What is the value of R12 refrigerant?

[John_S_in_Penna]

Someone I know has a leftover canister of R12 (Freon) refrigerant.

He is in the heating and air conditioning business and is cleaning

out some "unnecessary" old supplies.  His last canister, he estimates,

has 25 pounds of R12 left of the original 30 pounds. 

 

I've heard that the price has come down since it's no longer being

produced and no longer being used much in the United States.  In fact,

he said that old-car owners are really the only ones who would have a use for it.

 

He offered it to me for $250 for those 25 pounds.  What you do think?

And it was probably used originally for non-automotive applications.

Would that canister be configured for automotive use?

Edited September 21, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Not worth breaking the law and the substantial fines involved if you aren't certified or licensed to handle it or resell it.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

I have a 30 pounder in the garage with some 134a and some 22 as well. There is probably 26 pounds in the jug after 20 years. The other stuff is newer and also hardly used. With the success of the drop-in replacements I know I won't use much of mine and without buying a gauge set, vacuum pump, and adapters the jug you were offered doesn't really have any value. I have had a universal license since 1990. If any of you have a MACS license mine is #2371. That's an old one.

 

Ask your friend if the $7.00 per pound floor tax for stock carry over, due each year in January (business stock requirement, personal is not taxed), is paid up. And if the dues come with it. That will make him stutter.

Bernie

[John_S_in_Penna]

A little research on the internet shows that Mr. Wudsy

is correct:  One needs to be "certified" to buy R12 these days.

(Aren't we grateful that our regulators are saving us!)

Even though I don't have the equipment, a friendly

local certified shop could purchase it for use in my cars.

I don't have the equipment, and would use a

local shop to install it anyway.

 

I remember another thread on this forum a 

couple of years ago, in which someone commented

that he had bought leftover R12 rather inexpensively.

Edited September 22, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

True about the price of R-12 going up and now going down.  Most of the cars with R-12 have aged out to the scrap yard and many of those remaining can be converted to R-134A.  Hence the reduction in price.

[John_S_in_Penna]

How many pounds of R12 are required to

charge a system?  The air conditioning

in my R12 cars hasn't been operational

for many years.

Edited September 22, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

Depending on the car.  I would guess from about 1.5 pounds to maybe 4.0 pounds but usually in the 2.0 pound range.

 

If you look around on the a/c system under the hood, there should be a label that will tell you the amount of refrigerant required for a full charge.

[padgett]

Last I looked the license application was online and not difficult, just have never bothered.

[Guest GT52]

This is a "sold" listing from Ebay for a full tank:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/R12-REFRIGERANT-30-lb-canister-National-new-old-stock-factory-sealed-in-box-/182273268187?hash=item2a705559db:g:3oAAAOSwIgNXm49J&vxp=mtr

 

There is an exception to the licensing requirement where you can buy R12 with a statement that you are buying it with the intent to have a licensed installer install it...so you could buy it and have your licensed shop install it.  You can also take a pretty simple online test to become "licensed" yourself.  The smaller cans bring a much higher price per pound, for obvious reasons.  $250 is a good price.  If your installer still does R12 work, and a lot don't, he may trade you your work for what's left of the R12 after filling your car(s).  Systems that have been non-op for years will likely require a lot more work than just filling with refrigerant though...

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, GT52 said:

There is an exception to the licensing requirement where you can buy R12 with a statement that you are buying it with the intent to have a licensed installer install it...so you could buy it and have your licensed shop install it.  

 

Thanks, GT.  That gives me encouragement.

It's great to have so many knowledgeable friends on the forum.

[Bill Stoneberg]

I bought 30 lbs for $ 400 recently (I am licensed and have everything I need to fill and recharge systems) as my cars like lots of it. The 1960 Buick takes 5 lbs to fill it but once it is full it keeps you cold.

If you do decide to get yours going again, make sure to run the compressor for a little while when you drive the car.  It helps keep the front seal from leaking and losing ll that expensive gas.

[Fr. Buick]

I have been collecting r-12 at swap meets and Craigslist for a few years now, to use on my '54 Buick with factory AC.  

 

As for price, 10 to 15 per pound is a very good deal, and I still grab a can or two if I see that price.  Retail is about 60 a pound, and my system with a huge compressor and a trunk-mounted evaporator, takes 6.5.

 

With Mexico close by, the stuff is easier to get in SoCal.  Even still, demand and price seem to be falling, as there are fewer who own the old systems, and fewer techs to work on them.  Buy your own recovery tank, so that when your system is evacuated, you know what is going back in again.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Fr. Buick (see edit history)

[GARY F]

I would jump on that . 25lbs. for $250. I paid twice that for a bunch of 1lb. cans. i have three cars that use it. I do have the license and the equipment to keep them going.

[JKL]

Hell I have a bunch of cans I’m trying to get rid of tired of warehousing them.  

[Dave Henderson]

Here's a buyer who advertises repeatedly in the "Wanted" column of the Washington Post;  www.refrigerantfinders.com   Phone  312 291 9169

[mcdarrunt]

I'm in my 80's and the only one left in the shop licensed for R-12 About the only use anymore is for street rods that only have room for a small condenser. If room for a large enough condenser everything is 134A. One thing about the 12 is you only need a vacuum pump and a sight glass in the high pressure line although a manifold gauge was handy for leak down check. When the bubbles disappeared in the sight glass you were at max cool. I have two R12 recovery machines, one with tank, that need a new home (cheap) but don't expect a mob at the door when I list them. Anyone remember the propane torch with a "sniffer" hose for leak checking?

[Frank DuVal]

I still have a Snap-On machine for R-12, and yes, a propane sniffer also. Phosgene gas maker.... I now use the electronic one, though. Corvairs like R-12, 5 pounds of it!

[JKL]

That’s my problem I have the 12 but no other equipment.  It was bought in my teens right before they outlawed it ( persay). And been keeping it around  for the corvette and camaro.  But I don’t think I need so many any more.  Plus no equipment = sell.  

[JKL]

2 hours ago, mcdarrunt said:

l. I have two R12 recovery machines, one with tank, that need a new home (cheap) but don't expect a mob...

I’m listening

[60FlatTop]

Here are a couple of old time certifications.

 

MACS is the mobile systems one. The Ferris one is universal. I was doing 2,000 pound charges with R11 on that one. May 1991.

Things were stricter when the cert's first came out, depends on your location and the vendor. Lots of regulations with little or no enforcement.

I am still an instructor and proctor for Ferris. I should be traveling the warm states giving exams when the snow hits. Maybe the Cayman Islands.

Bernie

[PONTIAC1953]

On 9/21/2016 at 8:04 PM, John_S_in_Penna said:

How many pounds of R12 are required to

charge a system?  The air conditioning

in my R12 cars hasn't been operational

for many years.

most likely somewhere around 5 to 6 lbs would be required.

[rocketraider]

I bought 20 cans of it from private seller last month, $10/12oz can. He no longer owned anything that used it and I thought $10 was a very fair price. JKL, what money are you thinking, keeping it mind it would have to be shipped and probably discreetly?

 

I got my certs way back in 90s when the doom and gloom prophets were saying R12 was going to kill the planet. I still think that ozone hole was a bunch of baloney, and that DuPont had a hand in outlawing 12. Hey, they'd developed 134a which was proven to be less efficient, and couldn't get a market for it because 12 worked so well- its pressure/temperature linearity made it the perfect refrigerant. Add in patents e.g. ROYALTIES were expiring, and we see why they wanted to force 134a on us. 

 

And now the doom and gloom crowd has had to find other things to make us feel guilty for being successful as a species. It is positively shameful the way humans drive themselves mad with self-imposed and self-imagined guilt. The medieval flagellates had nothing on modern man.

[60FlatTop]

41 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

I still think that ozone hole was a bunch of baloney,

It was a coverup for 50 years of incinerating the atmosphere with nuclear test detonations. Information on the global effect of my Silverado is published, but you still can't find out how many cubic yards of ozone is destroyed from a 1 MEG detonation. And the first ones were measured in kiloton, not MEG.

 

"Oops! We burned up the sky. Who can we blame it on?"

[Greg Canniff]

On 9/14/2018 at 1:03 AM, JKL said:

That’s my problem I have the 12 but no other equipment.  It was bought in my teens right before they outlawed it ( persay). And been keeping it around  for the corvette and camaro.  But I don’t think I need so many any more.  Plus no equipment = sell.  

I buy R 12. 800 642 9777.  Fl

[Lotus BIll]

Looking for R 12 A/C recharge in the Indiana, Illinois, Michigan or Ohio area.  Please contact me at bill@lotusbill.com  

Thank you,
Bill

[Marty Roth]

Before becoming un-retailable to the consumer, I bought a substantial quantity, as well as a pair of 30 lb containers, now empty by helping friends over many years. 

A Chicago outfit had been phoning, offering $10/16 oz for a while, but finallly came around with $25/12 oz can.

Figured I could use the extra bucks, and had no personal need for the Freon, so now they have 17-1/2 cases, and I have more garage space - a win-win.

[Lotus BIll]

Was that this place:  https://refrigerantfinders.com/

I left a voicemail for them asking them for any information.

[DAVES89]

E bay has it. 

[Lotus BIll]

I don't have the equipment to evac/charge my own A/C.  I need someone with a dedicated R12 evac system (don't want to contaminate my system with any other stuff) to do the work.  I was hoping the refrig buyers know of someone in my general area to do the work.

[padgett]

BTW think GM stopped having a sight glass around 1973.

[John348]

3 hours ago, padgett said:

BTW think GM stopped having a sight glass around 1973.

  /\   ? ?  /\

Did someone delete a post?  I am just confused where this applies, that's all.

 

Getting back on track here, I don't know if I would  chase after the R12, The few vintage cars that I do or did own with A/C I had switched over to R134, and just unscrewed the adapter valves. Castrol makes a compressor oil called "retro AC" that is compatible with both 12 and 134, and that was a major problem. The only noticeable difference is that the discharge is higher at the vents with the 134

There was a lot of discussion about having a license, I don't think it is an issue when servicing ones own car. You only need a liquor license if you are reselling it for commercial gain 

Edited June 25, 2019 by John348 (see edit history)

[Lotus BIll]

I apologize if I'm posting on an incorrect thread or off topic, BUT...

 

I'm speaking on behalf of cars that require R12 since R134 cannot do the job.  It would cost over 10k to "properly" convert my car since the entire A/C system would need to be gutted-everything would need to be new.   So if anyone knows someone in my area (Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio)  that can do an A/C R12 recharge,  I would appreciate any information this forum could offer.

[Ronnie]

45 minutes ago, Lotus BIll said:

I apologize if I'm posting on an incorrect thread or off topic, BUT...

 

I'm speaking on behalf of cars that require R12 since R134 cannot do the job.  It would cost over 10k to "properly" convert my car since the entire A/C system would need to be gutted-everything would need to be new.   So if anyone knows someone in my area (Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio)  that can do an A/C R12 recharge,  I would appreciate any information this forum could offer.

 

Why can't your car be converted to R134?  If you have to stick with R12 all you need is an inexpensive hose to connect to the low side of the system and a can of R12 to recharge it.  Both are still available although the R12 is more expensive than 134.

[DAVES89]

I went on e bay and bought the refill hose that has the correct couplers. Bought a gauge kit, and r12 freon. No need to have an evac kit as you are just adding. Your system is just low correct?

[Lotus BIll]

Yes, system is low.  I may have to buy it myself.  My normal mechanic is too busy at the moment on race team- he has all the stuff.

[Marty Roth]

13 hours ago, Lotus BIll said:

Was that this place:  https://refrigerantfinders.com/

I left a voicemail for them asking them for any information.

 

Lotus Bill,

I sent you a PM

[Lotus BIll]

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

 

Why can't your car be converted to R134?  If you have to stick with R12 all you need is an inexpensive hose to connect to the low side of the system and a can of R12 to recharge it.  Both are still available although the R12 is more expensive than 134.

Because my car is a Lotus Esprit Turbo SE.  It's an easier said than done thing when it comes to an Esprit.  I'd be looking at thousands in parts, plus around 15 to 25 hours of labor to properly convert R-134 as ALL (and I literally mean all of it) of the A/C system needs to be pulled out and replaced.  Just easier to go with R12 and get the proper cooling I desire.  

[John348]

23 minutes ago, Lotus BIll said:

Because my car is a Lotus Esprit Turbo SE.  It's an easier said than done thing when it comes to an Esprit.  I'd be looking at thousands in parts, plus around 15 to 25 hours of labor to properly convert R-134 as ALL (and I literally mean all of it) of the A/C system needs to be pulled out and replaced.  Just easier to go with R12 and get the proper cooling I desire.  

 

Bill,

I don't understand why you have to replace all of the parts to use 134,  I was under under the assumption  that once they made the oil compatible the need to remove everything was eliminated

Edited June 25, 2019 by John348 (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

A/c systems do not use up their refrigerant so if your system is low you have a leak somewhere. Tiny maybe but a leak never the less. Cadillacs from the 1950's require R12 to cool properly.

 

[John348]

24 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

A/c systems do not use up their refrigerant so if your system is low you have a leak somewhere. Tiny maybe but a leak never the less. Cadillacs from the 1950's require R12 to cool properly.

 

 

I agree 100%, but we need to keep in mind that the 50's Cadillac units are pretty primitive as far as A/C goes, The problem I had found with older designed units is that the duct work is large, and allows the 134 (which has a lower discharge temp then 12 to begin with) arriving at the point of exit about 10 to 15 degrees warmer, plus the cubic footage and amount of glass in those bodies style  the A/C needs all the help it can get. I have a Chevrolet Cool Pack unit in my 62 Biscayne and I am running 134, at night it maintains very well, in the sun not so much. the only tinted glass on the car is the windshield.

 

 I also did a conversion two years ago to a 1985 Caprice Wagon I had owned, and it worked fine, so well that I did not even notice the change, and this was in Florida.  I have most of the tools the recovery system that I only use for a vacuum, limited knowledge so I did the Caprice myself. They sell a flush for the system, that goes in right in on the low pressure side, removed the filter going into the evaporator, that had a lot of crap in it! 

The glass was tinted better all around,  I think the radial compressors work much more efficient. There was a huge cubic foot area in the cabin on that vehicle. The Lotus from what I recall has a small cabin, and a lot less glass in comparison, but I am sure some heat is coming up through the floor

 

As you pointed out the refrigerant just dose not evaporate, there is a problem and that repair might require major labor hours to rectify. If it a a slow leak I myself would get that R12 out and retrofit the oil and run R134, it is a lot cheaper to top off the system. But that is me, On my Biscayne I seldom drive it let alone use the A/C

 

Who's system does Lotus use for A/C?