Missing cars still thought to exist.

[1912Staver]

Agreed, but it's not only the exchange. Also the ordeal of actually getting a U.S. purchase legally across into Canada. I have done it twice in the last 3 years, so it is doable. But several hoops to jump through, some flaming. If there had have been any chance of buying similar cars in Canada I would have 100 % gone that route.

 Very few cars I am both interested in , and that are priced within my reach in Western Canada it would seem.

[1912Staver]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

As a guy who has hunted the worlds best game(read that as cars) , and bagged way more than my limit......only two very good cars I ever came across were totally unknown to any people in the hobby......and a few fantastic world class cars were way off the radar to the people on the globe.....but at least four or five people were sitting on the info.........and eventually over five or six decades both the Duesenbergs found their way into the hobby.

I am not only thinking about world class cars Ed. Unfortunately most of us are more or less limited to the small fry of the automotive world.   But absolutely I have found a few that became unreliable / non functional when they were just used cars and ended up spending 3 or even 4 decades out of sight , out of everyone's mind.

In the other branch of my collecting I just bought an estate collection of several  collectable 1950's and 1960's , very high end racing bicycles. An estate sale, not one had been out of the owners basement in 35 - 40 years.  Plus a large quantity of extra parts. 

 Not a sleeping Duesenberg , but still I was pretty pleased with my luck. Husband and wife pair of well off , avid cyclists . But as they got into their later years they just rode a couple of newer mountain bikes. The wife's bikes are too small for me and will be sold. I should end up with 4 first class bikes plus a ton of spares at very low cost. The son was very happy to sell them all in one lot.

Edited March 21, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Buffalowed Bill]

In the mid 70's I was an aspiring Classic car collector. I had done a good deal of research, but didn't have enough real world experience to know what I was doing. I guess most of us can look back at a time in our lives that we were just a feather in the wind.

 

I had previously seen a picture of this car, but had thought that it had been lost long ago. The car had been brought to the European front during WWll to use as a staff car. After the war it was brought back, but I don't know how or when. A well known collector in LA had the car which he advertised with the rest of his collection. I called but it became immediately obvious that the car wasn't for sale. It was a case of bait and switch. Decades later the collection was sold as part of his estate, to a noted Kansas City collector. About ten years ago he showed me the car, in pieces in the basement of his museum. He said that he thought that he might restore the car in it's Army green. That didn't sit well with me an I told him so. i understand that the car is being restored and not in Army green.

 

Almost forgot the car is a 1933 Studebaker President Speedway. Only around 600 cars with his chassis were produced in 1933. This is the only surviving convertible sedan. 

 

[Buffalowed Bill]

A larger picture. Sorry I guess that larger picure won't print for me.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Buffalowed Bill (see edit history)

[Graham Man]

My neighbor offered me one of these a couple years back 1928 Salmson GS8 twin cam roadster, this model won the 1928 French Grand Prix.  The car was brought back after WW2, now it is back in French collectors hands.  He still has several cars no one has seen for 50+ years including his first car.  I am still chasing a 1928 Graham-Paige dual cowl phaeton, it last seen around 1970, lots of interesting cars still out there. 

 

The ones that get me, are all the brass cars from shows in the 50's 60's and 70's... 

 

1928 Salmson GS8 twin cam roadster

[8E45E]

57 minutes ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

Most likely, Don Armacost.  He has an impressive collection of open-top early 1930's Studebakers. Unfortunately, the other survivor was lost in a garage fire 20 years ago. 

 

Before the fire:

 

 

 

 

Craig

Edited March 22, 2022 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[edinmass]

I think it’s in Massachuetts........if so, we did the engine two or three years ago. There are two or three of them.....

[58L-Y8]

12 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Most likely, Don Armacost.  He has an impressive collection of open-top early 1930's Studebakers. Unfortunately, the other survivor was lost in a garage fire 20 years ago. 

 

Before the fire:

 

 

 

 

Craig

The 1933 Studebaker President convertible sedan lost in a fire was a Model 82.  The 1933 Speedway President Model 92 convertible sedan (sole survivor) is in the Don Armacost collection, either under restoration or complete by now.

 

Addendum: In terms of specifications, the 1933 Studebaker President Model 82 succeeded the 1932 Commander Model 71 both series running the 250 ci straight eight, on 125" wheelbase with nearly the same body selection.   The 1933 Commander Eight Model 73, 235 ci engine and 117" wheelbase, the latter from the 1932 Dictator Model 62.  This was model rationalization instituted in response to the economic Depression.    

Edited March 22, 2022 by 58L-Y8
Further model information context between 1932 and 1933. (see edit history)

[Buffalowed Bill]

To those of us who care, there is a world of difference between the smaller Commander based Model 82 President and the "Full Classic"  Model 92. I am in no way putting down the Model 82, or the similar Model 73 Commander, but there is a difference, and the car itself shouts it louder than anything I could say.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=1933+studebaker+model+73&qpvt=1933+studebaker+model+73&tsc=ImageHoverTitle&FORM=IGRE

[Buffalowed Bill]

I should really put this response to bed, but you know how it is when you have something on your mind and you just can't go to sleep!

This is a picture of the only surviving restored 1932 President which belongs to George Vassos. It was a recent class winner at Pebble. This car was found in Mexico City decades ago. An almost disastrous attempt at a restoration ended when George rescued the project. There is supposed to be  another car like this, but I can't verify it's existence. 

[John_Mereness]

On 3/13/2022 at 1:18 PM, alsancle said:

Our own John Mereness thought he saw this car twenty years ago in pieces.   This may still be somewhere to be found.

It was eons ago and It could have been this car, though for some reason I always thought of it as a 4-door convertible - anyway, the owner was quite clear that it was a one off and the unfortunate things was that the condition was rough and it was basically turned into a pick-en-up-truck (it definitely was not a chopped cabriolet whatever it was)

[8E45E]

Some missing Studebakers mentioned (and already mentioned here earlier with further information):   Which years (and models) do we know of no survivors? - Studebaker Drivers Club Forum

 

Craig

[8E45E]

23 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:

The 1933 Studebaker President convertible sedan lost in a fire was a Model 82.   

I wonder how many Model 82 '33 convertible sedans now survive.   Unfortunately, more than just the '33 President was lost in that fire.  A Jaguar or two, and a vintage airplane was also consumed in it, due to an unattended battery charger left on one of the Jaguars.

 

Craig

[58L-Y8]

9 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

I wonder how many Model 82 '33 convertible sedans now survive.  

 

Craig

Craig: 

Richard Quinn would be the best source for an accurate answer.  His article in the Antique Studebaker Review, November-December 2001, detailing the convertible sedan pre-war offerings is the best source I've found.  At the time, only two 1933 President Model 82 convertible sedans were known extant, one in Australia, the other the one subsequently lost in a fire.  

Steve

[JamesR]

On 3/14/2022 at 3:14 PM, Billy Kingsley said:

The Silhouette was stolen out of a parking lot at a motel the night before a car show in the mid 60s and was never seen again. The car was completely hand formed. Image is a screenshot of my Hot Wheels examples. 

 

 

Wow, I'd never heard that the Silhouette was stolen, and I've been aware of that car since I was a kid. Thanks for the education. I still have my Hot Wheels version of it in my basement, though it and the rest of my Hot Wheels have been given to my son. Hot Wheels came out in '67 when I was nine years old, so, needless to say, I was an addict. Another similar type of show car that was offered by Hot Wheels was the Beatnik Bandit, which I think was an Ed Roth creation. Bubble top customs were hugely popular in the early sixties/late fifties.

[8E45E]

4 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:

At the time, only two 1933 President Model 82 convertible sedans were known extant, one in Australia, the other the one subsequently lost in a fire.  

Therefore, with the loss of Clark Seaborn's Model 82 in the fire, we must still be at 1 of each 1933 President convertible sedan survivors, unless another has appeared in the past 20 years.

 

Craig

[58L-Y8]

Sorry for the poor images, photos of published photos.  1930 Packard Deluxe Eight Model 745 convertible sedan by LeBaron, production given as ten cars.

[West Peterson]

1 hour ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Sorry for the poor images, photos of published photos.  1930 Packard Deluxe Eight Model 745 convertible sedan by LeBaron, production given as ten cars.

I think just two exist. One in the Packard Museum in Dayton, and another in private hands just south of Dayton. Neither have the type of seating in these photos, tho, and there are other differences as well. Such as the windshield post.

 

 

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Sorry for the poor images, photos of published photos.  1930 Packard Deluxe Eight Model 745 convertible sedan by LeBaron, production given as ten cars.

 

I have this vague recollection of see this car at auction 20 something years ago.   The double rear spare being the thing that sticks in my mind.  But google is not helping me find a picture.

 

[dibarlaw]

To me this was THE PACKARD of all my dreams. Low, sleek, unencumbered by side mounts. Chrome plated wheels. I did a painting of this car for my art class about 50 years ago!

My crude efforts below.

 

 Wheelbase is way out of proportion.

[1937hd45]

Do you think some of the "missing" cars, were once auctioned off and just stuffed in the corner of a barn or garage? Just thumbed through the 1st Kirk White auction catalog from May 1, 1971, top sale was an Auburn 12 at $20,000, total on the sale of 106 cars was $650,000, the Good Old Days.

 

Bob 

Edited March 25, 2022 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[nzcarnerd]

On the subject of Studebaker cabriolets a shot of this one came up on another page. From a 1934 French movie - IMCDb.org: 1933 Studebaker President Convertible Sedan [Model 82] in "Mauvaise graine, 1934"

 

[George K]

10 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Sorry for the poor images, photos of published photos.  1930 Packard Deluxe Eight Model 745 convertible sedan by LeBaron, production given as ten cars.

Certainly not a new idea. Here’s a 1914 Locomobile.Same layout.

[edinmass]

On 3/22/2022 at 3:01 PM, Buffalowed Bill said:

I should really put this response to bed, but you know how it is when you have something on your mind and you just can't go to sleep!

This is a picture of the only surviving restored 1932 President which belongs to George Vassos. It was a recent class winner at Pebble. This car was found in Mexico City decades ago. An almost disastrous attempt at a restoration ended when George rescued the project. There is supposed to be  another car like this, but I can't verify it's existence. 

George is a nice guy, and works hard on his cars. We did the engine on this one.......he has a bunch of great Stude’s in his collection. He’s working on another very interesting CCCA car now.........

[edinmass]

7 hours ago, George K said:

Certainly not a new idea. Here’s a 1914 Locomobile.Same layout.

Always liked the look of the Morris chair lay out. I have only seen three or four cars over fifty years with them......leading me to think they are not comfortable or difficult to get in and out of..........never sat in one unfortunately.

[58L-Y8]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

Always liked the look of the Morris chair lay out. I have only seen three or four cars over fifty years with them......leading me to think they are not comfortable or difficult to get in and out of..........never sat in one unfortunately.

Ed:   

 

I can't speak to the comfort of the individual armchair seating configuration, but they were perceived as another detail of the ultimate in luxury.  Consider the Classics in which they're found: Duesenberg J Beverly by Murphy and SJ Arlington Sedan by Rollston (Twenty Grand), Cord 810/812 Beverly interiors.  Given that purchasers of full-custom bodies could specify seating dimensions and comfort levels to suit their individual taste, subsequent owners or occupants of that seating might not experience the same.   

 

The concept never completely faded away: Nash, during the 1949-'51 Airflyte series (bathtub) catalogued the two door Brougham model which featured two rear compartment individual armchair seats slightly angled toward the centerline of the body.  The take-rate was relatively low.  Fastforward to 1974, the Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham Talisman was furnished with four-place seating separated with consoles all done in Medici crushed velour on armchair-style seats.  The concept continues to the present in ultra-luxury lwb chauffeur-driven sedans particularly popular in Asia.

 

Steve 

[8E45E]

44 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Fastforward to 1974, the Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham Talisman was furnished with four-place seating separated with consoles all done in Medici crushed velour on armchair-style seats.  The concept continues to the present in ultra-luxury lwb chauffeur-driven sedans particularly popular in Asia. 

Now you can add heated seats, lumbar support, and massage options for seating in higher-end vehicles.

 

That "Medici crushed velour" was a 70's joke compared to the much nicer wool broadcloth material used in earlier years when genuine leather was not specified.  The crushed velour used in cars always reminded me of cheap apartment furniture sold in K-Mart and Woolworth in that era.

 

Craig

Edited March 25, 2022 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[8E45E]

There are other vehicles besides cars that are very low production, but due to their nature of hard use, heavy trucks and buses rarely got saved, regardless how few were produced.  Saskatoon Municipal Transit did have a 1937 Studebaker bus in their fleet.  And many other transit systems may have only one or two examples of a particular bus.

 

Craig

Edited March 26, 2022 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[AURktman]

I know it’s not exactly a missing or ultra rare car, but this one is interesting.  A friend/former colleague owns it. 
 

http://myflatheadford.com/henry-ford-ii-1931-model-a/

[TG57Roadmaster]

This one’s for you, Ed - I know you’ve seen it…

1932 Lincoln KB Brunn Doublentree Sport Sedan, at the Albright Art Gallery, Buffalo, NY.

 

[TG57Roadmaster]

Hopefully this one is languishing in a warehouse or garage…

 

Everyone knew about this custom made by Fleetwood - it’s in all the books - but it wasn’t till 2017 that I discovered, “The car, ordered by an Eastern motorist, cost approximately $17,000.” was built for Doris Duke (Cromwell), “The World’s Richest Girl.”

(Contrary to what article says, the collapsible rear quarter was covered in imported black leather, not the entire body)

 

It made for a very interesting story in the Winter 2017, “The Classic Car.” 
 

Now, if we could just find out the V-16’s ultimate fate.

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by TG57Roadmaster (see edit history)

[Gary_Ash]

1 hour ago, TG57Roadmaster said:

This one’s for you, Ed - I know you’ve seen it…

1932 Lincoln KB Brunn Doublentree Sport Sedan, at the Albright Art Gallery, Buffalo, NY.

 

OK, I’m confused.  One door, two handles, two sets of hinges.  How does that work?

[TG57Roadmaster]

10 minutes ago, Gary_Ash said:

OK, I’m confused.  One door, two handles, two sets of hinges.  How does that work?

“Doublentree”, or Double Entry, the 64-inch door opens from front or rear for passenger ingress.

 

Read about the unique door design here, about halfway down the lengthy Brunn listing.

http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/b/brunn/brunn.htm

Edited March 27, 2022 by TG57Roadmaster (see edit history)

[8E45E]

2 hours ago, Gary_Ash said:

OK, I’m confused.  One door, two handles, two sets of hinges.  How does that work?

And a 1953 Philco fridge to go with the double-hinged theme:  Philco V dual hinged door refrigerator in LA (automaticwasher.org)

 

Craig

[jeff_a]

On 3/26/2022 at 6:10 PM, TG57Roadmaster said:

Hopefully this one is languishing in a warehouse or garage…

 

Everyone knew about this custom made by Fleetwood - it’s in all the books - but it wasn’t till 2017 that I discovered, “The car, ordered by an Eastern motorist, cost approximately $17,000.” was built for Doris Duke (Cromwell), “The World’s Richest Girl.”

(Contrary to what article says, the collapsible rear quarter was covered in imported black leather, not the entire body)

 

It made for a very interesting story in the Winter 2017, “The Classic Car.” 
 

Now, if we could just find out the V-16’s ultimate fate.

 

Hi Tom,

Someday, I'd like to get permission to prowl around the "modest" Waikiki Beach house the Cromwells had built, "Shangri-La". Maybe the Fleetwood Landau is in an outbuilding out back. I know someone familiar with the art collection there, worth a thousand times more, and can see how an old car could be overlooked. I really don't have the money to go to Hawaii again(went there by sea once), but did read an obscure reference to Doris Duke having a Peerless at her house at one time. Mr. Cromwell was formerly a Peerless Vice President and that could explain it.

Here is something from the Duke University Photo Collection showing the couple in a big car touring Europe....I don't know if it is the same one.

...

...............................James & Doris Cromwell while travelling abroad, possibly in Germany, 1935............................

Edited March 28, 2022 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[ejboyd5]

It is rumored that both of the 300 SLS cars used by Paul O'Shea to secure his third straight championship in 1957 were destroyed by Mercedes-Benz following the season to preserve the secrecy of construction details which, if revealed, might have resulted in an ex post facto disqualification. It is also rumored that one or both of the cars still exist.  M-B remains mum.

[TG57Roadmaster]

15 hours ago, jeff_a said:

Here is something from the Duke University Photo Collection showing the couple in a big car touring Europe....I don't know if it is the same one

Hi Jeff,

 

Wow, thanks for forwarding the Duke University image. It's the same V-16 Cadillac, to be sure, ordered in Feb, 1936 according the data card from the GM Media Archive. The larger badge above the UK license plate looks very teutonic, with the style of eagles used in the 1936 Berlin Olympiade. Perhaps it was a rally or club badge. 

 

I'll post this over on the fans of Whitemarsh Hall Facebook page, where they know much more about Doris Duke and James Cromwell. The Cadillac was a belated wedding gift for Cromwell, built after their January 1936 return from their year-long honeymoon, paid for by Doris Duke. They may or may not be able to identify the woman in the front seat, who may be part of their retinue that accompanied them while traveling. 

 

There are two photos in this link to the Doris Duke Photograph Collection, Duke University Library - they were not in the collection's online images when I wrote my story back in 2017. The money shot is the couple sitting in back with the landaulet top down, the car loaded with luggage. Crikey!

 

https://repository.duke.edu/dc/dorisdukephotos/ddpph011100

Seeing these two, there must be more from their European tour, so now a trip to Duke University (4 hours away) is a must.

Enjoy, and thanks!

 

TG

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by TG57Roadmaster (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Great photos guys!

[63RedBrier]

Look at the size of that TRUNK!

 

[jeff_a]

 

Heacock Classics Image. 1933 Lancia Astura Dual Cowl Sport Phaeton by Castagna built for Doris Duke