rocketraider Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 Good catch. If it's a 12v solenoid it's undoubtedly contributing to the problem. I'm trying to figure the need for a remote solenoid on this Buick straight Eight. You wouldn't think the factory style starter mounted solenoid would get too hot to work reliably. Did 1940 Buick incorporate the gas pedal starter switch? If so, doing away with that (for whatever reason) is the only reason I can see the Ford solenoid would be there. Does the Buick have a starter pushbutton on the dash that doesn't look "original"? Clipperfan, I think you need a good accurate wiring diagram so you can see how it SHOULD be vs what 82 years worth of owners have turned it into. These cars started reliably on 6v then, and with starter, ignition and wiring in spec there's no reason they shouldn't now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 (edited) The Ford solenoid is not in the current path for the starter motor, so it would either work or not work. In other words, it couldn't really be the cause of slow cranking. Not sure about 1940, and I second @rocketraider idea that we need to see a wiring diagram. I can say this, on mid 30s Buicks the solenoid is not driven directly by the autostart stuff. On 1937-38 and possibly some other years, there is a little relay hanging on the back of the solenoid. I have also seen some solenoids that incorporate the relay into an odd shaped housing (trapezoid?) at the back of the solenoid. On this car the little relay, in either form, is not present, and I think it probably should be. On an autostart system, power is provided to trigger the relay by the throttle and vacuum switches, and the ground to trigger the relay is provided by the charging system. Maybe they replaced that little relay with the Ford solenoid, but since the ground on those Ford style solenoids is usually the bracket, and it is not insulated from the car's body in the picture, I think it is more likely that autostart is removed, and the yellow wire brings 6V from a starter button. Anybody got a 1940 wiring diagram? Edited November 18, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37_Roadmaster_C Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 2 hours ago, rocketraider said: Did 1940 Buick incorporate the gas pedal starter switch? If so, doing away with that (for whatever reason) is the only reason I can see the Ford solenoid would be there. Does the Buick have a starter pushbutton on the dash that doesn't look "original"? Clipperfan, I think you need a good accurate wiring diagram so you can see how it SHOULD be vs what 82 years worth of owners have turned it into. These cars started reliably on 6v then, and with starter, ignition and wiring in spec there's no reason they shouldn't now. Just for general information... All Buicks from I think 1936 through 1960 had the throttle start. Maybe someone can confirm the 1936 start year. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgreen Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 Maybe the Ford solenoid is replacing the solenoid relay on the starter? My '38 uses the same relay and there are specs in the shop manual for setting the open contact gap (0.025" ~ 0.045" I think...) and coil-to-contact arm air gap (~0.012"). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clipperfan Posted November 18, 2022 Author Share Posted November 18, 2022 EmTee is right ...that solenoid looks like it came from mu son's '66 Mustang - I have no idea exactly what it's connected to but I was able to crank the engine with a starter button connected to the middle terminal I'm heading out of town shortly but will trace wires when I get back Sunday or Monday - by then the new cables will be here. Have a nice weekend! Jim 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critterpainter Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 Is that an electric fuel pump bolted to the side of the engine? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 Bolted? Hanging from the rubber hoses it is. Mechanical pump is not in the fuel circuit now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 3 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said: Bolted? Hanging from the rubber hoses it is. Mechanical pump is not in the fuel circuit now. Oh snap, I didn't see that. And it's powered from the coil! That's going to cause all kinds of hard-starting mischief as it steals power from the ignition system. Strongly recommend you address the rubber hoses, properly mount the electric pump, get the mechanical pump working, and power the electric pump from a source that isn't tied to the ignition. Those are all failure points just waiting for Murphy to show up and work his mischief. 7 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 Sure wish I was there to help!! I believe we could have this bugger starting in a short. That picture is enlightening. Ben 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 I will almost be willing to lay money against those cheap homemade battery cables. At least they are clean and probably fairly new. But that clamping system at the battery post is VERY OFTEN problematic. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketraider Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 The red + cable is definitely a 12v cable and a big contributor to this Buick's starting problems, along with the electric fuel pump stealing voltage from the coil. I never liked those type battery cable ends either but I've used them in a pinch. Replaced plenty of battery cables on newly acquired cars to get shet of them too. I think once clipperfan gets the wiring sorted out and cleaned up this Burick will start eagerly. Even if he doesn't put the gas pedal start feature back and keeps the Ford remote solenoid start, some wiring cleanup will certainly help. But with the Buick gas pedal starter knowledge here on the Forums, would be great to see it put back as it's supposed to be! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clipperfan Posted November 19, 2022 Author Share Posted November 19, 2022 OK - good observations by all... Will secure the electric fuel pump somewhere and power it from another source - probably the '66 Mustang solenoid for now I'll rebuild the mechanical fuel pump eventually New cables are highest priority right now! Thanks all for your input - never thought I would get such great response from such knowledgeable folks I joined BCA and I think AACA is next! Best Jim Clipperfan 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clipperfan Posted November 19, 2022 Author Share Posted November 19, 2022 So This car had a gas pedal start feature? And that was the reason the Mustang solenoid was installed? Didn't know that My 1st car '55 buick had that feature. Jim 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37_Roadmaster_C Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 @clipperfan, you will need to chase down the wiring to that Ford solenoid to confirm its operation. There is NO reason that would be needed to bypass the throttle start operation. It may be that the previous owner added it because they did not understand how the autostart worked. It can be done with an extra relay/solenoid, but it just adds more confusion and failure points. My 37 Roadmaster has a pushbutton start switch and there is nothing added to make it work, just a little modification to the wiring. When I get done with the restoration she will have the autostart back working. Nothing makes people wonder when the car starts while both of your hands are on the wheel 🤣. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 They could have just used the relay from the autostart, unless it was bad. In fact they COULD have used no relay at all, as an aftermarket starter button can probably handle enough current to kick the solenoid directly, but you would have to send 6v from the button. You could get that inside the car from the battery side of the ammeter. They may be sending 6v from the button anyway depending on how that "Ford" solenoid is wired internally. In fact, they probably are. A better design would be to use a relay with a floating coil, like the original missing Buick relay, or a DIN relay (with terminals 85 and 86). In that case, 6v could be had right at the solenoid, and the starter button would provide the ground. That way the worst thing that can happen if a wire gets cut and shorts out is the starter starts cranking. Some factory starter buttons are wired this way. A Buick would have had autostart originally though, no doubt about that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pont35cpe Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 (edited) The solenoid that`s on top of the starter looks incorrect for a `40 Buick, should have this type for the original throttle start. Edited November 21, 2022 by pont35cpe (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 The ONLY thing needed to "modify" the accelerator start function is a switch, pushbutton or otherwise. The original switch is mounted on the carburetor. The two wires [ actually one, separated and going to each side of the switch ] are simply removed from the carb switch and connected to the pushbutton. It is a simple system that seems to befuddle a lot of folks. Ben 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 My guess is the Ford solenoid is being used to replace the original starter relay that is inside the box in front of the original-style solenoid assembly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 Yep. And likely works well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 5 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: The ONLY thing needed to "modify" the accelerator start function is a switch, pushbutton or otherwise. The original switch is mounted on the carburetor. The two wires [ actually one, separated and going to each side of the switch ] are simply removed from the carb switch and connected to the pushbutton. It is a simple system that seems to befuddle a lot of folks. Ben This is how my Limited was configured when I bought it. I returned it to foot pedal switch operation and found that it was considerably harder to start (it likes to start with a closed throttle but the foot pedal obviously makes it go WOT). I put it back to the pushbutton and it's happy again. The pushbutton switch isn't necessarily a bad thing and I think it should be pretty far down on the "to do" list for this particular car. Battery cables, battery, fuel pump(s), fuel lines, and the carb rebuild should be your priorities right now. Once it's healthy and running safely and reliably, then you can figure out whether you want to restore the starting system to stock configuration. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clipperfan Posted November 21, 2022 Author Share Posted November 21, 2022 Hi Guys Update I promised... Got the new cables and installed them - glad I got 00's and not 0000's because these were stiff enough. anyway - temporary connected the fuel pump to the battery -so it was not connected to the coil and was running (making noise) while I pressed the starter button on the dash Result -starter spinned much faster - and the positive cable didn't get warm but the engine still didn't run bigger cables a good thing but not the issue Added some photos guess I'm headed to the carb now BTW need to find a power source that turns on with the dash switch (ford solenoid won't work for that) but the 80 year old wires are hard to figure - can't see the color tracings on lots of frayed wires - even sent a photo for an example Going to go through the thread and try some carb stuff - as I prepare for the holidays Thanks again - we will get there! clipperfan Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clipperfan Posted November 21, 2022 Author Share Posted November 21, 2022 The wires are a mess right now but I'll clean it up once it gets started Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 Before you dive into the carb make sure you have good spark. Take the wire out of the center of the distributor, stick a screwdriver with an insulated handle in the end and hold it near a ground (like a bolt head), and have someone run the starter. You should get at least a 1/4 inch spark regularly between the driver and the ground. more is better. if you don't get tat you need to fix that first. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said: (it likes to start with a closed throttle but the foot pedal obviously makes it go WOT) Switch should engage with slight press of accelerator. No where near WOT. 35 minutes ago, Oldtech said: Before you dive into the carb make sure you have good spark. YES! Do this test first. Then look to see if gasoline sprays into the venturi when you pull on the accelerator rod (ignition off, but after it has been on a few seconds to run the electric fuel pump*). One of these tests should fail. *Does the electric fuel pump change sound as it fills the float bowl? They usually change sound as fuel develops pressure. Edited November 21, 2022 by Frank DuVal (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 On 11/18/2022 at 1:34 PM, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: Sure wish I was there to help!! I believe we could have this bugger starting in a short. That picture is enlightening. Ben I agree....the photo explains a bunch.........its ten accumulated issues all adding up to what appears to be one issue. Sorting........is what the car needs. Not money, just time and craftsmanship. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 7 hours ago, clipperfan said: The wires are a mess right now but I'll clean it up once it gets started Jim Where are you located? Hopefully we can find an experienced Pre-War Buick guy near you who can help you. If not, First, I would temporarily set up the electric fuel pump on a separate toggle switch so you can turn it on and run it about 30 seconds or so until you hear the sound change (when the fuel has been pumped all the way to the carburetor and starts to build pressure), before you attempt to start the car. Second, If it does not start when you know you have fuel to the carburetor, I would test for spark at the plugs as has been mentioned eariler in this discussion. If you have fuel to the carburetor and you have tested to confirm that you have spark, if it does not start, THEN I would try a carburetor rebuild. If you don't have spark, the coil, condenser, and rotor button are the first three things that need to be checked. It is not difficult to fix what is wrong with this car but you are better off using a systematic diagnostic method instead of just changing parts trying to see what fixes it. For example, I once did a tuneup on a 1937 Buick and turned it into a car that would not start. I had installed a new condenser. The new condenser was defective. Quality of reproduction foreign sourced ignition condensers is a real problem on Pre-War Buicks. As soon as I reinstalled the old condenser, the car was back to running condition. Eventually, you are going to need to buy the correct size battery for the car. The one you have now, will probably work OK for now, but is undersized for the car. A lot of the wiring that looks so bad is not going to cause you a problem at the moment. For example, the headlight wiring will not cause any problem as long as the headlight switch is off, no power is sent to that wiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clipperfan Posted November 22, 2022 Author Share Posted November 22, 2022 Hi Matthew I will do the spark test this morning and I was planning to rebuild the carb this afternoon after my final work call at 3pm (work from home part time since retiring) - need to get this thing started -all sorts of family will be arriving for Thankgiving tommorow and they need to see it in action! I've already checked the spark when it did run after putting in new points, condenser, rotor and distributor and plugs and wires- strong but I never actually checked while just cranking. I took the fuel pump wire off the coil after changing the battery cables and clipped it to the battery- They sent me the wrong spark plug wires - they will work but I wanted the angled spark plug version -will change that later lights work generally even front turn signals - need to fix the trunk mounted turn signals Live in Newbury Park, CA - Thousand Oaks is the main town near me 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 I’m impressed with your get it done attitude on this car. I might be inclined to have a few words with the seller of the vehicle over the “as received” condition of it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clipperfan Posted November 22, 2022 Author Share Posted November 22, 2022 Thanks Terry - comment noted! I'm looking at it as a learning experience - I'm in the process of recharging the battery yet again and took off the air filter - And I will run the fuel pump until I hear it's sound change - I'll do that before taking the carb apart - by the way it looks like they removed the choke spring mechanism and it connected manually to the dash lever called "throttle" when pulled the choke plate closes - so it is effectively a manual choke Today will be a good day! Jim 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clipperfan Posted November 22, 2022 Author Share Posted November 22, 2022 Ok -latest update I attached the fuel pump to the battery (again not to the coil) and let it run - the noise did get a little lower but never gone even after a minute or so - plus I could feel the pulsations in the rubber hose section just north of the pump -I kept the pump going as we went to the cranking... Tried to check the spark during cranking and I used an inline spark checker attached to a random spark plug - #4 during cranking my son said the "spark" was almost hard to see - so we switched places so I can see what he was seeing - when he cranked the engine he was right ---barely detectable spark but the car tried to start once or twice and when it did the spark got extremely bright like what I saw when it was running a while ago. So maybe I can hold off on the carb rebuild Coil issue? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 (edited) The sound should change on the electric fuel pump when the pump has pumped fuel all the way to the carb, but the sound should not stop as long as the electric fuel pump is running. If you installed all of those other ignition parts but not a coil, you might try a new coil. If it does not run after that, I would take out the new condenser and put the old one back in it and try again. Other than that, I would check to see if the points are set properly. If you don't figure it out, send me a private message and I can give you the contact information of a 36-38 Buick Club member who is in Los Angeles. He might be able to help you as he is relatively close to you. Edited November 22, 2022 by MCHinson (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clipperfan Posted November 22, 2022 Author Share Posted November 22, 2022 At this point I think I will reinstall the original condenser and verify the points look OK - it appears the rotor, cap, wires and plugs are ok will also clean and reattach the distributor to coil wire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 Before you get too far, maybe try something else. A couple things you have said are interesting. " when it tried to start, it got extremally bright" and early on I believe you mentioned it started when you "took my finger off the starter button". Classic indicators of not enough VOLTAGE to the coil. Just for shits and giggles. using a jumper wire from the battery positive directly to the coil + post, give it a try. Hot wiring, if you will. If it starts, this jumper will have to be removed to shut it down. Ben 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketraider Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 Curious if this Buick uses a ballast resistor? Or a resistance wire for the points? Wouldn't think so but never hurts to look. Either a faulty resistor or weak coil is suspect here. Possibly some corrosion or pitting on the starter pushbutton. We're getting closer to making this ornery Buick start and run like a Buick should! Once we've cleared away all the POS detritus, anyway. 82 years worth of Previous Owner's Stamp.🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clipperfan Posted November 22, 2022 Author Share Posted November 22, 2022 New Update Replaced the condenser with the old one and in the process found the wire from the points to the side coil connection was frayed to the point of a single strand holding on which broke with a tiny tug! Replaced that and reset the points (.015" is pretty hard to see) then I reattached the positive pump wire to the battery (quieter now than earlier) and it started right up immediately. Shut it down and it restarted immediately. I waited an hour before sending this note and it continued to start right up!! Thanks so much - you guys are the best!! Jim Clipperfan65 10 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clipperfan Posted November 22, 2022 Author Share Posted November 22, 2022 I didn't see the previous 2 posts while I was excited to send mine! but thanks!! Jim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NailheadBob Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 28 minutes ago, clipperfan said: I didn't see the previous 2 posts while I was excited to send mine! but thanks!! Jim Now you will able to show and drive your holiday guests in your new/old car, OH Happy Days Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clipperfan Posted November 22, 2022 Author Share Posted November 22, 2022 Thanks Bob I am so excited to show it off - I knew today would be a good one! BTW I see you have a 2014 Buick with a stick - cool -my daily driver is a 2014 Mustang GT with a stick! Love it! Jim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37_Roadmaster_C Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 @clipperfan, The wire you replaced in the distributor is a bit special and needs to be replaced with proper wire for long term best results. The breaker plate in the distributor moves with the vacuum advance and continuously flexes that wire and if not proper it will break. Check other forum posts for more details and where to get one. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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