I didn't see a intro page so I'll start here. 29 Plymouth

[Walter Jones]

I have been working on a 1929 Plymouth Phaeton for a lady so she can put it in the Christmas parade. I have it running and driving although not perfectly yet. She offered it sell it to me and my wife loves it. It is mostly original but has had some mechanical things changed. I don't think the radiator is original and I know the GM alternator and 12V electrical system isn't. The seats are covered in modern vinyl and its been repainted sometime in the past. 

I am trying to figure out what is a fair price. I can find sedans that are similar for sale but no open top cars. Here is a short video of my wife backing it out of the building its stored in for a test drive.

 

[F&J]

Keiser31 is more of an expert on early Mopars, but as I owned a 29, the bumper bars and it's clamps look homemade, but the actual black bumper mounting bracket looks correct. The wire wheels are later than 28-29, which had much smaller hupcaps with exposed lug nuts.

 

The radiator shell looks possibly wrong for a 29 from what little I can see being painted black, so I wonder if this is a 1930 Plymouth?  I thought that a 1930 shell was taller than 28-29, which would need a taller hood and cowl?    That's why it possibly could be a 1930.

 

I'm not picking the car apart!  These 28-31 Plymouth tourings are seldom ever seen, the sidemounts are somewhat rare on the low priced Plymouth, and really add to the good looks.  

 

There is a serial number on the dash medallion and if the engine is original to that car, the first letter of the stamped engine serial number will tell if it is a 29 or not.

 

I cannot price any car, however it looks pretty darn good, and it's uncommon.  A keeper in my mind. 

[SC38dls]

That is a good looking car. If your wife is for it you have overcome a major road block most of us stumble on when buying another car. You are a lucky man. Figure out a fair price the owner will accept and buy it without a haggle. 
dave s 

[keiser31]

The radiator shell looks correct to me as the thin profile type for that year. The 1930 shell was about 4" deep. Yes, the bumper is incorrect.

[bryankazmer]

Is this a touring or a phaeton?

[keiser31]

38 minutes ago, bryankazmer said:

Is this a touring or a phaeton?

Called a touring by Chrysler Corporation.

[JACK M]

There are those that may look down their noses at modifications.

I am sure that who ever made those mods did it to make the car more reliable for themselves.

It's their car and they can do as they please.

Now the car gets to another stage of its life span and the modifications become a topic of discussion.

One may consider making an attempt to make the vehicle stock again, but that would make for a project that may or may not be necessary to enjoy the car.

If it were me, I would buy the car, finish sorting it out to make it dependable and "Drive it like you stole it"

If it's your fancy to get it back to original, then more power to ya.

You have the argument that it's not original as a bargaining chip should you choose to use that.

But it sounds like you won't need it.

[Walter Jones]

I'll reply to everyone here. My wife is a keeper but someone should be the voice of reason and at least discourage spending the kids inherence. Instead she says "I won't get mad if you don't buy it but I sure like it" The plaque on the dash and the paperwork says  RS335E. Its registered as a 29. It has the cooling system with no water pump so from what  I have read that's a early 29. She called it a Phaeton but the registration doesn't say and I don't know the difference between a touring and a phaeton. I won't negotiate the price because she is a friend and a recent widow plus the registration says that in 2013 they gave $3500 more than she ask me for it. If it was all original that would be cool but not something that I would try to go back to. Besides 12V positive ground is something I am a lot more familiar with. The tires are 20" i that helps date the wheels. It does have a pretty bad oil leak at the rear main and I know what it takes to replace one of those rope seals. Another thing I would have to fix is the door hinges are REALLY loose. I don't know what that would take but I feel I could either bush or weld the holes up and make pins to get them tighter.

[edinmass]

What are they asking.......market is very soft for that car. It’s unusual and uncommon, but it’s not a V-12 Packard. Price should be the starting point before you consider anything else.

[Walter Jones]

7 minutes ago, edinmass said:

What are they asking.......market is very soft for that car. It’s unusual and uncommon, but it’s not a V-12 Packard. Price should be the starting point before you consider anything else.

She hasn't put it on the market yet but she was thinking 18K They gave a little more than that is 2013. She said she would take less from us since we are in the same club and friends.  Its not something I would try to make money on but I also don't want to buy something I will have to take a big loss on if I had to sell it.

[edinmass]

It’s a 10-12k car in today’s market. That said, sellers aren’t adjusting to the down market as fast as the buyers are. Not trying to dump on, or insult the car........18k will buy you lots more machine, in better condition. Since I don’t know you, the seller, I have no axe to grind. Any offer they get over ten is a godsend......and they should jump on it. Best of luck in the purchase.........and, do yourself a favor......show them this post.

Edited November 21, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

Do you know the history on this car? When I see an open car of this era with a paint combination that looks odd and has wheels that others question, I wonder if it came up from South America. Back in the late 1960's a lot of stuff came up, many with miss matched parts. Check to see if it ever had a steering column on the right side. Check the condition of the body wood as well. Bob 

[Walter Jones]

I'm not sure to proceed. I could just let her try to sell it with her knowing I am interested and see what happens or risk hurting her feelings. I don't know the history of the car other than they bought it from a place here in Texas that sells that kind of vehicles. Her husband might have known more but he passed away unexpectedly earlier this year. I have been under it and the wood floor looks good but I doubt its original. The column is not correct  because it no longer has the light switch throttle and spark levers but I didn't see any signs it had ever been on the right. The engine and drivetrain all look original from what I have seen on the internet. The tires are 4.75X 20. I saw here  that Plymouth went to 19" wheels in 1930 so I think the wheel size may be correct https://www.ply33.com/Models/30-U/specs.html. I didn't see any exposed wood to check other than the floor and part of the top frame so I don't know how to inspect it. I am more of a post war kind of car guy so I appreciate the replies.

[Steve9]

Just for comparison, I’ll sell you my ‘36 Dodge for 18k! No wood to rot out either.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Steve9 (see edit history)

[13CADDY]

Just to add a question--Will it fir inside your garage ??sometimes they're to tall--my Studebakers in the coupe line go a strong 6 foot plus--I hate putting tops down if i don't have to---Tom

[Rivguy]

Wow, Your Wife likes an old car and would like you to buy it! I've got to start believing in unicorns!

[Larry Schramm]

1 minute ago, Rivguy said:

Wow, Your Wife likes an old car and would like you to buy it! I've got to start believing in unicorns!

 

My wife likes the old cars too.   We are comfortable in our quasi-retirement.  She now says if I "need" something for the vehicles, just buy it so we can drive them and enjoy them.

[Walter Jones]

27 minutes ago, 13CADDY said:

Just to add a question--Will it fir inside your garage ??sometimes they're to tall--my Studebakers in the coupe line go a strong 6 foot plus--I hate putting tops down if i don't have to---Tom

It will fit height wise but I will have to make some kind of arrangements to keep something somewhere else as our garage already has two cars in it. One can sit outside some but not all the time. 

[Aussi John 1]

Here in Australia Phaetons were called Tourers. I believe Studebaker in the US called them Touring Cars.

 

 I have partially restored 29 Studebaker Commander Eight, see pic.

[ply33]

8 hours ago, Txsailor said:

. . . The plaque on the dash and the paperwork says  RS335E. Its registered as a 29. It has the cooling system with no water pump so from what  I have read that's a early 29. She called it a Phaeton but the registration doesn't say and I don't know the difference between a touring and a phaeton. . .

I am not a good person for knowing the value of cars so I will pass by that discussion.

 

That FedCo number of RS-335-E is for a 1929 Model U Plymouth. From my serial/VIN look up at https://www.ply33.com/Misc/vin

Serial Number	RS-335-E
Found in range	RR-120-P to RD-999-D
Serial	22158 of 58799
Year	1929
Make	Plymouth
Model Code	U
Plant	Detroit
Engine	4 cylinder 170.3 cu.in. L-head
Wheelbase	109 3/4 inches
FedCo Number	RS-335-E

[Walter Jones]

13 minutes ago, ply33 said:

I am not a good person for knowing the value of cars so I will pass by that discussion.

 

That FedCo number of RS-335-E is for a 1929 Model U Plymouth. From my serial/VIN look up at https://www.ply33.com/Misc/vin

Serial Number	RS-335-E
Found in range	RR-120-P to RD-999-D
Serial	22158 of 58799
Year	1929
Make	Plymouth
Model Code	U
Plant	Detroit
Engine	4 cylinder 170.3 cu.in. L-head
Wheelbase	109 3/4 inches
FedCo Number	RS-335-E

That's what I thought from the paperwork but you are the first to confirm it. I haven't looked at the number on the motor but from what I have read its a 29 motor. It has no water pump and the exhaust exits at the front of the manifold. Two things it does have going for it is that the motor does not smoke at all even on startup and the brakes are as good as any manual drum brakes I have ever felt.  The rear main is leaking pretty bad but its also over full on oil.  Maybe it will drip less when it gets lower but I doubt it. I have replaced several rope type rear main seals so as long as it and a pan gasket are available I can fix that. I could even make a pan gasket if I had to.

[wayne sheldon]

The word "phaeton" goes way back to Greek mythology, and has been used to describe many forms of vehicles for traveling in. It often meant open and sporty vehicles, either horse-drawn or mechanically powered. A "touring" car is a more generic term for a similar style, and tends to mean it has sides (either with or without doors?) offering better protection for the passengers.

The two terms have generally been used somewhat interchangeably throughout the first half century of the automobile. The biggest difference really is whatever marketing decided to call it that year.

 

Nice car! That body style would be more desirable now than it was in 1929!

 

One thing. I am not familiar with Plymouths from 1929. Are the four wheel hydraulic brakes internal expanding inside drums? Or external contracting outside the drums? The reason I ask, is that the earlier style external contracting brakes work fine when the weather is dry. But they get very tricky in wet weather (or wet by other means!). You mentioned the brakes, I just wanted to be sure you knew what you had.

[Bloo]

1 hour ago, Txsailor said:

The rear main is leaking pretty bad but its also over full on oil.  Maybe it will drip less when it gets lower but I doubt it.

 

Are you sure it has a seal? Many cars of the period didn't, and oil is for sure going to run out when too full if there's no seal.

 

[richasco]

RE3 is a May 1929 build date. Chrysler changed wire wheel design and hub cap size from the exposed lug nuts to covered sometime in the middle of the production run. I believe if you measure the wheel you will see it is 19”, which would be correct for the car. From what little else I can see, the car looks correct(front bumper excluded). I am not familiar with the 4 cylinder, but I believe it is just an oil slinger at the rear so you will have some seepage until the oil is at the proper level. 
 

Now the real question is do YOU like the car? Can you see yourself enjoying the car? If so, then buy it and enjoy it, you will not find another one. If not, then help her sell it on here.

Edited November 22, 2021 by richasco (see edit history)

[Walter Jones]

From what I have found the brakes are internally expanding and are a Lockheed design. Evidently the wheel cylinders have 2 different size cups and are stepped inside.  They feel about as good as drum brakes ever do so someone has probably rebuilt them. The hand brake is a band that contracts around a drum on the back of the transmission and it works well too.

 

On the rear main. I just assumed it has a seal but I really don't know. On the wheel size I was going off the size molded  on the sidewall.

 

We do like the car in fact my wife has fallen in love with it. We weren't looking for another project or even another old car, we are in the middle of rebuilding a 56BelAir. But heck a car that rare doesn't show up for sale within a mile of my house very often. One good thing is that she is a member of our car club and has a lot going on right now so she isn't going to sell it unless we say we we don't want it. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Txsailor (see edit history)

[ply33]

I don’t think the stepped diameter wheel cylinders were used until much later. See: https://www.ply33.com/Parts/group5#5-S Your cylinders should be the same diameter on all four wheels and should be a straight bore of 1 1/4 inches.

[Walter Jones]

You may be right I was going by a e-bay ad that showed them for a 29. 

2 hours ago, ply33 said:

I don’t think the stepped diameter wheel cylinders were used until much later. See: https://www.ply33.com/Parts/group5#5-S Your cylinders should be the same diameter on all four wheels and should be a straight bore of 1 1/4 inches.

 

[viv w]

The Plymouth model U motor is pretty much a carry over from the Chrysler 52 with a thermo syphon flat head 4 cylinder motor. It is a long time ago that I overhauled the motor on one, but from memory, there is no rear main oil seal or rope seal. It has a one piece cork sump pan gasket. The rear main had 2 cork gaskets that go between the sides of the main bearing cap and the block. It also like a Model A Ford had a drain pipe from the rear main back into the sump and the rear main has a reverse scroll in the white metal to assist oil back into the motor.

 The rear main leak is probably a blocked rear drain pipe, or a previous owner may have fiddled with the oil pressure relief valve, putting too much oil into the bearings. Also check the oil filler tube can breath, if the filler cap seals the filler pipe then any build up of crank case pressure will help blow oil out the rear main.

 Check the right angle drive on the bottom of the distributor, they are pot metal and often swell or crumble with age. If you buy the car I recommend you take this part off the car and check it for stiffness. I had one so tight it would slowly stop the motor from turning. If this part is stiff take it carefully apart and ream out the housing until it can turn freely.

 The door hinges on the tourer are a very simple type, if you open the door fully you should be able to lift the door on the hinge pins and take the door off without tools. They have a simple pin into a hole design. While the pin may be worn, it is more likely that the screws/bolts that hold the hinge to the door or pillar have come loose. If the hinges are not loose  on the attaching bolts then look very carefully at the condition of the wood in the doors and posts, it could be wood rot.

 Brakes should be internal expanding type.

 There should be 2 top support brackets at the back of the car on the sides to support the folding top when it is down, look to see if they are in the car.

 The radiator shell should be chrome plated, wheels and bumpers look correct to me. The 29 Plymouth would have had wire wheels as an option and if they are 20 inch then I would think they are probably correct.

 Value wise, the value of cars of this era are not great, and 10k to 12k may be about right especially as it needs work and rad shell chrome doing. If car is perfect , and on a good day, it might get 15 to 18k.

 

[Walter Jones]

Thanks for the tips. The car isn't perfect but it is pretty nice. On the door hinges I messed with the worst one a little and it had one missing screw and one badly bent one. The bent screw was brass with a slot head. I replaced them with 1/4-20 stainless screws but it didn't help much. I can't see the door or post moving like they are rotten just the hinge flopping around like a old Camaro door with the bushings worn out. I didn't see anything to support the top when it was down but I'll look again next time I go over there. She has been out off town so we haven't discussed the price any further. In fact we haven't discussed it at all in person. I just ask her what she was going to ask by text and she replied the same way. I don't think she is actively trying to sell it yet as she has a lot of other stuff going on. Here are a few of the pictures I took yesterday showing it better.

[Walter Jones]

I haven't got this whole Google drive thing figured out. Are the pictures visible?

[F&J]

56 minutes ago, Txsailor said:

I haven't got this whole Google drive thing figured out. Are the pictures visible?

your newest pics are showing just fine.

 

PS, I took pics of a door hinge to show you a few things.  I have to make arrows on one pic to show some part that might be loose on yours.  I will try to do that tonight, or..

[pkhammer]

I did not realize the market for these types of cars had softened so much in a short time. I started a thread last year about being interested in a nickel era Phaeton or Touring and was hoping to find a decent driver in the $10-$15k range. I was told by many that there was no way I was going to find a decent open car at such a low price. I feel pretty certain that if this Plymouth had been sitting at Hershey last month with a $12K price on the window it would've sold before the owner had a chance to make his first trip to the Porta-Potty.

Edited November 23, 2021 by pkhammer
misspelling (see edit history)

[Captain Harley]

Even if the bumpers on the car now are not the "original" type.  They sure do look good!  And didn't somebody mention that bumpers were optional for the year?  If so

I would think any bumper (aftermarket or otherwise) that fits and looks good would be right.  As long as the god of "era correct" is satisfied.🤩

 

Capt. Harley😉

 

Skirts are for women and not car fenders!

[keiser31]

59 minutes ago, Captain Harley said:

Even if the bumpers on the car now are not the "original" type.  They sure do look good!  And didn't somebody mention that bumpers were optional for the year?  If so

I would think any bumper (aftermarket or otherwise) that fits and looks good would be right.  As long as the god of "era correct" is satisfied.🤩

 

Capt. Harley😉

 

Skirts are for women and not car fenders!

Optional bumpers mentioned in the article I posted above.

[wayne sheldon]

Unusual that a USA built car would have had optional no bumpers in 1929, however, someone had to be last? In 1927, a whole lot of American built cars still had optional bumpers, including Buick, my Paige (mine does have the factory optional Weed bumper!), Ford's model T, and probably fifty other marques. 1928 had many cars making bumpers standard equipment, many of them mid-year.

Of course, for a few years after, the after-market manufacturers continued making and selling after-market options. So if the Plymouth left the dealer without a bumper, it could very likely have had an after-market optional bumper installed soon thereafter. And many automobile dealers often sold after-market accessories as well, so they sometimes installed after-market items (including bumpers!) before the cars were sold.

[viv w]

I had a good look at the extra pictures you posted, the car looks a nice useable car and even with its faults it will be a nice driver that you can drive, enjoy and upgrade if you wish. The vehicle color scheme I do not think is an original factory color scheme, but I stand to be corrected. It is pretty in those colors, but to a purist that may affect the value.

  I Don't want to be negative about the car but a few other things I noticed,

It would appear to have the wrong headlights, they should be more dome shaped than acorn style. There is a pair on ebay today for 149,99 the pair.

 The tail lights are not correct, they should have a different rim with a beehive lens, these can be found and replaced.

 The radiator cap does not look right.

 Does the car have all its side curtains?

 Hope you strike a deal and go out and use the car.

 

 

 

 

[Walter Jones]

28 minutes ago, viv w said:

I had a good look at the extra pictures you posted, the car looks a nice useable car and even with its faults it will be a nice driver that you can drive, enjoy and upgrade if you wish. The vehicle color scheme I do not think is an original factory color scheme, but I stand to be corrected. It is pretty in those colors, but to a purist that may affect the value.

  I Don't want to be negative about the car but a few other things I noticed,

It would appear to have the wrong headlights, they should be more dome shaped than acorn style. There is a pair on ebay today for 149,99 the pair.

 The tail lights are not correct, they should have a different rim with a beehive lens, these can be found and replaced.

 The radiator cap does not look right.

Does the car have all it's side curtains?

 

I have been emailing with Jim Benjaminson who I was told was a expert on these. I sent him the pictures but haven't heard back yet. From the video he said the headlight shells  and crossbars were probably correct but the lamps weren't.  I am sure he will notice a lot of other stuff either right or wrong  when he looks at the pictures. The paint colors may not be correct but everyone that sees it really likes it. I haven't talked to the owner in much detail about it because she was out of town when I told her we might be interested in it. This started out with me getting it going for the parade. She left me access to the car while she was gone. I don't know if she is back yet or not. I'll ask her about the curtains when I do talk to her. 

 

I am not a purist even though I appreciate cars that are all original, and try my best not to alter original features on my projects. As long as it looks correct for the era I wouldn't be too picky for my use although I know it affects the value for some. After all no one is going to be able to compare it to a correct one at the local car show, Jim said there were only a few off them in the whole country.

 

 

 

[old car fan]

Doesn't  matter, love it,buy it.nobody makes  money, you can't  put a price  on  enjoying the  car. Different  game nowadays. 

[old car fan]

Live every day, die once 

[wayne sheldon]

A bit about the color. And this really should not affect your decisions about the car much if at all. 

I don't know Plymouths of 1929 very well. So, it may well be possible the color was a factory option? Or not?

Similar colors were used, on some cars, in that era. However, it was not a common color combination IN THAT ERA! Unfortunately, during the 1980s and '90s and well into the 2000s, varying beige/brown/yellowish combinations were used way too often on cars they did not belong on. Also unfortunately, most people doing so chose poorly matching colors, and wound up with cars that look really bad.

This particular car, at least to me, has very pleasing colors. I like it this way, whether it is factory correct, or not. If, by chance, it does turn out to be a factory color? I would brag about it and shout it from the rooftops! If not a factory color? I would happily have it and enjoy it (except that I want something two years earlier at least).

 

Good luck however you go.