Professional restoration shops length of time to finish car data

[DAVES89]

There was a series of posts about a year ago from a guy who took his car to a shop for a repaint wanting a certain level of quality for a price, and got back a better paint job at 3times the price he wanted to pay. Anyone remember the link?

 I found it, the huys handle was 69GTO

Edited August 27, 2017 by DAVES89 (see edit history)

[Dynaflash8]

On 8/26/2017 at 11:49 AM, Rusty_OToole said:

Last April I took my 66 Dodge to a body shop. I estimate it should take 1 - 2 weeks to fix, based on 50 years of fixing cars, 20 of them spent working in a body shop. The car still isn't done. Although it was promised it would be done shortly 3 or 4 times. This is typical.

Hallelulia!!!!! 

[60FlatTop]

I am not much for having work done for me. When I was young and tried it my expectations were rarely met. Many times I retrieved my unfinished parts after a long delay and did it myself.

Economically I can buy the specialty tools, learn and do the work myself as many times as required to get it right, and I am happy.

 

Years ago a body guy I knew showed off his paint job . I knew that he had done it three times to get it right. As a customer, one would have to pay for each of those three times.

 

Around 1980 I bought a '70 Wildcat convertible from a body shop/dealer. The car had rust in the rear wheel wells. The repair was part of the deal. I was ready to buy. He said he'd sell the car, but was busy, and would fix it in about 2 weeks. I said OK, I'll pay you when you are done. That wasn't his plan. I think I picked it up and paid in about 3 days. I always want it now or yesterday, works good.

 

I learned that for every $1,000 I was will to spend I could get about $4,000 of someone's investment. That has been very consistent.

 

Once I dropped off a pair of 19" Model A wheels to be painted for a Smith Motor Compressor I had. I picked them up, in primer, a year and a half later. The guy who ran the shop said :I don't know what you are so antsy about."

 

The absolute last thing I want to hear is "I think I can save you some money." That ends the relationship immediately. It didn't take much to figure that meant it was going to be painful.

 

Look up the actual definition of "trust me". There are situations where one has the skills to bring in, on one hand, what it takes to farm out the job, on the other. In most instances the balance doesn't work and you are relying on another. Trust me, you don't want to be there. At least I don't.

 

I'm going out in the sun and work on my tractor!

[cxgvd]

Why is it people just do not do what they say, I had a conversation with another hobbyist just today and he thought it may be a power trip or leverage over the customer.  Could be don't know.  I dropped of five demountable rims at a local shop for sandblasting with a two day turnaround promised, picked them up yesterday after twelve days.  I have a small job for two bearing adapting sleeves at a machine shop in my town, half hour job has been there three weeks, not ready yet.  I have a small sheet metal repair job at a local restoration company almost a year and a half, not finished yet?  Honestly an hour to do the work, why would they want the parts cluttering up the place?  Used to say no hurry but my wife told me not to say that and I quit.  Please just complete the work and get paid. Frustrated in Southern Ontario.  Gary

[Dynaflash8]

3 hours ago, cxgvd said:

Why is it people just do not do what they say, I had a conversation with another hobbyist just today and he thought it may be a power trip or leverage over the customer.  Could be don't know.  I dropped of five demountable rims at a local shop for sandblasting with a two day turnaround promised, picked them up yesterday after twelve days.  I have a small job for two bearing adapting sleeves at a machine shop in my town, half hour job has been there three weeks, not ready yet.  I have a small sheet metal repair job at a local restoration company almost a year and a half, not finished yet?  Honestly an hour to do the work, why would they want the parts cluttering up the place?  Used to say no hurry but my wife told me not to say that and I quit.  Please just complete the work and get paid. Frustrated in Southern Ontario.  Gary

You tell me!  It is universal today, not just in restoration............it can be selling your house or coming to fix your washing machine or worse yet have your house painted or tile installed.........................anything!  And to make it still worse, they don't answer the phone or return phone calls.  Where have people today learned how to be so common?  We can blame it on TV, schools, parenting, lack of church......all of them and more.  I have no answers.

[John348]

34 minutes ago, Dynaflash8 said:

You tell me!  It is universal today, not just in restoration............it can be selling your house or coming to fix your washing machine or worse yet have your house painted or tile installed.........................anything!  And to make it still worse, they don't answer the phone or return phone calls.  Where have people today learned how to be so common?  We can blame it on TV, schools, parenting, lack of church......all of them and more.  I have no answers.

 

Very true, but my experience of that usually goes with the lower priced vendors.  

[Joe in Canada]

A friend and club member  took a rare desirable car to one of the shops that is now on TV. After a period of time he showed up at the shop unannounced with some help and two trailers. Paid the balance owing of the bill and loaded it up and hauled it out. Body and paint was done very well but the chassis plus engine had to be redone. Do your homework real well  before leaving your car at any shop to have some work done on it 

 I have been taking my time looking for a brass or nickel car in need of a restoration but I prefer to do my own work. I did buy a 1915 T in the spring with an older restoration but at the present it is taking up floor space while I am scratching my head what to do with it.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[billorn]

1 hour ago, Joe in Canada said:

A friend and club member  took a rare desirable car to one of the shops that is now on TV. After a period of time he showed up at the shop unannounced with some help and two trailers. Paid the balance owing of the bill and loaded it up and hauled it out. Body and paint was done very well but the chassis plus engine had to be redone. Do your homework real well  before leaving your car at any shop to have some work done on it 

 I have been taking my time looking for a brass or nickel car in need of a restoration but I prefer to do my own work. I did buy a 1915 T in the spring with an older restoration but at the present it is taking up floor space while I am scratching my head what to do with it.

 

Hmmmm, a Canadian shop now on TV...

[trimacar]

I worked in a well known restoration shop for two years.  There should be no expectation whatsoever that any worker at any restoration shop cares what you spend on the restoration work.  One is working by the hour, knowing that the customer wants an excellent product, not much gets done in an hour, and thus costs add up.  There's no motivation to speed up the work you do, mistakes made mean doing it over, and the customer still pays for that too.

 

That's one reason I left that work, and it's the lesson learned that when I work with someone now on upholstery work, I balance hours billed with fair work given.  I eat a lot of hours of my life, because I worked on something too long (in my opinion) or I made a mistake.  I recently visited another restoration shop that has the same philosophy, at the end of the week look at what's done versus what's billed, and see if they match, but I can tell you that's the exception and not the rule in the restoration business.

 

Think about it, there's no motivation to do anything faster or cheaper, when you're billing by the hour.....

[CarNucopia]

My '30 Buick took one year for a complete, frame-off restoration. 

[1937hd45]

Are there any "Owner wants to help" stories? I know of one Model A  restoration that is finished, but the owner sent the engine out to be rebuilt in Pennsylvania well over a year ago. Bob

[Janousek]

I have a 53' 356 in the shop right now where the owner wanted to do his own engine.  That was two years ago and I'm still waiting for the engine.  It's a vw for crying out loud.  I could've done that engine in a few days.  I like the owner otherwise he would have recieved the car on dollies a year ago.

 

Heres my take on time coming from a one man band that does as much in house as possible.  If a full resto takes over a year then they aren't working on your car.  Plain and simple.  Other priorities or more important customers are bumping you out of the way.  Not turning away work just to get a job in the shop to sit for six months.  It all adds up.  Their are some exceptions to this time but most things can be done in this time frame.  

 

I think a lot of the high pricing comes from shops with several employees that get paid regardless of how many hours they actually worked on your car that week.  I have a hunch if they work 3 hours on your car then your getting charged a full day.  Just a hunch but I'd be a rich man if I could command the numbers Ed speaks of.   

[alsancle]

Ed is talking about the 10 most well known shops in the country that are focused on Pebble.  I think everybody else is talking about the other 500-1000 shops.   I've been on both sides of it.  There are as many customers with unreasonable expectations for cost, schedule or quality as there are mismanaged shops.   This conversation is all over the map because the word "restoration" has limitless meaning.

 

Bob,  I think the saying goes something this:  "I charge $50.00 an hour to work on your car,  $75.00 an hour if you watch and $100.00 an hour if you help".

[John_S_in_Penna]

On 8/26/2017 at 6:47 PM, edinmass said:

... As far as restoration shop hourly rate, it runs anywhere from 85 to 225 per hour. The shop I know of that is at 225 is very busy, and isn't taking any new projects for about nine months from what I can see....

 

South-central Pennsylvania, near Carlisle and Hershey,

has quite a number of businesses related to the old-car hobby.

Top-notch restoration shops may charge $50 to $60 per hour,

though one nationally known here charges $75.  And these

shops turn out Grand National-winning cars of all types.

 

I know of a 1936 Lincoln LeBaron-bodied coupe which, 

around 2008, had a total restoration at a well-reputed small shop.

The cost was a little over $200,000, and the car won a Senior

Grand National in 2009.  After the owner passed on, the 

car sold for $89,000.

 

Some parts of the country are more economical than others.

I believe that big cities, urban areas, and California and the 

U. S. Northeast, are higher than the norm.  Thank goodness

for smaller towns and rural areas, the heart of the country! 

[Durant Mike]

I have two cars that I'm restoring the 1928 and the 1971. Both cars, I'm doing the work I can, disassembly, blasting and painting small parts, farming out what I can't do due to limited space and HOA, but I find it takes even those that do this for a living an ungodly time to get things done.  I sent my starter to a well known restorer in Michigan for a complete rebuild to factory new condition on my 1928. Try 7 months to get it back. It came back perfect, like it came out of the box, but a long time. Sent him my Generator/distributor due to the quality of the restoration, it's been 9 months so far for that and it still is not done.  Took my differential and rear running gear for a blast and paint to a local restoration shop, it's been 6 months for that so far.  In defense of the shop locally I deal with. When I took some parts for him to blast and paint for me, he had 6 workers in the shop, 3 experiences older individuals who have been in the business for awhile. When I went back to pick up parts there was only the owner in the shop. I asked what happened and he said that the older gentleman who were real good, one had surgery on his wrist and the other did not want to work 40+ hours anymore. The other three from a community college auto body/restoration program, didn't realize the work was dirty and hot in the summer in a non air conditioned shop and quit. They were all young people.  Owner told me he can't keep the young ones, because they don't want to work even though he pays them a decent wage.  Too hot, too dirty, not working on Japanese imports but old cars etc is the excuses.  I'm so frustrated with my restorations as I finally have put aside the finances to finish my cars, but can't get them done in a reasonable time.  And waiting for parts to be restored holds up my restoration efforts.

[Restorer32]

Interesting series of posts. Under no circumstances would we work for one fellow who posted above. Several others seem to exhibit a genuine hate for professional restorers and just assume going in that they are going to be cheated. We wouldn't work for those folks either. Total restoration in 1000 hours? It's not going to happen unless your standards are very low. Usually when customers are unhappy with delays and cost you will find that they shopped the car around to get the lowest price. You get what you pay for. About 1/3 of the projects we get come out of just such situations. Customer gave the project to a body shop as "fill in work" or negotiated a price which the restorer could never meet and remain in business. After spending a lot of money and not seeing much progress they pull the car out and send it to a shop that can and will actually finish the job. Are there crooked resto shops out there? Of course there are but you don't stay in business long cheating people. All shops that do good work for a reasonable price are busy. In our case we work and bill one way only. We take no deposit up front. We bill monthly and expect to be paid monthly. Our hourly rate is reasonable. At the end of the week we look at the work accomplished to see if the customer is getting his money's worth and adjust the bill accordingly.. We sell whatever talent and experience we have by the hour. The customer is free to buy as many hours of our time as he wants. Hopefully he buys enough of our time and talent to complete the car. Most times they do, rarely does a car leave here not finished. No resto shop guarantees their work but we would expect any car we do to win at least an AACA Grand National First if shown. This system has worked well for us for 38 years. We have many repeat customers. One in particular is on his 5th full frame off resto with us. He visits about once a year, sometimes twice. We have done restorations for folks who have never been in the shop.

Picking a restoration shop boils down to two things, reputation and trust. Find a shop with a good reputation that you would trust with your check book. Let them do their job and don't nickle and dime them to death. Finally, any shop that will give you a fixed price up front is either very inexperienced or desperate for the work. In both cases it is unlikely that you will get what you think you are paying for.

[chistech]

Are full restoration shops charging in the $50-$75 area? No one in this area is under $100, more like $125,  I've got customers sending cars clear across the country to me, and I charge more than $50per. That does include everything that I personally do like wood work, interior, machining parts on the lathe or miller, engine/drive train/chassis painting, etc. For a full, high quality paint job, my paint shop charges $8-11,000 depending on body condition and this is for average 27-32 chevy type bodied cars. Of course I send them fully disassembled and on a rotisserie so their only job is to work the body and parts to paint. No assembly or disassembly. I have everyone of my customers telling me my pricing is very affordable compared to others yet people are posting here pricing less than what I charge. Just curious if that price range is correct as I haven't found those prices anywhere.

[39BuickEight]

I don't know about restoration shop rates, but industry standard insurance body shop rates vary across Kentucky by as much as 40%.  I could easily see restoration shop rates in the same general size area vary the same-a few hundred miles or so. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by 39BuickEight (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

I'd really like to know how many times the body and fenders go on and off the chassis of a "Pebble Beach" restoration before the first coat of paint is applied? Getting all the gaps perfect and fender alignment has to take up a huge amount of time. Bob

Edited October 13, 2017 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[cahartley]

I shouldn't even post this here because the fella from whom I bought my Confederate frequents this joint....... 

One of the two body shop owners in the village stopped at the shop several days ago.

He asked what did you pay for the car?

I told him to look the car over first........then we'd talk.

I asked him what do you suppose it would cost to make a good, original, car look the way it is.

He laughed and said $25-30,000....... 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I also find this entire topic very interesting -and although I am generally a lurker here, if I may I would like to offer my thoughts on a comment or two from above.

 

I concur with Mr. Hammers on several of his comments, -and although I don’t know all the facts from both sides of the Impala restoration, I don’t believe I would have been interested in consummating or continuing a business relationship either based on the owner's demands as they were stated above.  FWIW, I often have potential clients ask me for business references and personal recommendations from former clients.  I gladly do so however some potential clients are so detailed in their qualifying efforts that they almost go to the point of asking me for a P&L statement and my last three years of tax returns.    Naturally my analogy is tongue in cheek however I have often wondered if I were to ask them for references on themselves including financial statements, how would they respond!  THAT would be an interesting switch!!

I understand some folk's feelings or recommendation about not paying the shop any money up front, however please allow me to share 3 circumstances that quantify my reasoning for now requiring my customer to pay a fee upfront.  My first incident happened about 20 years ago when I was just getting started professionally.  This was either my 3^rd or 4^th project and everything this man wanted I was willing to do.  It was a ’31 Chev. Coach and the engine was supposedly rebuilt already but I was to disassemble and detail the chassis, media-strip the paint and bodywork & paint all the sheetmetal, and  put a Hampton interior in it.  Again, this has been awhile ago but his budget was something like $15k and I was a one-man army charging about $20 an hour.  So I get everything disassembled (-and naturally found hidden issues) and then I found the deteriorated wood behind the original upholstery that he told me would not need to be replaced.  Lacking prudent judgment on my part, he & I had made an agreement that when I had completed 1/3^rd of the work, he would come inspect it and I would get my first progress payment.  That time finally came and there was always an excuse of why he could not inspect or pay at that time.  As it turned out, the engine had not been rebuilt as he initially indicated, and so on his approval I had sub-ed out some engine machine work.  About this same time their work was completed and they wanted their money, ...and long story short, the owner finally told me just to keep the car.  Now I had about $6k of my work invested in a car that would likely only have brought 3k-4k back then as a total basket case.  And, I needed my money worse than I needed a two-door Chevrolet that was now sans an engine.  This one hurt however not enough that I would learn my lesson.

Next scenario, I had a Model-A pick-up in the shop that we were restoring, and we had finished all of the metalwork (-and it was rough!!).  We also had the cab & doors bodyworked and in paint, and was partially complete on rebuilding the running gear.  I had about $10k invested and had invoiced the client requesting a progress payment.  Approximately two weeks after invoicing him, Hurricane Katrina slammed New Orleans and in one night my client and his wife both lost their places of employment, and they lost their home and all belongings to wind & water.  Probably a month goes by and he calls explaining the situation.  He tells me he does not have the money to pay me and could I wait for a few months until he can get back onto his feet with insurance settlement, etc.  I did like any of y’all would have done and sympathetically said “Sure” even though I needed the money to make payroll, pay bills, etc.   Unfortunately a couple of months turned into a couple of years, and I finally was able to track him down out in Colorado.  We talked by phone and he said he was finally making some headway and was planning to give me a call.  We make some arrangements for progress payments to begin however after a few months of them not arriving I called him at his place of employment to learn he had been released shortly after our conversation.  To this day, I have no idea where he is, nor could I even sell his pile of parts for enough to even begin recouping the money he owes.

 The 3rd and final straw was a man from NJ that inherited his father’s roadster along with a sizeable inheritance.  He wanted it totally restored and had it shipped to me along with a $3k check to get started.  We dismantled the vehicle completely, did a sizeable amount of sheetmetal work, and was doing bodywork and component restoration.  I invoiced him when we reached $5k owed however we kept on working on the car.  The excuses he gave were all legitimate as to why he had been tardy on forwarding a progress payment so we kept on going until we reached the $10k mark which at that time I halted the project.  A few more weeks go by and then I get a phone call from him telling me he had changed his mind on the project and was cutting his losses.  He told me he was now going to use the inheritance money to buy a motorhome for him and his girlfriend to travel in, and that I could just keep the car.  I explained to him I didn’t want the car and that I wanted the money instead.  He told me to sell the car and keep all the money.  The same situation as above in that a dismantled vehicle won’t bring enough to pay the invoice amount. I spoke with an attorney and the costs were too great for the risk I would take in hoping to collect the outstanding amount.  Lesson finally learned.

THAT in a nutshell is why I now work on a ‘declining balance’ accounting system with my clients where I require an upfront payment.  The risks are just too great to take a chance on something happening to the client, -or them just changing their mind that leaves me hanging.  Naturally I understand the customer’s fear in this however I trust you also understand the fear from the shop owner perspective, and the crippling effect it can have.

 

Ohh and to answer the O/P question, in my shop many circumstances vary the timeline but generally 1½ years on average.

 

 

[SC38dls]

Shop rate — $75.00 hour

if you help shop rate —. $150.00 hour

if you need it on time as promised —. Priceless 

[edinmass]

On 8/29/2017 at 8:27 PM, 1937hd45 said:

I'd really like to know how many times the body and fenders go on and off the chassis of a "Pebble Beach" restoration before the first coat of pain is applied? Getting all the gaps perfect and fender alignment has to take up a huge amount of time. Bob

 

On our last car the fenders went on and off eight times. It was a decent car, and scored 94 points before we restored it. Yes, we did a total on a 94 point car. 

[trimacar]

I'd add that upholstery is the same way.  To make a pre war convertible top from scratch, the fabric is on and off the top bows at LEAST 10 times, and probably more.....it's all in getting the correct fit, and what many don't understand is that a straight line on a top is not a straight line on the cutting table......compound curves have an influence!

[Rusty_OToole]

On 8/26/2017 at 1:51 PM, mercer09 said:

Rusty,

I would find another shop or pay a bit more. the aggravation wouldnt be worth it to me.

Boy wouldn't that be great. Those things don't seem to make any difference. Some guys may want to get the job done and off the property as quick as they can but most don't seem to care.