Ouch. London Sticks It To Classic Car Owners

[Xander Wildeisen]

https://autos.yahoo.com/london-sticks-classic-car-owners-180000599.html

[rocketraider]

Invariably, anytime a statute has a punitive fine attached, raising revenue is part of the deal. If one government entity succeeds at it, the rest will take notice. Similar to Dr Pavlov's renowned slobbering dogs.

[Terry Bond]

Looking into my all-seeing carbide headlamp, I predict the London-Brighton Run will go off without a hitch.

Terry

[Studemax]

Sounds like it's high time for another revolution in Old Blighty.

[1935Packard]

Better link that describes how this program will work: https://www.hagerty.co.uk/articles/news-articles/what-the-ultra-low-emissions-zone-means-for-londons-classic-car-owners/

 

Basically, if your car isn't compliant with their emissions standards, and you drive in the central London area on a particular day, their cameras will spot you and automatically fine you the equivalent of about $18 for the day.  

[1937hd45]

[ojh]

Pay to drive our classics in the city? it should be the other way around if they could even get us to drive in that mess.  Not just London, I wouldn't consider driving in any city.  We are meant to enjoy them.

[padgett]

London is about "ultra low emissions" and is just one European city thinking "electric only". More disturbing is "Nevada has looked to enact its own extreme rules for restricting classic cars"

[46 woodie]

I think what they need to do is to actually define what a so called "classic car" is. We have people in N.Y that have so called Historic plates on very modern vehicles. In N.Y. any vehicle that is over 25 years old can qualify for Historic plates. One guy driving around town has a mid '90's pick up truck and has the Historic plate on it. Some do it to evade restrictions, for tax purposes and insurance costs. Many of these cars are driven every day. Most true antique/classic cars are driven about once a month or trailered. I would venture to say, any car driven on the London to Brighton Run is probably driven once a year.

[AL1630]

3 hours ago, padgett said:

London is about "ultra low emissions" and is just one European city thinking "electric only". More disturbing is "Nevada has looked to enact its own extreme rules for restricting classic cars"

Wasn't there a thread about Nevada's new rules a couple months ago? As I remember it was mostly to stop their problems with people putting one time fee antique plates on their daily drivers to save a few bucks. The headline seems a little sensational to me.

[padgett]

Florida is "A Historic al Motor Vehicle (30 years old or older)." but also "The vehicle described above is ONLY used in exhibitions, parades or public displays". There is also a reduced fee for a regular plate & I have those.

 

[Pilgrim65]

Although I live 70 miles from London and my classic is too new , my friend is a Marshall and from discussions most of the participants can afford 650 but think it scandalous normal classic  car hobbyists should be burdened with more expense 

someone said time for another revolution, think last was Charles the first, so due , but I think historians say that was civil war , think french hold the revolution honour 1793 .

British folks are discontented with many things , lockdown , big brother and government controls , pc correctness gone mad , but I think post covid is going to be harsh , we owe more now than we did after WW2 

paying for stuff your grandad made and helped us .  So think this just the start of ways to recoup some the debt  and if there going to charge londerers won’t long before all cities here charge us classic car owners this levy and others they are dreaming up. Beam me up Scottie !

[padgett]

Is this in the same area as the Congestion Charge (£15/day £5,460/year now) ? Or the LEZ or ULEZ zones (more £).

 

And here I thought Taxachusetts was bad...

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by padgett (see edit history)

[1935Packard]

2 hours ago, AL1630 said:

Wasn't there a thread about Nevada's new rules a couple months ago? As I remember it was mostly to stop their problems with people putting one time fee antique plates on their daily drivers to save a few bucks. The headline seems a little sensational to me.

 

Yup.    As I wrote then, in February: 

 

***************

 

Apparently, Nevada law inadvertently created a loophole in 2011 by allowing any 20-year-old car to be registered as a classic car and to not have to satisfy smog requirements.  Given that the average age of cars on the road in the western US is 13 years old, allowing any 20-year-old car to avoid all smog requirements seems pretty problematic. So if your 2001-or-earlier car can't pass smog standards from its day, you can just have it plated as a classic.  The proposed new law would apply the smog test standards to older cars (based on what they had to satisfy when new, I assume), and provides funding for low-income residents to help bring their cars into compliance.  

 

More details here, at the source for the story above:

https://sierranevadaally.org/2021/02/02/nevada-lawmakers-plan-ambitious-green-initiatives/

***************

 

Full thread here:  

 

 

[JACK M]

45 minutes ago, 1935Packard said:

(based on what they had to satisfy when new, I assume)

 

Careful what you assume because this would make sense.

I don't see government and making sense actually happening.

 

[Peter Gariepy]

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2017/08/05/lifestyle/end-road-vintage-cars-japan/

 

Japan has taxed older cars higher than new car for decades.  

[Grimy]

2 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:

 

Japan has taxed older cars higher than new car for decades.  

But Japan essentially has state welfare for new car manufacturers:  It has been 25 years since I served there, but there was a quadrennial, extremely detailed, costly, inspection called by US Forces "JCI" which required, inter alia, 60% left on all brakes.  It was extremely difficult to get a 10-year-old car to pass JCI.  Accordingly, it was unusual (at the time, at least) to see anything older than 8 years on the road at all.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, 1935Packard said:

 

 

Apparently, Nevada law inadvertently created a loophole in 2011 by allowing any 20-year-old car to be registered as a classic car and to not have to satisfy smog requirements.  

 

 

 

I read that Nevada article and got the same message.

Just because the government cannot tell the difference between a true classic car and a car that is simply 20 years old, does not mean they are the same.

 

Legislation is not validation and using no other qualifier other than age, to determine what should be considered a classic is laughably flawed and inaccurate.  In fact it's the exact opposite, as 46 woodie clearly pointed out with his example of a mid 90's pickup truck sporting Historic plates.  I appreciate that many states fees are higher for certain vehicles and how quickly the public would see what the government does not; a glaring loophole and a chance to license their extruded plastic, computer controlled 1980's/90's vehicles, with their engine blocks cast in Mexico, as true "historic vehicles" when, in fact, they are merely daily transportation.   I believe the only ones arguing in favor of historic designation for cars of this era, are the owners of cars from this era.  Nobody from the true classic world advocates on their behalf, nor should they and I think I have a valid argument for this point.

I did not coin the phrase "In order to be exclusive, one must exclude" but it is a precise statement for the classic/historic car hobby.  That may be considered hard lines by some but ruminate on this; if not used, eventually every single vehicle, foreign and domestic, will enter this substrata of the automotive sphere until the authentic classics become (quickly) outnumbered with the addition of new qualifiers with every calendar year.  True classics and their owners will become the minority which  will only serve to water down any voice that may still exist among them.

 

I know this has been debated ad infinitum but, perhaps now is the time for a qualified group to decide what criteria will be used to determine exactly where the break should be, work with local and state governments to campaign for legislation to protect their exclusivity.  A lesser group of American motoring vehicles of historic significance will draw much less ire and much less scrutiny from money hungry state governments than an ever growing group of smog-dodgers ......which includes all those mid 1990's pickup trucks.

 

Cheers, Greg

 

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by GregLaR (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

Well put.

[BucketofBolts]

I prayer that legislators in California where I live do not read this article about London. 

[steven 123]

i am afraid people like me who enjoy purchasing old cars and fixing them up would cost a fortune....i like the chase and hunt to find a gem.....travailing and meeting people to buy parts driving for a short time looking before the next adventure.....my wife laughs because i enjoying just setting in the garage looking at the car until i sell it then moving on... i hope i dont need a license for every car because i enjoy driving them with the grand kids evey week 

[Frank DuVal]

Oh Greg, now you are going to re-start the AACA debate of whether ANY  vehicle 25 years old or older is allowed into the club! If I can join AACA with my 1996 Mazda Miata, then why is it not a classic car? Right, because classic is a subjective term, so one should NOT write a law about classic or antique car without a specified year. They do try to make the law not apply to "everyday drivers" but what is an everyday driver? It seems everytime I drive my 1994 Chevrolet Caprice wagon I am displaying it to the public. Now, whether the public wants to view it is not up to me.😉  And if it is all original with east coast rust, then all the more original! You west coast people have it too easy.🤣

 

 

 

Full dosclosure, I don't own the Miata example, and I run regular plates on the Caprice.

[maok]

If it happens in my city (Brisbane Australia) I will have to raisemy fee for the art deco tour.

 

[padgett]

Ok currently have four over 30, two more over 20, and two at a decade. Older cars all had less than 7,500 built and except for the '70 all were over $25k new. Only criteria left is opinion.

[1935Packard]

12 hours ago, JACK M said:

 

Careful what you assume because this would make sense.

I don't see government and making sense actually happening.

 

 

 

Here's the text of the Nevada bill. Looks complicated:  https://www.leg.state.nv.us/App/NELIS/REL/81st2021/Bill/7897/Text

[Guest]

2 hours ago, padgett said:

Ok currently have four over 30, two more over 20, and two at a decade. Older cars all had less than 7,500 built and except for the '70 all were over $25k new. Only criteria left is opinion.

Your offering of vehicles from the 1990's and 2000's has validated every point in my post.

[padgett]

Believe it or don't but there have been interesting cars from every decade, mine just all have factory AC (Florida - probably hit 90 today). Point is that we have so many more choices than when the AACA was formed. I suspect that some or even many of the original cars would be considered restomods today. It is all a matter of context.

 

ps Nevada does not sound that bad, about like my antique car policy: "must not be used for general transportation, defined as being driven more than 5,000 miles during the immediately preceding year, but may be used for club activities, exhibitions, tours, parades or similar activities and for such other uses as are necessary for the operation and maintenance of the vehicle.

Edited May 20, 2021 by padgett (see edit history)

[normanpitkin]

All vehicles over 40 years old don't pay the ULEZ charge in LONDON.

 

[JACK M]

38 minutes ago, padgett said:

for such other uses as are necessary for the operation and maintenance of the vehicle.

 

What turns out to be my DD is one time registered.

I am sure it is known around town because I drive it daily and its a small town. (although I don't know any of the cops)

I figure since its better to drive em than to leave em parked that will be my story should I become familiar with said cops.

[padgett]

"Nobody from the true classic world " definitely leaves me out, I am interested in almost all cars (have trouble with a 60 Ford and a Daimler SP 250). And trucks, And airplanes. And 46,328 ton triple screw steamships.

[Frank DuVal]

Your offering of vehicles from the 1990's and 2000's has validated every point in my post.

 

How? Are you saying just because you like nothing built in the 1990s and 2000s that everyone should hate them and throw them away?

 

That does not seem to be in the spirit of AACA.🥵

 

Your precious cars cars were just used cars when they were 10 years old. Outdated, depreciated. People always asking when are you going to buy a new car and junk that one. Only a few models of antique and classic vehicles have retention rates above 10%.

 

 

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said:

 

How? Are you saying just because you like nothing built in the 1990s and 2000s that everyone should hate them and throw them away?

 

 

 

 

You are assuming way too much Frank.

Nowhere in my post did I say anything even close to that, but I can see you are offended by my view that one must provide more than a simple calendar date to qualify for "collector/historic" status.

I owned many current cars through the 1990's/2000's and they were mostly fine cars that served their purposes.  I also have a couple of early edition Charles Dickens books and a few issues of MAD Magazine.  Both are entertaining in their own right but the difference in their standing over time is a gaping void.

 

[Pilgrim65]

Over 40 years I’m ok then 😃

[padgett]

Yes "Humor in a Jugular Vein" is still funny.

[Pfeil]

3 hours ago, padgett said:

And 46,328 ton triple screw steamships.

Olympic, Titanic, Britannic

 Wowza or

Edited May 20, 2021 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[46 woodie]

One thing I do know is that the term, "One Time Users Fee" will never be adopted by the State of New York. If these clowns thought they could get away with a monthly fee they would try it. New York has a yearly registration fee and a yearly inspection fee of all cars, antique or modern.

[Pfeil]

2 hours ago, GregLaR said:

You are assuming way too much Frank.

Nowhere in my post did I say anything even close to that, but I can see you are offended by my view that one must provide more than a simple calendar date to qualify for "collector/historic" status.

I owned many current cars through the 1990's/2000's and they were mostly fine cars that served their purposes.  I also have a couple of early edition Charles Dickens books and a few issues of MAD Magazine.  Both are entertaining in their own right but the difference in their standing over time is a gaping void.

 

one must provide more than a simple calendar date to qualify for "collector/historic" status.  ????

 

What might that be? Does that mean you deny ( registration as a classic or antique) some younger person who grew up with a interest to collect a 2000 Buick Regal GS like his father once had. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What you consider too new for you seems old to a younger person. Ask your grandkids what old is.

If you want to attract younger people into this hobby you need to consider what they want and what they consider a antique.

The 20 or 25 year cut off is really the only fair way to welcome all.

The only thing where all bets are off is modifying a car.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[padgett]

Major issue for me is that after the 70's GM only paired the interesting drivetrains with an automagic. e.g. 89 Turbo Trans Am is really interesting except for the tranny.

 

Part of the reason I quit judging was because some thought I was being too strict.

 

ps only the outer props were driven by the boilers. Also the Britannic (nee Gigantic) sank faster.

[Borough Essex]

The original article (designed to stir people up rather than inform) omitted the not unimportant fact that there is a rolling 40 year cut off. The Hagerty article is excellent and informative, allowing for an informed view on the topic.

[Guest]

Pfeil, thanks for the belly laugh!

I would be very interested to meet any  "younger person with an interest in a 2000 Buick".😄

Edited May 20, 2021 by GregLaR (see edit history)