I need some new files for metal; what to buy? SOLVED!

[Gary_Ash]

In the tool boxes I inherited from my father and grandfather, are a few files of various types, plus ones I've bought over the last 60 years.  Since those from my grandfather were bought 80-100 years ago and not treated well by my father or by me in younger years, it's probably time for some new ones.  With wrenches, screw drivers, and socket sets, you pretty much get what you see in terms of function and their use is intuitive.  Sure, quality can vary.  Files seem more subtle.  There are lots of shapes (flat, half-round, needle, etc.) and different cuts for fast stock removal or smooth finish.  Then there is the current issue about tool quality - is it cut and hardened correctly, will it stay sharp?  How should files be stored - I've always just thrown them in a tool box with other things piled on top, probably not good!  I can see many damaged teeth.

 

So, I want to go buy a new set of files for working on steel, stainless steel, silicon bronze, and aluminum.  These will be for mostly auto work, not jewelry or wood.  What should I buy?  What brands are best quality?  Is Nicholson the answer?  Where to buy for good price?

Edited March 13, 2023 by Gary_Ash (see edit history)

[61polara]

Nicholson files are good quality.  If you can find US made ones they are higher quality than the Brazilian ones.  Nicholson moved all of their production to Brazil several years ago.

[Tom Devoe]

I buy old USA made ones at flea markets if they're in good shape.  Files made today just don't last.  The markets I visit usually have lots of people selling old tools.

[californiamilleghia]

1 hour ago, Tom Devoe said:

I buy old USA made ones at flea markets if they're in good shape.  Files made today just don't last.  The markets I visit usually have lots of people selling old tools.

How do you tell if they are still good when you are at a Flea market ?

Do they just get dull ?  and how do you tell ?

 

Thanks for the info

[1937hd45]

Good ones are stamped Flat Bastard.🙂

[1912Staver]

They do get dull. From time to time I have found new or just like new ones at swap meets for pennies on the dollar. Look at a new file vs a decades old one. The difference should jump out at you.

[Frank DuVal]

3 hours ago, Gary_Ash said:

There are lots of shapes (flat, half-round, needle, etc.) and different cuts for fast stock removal or smooth finish. 

You need them all! Plus the tiny ones, some with diamonds, some with teeth.

 

And don't forget the Vixen file. Get the one that is rigid, with a tang, not flexible, unless you are doing lead work on a car. These files are great for aluminum.

[Bhigdog]

Grobet makes excellent quality files. Expect to pay for what you are getting...........Bob

[1937hd45]

I should do a Google search for a video "How are files made" . 

[MikeC5]

I thought they could be sharpened.  Maybe not economical?  Edit:  a little googling and I found this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRakH7TrE2E

Sure seems worth a try.  I've got a pile of them to test it on...

Edited March 11, 2023 by MikeC5 (see edit history)

[Studemax]

This technique WILL work, but the file the guy in the video was using was STILL dull as hell. Did you hear that high pitched squeal? Dull file. There is a company you can send your files off to who will resharpen them by making the metal soft again, and remaking the teeth from scratch, before rehardening it. It's not cheap. 

 

I am an old tool & die maker, and I buy old files at garage sales and various auctions - don't buy stuff at the pawn shops, etc. that throw them all in a big container rubbing on each other. I probably have more hand files than any other type of hand tool - from sets of needle files and die sinker sets up to big files, rasps, and even vixen files. I store them carefully so they never touch any other file. Nicholson is good stuff, if you can find it. The new stuff is not American made, sad to say.

[Dandy Dave]

8 hours ago, Studemax said:

This technique WILL work, but the file the guy in the video was using was STILL dull as hell. Did you hear that high pitched squeal? Dull file. There is a company you can send your files off to who will resharpen them by making the metal soft again, and remaking the teeth from scratch, before rehardening it. It's not cheap. 

 

I am an old tool & die maker, and I buy old files at garage sales and various auctions - don't buy stuff at the pawn shops, etc. that throw them all in a big container rubbing on each other. I probably have more hand files than any other type of hand tool - from sets of needle files and die sinker sets up to big files, rasps, and even vixen files. I store them carefully so they never touch any other file. Nicholson is good stuff, if you can find it. The new stuff is not American made, sad to say.

The best files I have, have come from old Machinists, and Tool and Die makers.  

[1937McBuick]

I bought a set of Nicholson's about 3 months ago from Acklands Grainger.  Remember that is Canadian dollars.

I couldn't believe how they cut compared to our decades old abused files.

Someone with more welding and metal experience than I'll ever get or have told me not to apply any pressure on the back stroke because it has a tendency to flatten the cutting edge of the teeth.  I obviously never knew how to properly use a metal file.    Maybe they can be compared to a hand saw?  What about cleaning them?   Those flat bastards sure remove alot of material quickly and the milling file less so but leaves a better finish.    They are stored in their own tool box drawer laying in single "file"🙄

[Laughing Coyote]

Look at Pferd. A German product with an American pattern. Not cheap, but good quality.

[zdillinger]

Also, don't forget that files can be resharpened and derusted with acid. There is a company called Boggs Tool that you can mail files to and they will assess and resharpen them if they are salvageable. 

Edited March 11, 2023 by zdillinger (see edit history)

[playswithbrass]

Gary check out the well known auction site,e bay,put in Nicholson file NOS. There are lots of older made in America files for sale.

You can buy by the box if you desire,that is what I do,so you have a separate file for brass,steel etc.

The lowly file should be treated as a perecision tool and not thrown into a drawer full of other files.

[Gary_Ash]

Thanks, all.  I'm learning a lot about files that I didn't hear about in high school shop classes or from car guys over the years. 

 

I did get taught about Vixen files by Wray Schelin at his ProShaper metal working shop. When fine tuning aluminum or steel body work, Wray coats the metal with Dykem or a giant magic marker and very lightly drags a Vixen file over the surface to reveal high and low spots.  Then it's gentle "tink, tink, tink" with a steel slapper and dolly to raise or lower the spots, then more Dykem and Vixen file. Just don't remove too much metal with the file.

 

Wray Schelin with a bent Vixen file finding the low spots.

 

[Studemax]

13 hours ago, zdillinger said:

Also, don't forget that files can be resharpened and derusted with acid. There is a company called Boggs Tool that you can mail files to and they will assess and resharpen them if they are salvageable. 

That is the company I was referencing.

[60FlatTop]

An important tip:

It is important to make sure that the material to be filed is softer than the file - so do not try to file hardened steel with a (hardened steel) file; you will quickly ruin it.

 

I have files going back to my great grandfather. I learned proper filing techniques in High School shop class when I made the obligatory wrought iron lamp. That was the year after the maple cutting board shaped like a pig. I routinely use a file card to clean them. I bought that well over 50 years ago.

 

If I needed a new one I would buy it from Harbor Freight.  The myth of offshore product quality dissolves quickly with a little research and hands on experience.

 

What many people don't do is use a handle on their file. It goes on the tang, rhymes with pain.

[Frank DuVal]

Yes, do not file without a handle. I’ve seen coworkers slide the tang into the wrist when the file grabs the metal. 
 

And yes to no pressure down on the backstroke. It dulls the teeth. I learned that in my UVA machining class (disguised as an early CNC machine class. Paper tape anyone?). 

[64avanti]

Boggs Tool

https://boggstool.com/

I have sent them well over a hundred files, all cuts, multiple brands, etc. They come back as sharp as new, for a fraction of the cost.

 

They sharpen everything you send, then test each file. Files that fail are tang dipped in red paint and returned to you, and are invoiced at a substantial discount, even though most of the time they are still pretty sharp. However, they will reject the file if sent back again.

 

To ship, use a flat rate USPS box. I made a liner out of 1/4" hardboard that is glued and taped together with the top loose, that just drops in the box. I wrap the files in paper to keep them from banging around, pack them in, fill in the gaps with crumpled paper, put the 1/4" lid on, close up and ship. I've done this 3 times successfully. I mark the liner with a Sharpie with my name, address, and a request to return it with the files. Oh, and I clean my files before I send them, removing any material that is clogging the teeth. I don't do anything about rust, as their process takes care of it.

 

They also sharpen carbide and HSS burrs.

 

I can usually find pretty good deals on new files at eBay. Used files are a crap shoot to buy, as they are often too far gone to be sharpened properly; although I would take a chance if they were really cheap, less than $.50 each.

[rocketraider]

4 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

I learned that in my UVA machining class (disguised as an early CNC machine class. Paper tape anyone?). 

The University taught people to work with their hands?

 

My high school guidance counselor (a UVa graduate) is spinning in her grave.

 

If you weren't headed to a big-name four-year school she had little interest in your higher education. If, like me, you had decided on tech school, or worse military, far as she was concerned you didn't exist. She despised CTE (vocational trades then) classes too and worked to undermine those. But we all know CTE keeps modern life functioning.

 

Fifty years later I still shudder to think of the damage she inflicted on her students. She'd have had no idea what files are for, much less their many variations.

[Frank DuVal]

I've never understood that attitude! I still don't and I work with Technicians (non higher ed types) and we joke about engineers. And I are one...My higher education did not make me forget where I came from or who actually builds everything. 👍  My first job as an engineer included 6 months in the warehouse and electric motor repair shop so I could understand what to sell to customers, and what it took to get product out the door. I have always been an in the field, not sit behind a desk engineer. They actually gave me a forklift license at my current job. No other engineer at work is trusted with one.😁

 

My high school guidance counselor was a cousin. I got along fine with her.

 

And another UVa trade school story. A good friend was an Echols Scholar there and went to work with UVa bus service for extra cash. He graduated with an IT degree and a license to drive over the road busses with passengers (whatever that was back in the 70s, chauffeurs?). He got a job driving charter busses and subbing for Greyhound/Trailways until he got an IT job. And then got a CDL to drive snow plows to clear interstates as side work...

 

Keep your files sharp! And your stick on the ice.

 

I use a flattened copper pipe as a tooth cleaning tool. I learned that at UVa too.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[1937McBuick]

52 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said:

I use a flattened copper pipe as a tooth cleaning tool. I learned that at UVa too.

Please explain.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Frank DuVal]

Take a 6 to 8" piece of 1/2 or 3/4" copper pipe. Flatten about 2 or 3 inches of it. Hold it and run the flattened end in line with the teeth of the file. Just like using a card file, but much stronger. You could flatten the whole piece, but the round end is easier to hold. A plastic cap (or tape) over the round end keeps it from hurting your hand if it is a short piece.

 

The copper is soft enough to not dull the teeth.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[kuhner]

Simonds Industries used to make files just up the road from me. They shut down and moved out of country in 2006. Was the old Heller file company, started around the turn of the 20th century.  Lots of folks worked there especially in the 40s.  

[8E45E]

9 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

I've never understood that attitude! I still don't and I work with Technicians (non higher ed types) and we joke about engineers. And I are one...My higher education did not make me forget where I came from or who actually builds everything. 👍  My first job as an engineer included 6 months in the warehouse and electric motor repair shop so I could understand what to sell to customers, and what it took to get product out the door. I have always been an in the field, not sit behind a desk engineer. They actually gave me a forklift license at my current job. No other engineer at work is trusted with one.

I am trying to get our company to do that here with new hirees.  As far as I'm concerned, anyone applying for a job, be it for mechanical engineering, product management position, drafting, etc., must do a mandatory 2-3 month stint in the shop, with hands-on assembly, and some fabrication experience.   That way, one can tell almost immediately if they are truly suited for the job or not.  

 

Of course, Human Resources won't go along with it, as 'its not part of the job description'.

 

Craig

 

 

[rocketraider]

11 hours ago, 1937McBuick said:

Please explain.

 

Thanks in advance.

Found this when I viewed MikeC5's link on file care.

 

Looks like soft steel will make a file cleaning tool same as copper like Frank showed us. Key is a metal soft enough to not damage the file itself, but hard enough to not clog it worse, i.e. no aluminum!

 

You can see where it's cleaning detritus out of the file teeth.

 

 

Now that we're learning how to clean, restore and maintain our files instead of throwing them out and buying new, what are hobbyist knifemakers gonna do for raw materials?😛

[dodge28]

I soaked my files in lemon juice or vapor rust then wash with water and blow dry. There is a limit to every thing in life. I once left a 3 angle 6 inch file in fresh lemon juice and forgot about it for about 3 weeks. All the teeth was gone.  Do not drag your files or jack planes backwards. They cut only on forward strokes. Backwards cause  damage. Slightly lift on backward strokes and forward with light measured pressure . Learn how to use tools properly and they will last a long time. 

[Frank DuVal]

I was taking to the owner of a company that builds large power supplies/transmitters and complimented him on the people he sent to troubleshoot issues after they were installed. He said all people to be hired (engineers, software techs or technicians) get a nut and a bolt and are asked to assemble them behind their back while he asks them questions. There were other equally odd qualifications, but his point was if he sent people into the field they better be able to perform while the customer is staring at them or disturbing them with questions even with their hands deep into transformer oil. 👍

[Dandy Dave]

11 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

Take a 6 to 8" piece of 1/2 or 3/4" copper pipe. Flatten about 2 or 3 inches of it. Hold it and run the flattened end in line with the teeth of the file. Just like using a card file, but much stronger. You could flatten the whole piece, but the round end is easier to hold. A plastic cap (or tape) over the round end keeps it from hurting your hand if it is a short piece.

 

The copper is soft enough to not dull the teeth.

I have a few of these and use them when needed. Definitely a must have item. 

[Gary_Ash]

2 hours ago, rocketraider said:

Now that we're learning how to clean, restore and maintain our files, what are hobbyist knifemakers gonna do for raw materials?😛

Studebaker leaf springs are known to be good for knife making.

 

I just bought a set of nine Nicholson files on Amazon for about $100.  They came in a nice roll-up pouch, so they will get protected in the future.  I'll start with these and add other sizes, shapes, and cuts as I need them.   Thanks for the advice!

 

Years ago, I knew a guy who had apprenticed at the Balzers High Vacuum Co. in Liechtenstein.  He said that when he and others started their apprenticeships, they were all give a lump of steel and a file.  They were instructed to file a perfect cube from the metal:  all edges equal length, all angles exactly 90 degrees.  The challenge was to learn how to do it before the piece of metal got too small.  No cube, no graduation!

 

[60FlatTop]

18 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

(disguised as an early CNC machine class. Paper tape anyone?)

I used CNC turret lathes when you had to manually compensate for tool tip wear on each change of the XY axis. I have a history of technology not meeting my expectations. (cassettes)

 

I also learned how to placed finished product on a pallet so the QC inspector would pick the best part. Sort of like feeding in a card trick.

 

I was in a similar situation to this topic with hammers a few years ago. I started picking from Ebay and now have a very complete set of Estwing  hammers, new or nearly new with firmly attached handles. Except for a few heirlooms they make an impressive row. I did the same thing with Snap On ratcheting box ends both inch and MM. Never paid over $15 each and got them all.

[rocketraider]

47 minutes ago, Gary_Ash said:

 

I just bought a set of nine Nicholson files on Amazon for about $100.  They came in a nice roll-up pouch, so they will get protected in the future.  I'll start with these and add other sizes, shapes, and cuts as I need them.   Thanks for the advice!

Thank you, Gary, for starting such an interesting thread! I think we've all learned something. I'd always thought a file is a file, and when it would no longer cut, get a new one.

[dodge28]

Always keep cutting tools sharp. It takes less effort to cut . Lift the back up a little on the reverse stroke. The cut will be straight and nice. Keep the old junk tools for lending to friends and neighbours.

[Gary_Ash]

2 hours ago, dodge28 said:

Keep the old junk tools for lending to friends and neighbours.

[Studemax]

Gary - you forgot one thing in your story. Tender machinist wanna-be's were also given a machinists square to check their work. It's the basic metalworking skill, and at the end of the day when it's time for inspection to check your parts, they don't care if you used a 5-axis CNC or a file as long as the part matches the print. Not bragging, but after 50 some years I'm pretty damn good at it. Hand files are my favorite hand tool, period.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Studemax (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

No matter what I machine there is always some file work to break sharp edges, and to often touch up a machined piece. It's like a Back Hoe, or Bulldozer operator. He needs a hand shovel and rake to clean up. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

17 hours ago, dodge28 said:

Keep the old junk tools for lending to friends and neighbours.

No matter how far away from your work area you hide those old tools if someone is helping you and you ask for a file, for example, they will be gone for a long time until they manage to find that tool you should have thrown away. In that typical whiny voice they will ask "Don't you have a good file. This is all I could find."

 

Save a broken tip screwdriver to make a drift out of someday and it will be placed in your hand when you reach out from under the car.

[chistech]

Gary, did you try General Supply in New Bedford. I’ve bought some really nice NOS files they have. I also buy and use good farrier files/rasps. They are much less expensive than files purchased at wood and metal working specialty shops. I guess farriers are less willing to spend high dollars on their filing equipment so farrier suppliers keep the costs down.