Accuracy in the histories of antique automobiles

[Steve Moskowitz]

I think the esteemed Mr. Minnie has hit the nail on the head.  Several of my cars were extremely rare with only two known to exist.  In my efforts to secure factual data it became ALMOST impossible which led to research for years before I could restore the cars.  Years later I found more information, fortunately it did not change my view on our restoration efforts.  Those that opine on very early cars and are adamant that "this was the ONLY way they came" are walking down a path that may not be correct.  All we can do today is try to find the best historical information, particularly "factory" literature to make our decisions.

 

The one area I have first hand experience is with the cars of the early 70's, specifically Oldsmobile.  Dealers got Service Bulletins that went to the technicians to explain changes that were not in the service manuals or other literature.  Much of this information is not in the public domain.  Worse than that, as a service rep for Olds we would get Engineering Bulletins from Olds that did not make their way to dealerships at all.  Sadly, all of that material I had saved went away with my car when I got divorced.  Looking back there was a treasure of information in those binders, particularly for the high performance guys.  I also, worked at Olds HQ in Lansing and one of my jobs involved being at meetings at the engine plant and I saw first hand that things were not always done exactly the same way.

 

So, I do not particularly get my underwear in a twist when it comes to "this is the only way they came".  Like Ed, if it is obvious the owner has tried his best to get it right then I had better have a incredibly great reason to doubt him and almost always accept their documentation.  Now if it is a CDO that has a Briggs & Stratton in it I naturally am not going to buy the story!  

 

  

[1937hd45]

Any idea what year this Ford is?

Edited April 18, 2022 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[chistech]

20 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

Any idea what year this Ford is?

It’s a Yesta-year!😁

[chistech]

1 hour ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

I think the esteemed Mr. Minnie has hit the nail on the head.  Several of my cars were extremely rare with only two known to exist.  In my efforts to secure factual data it became ALMOST impossible which led to research for years before I could restore the cars.  Years later I found more information, fortunately it did not change my view on our restoration efforts.  Those that opine on very early cars and are adamant that "this was the ONLY way they came" are walking down a path that may not be correct.  All we can do today is try to find the best historical information, particularly "factory" literature to make our decisions.

 

The one area I have first hand experience is with the cars of the early 70's, specifically Oldsmobile.  Dealers got Service Bulletins that went to the technicians to explain changes that were not in the service manuals or other literature.  Much of this information is not in the public domain.  Worse than that, as a service rep for Olds we would get Engineering Bulletins from Olds that did not make their way to dealerships at all.  Sadly, all of that material I had saved went away with my car when I got divorced.  Looking back there was a treasure of information in those binders, particularly for the high performance guys.  I also, worked at Olds HQ in Lansing and one of my jobs involved being at meetings at the engine plant and I saw first hand that things were not always done exactly the same way.

 

So, I do not particularly get my underwear in a twist when it comes to "this is the only way they came".  Like Ed, if it is obvious the owner has tried his best to get it right then I had better have a incredibly great reason to doubt him and almost always accept their documentation.  Now if it is a CDO that has a Briggs & Stratton in it I naturally am not going to buy the story!  

 

  

Steve,

joe Pirronne has an Oldsmobile factory meeting minutes document where they discussed life expectancy of just two years! I suspect they didn’t want the public to see that one. He has some very interesting and important original olds documents.

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

I think the esteemed Mr. Minnie has hit the nail on the head.  Several of my cars were extremely rare with only two known to exist.  In my efforts to secure factual data it became ALMOST impossible which led to research for years before I could restore the cars.  Years later I found more information, fortunately it did not change my view on our restoration efforts.  Those that opine on very early cars and are adamant that "this was the ONLY way they came" are walking down a path that may not be correct.  All we can do today is try to find the best historical information, particularly "factory" literature to make our decisions.

 

The one area I have first hand experience is with the cars of the early 70's, specifically Oldsmobile.  Dealers got Service Bulletins that went to the technicians to explain changes that were not in the service manuals or other literature.  Much of this information is not in the public domain.  Worse than that, as a service rep for Olds we would get Engineering Bulletins from Olds that did not make their way to dealerships at all.  Sadly, all of that material I had saved went away with my car when I got divorced.  Looking back there was a treasure of information in those binders, particularly for the high performance guys.  I also, worked at Olds HQ in Lansing and one of my jobs involved being at meetings at the engine plant and I saw first hand that things were not always done exactly the same way.

 

So, I do not particularly get my underwear in a twist when it comes to "this is the only way they came".  Like Ed, if it is obvious the owner has tried his best to get it right then I had better have a incredibly great reason to doubt him and almost always accept their documentation.  Now if it is a CDO that has a Briggs & Stratton in it I naturally am not going to buy the story!  

 

  

One would think there should be lots of TSB's floating around since 2004 when GM dissolved the Oldsmobile dealership franchises.  Something tells me it all didn't get purged, and an astute Service Manager or one of the mechanics employed at the dealership at the time trucked home binders full of them.

 

Craig

[JV Puleo]

Applying hard and fast rules to small production, pre-WWI cars, and to custom built bodies from the 20s, is a fools errand. Even more so with assembled cars. To some extent practically all of these cars utilized parts from outside suppliers. Even the factory literature is sometimes wrong...it certainly is with my Mitchell where it is obvious that running changes were made that never showed up in the "owner's manual". Case in point...the manual gives a dimension for the valves but, in fact, the valves they used are bigger...and this can't be an owner modification because the valve seats are right for the primitive 2-piece valves that were in the car. The manual says it has an aluminum sump...but it has a cast iron sump and I'm sure a previous owner didn't have an iron  sump cast to replace his aluminum one. Keep in mind that the original printed material was both expensive and time consuming to produce. It often required a lot of lead time and illustrations prepared when the car was on the drawing board may not match the product as finally produced.

[3macboys]

42 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

One would think there should be lots of TSB's floating around since 2004 when GM dissolved the Oldsmobile dealership franchises.  Something tells me it all didn't get purged, and an astute Service Manager or one of the mechanics employed at the dealership at the time trucked home binders full of them.

 

Craig

Sadly most of those guys are not car guys in the sense of the people here and most of those likely ended up here:

 

 

By 2004 paper documents were already becoming a thing of the past with a lot of documents and manuals switching to digital or DVD's.  I wonder now how many of those electronic files can still be opened.

 

Don

[George K]

On 4/17/2022 at 5:00 PM, StanleyRegister said:

I like to talk about old cars on forums.  I'm not too keen on discussing forums on forums.  But I wanted to get something off my chest:  Forums are a great place to kick back and shoot the breeze, but they are not necessarily suited to being a repository of accurate histories of antique cars. 

 

I've done a fair amount of hired provenance research, and one of the primary things I've learned is that anecdotes are not reliable truth.  Stories are not facts.  It's possible that they could contain correct information, but they are not proof.  The proof of any antique car's history must come from a combination of: photos of the car during its lifetime, from its early condition to the present; dated period documents; other primary or near-primary source material; and first-person accounts. 

 

Even the latter cannot be completely relied upon without some other corroboration.  Some people's memories drift after 10 years, 20, 50 years.  As an example, it can be shown that a widely-circulated story about a fine brass car, originating with the recollections of the elderly son of its original owner, could not have occurred as related, because public records and period newspaper accounts contradict it.

 

Anecdotes passed on in good faith are even weaker.  Each time the story transfers from one person to the next, there's a possibility that it will drift.  The last person in the chain could be faithfully repeating what they heard - so they're not fabricating anything.  But if what they heard was inaccurate, faithful repetition doesn't add any validity.

 

"Well, I got that directly from X, and I know he would never lie."  I have no doubt that he would never lie about what he heard.  If what he heard was incorrect...

 

The time when you must be most on your guard is when the car's story makes it somehow special or unusual.  "Factory racer", "prototype", "experimental", "transitional car", "formerly owned by Famous Person Z", "raced by Well-Known Driver Q" - you MUST do your own research on stories like these, or see the documents upon which the stories are based.  NOTHING else is proof.

 

Maybe the least valuable histories of all are the ones that are created by simply aggregating the anecdotes and guesswork of other people.  I was recently in a side conversation with someone who frequently contributes to these forums, and likes to present themself as a documentor and a clarifier and an authority on cars' backstories.  Here is what they wrote to me, verbatim - "My history is just as valid as any one else, even without documentation."

 

Is this the kind of "authority" you're going to get your facts from?  Is this the kind of "history" you're going to believe?  About a car that's important because it's a prototype or was formerly owned by Famous Person Z?  You can't rely on people like this.  You can't even tell who they are.  You can't rely on me, either.  All you can rely on is documents that I can unearth and present.

 

Please, be on your guard for anecdotes.  Learn to recognize guesswork.  And insist on valid documentation.  Don't fall into the trap of believing (and repeating) a story on the internet, just because it happens to be written confidently.

I once was told by a serious collector that if it takes more than five minutes to describe a cars history he didn’t what to own it.

[George K]

I hate spellcheck.Want to own it.

[Larry Schramm]

2 hours ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

The one area I have first hand experience is with the cars of the early 70's, specifically Oldsmobile.  Dealers got Service Bulletins that went to the technicians to explain changes that were not in the service manuals or other literature.  Much of this information is not in the public domain.  Worse than that, as a service rep for Olds we would get Engineering Bulletins from Olds that did not make their way to dealerships at all. 

 

Looking back there was a treasure of information in those binders, particularly for the high performance guys.  I also, worked at Olds HQ in Lansing and one of my jobs involved being at meetings at the engine plant and I saw first hand that things were not always done exactly the same way.  

 

Steve,

Looks like our careers had many similarities, but I did those things in the 80's with Buick when I was a service rep & field service engineer.  A number of years ago I donated all of my 80's service bulletins and zone letters to the Sloan Museum in Flint so others could use them for research if they want to.  I too also spent time in Flint in the Home Office.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Peter Gariepy]

On 4/17/2022 at 3:57 PM, Billy Kingsley said:

That's why I suggested the AACA forum (not the club proper) should have a space for documenting new cars now, so that when they reach 25 years old the accurate information and images would have been properly documented already. 

 

You can guess how well that went over. 

As forum admin... I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Billy Kingsley]

It was "shouted down" before I ever got around to making an official suggestion. Probably never crossed your sight. 

 

I still think we should be documenting now and not waiting until something is 25 years old. I'm doing the best I can on my own website but my resources and availability are limited. 

[Peter Gariepy]

3 minutes ago, Billy Kingsley said:

It was "shouted down" before I ever got around to making an official suggestion. Probably never crossed your sight. 

 

I still think we should be documenting now and not waiting until something is 25 years old. I'm doing the best I can on my own website but my resources and availability are limited. 

not by me....  but you understand what a daunting task that would be!?  

[Billy Kingsley]

Yes, I do, but I feel that the car nut community could pull it off. 

 

I have a whole section on my website with over 1000 unique car models/years I've photographed, labeled etc and I'm just one person. 

[Terry Harper]

2 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Keep in mind that the original printed material was both expensive and time consuming to produce. It often required a lot of lead time and illustrations prepared when the car was on the drawing board may not match the product as finally produced.

Very true! I have a collection of sales material that recycled the same photos year after year in spite of known changes. Its pretty obvious when the engine shown is a T-head from a totally different manufacturer than what the specs and text describe.

[3macboys]

49 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:

not by me....  but you understand what a daunting task that would be!?  

 

45 minutes ago, Billy Kingsley said:

Yes, I do, but I feel that the car nut community could pull it off. 

This may be worthy of an entirely new thread but my thought is when is the task more daunting - now when the material is readily available or in 25 years when the car becomes eligible for show and the search begins for 25 year old sources?  I think Billy just may be on to something.   Just out of curiosity, does the AACA library accumulate new vehicle information or only once the vehicles are 25 years old?  If they are already doing that, then no need to reinvent the wheel here.

 

Don

[Ed Luddy]

9 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

All of the above is good, but let's not join the zealots restoring Model A Fords, Corvettes, and 1970 Barracudas. 

Amen to that! I have owned all of the above vehicles. Can't get away from those "zealots" fast enough at a old car meeting.

[ericmac]

4 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

Any idea what year this Ford is?

1914.

[1937hd45]

How about this one

[Terry Harper]

4 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

How about this one

A new game called Model T flash cards….. I am out (LOL)

[ericmac]

5 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

How about this one

1915...though here is case in point of how things get tricky. In the illustration the car has brass trim in the headlamps, cowl lamps and no port hole window in the top, all indicators of a 1915. In 1916 the headlight rings and trim for the cowl lamps were painted steel, black. And the porthole window was also a running change...but when between 1915 and 1916 did those changes occur? And that is what makes car collecting maddening,  but in a fun way.

[8E45E]

10 hours ago, 3macboys said:

 

This may be worthy of an entirely new thread but my thought is when is the task more daunting - now when the material is readily available or in 25 years when the car becomes eligible for show and the search begins for 25 year old sources?  I think Billy just may be on to something.   Just out of curiosity, does the AACA library accumulate new vehicle information or only once the vehicles are 25 years old?  If they are already doing that, then no need to reinvent the wheel here.

Rolls-Royce retains a complete and thorough record of their cars made over the years.  This includes paint samples, wood veneer samples, and interior upholstery swatches in the exact color it was delivered; especially for special order (now called 'Bespoke') cars.   Even back then, they wanted to ensure an exact match was going to be made in the event of accident repair.

 

Craig

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, 8E45E said:

Rolls-Royce retains a complete and thorough record of their cars made over the years.  This includes paint samples, wood veneer samples, and interior upholstery swatches in the exact color it was delivered; especially for special order (now called 'Bespoke') cars.   Even back then, they wanted to ensure an exact match was going to be made in the event of accident repair.

 

Craig

 

Had an older friend that owned a late 50s RR and got in a fender bender back in the 60s.   He ordered a new fender from RR and they got out the body bucks and hammered him a new one.  The car was 10 years old at that point.  Wonder when they started throwing that stuff out?

[8E45E]

I don't believe R-R ever did dispose of their records; even under BMW ownership.

 

Mercedes Benz also keeps comprehensive records of their cars.

 

Craig

[Walt G]

Bob - re the Model T coupelet , wasn't there one of these that used to show up at the HCCA Fairfield County Region pre 1942 car show in Ridgefield, Ct. . Some how I recall one being there but that was back in the late 1960s early 1970s - just a few years ago . When my hair was still a dark color and I still had all of it.................

Walt

[Chris Bamford]

15 hours ago, George K said:

I hate spellcheck.Want to own it.

As far as I’m concerned, whoever invented spellcheck can just go to hello!

[60FlatTop]

Earlier in this topic I posted a picture of a group of old liars and mentioned I had been exposed to them at an early age. I learned to verify early. In 1960 I was 11-12 years old. I heard the story the Rolls-Royce cars had a lifetime guarantee from some "expert". I wrote a letter to Rolls-Royce of America asking for proof of this fantastic policy. I received a courteous letter in return with a copy of their one year warranty and an explanation of their offering. About 10 years ago I gave that letter to Doug Seibert for his collection of Silver Cloud memorabilia. With such good fortune at an early age I was encouraged to seek verification at the closest source all my life.

 

I also discovered the "formal" history to be quite censored. In many instances one can learn much more from what people of a time period were told not to do than one would from written accounts of what they did. If they we told not to do something rest assured, they were. A very entertaining part of history. I really do crack up reading Hammurabi's Code. The scoundrels haven't changed a bit in 4,000 years.

 

A museum of "Do Not" signs would have people leaving with tears of laughter streaming down their cheeks.

[coachJC]

Thru the 70s and 80s if the local Ford dealer had a car that was sitting on the lot to long, would bring cars up to my dads body shop and he would add some 2 tone paint and some pin stripping to cars to try and add a little some thing to the car to help it sell. Never a factory thing but just something the dealership would do to help sell a car, The owner might say he bought it with that paint scheme and have pictures from the day he purchased the car but nothing from the factory would ever indicate that car came in that paint combination. Dealerships in the teens weren't the only ones doing things to cars to help them get off the lot.

 

Jeff

[1937hd45]

3 hours ago, Walt G said:

Bob - re the Model T coupelet , wasn't there one of these that used to show up at the HCCA Fairfield County Region pre 1942 car show in Ridgefield, Ct. . Some how I recall one being there but that was back in the late 1960s early 1970s - just a few years ago . When my hair was still a dark color and I still had all of it.................

Walt

Yes, 1963 when I was 12 years old took three books of Triple S Blue stamps the get my Kodak camera back in 1961. The Couplet has New York plates and an AACA First Junior oval, they were rare back then. Car was a deep blue. Don Carlson had an unrestored one in Kensington, Ct, it wound up in the Mark Smith collection. 

Edited April 19, 2022 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

5 hours ago, ericmac said:

1915...though here is case in point of how things get tricky. In the illustration the car has brass trim in the headlamps, cowl lamps and no port hole window in the top, all indicators of a 1915. In 1916 the headlight rings and trim for the cowl lamps were painted steel, black. And the porthole window was also a running change...but when between 1915 and 1916 did those changes occur? And that is what makes car collecting maddening,  but in a fun way.

The reason I posted the Couplet and Touring car catalog photos was to point out you need to be carful with using catalogs in documenting features. BOTH photos are in the same early 1915 catalog, here is the Roadster and Center Door that were also featured. 

[RAH]

Guys, I have been reading these excerpts with interest. However,  I also am an avid researcher and treat raw data sometimes with associated caution. I have always heard that an EXPERT is a nebulous term consisting of an X which is an unknown and a SPURT is a Drip under pressure.  Continue your research but be able to back it up with facts! And, stay safe and ENJOY life with all it's contradictions!

[Walt G]

6 minutes ago, RAH said:

an EXPERT is a nebulous term consisting of an X which is an unknown and a SPURT is a Drip under pressure.  Continue your research but be able to back it up with facts!

Absolutely. Facts need to back up what is stated and then there are period resources needed to make sure the facts are correct. One report of an event from the era isn't necessarily what was exactly happening. As I mentioned about the Vanderbilt Cup race - who saw it from what location and at what point in the race?  Sometimes we are fortunate to not only have access to period reports from the era but photos and even memories of people that were there to witness what was going on. Careful examination of all of those can provide a more accurate image/tale of what really happened. I am the appointed historian for the village where I have lived my whole life, and in the village archives were photos of  a major car race on public roads taken at the time. These tell volumes of the conditions the race was held under, what the location was like , and hazards as well  All things have to be considered if you can be made aware of them.

[RAH]

Guys, One more observation I find in Politics, which we are not discussing here, but in antique autos specifically is if something is repeated often enough even the poster will begin to believe it as fact. Case in point is the inappropriate application of the MODEL 30 to early Dodge Brothers cars. In fact the brothers Dodge chose NOT to follow other car manufacturers with the annual model changes rather making changes as they felt appropriate. There was NO factory model number associated with Dodge Brothers cars 'till well past the untimely demise of those brothers. Some of us attribute that erroneous application of the Model 30 to an inept DMV employee who may have abhored a blank spot on the licensing forms so entered the HP rating in that spot. To sum up, as mentioned earlier, continuing to repeat data right or wrong does not validate it as fact! Enjoy!

[oldcarfudd]

Kimes and Clark Standard Catalog lists the early Dodge Brothers as Model 30-35.  Most folks will take this as gospel, despite there being lots of errors in that book.  For instance, saying the Ford Models N, R and S were chain drive (they weren't).

[Peter Gariepy]

10 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Rolls-Royce retains a complete and thorough record of their cars made over the years.  This includes paint samples, wood veneer samples, and interior upholstery swatches in the exact color it was delivered; especially for special order (now called 'Bespoke') cars.   Even back then, they wanted to ensure an exact match was going to be made in the event of accident repair.

 

Craig

It that info publicly available somewhere to research?

[BobinVirginia]

Once again, I’m reading through a topic learning more about early vehicles. I’d never heard of a Staver and or the judging of a snap placement. The nuances of car knowledge is fascinating and seemingly endless. Thanks to all 

[CChinn]

5 hours ago, RAH said:

Guys, One more observation I find in Politics, which we are not discussing here, but in antique autos specifically is if something is repeated often enough even the poster will begin to believe it as fact. Case in point is the inappropriate application of the MODEL 30 to early Dodge Brothers cars. In fact the brothers Dodge chose NOT to follow other car manufacturers with the annual model changes rather making changes as they felt appropriate. There was NO factory model number associated with Dodge Brothers cars 'till well past the untimely demise of those brothers. Some of us attribute that erroneous application of the Model 30 to an inept DMV employee who may have abhored a blank spot on the licensing forms so entered the HP rating in that spot. To sum up, as mentioned earlier, continuing to repeat data right or wrong does not validate it as fact! Enjoy!

So…what is the verifiable  source of the “erroneous application of the Model 30 to an inept DMV employee who may have abhorred a blank spot on the licensing forms so entered the HP rating in that spot”?  Or is this another example of something being repeated enough that it is considered fact?

[hook]

On 4/18/2022 at 3:08 PM, PFindlay said:

Agreed. It's a snapshot at best.  My 1912 REO came out of the barn in the 1970s after a 45 year slumber.  At that time ('70s) it had 1913 REO rear fenders and missing lamps.  Today it has been put back to proper fenders and lamps.

 

But recently I've received family photos of the car going as far back as 1914.  They reveal that by 1914 the car had electric cowl and tail lamps and perhaps even the 1913 fenders.  The car was not registered until February of 1913, so could it be that it was updated by the dealer to help it sell alongside the 1913 models?  Yes, we (probably) know how it left the factory, but the history of the car may be that it was purchased with electric lamps, so who's to say what is "correct?" 

 

There are probably all kinds of stories like this.  It goes to support the need to get all the documentation you can, and to accept the fact that there were variations or exceptions along the way.

My question is, If a person bought a car and there was no manufacturer option of a heater and the buyer of said vehicle wanted one. And, the dealer, not wanting to loose a customer, offered to get an after market unit and install it in the car before the new owner took possession. Wouldn't that constitute it original equipment? Or, would you have to remove it to make the car "Judge worthy"???  

[8E45E]

13 hours ago, Peter Gariepy said:

It that info publicly available somewhere to research?

Mention of R-R keeping their build records in that manor has been mentioned in a few automotive publications over the years, which is where I've read it.  Whether the public has access to it or not, one will have to contact Rolls-Royce/BMW directly and inquire. From what I have read, Mercedes Benz requires proof of ownership before they will send a Production Order for their car, and Rolls-Royce may have a similar policy in place for build records for a particular car. 

 

In the case of Studebaker, one can purchase a Production Order for a car or truck (it doesn't necessarily have to be their ownership) through the Studebaker National Museum in South Bend.  The Curator, Andy Beckman published an excellent article in this month's SDC club magazine on how to go about ordering one, and for which years are available.

 

Craig

[alsancle]

20 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

Mention of R-R keeping their build records in that manor has been mentioned in a few automotive publications over the years, which is where I've read it.  Whether the public has access to it or not, one will have to contact Rolls-Royce/BMW directly and inquire. From what I have read, Mercedes Benz requires proof of ownership before they will send a Production Order for their car, and Rolls-Royce may have a similar policy in place for build records for a particular car. 

 

In the case of Studebaker, one can purchase a Production Order for a car or truck (it doesn't necessarily have to be their ownership) through the Studebaker National Museum in South Bend.  The Curator, Andy Beckman published an excellent article in this month's SDC club magazine on how to go about ordering one, and for which years are available.

 

Craig

 

The RROC and the RREC each have archives that are accessible to club members for a modest fee.  I think the last car I did was 80 bucks and they will give you everything they have.  Springfield cars you go to the RROC and Derby cars you go to the RREC.  I have dealt with both and they are responsive and you get some great stuff.    I got a complete chassis test report and dyno for a particular chassis along with the build cards and ownership history.

 

Damilar Benz is different and last I heard the car has to be in their possession at the Classic Center before they hand over anything.  This was at least true for the prewar stuff.  It didn't used to be that way and if I'm wrong please correct me.