problem with how the subject is approached. The (to me) insane emphasis on "better than new" condition... on fabulous and expensive restorations and collecting trophies is off putting. Perhaps what is lacking is interest in old car clubs (as they exist today) rather than an interest in old cars. I know, from my own experience, several would-be collectors who have literally been scared off by the endless emphasis on extremely high dollar cars and inflated "values." We all know that some very interesting, early cars can still be had for essentially "blue-collar" money but people on the periphery of collecting aren't aware of it. In the past, lots of folks could and did produce some very creditable restorations but I suspect that the current emphasis on competition and "better than new" condition is tantamount to saying to many "you don't have the wherewithal to play this game."

Edited July 22, 2013 by JV Puleo
changed font size....old eyes here! (see edit history)

[GARY F]

What do you see as the greatest threat to the continuation to the vintage car hobby? Everyone has thought at one time or another about the future of collecting, restoring, and driving vintage cars and I would like to open a discussion about this.

My opinion is the lack of interest among people my age (25) along with the cost to get into the hobby being the biggest problems. This is why. I have been into the vintage car hobby since I was 16. I am considered a eccentric by my friends for it to. I went to McPherson college for auto restoration only to find out I couldn't afford it, Yet I still spend all my money just trying to restore 1 car myself (1959 Buick 2 door). I have owned mostly GM 1954-1959 vintage and take great pride in driving my classics daily and showing my friends WHY post war cars kick a##. I see alot of my buddies interested but not willing to shell out the same amount of money for a car they can buy a house for. I still have about 25 to 30 grand to go before its finished plus all the time I have to put into it. The hobby has gotten so picky over the years that a good restoration 30 years ago would be mediocre at best now. Having owned 'restored' cars before to save money I found out people cut to many corners. That is why I am doing a nut and bolt restoration on my B59 (so I know it was done right). I noticed also that most car clubs I am a member of (BCA and 59 Division included) that I am the only or one of the only 'young' guys in it. So I have to 'prove' myself to be considered more then just a fan even though I have worked on, repaired, and partially restored cars from a 1954 Chevrolet with the Babbitt L6 to the 1959 Buicks. In that regard it seems that this hobby is centered around the older, wealthier generations thus making it uninviting to people my age to get involved.

Is There a solution?

This hobby has attracted many people from all walks of life but few young guys. It seems this hobby is in cruise control with nobody at the wheel to direct this hobby to address problems and threats to it. For example. When was the last time you saw an ad on TV promoting the restoration of vintage cars (not specific cars like mustangs but vintage in general) or trying to recruit new members? That alone can bring this hobby to the public mind and allow a influx of new membership not seen in decades.

Lets see some pics of your 59 buick

[JV Puleo]

In my limited experience of collectible cars in the USA, many seem to be over restored. Nothing like they left the factory. Very few if any, ex factory cars would get 400 points is a USA car show. Why the obsession in the USA for "400 points" is beyond me and others who do not live in the USA

Its quite beyond me as well... and I live here!

[Rusty_OToole]

The "over restored" business is dying out. In recent years the original unrestored cars are coming into their own. I was looking at a car magazine in Walmart today. Two of the featured cars were a 1953 Buick Special, unrestored, with 200,000 miles on it still being driven by the original owner. And an unrestored Franklin from the twenties. Every month they have a "driver" car and an unrestored antique of some kind.

[smithbrother]

Each to his/her own. To me what some call OVER-RESTORED is a car finished like the designer hoped it to be when it rolled out of assembly. YES, he/she knew it wouldn't be the case, but that's the thought they had in mind.

So if you want to make it perfect or very near perfect, then go for it. I love them all, I have a modified, and drive it, and it gets dirty, but if you want to trailer a car that's YOUR CHOICE.

Enjoy your car, that's what counts, IMO.

Dale in Indy

[Guest buttsnjava]

"Don't know about antique car being out of reach for young collectors. We here are selling a 1988 Buick Reatta. Original owner--43,500 miles, Converted AC. Rebuilt Computer screen by Master Technition Eddie Voland. Antenna and Headlights part repaired with Barney Eaton's SUPER parts. New Headliner--Car runs like new--always garaged NEED to sell because of illness in home. Noone seems to want to pay even 4K for ir--Sad

[TerryB]

As the father of a 20 year old son who grew up around my cars and motorcycles, I believe there are several reasons for lack of youth involvement. One is the decline in working on mechanical stuff by the general population. Most people no longer have tools or even an interest in fixing anything. Many of my son's friends would come to my house to fix or make things as I had the tools and a place to work on projects. Most said they were lucky to have a few hammers and screwdrivers in their home toolbox. They were surprised to lean that there was both SAE and metric in the fastener world.

Another thing I see is the lack of cars that are exciting to own or restore. Most younger people like import cars and a few like pickup trucks for projects. I don't see too many youth that are impressed by 1950's to 1970's cars of any kind. Rather they look for Japanese and Euro cars like VWs to modify. Pickup trucks also offered a chance to personalize as many aftermarket parts exist for them. My son thinks the best car for him to "restore" some day is an older BMW.

Finally, even those who show some interest in autos are more impressed with electronic devices and the "apps" they can get for them. Just hang out in an Apple store or Best Buy and see where the youth are. Now go to your local Sears tool center and see how many young people you see there. Most times its just me and a few others about my age (61) hanging out in the automotive tool area.

I predict the next generation of restorers will be working on a much more international mix of cars than we old Detroit iron lovers could have ever imagined. Their numbers will be small but their passion for what they are doing will be strong.

Terry

[john2dameron]

I think most people have to raise their children and pay for their home before they can think about indulging in the old car hobby. I think that is a bigger problem than the lack of interest. What will affect the hobby the most is the efforts of politicians and the EPA. The government puts our tax dollars into the EPA and we see no benefit of that. At least if someone invests in restoring an automobile you can see the improvements and almost sense the pride they feel for their work.

[Dave@Moon]

The younger generation has bee brainwashed into thinking cars are evil and will destroy the world by the schools and media.

"The younger generation". Yeah, right.

Unbelievable.

I'm 55 years old. I was "brainwashed" in school in this manner. Everybody who pays any attention to reality knows the environmental impact of automobiles, and the short- and long-term consequences thereof. Just because this science existed when a "younger" person was schooled doesn't mean a d@mn thing, especially when "young" includes people approaching retirement already. Either education and expertise mean something to one, or they don't. It may be that age erodes the perception or appreciation of expertise, but that hardly is the fault of those who are perceptive and appreciative.

The very idea that denial of this aspect of automobile ownership is going to be a mitigation among others is daft. It may be that as an individual it is something that one would ignore/deny. That is often a response to what has been called "an inconvenient truth" in more than just this phenomenon. However to the "brainwashed" even the appearance that real scientific facts are being dismissed is distasteful. It speaks to an unenlightened view on a subject of importance, and drives people away in hoards no matter their age.

It isn't what is taught about cars that is part of the problem, although the negative reaction to it illustrated here certainly is. It is our failure to express what cars meant to our generation and those previous to ours, and what that means to "younger" people. There isn't anyone alive today who can remember an age when seeing the Grand Canyon, the Hamptons, Yellowstone, Yosemite, or even the suburbs was the province of the wealthy. The age when middle-class children only saw grass on special trips to a park has been gone for many generations now. The age when you had to work within walking distance of your home has been over too long to be remembered. When was the last time you heard anyone discuss this aspect of automobiles? Do you think your grandchildren know anything of this?

It is that value to our cars, and the legacy of it with out society today, that is not being taught. Instead of reacting like obsessed spoiled children denying anything wrong with any aspect of something we like, perhaps if we countered the real science (environmental and sociological) about car ownership with real perspective on what personal transportation has meant to society (and will mean in the future as the negative impacts are mitigated) then people might see the import of preserving this legacy and by connection our cars. If we don't, and we continue to waste energy pretending there was never anything wrong about the automobile, then we're no different in many eyes than a racist who pines for "the old days".

[Bhigdog]

HUH????????????????

[junkyardjeff]

I am 52 and never was brainwashed that cars are evil so you must be a product of the public school system and since you are buying into that maybe you should just sell any old car you have and just stick with the prius. While you are at it install solar panels and a wind mill if you have not yet,if you get in the passing lane on I75 with your prius going slower then the speed limit and see a blue 1966 f250 in your rear view mirror get out of the way.

"The younger generation". Yeah, right.

Unbelievable.

I'm 55 years old. I was "brainwashed" in school in this manner. Everybody who pays any attention to reality knows the environmental impact of automobiles, and the short- and long-term consequences thereof. Just because this science existed when a "younger" person was schooled doesn't mean a d@mn thing, especially when "young" includes people approaching retirement already. Either education and expertise mean something to one, or they don't. It may be that age erodes the perception or appreciation of expertise, but that hardly is the fault of those who are perceptive and appreciative.

The very idea that denial of this aspect of automobile ownership is going to be a mitigation among others is daft. It may be that as an individual it is something that one would ignore/deny. That is often a response to what has been called "an inconvenient truth" in more than just this phenomenon. However to the "brainwashed" even the appearance that real scientific facts are being dismissed is distasteful. It speaks to an unenlightened view on a subject of importance, and drives people away in hoards no matter their age.

It isn't what is taught about cars that is part of the problem, although the negative reaction to it illustrated here certainly is. It is our failure to express what cars meant to our generation and those previous to ours, and what that means to "younger" people. There isn't anyone alive today who can remember an age when seeing the Grand Canyon, the Hamptons, Yellowstone, Yosemite, or even the suburbs was the province of the wealthy. The age when middle-class children only saw grass on special trips to a park has been gone for many generations now. The age when you had to work within walking distance of your home has been over too long to be remembered. When was the last time you heard anyone discuss this aspect of automobiles? Do you think your grandchildren know anything of this?

It is that value to our cars, and the legacy of it with out society today, that is not being taught. Instead of reacting like obsessed spoiled children denying anything wrong with any aspect of something we like, perhaps if we countered the real science (environmental and sociological) about car ownership with real perspective on what personal transportation has meant to society (and will mean in the future as the negative impacts are mitigated) then people might see the import of preserving this legacy and by connection our cars. If we don't, and we continue to waste energy pretending there was never anything wrong about the automobile, then we're no different in many eyes than a racist who pines for "the old days".

[R W Burgess]

Let's keep the emotions in check guys!

[NTX5467]

There's a phrase that was very popular a while back, but which I TOTALLY DETEST . . . "Perception IS reality". YUK!! I DO believe in "self-fulfilling prophesies", somewhat, which can also relate to the particular person's orientations and then seeming to "make it so".

With THOSE comments now sitcheeated . . . For anybody who thinks that younger people are not interested in cars . . . then you need to take a road trop to the Mopar Nationals event this year, or next. In their car show area, they began a "Young Guns" section just for the very people the car hobby is seeking to attract. And it is very popular, and has been for many years! Now, these are not the older vintage Chrysler products many in here might desire, but cars these high-schoolers can afford and own. In about 2005, there was a high school shop class project on display, too, but again, it was not what many in here would like to see. It was Plymouth Acclaim. What made it special was that it was fully customized (I know, "customized" might be a dirty word to some, but please bear with me). The car also had suicide doors! The car had a fully custom paint job, the engine compartment was completely detailed, the interior was fully customized, too. No huge tire/wheel package, but they were "size proportionate" for the car. So, they took a (possibly donated) vehicle and gave it a complete makeover in all respects, investing way more than the car was ever worth when new! I know that some in here might be turned-off by the fact that somebody took a "late model" front wheel drive car and put that kind of time and money into it, but what did these kids have to lose? What did they learn in this longer-term class project? And you should have seen their excitement of having the car at (possibly) the premier Mopar event in North America! They knew where they were and what THEY had done to get there . . . and it showed in their faces and fervor in making sure the car was a great as they could make it, even if it was in a somewhat dirty environment of a grass show field! Constantly buffing and wiping to ensure it was as spotless and shiney as it could be. And these were high school kids who might not even have their driver's license yet!

But they were not unique in their pride of having their car in that particular show, either! Others in the Young Guns class were there with their '72 Challengers, '73 Barracudas, '65 Belvedere station wagon, or '69 Polara convertible, among others. Yes, there were some of the Chrysler hot rod fwd Daytonas in there too. ALL, typically, cars which many "collectors" would not look 1/3 of twice at, but THESE owners were in love with their cars, how they'd done them, and were as competitive about having a good showing for their car as any 40-something I'd ever seen.

Then, down at the end of the drag strip area was a convenience store (at National Trails Raceway, east of Columbus on US-40). In the parking lot a Dodge Neon owner (high school age, again) was putting drag slicks on the front of his "upgraded" Neon, using a torque wrench in the proper torque sequence. Looking on was his father, mother, and siblings. He was "doing it right", too. The engine had some upgrades, which he probably did himself, too. But it would have been very easy to also envision the grandfather looking on and smiling, remembering how HE hot rodded his flathead Plymouth when he was his grandson's age, or his son's later V-8 Plymouth. And we can't forget the grandmothers who were tending to the young grandkids under the Viper tent, either!

Now, if the "perception is reality", the Mopar hobby will be alive and kicking for centuries to come. Yet I've seen what many in here have mentioned, too, which can lead to many of the comments about that perceived reality and related future of the hobby. Now, if we can collectively figure out how to "flip" what many in here have seen into what I've seen at the Mopar Nats for many years, there's no telling what we can accomplish!

The cost of the automotive hobby has always seemed to be a challenge of sorts, even 40 years ago. Finding and sequentiall-acquiring the needed tools is always a big hurdle! Just as having a residence which is similarly-suitable! Yet, with the shrinking "middle class" of our society, things have seemed to get worse.

In the 1980s, the "mini-truck" craze was gaining speed. The vehicles themselves were unremarkable, by any measure, but these high school guys (and a few gals) bought these little import trucks and proceeded to invest massive amount of time, helping each other, in their trucks. Paint and color-panelling was usually better than the bulk of restoration shops could produce back then. Paint quality was excellent, as was the detailing under the hood, probably necessitating an "engine extraction" for the access to do what they did. And they were proud of what they did, most receiving awards in the process, too. No racing mods, just appearance mods, usually, at that time. From the signals I saw, these kids usually came from somewhat well-off family situations, but they also had jobs to help fund their vehicle activities.

An associate and I was ambling through an indoor show one evening near closing time and we stopped at the mini-truck club display. He remarked "You might not like these vehicles, but you can't discount the quality of the work these kids have done, even on detailing the firewall area to match the exterior paint work." I agreed (as there was NO way to disagree!). Here these teens were, pretty much up-staging the bulk of the "restorers" in the show that year, or at least matching them in all areas. Several years later, the mini-truck groups had transitioned into suspension mods and sound systems, getting away from pure cosmetic things, for what it's worth. That particular group went on to college and suspected well-paying jobs in the outside world. Yet what they accomplished in their younger years would, hopefully, carry on into other vehicular activities as their possible future-family situation might allow.

In the 1990s, at one of our local Mopar club's annual shows, where we had classes for ALL Chrysler Corp vehicles (with the stipulation that they must be Chrysler produced and/or Chrysler-powered vehicles), a high school guy showed up with his fwd Dodge Daytona. I saw it drive in and later went around to officially-classify his vehicle. I welcomed him to the show and stated how glad we were to see some fwd cars come to it. Under the hood were some factory Moper Perf hot rod items. I commented favorably on that and engaged him in conversation about what his future plans might be for the car. I was a glad that something like that came as he was to be there. And, he took hom a trophy, too.

Now, how can we make "flipping" the perceived-by-many situation into something more favorable happen? It's not going to be an easy answer. It's not going to be a "universal" answer, either!

-----

Quality of restorations . . . have increased significantly over the past decades. The availability of better materials and techniques to make it happen have been some key factors. This is usually good, but can go overboard, too.

I like a correctly-restored car, even an unmolested car, over a cosmetically over-restored car. As mentioned, so many worry more about the paint than what's under it. Certainly, if panel gaps and panel alignment can be tweaked and finessed in the "fix-up" process, then so be it. But I've also seen a good number of "restored" cars that needed to have their door slammed shut as that was the most reliable way to close them! I saw that on a "fussy restoration" Shelby GT500 one year! The car looked great, but having to slam the doors told me that other things (hidden from view) might have received similar lacks of finesse or attention.

In a lot of respects, I don't have an issue with making it better than new, but at least as "good as new" generally. Making satin-black-painted areas into (the default) "shiney black" areas is a big no-no for me, for example. What looks good in an indoor show, or possibly an outdoor show, might not be "right" for the car, though. Just depends upon whether you mgiht desire to play the "shows well" game or "correctly-done" (even if it might look slightly sloppy in a few areas) game. I'll always respect the builder/owner who takes the extra time to finesse their car (easy closing doors, good panel gap alignment for that particular vehicle, OEM-spec paint and materials, and assembly-marks/daubs) than one who spends a similar amount of money to get a car that looks good, but is not nearly as correct as it could be nor runs/performs as well as it should.

Thanks for the time,

NTX5467

Edited July 23, 2013 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[MarrsCars]

To add a couple of bright notes to the conversation I believe that the recent trend of car shows on multiple networks is giving the hobby a huge boost and some much needed exposure to the technology generation. Jerry Seinfeld's Comedians In Cars Getting Coffee is especially brilliant at bridging this gap by featuring popular comedians, many the young crowd likes such as Sarah Silverman and Seth Myers, Chris Rock, etc. Teens and 20-somethings are watching this show for the guests but come back for the cars.

I am also happy to report that not only did I see many younger people (let's say toddlers to the age of 18) at the Forest Grove Concours d'Elegance over the weekend outside of Portland, OR. I can say for sure that those kids were all almost universally intrigued and excited by the cars on display. I also brought along a friend who had never attended, thinking perhaps that not being a "car guy" he would be out of place. Oddly, once we got there his camera came out and he snapped photos of almost every car there. After a while he mentioned that he once owned a Porsche and he gave me some info on Shelby Mustangs and some other American cars that I did not know, I found it odd that someone who clearly loves cars would still feel out of place at a show like this, feeling that his knowledge was inferior and would make him not welcome. Point being, it's not just kids we need to get interested, tho that's the obvious place to start, but engage anyone you know who has even a passing interest in cars in any way. I often hear from friends or acquaintances that "I don;t know much about cars but I can appreciate the design of old cars" or something along those lines, guess what that means to me? I now have a foot in the door to convince them to come along with me to the next show and without fail, 9 out of 10 times, they want to go to another and another. My best bud now is my regular partner at almost every race, show and event and he couldn't point out a spark plug under the hood, name a single tire maker or tell you within 20-years what the age is for most old cars, he just enjoys the sights and sounds of them now on a visceral and artistic level.

Let's cut through all of our guessing, there are probably literally millions of different reasons that car culture is in decline as a whole, so we could not possibly identify and address them all as individuals, but what we can do is get people with a passing interest in cars to become even more interested. Make a conscious effort to do little things that mean a lot to someone who isn't exposed to fun old cars like most of us are. Invite the curious neighbor kid to help you polish the chrome. Take the niece and nephew out for a Sunday drive. Ask them to help you find parts or services online to give them the "upper hand" and a role to play in your restoration. Plant those seeds of passion and see what grows!

[NTX5467]

PASSION!!! That's a great word to use! And a GREAT orientation to share! And, hopefully, we'll have enough knowledge about the brands and types of vehicles we are passionate about to effectively pass that passion to others and get them more passionate about the vehicles THEY like. If things work right, "passion" can be very synergistic in nature, too.

Only thing is . . . there are many things in our respective lives which can put a cap on our vehicular passions, unfortunately. KEY thing is to keep the fires burning until the passions-cap diminishes or vanishes!

Memories and dreams . . . one has happened and the other one NEEDS to happen. EACH of us could have our own "gasoline" operas . . . "The Cars of Our Lives", "As The Tire Turns", or maybe "Swoopy Town"?

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[john2dameron]

BTW: To those who think that you get no benefit from the EPA (i.e. john2dameron). Visit Beijing or at least look at pictures of the city. The EPA is a bargain!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Last edited by 1910_Anon; 11 Hours Ago at 16:30.

If the EPA is faultless, then we should not be importing products from other countries that don't adhere to the same standards we have to adhere to.

[stock_steve]

"The younger generation". Yeah, right.

Unbelievable.

I'm 55 years old. I was "brainwashed" in school in this manner. Everybody who pays any attention to reality knows the environmental impact of automobiles, and the short- and long-term consequences thereof. Just because this science existed when a "younger" person was schooled doesn't mean a d@mn thing, especially when "young" includes people approaching retirement already. Either education and expertise mean something to one, or they don't. It may be that age erodes the perception or appreciation of expertise, but that hardly is the fault of those who are perceptive and appreciative.

The very idea that denial of this aspect of automobile ownership is going to be a mitigation among others is daft. It may be that as an individual it is something that one would ignore/deny. That is often a response to what has been called "an inconvenient truth" in more than just this phenomenon. However to the "brainwashed" even the appearance that real scientific facts are being dismissed is distasteful. It speaks to an unenlightened view on a subject of importance, and drives people away in hoards no matter their age.

It isn't what is taught about cars that is part of the problem, although the negative reaction to it illustrated here certainly is. It is our failure to express what cars meant to our generation and those previous to ours, and what that means to "younger" people. There isn't anyone alive today who can remember an age when seeing the Grand Canyon, the Hamptons, Yellowstone, Yosemite, or even the suburbs was the province of the wealthy. The age when middle-class children only saw grass on special trips to a park has been gone for many generations now. The age when you had to work within walking distance of your home has been over too long to be remembered. When was the last time you heard anyone discuss this aspect of automobiles? Do you think your grandchildren know anything of this?

It is that value to our cars, and the legacy of it with out society today, that is not being taught. Instead of reacting like obsessed spoiled children denying anything wrong with any aspect of something we like, perhaps if we countered the real science (environmental and sociological) about car ownership with real perspective on what personal transportation has meant to society (and will mean in the future as the negative impacts are mitigated) then people might see the import of preserving this legacy and by connection our cars. If we don't, and we continue to waste energy pretending there was never anything wrong about the automobile, then we're no different in many eyes than a racist who pines for "the old days".

I just remembered what I don't miss about threads like this: The Lectures.

[llskis]

In my limited experience of collectible cars in the USA, many seem to be over restored. Nothing like they left the factory. Very few if any, ex factory cars would get 400 points is a USA car show. Why the obsession in the USA for "400 points" is beyond me and others who do not live in the USA

Totally agree as the "over restored" cars where alive and present at the G/N in Moline IL. I don't mind if they over restore their cars but when it effects the

judging is when it crosses the line. I know this since I got my judging sheets back. I like Bloomington Gold standards and judging as they will "deduct" points for over restorations. They are interested in original cars not sure where AACA is heading.-Larry

[Bhigdog]

Totally agree as the "over restored" cars where alive and present at the G/N in Moline IL. I don't mind if they over restore their cars but when it effects the

judging is when it crosses the line. I know this since I got my judging sheets back. I like Bloomington Gold standards and judging as they will "deduct" points for over restorations. They are interested in original cars not sure where AACA is heading.-Larry

The "over restored" or for that matter the "under restored" car parked next to you does not affect, in any way, the score YOUR car is given. When the cars are judged at an AACA meet they are judged solely as a stand alone example. The crappy car next to yours does not mean a higher score for you. Nor does a 400 point car restored to perfection parked next to yours mean a lower score.

If you did not get the award you were seeking don't blame the guy that did........................Bob

[padgett]

All of my cars are "drivers" and believe there are more interesting cars available inexpensively than ever before. Good example is Fieros, only issue is that all convertibles were conversions. The critical "25 year" group is passing through the doldrums of automotive enthusiasm. The were really few interesting cars in the '80s.

Another part of the problem is that the time I spent as a teen playing with cars today is spent playing with TVs and computers. Back then we only had three TV channels.

Also the really good tools have changed but are no more complex, a Tablet reading OBD-2 is easier to use than a Uni-syn or a Sun distributer machine and reblowing a PROM is no more difficult than recurving a distributer or changing jets.

The only real change is it is now more difficult to add an aftermarket radio, you need a bus adapter.

It is nice to be able to read the IAT when adding a CAI and easier than shimming a pumpkin.

Bottom line, kids today have other things to spend their money/time on that are as important to them as cars were to us. The good news is that those who are interested are easier to reach/find than they ever were. The other factor (and the reason the best cars come from the north) is that in Florida we have things to do all year round instead of winters spent in a garage.

Bottom line, today has evolved from yesterday and the yout today have different priorities. Phun thing is that even the nay-sayers here have access to a keyboard 8*).

Edited July 23, 2013 by padgett (see edit history)

[llskis]

The "over restored" or for that matter the "under restored" car parked next to you does not affect, in any way, the score YOUR car is given. When the cars are judged at an AACA meet they are judged solely as a stand alone example. The crappy car next to yours does not mean a higher score for you. Nor does a 400 point car restored to perfection parked next to yours mean a lower score.

If you did not get the award you were seeking don't blame the guy that did........................Bob

Bob: You are correct on your explaination on how the your score comes about--but that's only how it supposed to be done in theory. If you "dangle" 5 over

restored cars in a class and the 6th car is the way it came from the factory-it will get deductions for sure. The judges are only human and will start

comparing cars not your car against an original factory car. This is just my opinion. Let me give you an example what happened to me: They deducted

points for "paint in the trunk". There was "overspray" on the catch part of the trunk. Guess what--It is supposed to be that way according to all the experts

of my particular vehical- we painted it that way purposely. You will not find that on a over restored car. There where more examples of this. Not complaining

at all; had a good time; but lets call a spade a spade. Larry

[Sweepspear]

Gas as we know it today will be regulated out of existence, and therefore fuel won't be available our old cars will be able to use.

It will be so diluted with Ethanol and God knows what else that any car without an engine management system will be rendered immobile.

[avgwarhawk]

Gas as we know it today will be regulated out of existence, and therefore fuel won't be available our old cars will be able to use.

It will be so diluted with Ethanol and God knows what else that any car without an engine management system will be rendered immobile.

Plumb it for natural gas!

Edited July 23, 2013 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

This hobby has attracted many people from all walks of life but few young guys. It seems this hobby is in cruise control with nobody at the wheel to direct this hobby to address problems and threats to it. For example. When was the last time you saw an ad on TV promoting the restoration of vintage cars (not specific cars like mustangs but vintage in general) or trying to recruit new members? That alone can bring this hobby to the public mind and allow a influx of new membership not seen in decades.

We can't make people, young or old, like old cars or restoring them. My wife and brother-in-law don't care about my 54. My other friends and family think it is neat but don't really care. My older brother loves the thing. One out of handful likes the car. What can I say, just ain't their cup of tea.

[Bhigdog]

Larry, I agree with your "only human" to a point. I do believe the judges being "over awed" effect goes away over time and experience. If you were aware of the over spray being "normal" (even if shoddy) it would pay you in the future to preemptively provide documentation of that fact. I over heard a judging captain briefing his team on a certain popular make car before the judging started. He pointed out that the trim alignment on that particular year was terrible and not to be overly picky on it. I'm certain that the properly detailed (restored) cars got no extra credit nor did the factory "close enough" cars get dinged.

When duplicating slap dash work by the factory one always runs the risk of having to argue "it's correct" while others might say it's the way it might have been but that doesn't make it "correct".

Personally I can see both sides of the coin. My choice is to restore the car to the level the designer would have envisioned. Others might prefer duplicating the way it finally left the line, warts and all.

The most important thing is you had a good time. Hopefully you will continue to participate in the hobby and enjoy your car.............Bob

[avgwarhawk]

Larry, I agree with your "only human" to a point. I do believe the judges being "over awed" effect goes away over time and experience. If you were aware of the over spray being "normal" (even if shoddy) it would pay you in the future to preemptively provide documentation of that fact. I over heard a judging captain briefing his team on a certain popular make car before the judging started. He pointed out that the trim alignment on that particular year was terrible and not to be overly picky on it. I'm certain that the properly detailed (restored) cars got no extra credit nor did the factory "close enough" cars get dinged.

When duplicating slap dash work by the factory one always runs the risk of having to argue "it's correct" while others might say it's the way it might have been but that doesn't make it "correct".

Personally I can see both sides of the coin. My choice is to restore the car to the level the designer would have envisioned. Others might prefer duplicating the way it finally left the line, warts and all.

The most important thing is you had a good time. Hopefully you will continue to participate in the hobby and enjoy your car.............Bob

I would have to agree with Bob. There is vision, design and execution. The end result may not be what the designer envisioned. There is an old saying, "Buy a car built on a Wednesday"

[Restorer32]

If you purposely applied overspray to your trunk then you in fact Sir are guilty of over restoration. The factory certainly didn't intend for that overspray to be there and if you duplicated the overspray on another car then you are in fact as guilty of "over restoration" as any Duesenberg restorer out there. The overspray as it came from the factory would be random not "as it's supposed to be".

Bob: You are correct on your explaination on how the your score comes about--but that's only how it supposed to be done in theory. If you "dangle" 5 over

restored cars in a class and the 6th car is the way it came from the factory-it will get deductions for sure. The judges are only human and will start

comparing cars not your car against an original factory car. This is just my opinion. Let me give you an example what happened to me: They deducted

points for "paint in the trunk". There was "overspray" on the catch part of the trunk. Guess what--It is supposed to be that way according to all the experts

of my particular vehical- we painted it that way purposely. You will not find that on a over restored car. There where more examples of this. Not complaining

at all; had a good time; but lets call a spade a spade. Larry

[Pomeroy41144]

Money holds back lots of young people who would like to enter the antique car hobby. My nephew is 23; he likes old cars too, just like his father. My nephew does not own an antique car even though he would love to be in the hobby. What is holding him back? Money. There are no jobs for a lot of these kids. When most of his cash goes for living expenses and getting through school, it is tough to lay down the money for an antique car. Like my nephew, I wanted to be in the antique car hobby when I was 23. Well, nobody gave me anything. I put myself through college and got a degree; my folks didn't give me a dime and I graduated despite them. So, my nephew -like me and my brother - has to concentrate on getting on the right track in life first. My brother and I succeeded. Now we can buy antique cars. Hopefully my nephew will get a good paying job soon and will be able to join us in the hobby. The biggest long term threat to the hobby is the finite supply of fossil fuels. When we are out of gas, it will be for good. Encourage young people to solve the fossil fuel problem for our everyday transportation. Then we can preserve the gasoline for antique automobiles and vintage aircraft.

[llskis]

If you purposely applied overspray to your trunk then you in fact Sir are guilty of over restoration. The factory certainly didn't intend for that overspray to be there and if you duplicated the overspray on another car then you are in fact as guilty of "over restoration" as any Duesenberg restorer out there. The overspray as it came from the factory would be random not "as it's supposed to be".

Restorer32: Thanks for your comments. I guess it is just how everybody interpets original. BTW 99% of my type of car came with the overspray; it's the

way Norwood (GM Plant) painted the car. There was no exceptions. I should know; I bought one brand new. Larry

[llskis]

Larry, I agree with your "only human" to a point. I do believe the judges being "over awed" effect goes away over time and experience. If you were aware of the over spray being "normal" (even if shoddy) it would pay you in the future to preemptively provide documentation of that fact. I over heard a judging captain briefing his team on a certain popular make car before the judging started. He pointed out that the trim alignment on that particular year was terrible and not to be overly picky on it. I'm certain that the properly detailed (restored) cars got no extra credit nor did the factory "close enough" cars get dinged.

When duplicating slap dash work by the factory one always runs the risk of having to argue "it's correct" while others might say it's the way it might have been but that doesn't make it "correct".

Personally I can see both sides of the coin. My choice is to restore the car to the level the designer would have envisioned. Others might prefer duplicating the way it finally left the line, warts and all.

The most important thing is you had a good time. Hopefully you will continue to participate in the hobby and enjoy your car.............Bob

Bhigdog: Thanks for you nice input. I guess it how everybody interpets what is original. All my other clubs like Bloomington Gold and NCRS wants the cars

to look like they came from the factory even with their imperfections. Also the judges do the best they can; they are no experts on every type of car. Not sure

how the problem can be solved.(Perhaps some point deduction for the obvious over restorations) Giving the main judge some preemptive info might help. This could not be done at Moline due to the weather when time becomes

scarce. Thanks-Larry

[stock_steve]

They're all lectures, even if you like what's being said.

Every one of these also eventually blames whoever is the most prominent Democrat for what's wrong with whatever the subject happens to be, which is apparently not just allowed but encouraged under the rules now. It'll be interesting to see who the next bogey man is going to be, and how many things he/she is in charge of destroying.

And eventually someone makes a blanket statement ridiculing intelligence and/or education, although the stigma of attending a public school 40 years ago is a new one.

And then eventually the last post gets deleted and the thread locked. Don't look for this one to be around long. It's a bit like living a Dusty Springfield song ("I've heard it all a million times before....").

Yeah, new people would find this very attractive.

I respect you, your intelligence, and your viewpoints, Dave.

But sometimes I think you should just give it a rest.

Forum moderators I'm sure have their hands full with people far nuttier than us, so I'm not going to make any comments about that scene any more.

Perhaps some day people like us will be able to redirect our anger at the world toward accomplishing positive solutions--that's a goal of mine anyway.

Just my respectful opinions, and I wish you all the best.

Peace.

Edited July 23, 2013 by stock_steve (see edit history)