1940 Buick 6V, straight 8 Struggling to start

[clipperfan]

 I need some help

 

I just bought a 1940 Buick special – the car has the 6V system in it along with the straight 8.

The person I bought it from drove it about 25 miles to my house – saying he was able to get it to 60-65 MPH on the freeway.

While I was able to restart it while it was still hot/warm on the day it arrived, the next day I couldn’t start it – just ran the battery down.  So…

 

I since added new points and condenser set @ .015” and new plugs set at .025” also replaced the wires but still have the old set and may put them back in.

Checked compression – range from 75 to 85 psi – I figure that is ok for this car

There is a working electric fuel pump and confirmed it is sending gas to the carb

Still will not start – not even trying to

 

I did verify the plug wires match the firing order but I could not find the flywheel marker to matchup with the housing mark even when I had the rotor pointing to #1.  confirmed points still @ .015"

By the way, on this car the #1 plug is immediately to the left of distributor clip nearest to the block.  

 

Could use some ideas – car will still not start even after recharging the battery 

Thanks

 

Jim Gilmore

Clipperfan

Edited November 13, 2022 by clipperfan
mis spelled word and clarified distributor clip location (see edit history)

[NailheadBob]

Check to see if gas is getting to carburetor, and with ignition key OFF, can you see it squirt gasoline looking down inside carburetor when you move throttle lever?

 

Is choke going closed when engine cold and you move throttle linkage?

 

Are the spark plug wires installed in correct firing order sequence?

 

Just some things to look at

 

Bob

[trimacar]

My guess is you have an old battery, and possibly 12 volt (small) cables.  It’s doing all it can to turn over engine and little juice left for coil.

 

Make sure you have a good battery.  Make sure you have the thick 6 volt battery cables.  Last, run a ground directly to the starter, usually a mounting bolt.

 

Good luck!

[Matt Harwood]

What are the symptoms? Simply a slow/no crank? Then Trimacar's advice about tuning up the electrical system would be wise. In fact, getting the grounds in shape is a good idea no matter what.

 

Second, if it cranks well, are you positive that you have spark during cranking? Pull a plug wire and hold it close to the block while cranking and look for the spark. If not, investigate the ignition system.

If you have spark, check the things Bob mentions, above. Even though fuel is being pumped, is it getting into the carb and into the engine? If you have spark, perhaps prime the carburetor with a tablespoon of gas (or starter fluid) and see if it'll fire. Then you'll know if it's a fuel delivery problem. Check the carb float to make sure it's not stuck (rap on the fuel bowl with a screwdriver handle to perhaps knock it loose), make sure your lines are free of obstructions, and that the fuel pump is pumping at cranking speeds, not just running speed.

My guess is that the seller knew a trick to starting it (most likely using starting fluid) to get around this problem. Although he'll probably play stupid, it might be worth a call to him to see what he knows. If I had to guess, I'd say the fuel pump is weak or the carburetor has issues. 

 

Eliminate each potential point of failure and you'll narrow down where to focus your efforts.

[clipperfan]

Hi

All great suggestions that I'll follow up on them all - thanks all

I don't see gas squirting in the carb so there's that (already ordered a carb rebuild kit)

Think I Do need a new battery and I'll get bigger cables - ground is bolted to frame near the radiator 

Again thanks

Jim

 

[Oldtech]

Don't know what part of the continent you are on, but up here in the cold a non working choke will cause your problem.

[g-g-g0]

Likely will be unable to find heavy 6 volt cables at local box stores or NAPA. You can have them made up possibly locally or order them from Bobs Automobilia, C.A.R.S. Buick parts or Fusick. I believe the recommended size is double ought (00). Make sure all connections are CLEAN!

[Frank DuVal]

Still the normal turn ignition to ON and step on accelerator?

 

One "is it gas?" trick is to remove the air cleaner and drop a teaspoon of gasoline into the throat of the carburetor. Then replace the air cleaner and try starting the car.

[Tom Boehm]

These tips have been mentioned above but they are worth repeating. On a 6 volt system make sure all the battery cable and ground strap connections are free of rust and paint. It helps a lot to have the proper thickness of battery cable also. These may or may not be your immediate problem but these tips will help your starter spin faster and start the car faster. I think it helped on my car to clean off the paint and rust on the faces between the starter and the bell housing. And the bolts too. 

[Larry Schramm]

Would you post some pictures of the cables at the battery & at the starter?  That will help us help you.

[trimacar]

2 hours ago, clipperfan said:

Hi

All great suggestions that I'll follow up on them all - thanks all

I don't see gas squirting in the carb so there's that (already ordered a carb rebuild kit)

Think I Do need a new battery and I'll get bigger cables - ground is bolted to frame near the radiator 

Again thanks

Jim

 

Well, here’s my take on this. When cars were new, grounding anywhere on the frame was great.  Nice new metal, and even at riveted frame members mating, nice clean surface to transmit battery juice.

 

Now, 80 years later, a lot of corrosion between that shiny new metal, and the path for electricity isn’t there.

 

Think of yourself as a unit of energy, what are obstacles to get where you want to be?  Rust, separation of joints, paint which someone added…OK off my soapbox..

 

[Bloo]

Also, for the starter, the circuit is a circular path from the battery to the starter (hot side) and back (through the grounds). Follow the path.

 

If you have a car that grounds the battery to the frame, and it sounds like you do, there needs to be a third battery cable (or strap) from the frame to the engine/transmission assembly. Is it there? Look for it and see if you can find it. It absolutely needs to be as good as the other 2 cables and the connections need to be as clean. The same current flows through it.

 

IF you need cables or straps, and your regular parts store does not have oversize cables and straps for 6 volt vehicles, look at a store that sells stuff for tractors. They will have some. There are a lot of 6 volt tractors still in daily use.

 

Welcome to the forum!
 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[clipperfan]

Wow!!! Lots of great suggestions -going forward with a new battery and better, thicker cables.

Tried to start it again and it finally started when I took my finger off the starter button not while it actually turning over- proof in my mind the fellows who mentioned the starter was taking all the juice were right!

Will clean all the cable attachments and will go with 00 or 0000 cables.

Still going to rebuild the carb ( Next week's project)

I'm very impressed with this forum - thank you everyone

Jim

[clipperfan]

2 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

Would you post some pictures of the cables at the battery & at the starter?  That will help us help you.

I'll take some shots and post them.

The red positive cable to the starter is probably a 12V one and does get warm when the engine is cranking 

Thanks

Jim

[Oldtech]

The start when you release the starter trick indicates weak spark, and a battery cable getting warm when the other doesn't is a sure sign of a problem with it. Looks like you are on the right track.

[kgreen]

The ground for this car was originally attached to the engine as shown here:

[Bloo]

Then there is the answer. Put it back like that. It is a more direct route for the starter current and there is no third cable.

 

The body and or frame are probably grounded/strapped somewhere, or should be, but those grounds can be smaller when there is no starter current through them.

[Larry Schramm]

Be sure to clean any paint or corrosion off the block before attaching the ground cable.

[rocketraider]

8 hours ago, kgreen said:

The ground for this car was originally attached to the engine as shown here:

Also notice the size of those battery cables. Big as or bigger than your index finger is a good rule of thumb for 6v systems.

 

Would a flat braided ground strap also work on the above Buick?

[Bloo]

I don't know why not, as long as it was a nice big strap. A lot of 6 volt cars used them originally.

[clipperfan]

7 hours ago, rocketraider said:

Also notice the size of those battery cables. Big as or bigger than your index finger is a good rule of thumb for 6v systems.

 

Would a flat braided ground strap also work on the above Buick?

I ordered 00 cables hope that's big enough

[Frank DuVal]

That is.

[edinmass]

I guess I’m not normal. Instead of throwing parts at the car and guessing what’s wrong with it, I would diagnose it. I understand the owner is new, and probably not familiar with pre war cars……..but the approach to servicing a car new or old is basically the same for over 100 years. 

[37_Roadmaster_C]

@edinmass, I think the OP IS diagnosing the problems with the suggestions from the members.  He has confirmed small battery cable problems and is replacing with large cables.  He did diagnose carb accelerator pump failure and is rebuilding the carb to repair that problem.  The only thing not addressed is the grounding of the starter directly. The OP said the battery grounded to the frame. Others here said there  should be a ground cable from frame to motor or the battery ground should be attached to the motor and then a ground cable from motor to frame.  In any case, diagnosis IS being done and failures addressed properly.  Is this not how people learn about new subjects? Hmmmmm......

[edinmass]

37………without wanting to drag the op through the mud……….from the first posting it started off points & condenser, wires, and not turning over………. is what made me make my comment. I understand new people need help, and am certainly glad that many people try and help. Load testing the battery, checking for amperage draw at the starter, power drop to the coil, load testing the coil, timing, ect………..it’s a step by step process and things should be proven good or bad and not just changing things because the “look” small or something of the sort. Battery cables are always suspect……but the starter should be rebuilt and at the minimum gone through checking bushings, bearings, brushes, springs, and field coils and armature should all be tested. I give him credit for the compression test early on. Maybe we should as a group make a “master list” page of a cars systems and how to go through them step by step so there is something we can point new people to develop a baseline. Too often carburetors get “kits” but no actual mechanical pumps are inspected/tested. Electric pumps are powered on at the ignition circuit which is nothing but a disaster, ect.

Its just as important to document everything for your records. The placement comment of the ground strap was well done, as were the comments of it being clean…….but a draw test should also be done. I usually install one or two extra ground straps on every car I service. Transmission to frame, engine to frame, and body to frame……..obviously not on show cars but every driver should have them. On new total restorations I make a ground harness and add it to the car as modern fresh paint causes unending ground issues with so many components. We haven’t even tossed in so many other systems and components. Cooling, brakes, suspension,  steering………a logical progression is also important. Personally, any new car I want to do a compression check and oil pressure check before committing to any other items………why dig in if you have “project killers” to deal with. There is also an obvious downfall to posting and getting advice from a dozen people………….while all mean well it’s common to have what is referred to as “armchair mechanics” people who mean well but have never spun a wrench. Anyways…..it’s all good on this particular thread. And of course there are ten different ways to get to a correct result on any particular problem. I would be nice if the op put up some photos………as it gives a good indication of where and with what he is actually starting out with…….ie: barn find, old res, or a show car. All good…..👍

Edited November 15, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Most, if not all, times it is simpler than that, Ed.   From the first,  LARGER, CLEANER , battery cables would have "fixed"  OPs problem.  Your way is PROBABLY the proper way on the higher end cars you work on.  Probably not needed on everything.  My .02  

 

  Ben

[Pete O]

On 11/13/2022 at 3:00 PM, clipperfan said:

 I need some help

 

I just bought a 1940 Buick special – the car has the 6V system in it along with the straight 8.

The person I bought it from drove it about 25 miles to my house – saying he was able to get it to 60-65 MPH on the freeway.

While I was able to restart it while it was still hot/warm on the day it arrived, the next day I couldn’t start it – just ran the battery down.  So…

 

I since added new points and condenser set @ .015” and new plugs set at .025” also replaced the wires but still have the old set and may put them back in.

Checked compression – range from 75 to 85 psi – I figure that is ok for this car

There is a working electric fuel pump and confirmed it is sending gas to the carb

Still will not start – not even trying to

 

I did verify the plug wires match the firing order but I could not find the flywheel marker to matchup with the housing mark even when I had the rotor pointing to #1.  confirmed points still @ .015"

By the way, on this car the #1 plug is immediately to the left of distributor clip nearest to the block.  

 

Could use some ideas – car will still not start even after recharging the battery 

Thanks

 

Jim Gilmore

Clipperfan

Two comments:  the mark on the flywheel is very faint and hard to see through that window on the bell housing.  Get a really bright flashlight and some chalk.  Also your reference to the #1 plug is to it's position on the distributor cap, right?   The actual cylinders are numbered 1 to 8 front to back.

[37_Roadmaster_C]

This is a bit of a hijack, but I needed to say it here.........

 

@edinmass,  I understand and agree 100% with what you say, with a small exception.  Most people starting in this hobby are not professional mechanics (especially for old iron). nor do they have the test equipment needed to do the tests you mention. Also, most do not have the cash reserves that would be needed to have these things done by a professional.  In a perfect world, everything you said would be done in a specific order with the equipment required to do it properly.  I do not promote the "shotgun" approach to automotive repair, be it modern or antique vehicles, but some things are fairly standard issues and the price of the parts is fairly low. If the labor is the owner and/or friends doing the work it is really an acceptable option...In my opinion.

   I am not really critical of what you said, but I still feel the OP was not running wild in the parts store 😇.  As for electric fuel pumps and just stuffing in a carb kit to solve fuel problems, I am 100% in agreement with you. BAD BAD BAD idea!!!!! I also agree about electrical grounds. Every connection point MUST be clean and tight. Extra ground straps are also a must as old cars ALL have rust and/or other poor electrical conductivity issues throughout the mechanical joints in the body, frame and so on. Paint on a new restoration is even worse. Yes, grounds are a bugger and then some!!

   I really like your idea about creating an orderly list of the approach to troubleshooting various systems. I am best with electrical as I am retired out of the electronics and high power broadcast industries. I think many members and especially people new to the hobby would benefit from this as it creates order from chaos.

   I also want to thank YOU for everything you do to help people keep this hobby alive!!!  We are loosing knowledgeable people faster than we can teach new ones.  Have a shot for me and PLEASE keep passing along what you know!! 

Edited November 15, 2022 by 37_Roadmaster_C (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

With the exception of pulling the pan & cleaning the gunk out it and putting fresh fluids in the vehicle which includes the fuel system.  The best thing to do is the above and try to get the vehicle running.  See if it will start & run.

 

@edinmass has made it clear along with a lot of us is that if you start shot gun parts replacement and it does not start it could take a lot of time to figure out what the problem is.  Usually best and easier to change one or two parts at a time to improve performance.

[Matt Harwood]

I try to work from the "most likely" to the "least likely" causes of a problem. Sometimes it's the obvious thing, but usually it's not and you have to go a few steps down the road. If your car is struggling to start, then battery cables and grounds is a good place to start and is the "most likely" source of the problem. It's also good to do regardless of whether it is the actual problem. If that doesn't work, the work down the chain to the next most likely issue, maybe the starter itself and the bushings inside. After that, maybe it's a ghost in the wiring, a bad switch, corrosion, or something really weird.

 

It's not quite a scattershot way to do it, and it's obviously less precise than Ed's techniques. However, I have found that putting your hands on all the parts of a system--and all the systems on a car--you end up with a car that's reliable and ready to enjoy. Even if what you do at each individual step doesn't solve the problem, eventually you'll find it and along the way everything will be improved. I understand that a professional mechanic working on a clock can't afford to do it this way, but for hobbyists, myself in particular, I like the reassurance of knowing that there aren't any ticking bombs even if it ends up being a bit more work in the long run.

 

And I should also point out that overlooking the easiest, most obvious stuff is a frequent problem. My 1950 Chevy tow truck wasn't charging. I double-checked the new wiring harness and connections, replaced the battery, polarized the generator, replaced the ammeter, and even replaced the regulator. Nothing. The problem? The fan belt was loose. Sometimes the stupid stuff almost seems too stupid to be the problem. I don't often get an easy win like that, but I'll take it when I get it. The trick is remembering to start with the very most basic stuff.

[carbking]

Just saw this thread, and read the entire thread, but did not see an answer to one question:

 

How old is the fuel in the tank?

 

OP mentioned the engine could be restarted hot, but not after cooling.

 

Fuel that is 2 months old may experience difficulty firing a cold engine, even a more modern engine with 12 volt electrics and higher compression. Once the engine is hot, the old fuel will fire.

 

A learned rocket scientist once commented that one test is worth one thousand expert opinions. Like Ed, I firmly believe in testing, and would have tested for old fuel before rebuilding the carburetor (although I know an excellent source for carburetor rebuilding kits  ).

 

Very simple test: simply fill the carburetor with fresh fuel, pump the throttle maybe three times, replace the fuel squirted in the carb, CLOSE THE CHOKE BUTTERFLY, and attempt to start the engine.

 

Jon

Edited November 15, 2022 by carbking (see edit history)

[clipperfan]

Wow

I can't believe the number of great responses 

current status is I replaced the battery with the about 675 cold cranking amps -original battery had 575 cold cranking amps,

Tried to start - turns but still won't go but the positive cable to the starter got hot not just warm

still waiting for the bigger cables and just received this morning the carb rebuild kit.

I'll put the cables in, clean the attachment point and the ground will go to the engine like that great picture with a long battery and I'll post some pictures along with the result!!

Again thanks guys

Jim 

Clipperfan65

Edited November 16, 2022 by clipperfan
mis spelled cold, added some clarification (see edit history)

[JACK M]

58 minutes ago, clipperfan said:

the positive cable to the starter got hot not just warm

 

[rocketraider]

1 hour ago, clipperfan said:

Tried to start - turns but still won't go but the positive cable to the starter got hot not just warm

still waiting for the bigger cables

If it still does that after your 00 cables are installed might be time to go thru the starter- especially if unsure when it might have last been serviced.

 

If you don't do the starter yourself, any good auto electric shop can inspect, clean and rebuild what's needed. A shop that does a lot of farm equipment will be the guys to send it to. Plenty of 6 and 8v tractors are still working for a living.

[kgreen]

I got into a starter that sat for about 30 years and the grease had dried, which would bind the starter.  A good cleaning with mineral spirits and a light oiling and it turned great.  That ended the loss of energy needed to turn the starter.  There are a couple other benefits of cleaning up your starter solenoid to reduce loss through poor connections.  

 

For the electrical system, start at the plugs as suggested above.  Got spark?  Here's a weird one that happened to me.  The rotor contact had been pushed down far enough that it did not make contact with the distributor cap.  Found that by working backwards through the system.  

 

Next on to the carb - you cant get better advice than from carbking.

[clipperfan]

Update

Got the carb rebuild kit yesterday and downloaded rebuild instructions - next week's project.

If the cable arrives today, I'll install them, clean the attachment points on the starter, move the ground to the engine at the coil mount.

At which point I'll try to start it and report results

otherwise the cables may be next week's project as well since I will be out of town until Sunday night

[clipperfan]

Let me know if more engine compartment shots would be helpful - if so I'll post them

Jim

[Matt Harwood]

Wouldn't hurt to get a correct battery that fits in the tray as well as a proper hold-down bracket. Group 3E or 3EE or 3ET, should be available from any auto parts store. It'll have 700+ cold cranking amps rather than the 525 that little battery has. Or better yet, an Optima red top 6V battery will really kick it over with vigor. That little battery is probably part of the problem.

 

 

 

[clipperfan]

Thanks Matt

I replaced the battery shown with a stronger 675 cold cranking version - still not a big as the original that's for sure - my next battery will be a long one!  Hoping the cables will be the difference.

Jim

[EmTee]

What is the Ford starter solenoid connected to?