Sad ending for Hispano-Suiza J12

[Anton van Luijk]

Devastating news for the owner of this 1934 Hispano-Suiza J12 Vanvooren cabriolet, as it caught fire yesterday during transport in California.

Shown at Pebble Beach a couple of weeks ago and second in class winner as well as receiving a special award, this wonderful car will be difficult to bring back to its original condition.

[DFeeney]

How Sad, A loss to the entire Hobby.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Spectacularly beautiful styling!

[edinmass]

What a shame.......one of my favorite cars on display this year. Such a rare piece of history. It can be fixed.......figure well over 2 million dollars and several years. And after all of that, the fire will kill its value by 50 percent. 

[Tph479]

Here is a picture of a J12 Vanvooren cabriolet interior that may help in bringing the car back to its former glory.

 

It’s a shame what happened to the car, but as my buddy proclaims that if it was made by hand once, it can be made by hand again.

 

This Hisso J12 was one of my favorite cars at Pebble. Fantastic lines and design. It was a work of art.

 

 

[Dandy Dave]

Ouch. 😕

[kar3516]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

What a shame.......one of my favorite cars on display this year. Such a rare piece of history. It can be fixed.......figure well over 2 million dollars and several years. And after all of that, the fire will kill its value by 50 percent. 

Isn’t disconnecting the battery a normal step for enclosed transportation?  Doesn’t this reduce the chance of a fire by 99%?  This is a tragedy for such a beautiful car; I just wonder if the fire was easily avoidable.

Kent

[Anton van Luijk]

53 minutes ago, Tph479 said:

Here is a picture of a J12 Vanvooren cabriolet interior that may help in bringing the car back to its former glory.

 

It’s a shame what happened to the car, but as my buddy proclaims that if it was made by hand once, it can be made by hand again.

 

This Hisso J12 was one of my favorite cars at Pebble. Fantastic lines and design. It was a work of art.

 

 

Could you perhaps tell me what is written on the picture?

[Tom C]

That’s just awful. What a beautiful machine.

[zepher]

That is two Pebble cars that have met untimely deaths this year.

Both while in enclosed trailers.

 

I wonder if we will ever hear the cause of each one?

[JACK M]

1 hour ago, zepher said:

That is two Pebble cars that have met untimely deaths this year.

Both while in enclosed trailers.

 

I wonder if we will ever hear the cause of each one?

First thing I thought.

Doesn't bad stuff always come in threes?

Stay tuned I guess.

[John Kelso]

Jack I wish you hadn't said that, I'm having a 1929 car transported from California now.

[JACK M]

10 minutes ago, John Kelso said:

Jack I wish you hadn't said that, I'm having a 1929 car transported from California now.

I would not wish bad luck on you.

Hope you have it insured though.

[human-potato_hybrid]

😭

[rocketraider]

2 hours ago, zepher said:

That is two Pebble cars that have met untimely deaths this year.

Both while in enclosed trailers.

 

I wonder if we will ever hear the cause of each one?

One would hope it's only coincidence and not something more nefarious.

[Tph479]

7 hours ago, Anton van Luijk said:

Could you perhaps tell me what is written on the picture?

The writing on the photo says “When are you coming over to upholster my bed room” signed Babs

[Tph479]

Another picture to help with the restoration of the car. 

[wayne sheldon]

I know, "Grand Scheme of things - - -" yadda yadda yadda. It is "just a car", "one of hundreds of millions" and all that.

But this kind of thing makes me really sad. I know it is part of life. There is a risk in no matter what one does. However, ALL cars regardless of stature, especially the high end customs of any era, were touched by the hearts and hands of so many people that designed them, built them, owned them, admired them, and every stage of that car's existence. Especially the high end customs of any era, and especially the great Classic era, that represent the hopes and dreams of millions of people!

I have always had an admiration and fondness for the great European Classics of the prewar Classic era. Hispano-Suiza as much as any epitomizes those really special cars of that difficult era.

This H-S was shown at Pebble Beach to great acclaim. Which means it has been thoroughly restored inside and out. Which in turn means that most of what we see is no longer original. Still, it then also represented a tremendous effort to bring the car back from whatever the condition of abuse and neglect it had suffered over ninety years.

The photos do not tell much, but it appears to not have been too severe of a fire (but almost!). I have restored numerous parts of cars from after serious fires. And I have seen or heard of a few very valuable cars restored after devastating fires (including a Stutz that the aluminum crankcase and transmission case wound up a molten puddle on the floor!). It can be restored again.

6 hours ago, zepher said:

That is two Pebble cars that have met untimely deaths this year.

Both while in enclosed trailers.

 

I wonder if we will ever hear the cause of each one?

 

4 hours ago, rocketraider said:

One would hope it's only coincidence and not something more nefarious.

 

I would not expect anything nefarious. However, my varied backgrounds always make me want to know "what caused this?" I fully and loudly admit it, and proclaim that I am a "rubber necker" at accident sites. I want to see what happened. I want to understand who did what to bring this tragedy out. "Understanding can lead to prevention" (you can quote me on that). (Although I would expect someone before me said basically the same thing?)

 

I don't have an enclosed trailer. I don't always disconnect batteries when trailering a car. Although I do often disconnect batteries on cars when untended for very long. 

 

I do hope in a very few years to read of this car's return to the show circuit.

 

[edinmass]

And people wonder why trucking companies ask for less than five gallons of gas in the tank when shipping an antique car.

[kar3516]

12 minutes ago, edinmass said:

And people wonder why trucking companies ask for less than five gallons of gas in the tank when shipping an antique car.

Agreed.  Takes spark and fuel.  If the car battery is charged I always disconnect it before going down the road with my enclosed trailer.  But a couple of non-running cars I’ve bought had minor leaks resulting in significant gas fumes and aroma once sealed in the trailer.  And we have a winch and lights in the trailer using a 12 volt battery.  Any arc will do; it would be interesting to see stats on enclosed car trailer fires while hauling.

[31Buick96S]

Wow, what a shame! Hopefully, someone will undertake the arduous process of bringing this beautiful automobile back to its former glory.

[1935Packard]

What a shame.  It was one of my favorites, too.   Here are some of the photos I took of it, first on the field and then up on the stage.

 

 

 

[wayne sheldon]

Such a wonderfully beautiful automobile. Truly sad.

[8E45E]

16 hours ago, JACK M said:

First thing I thought.

Doesn't bad stuff always come in threes?

Stay tuned I guess.

Unfortunately this one IS the third one!

 

The first happened in 2020:                               

 

[edinmass]

Problem with the burned car is its value after it being restored again is probably half of its pre fire estimate. I did a quick value check………as I don’t follow V-12 HS cars and it’s lower than I expected. It’s quite possible this car will never be rebuilt. Another masterpiece lost to history.

[TAKerry]

12 hours ago, Tph479 said:

The writing on the photo says “When are you coming over to upholster my bed room” signed Babs

 I am sure he was going to do some upholstery work!!

[TAKerry]

I had a car that was lost in a barn fire. The car itself was not on fire just the building around it. The car did catch and it wasnt extremely flammable as it was pretty much a rolling shell. No int., no motor, etc. I would say 80% of the sheet metal was affected by the heat, and it warped and twisted. This was limited to the top 2/3 of the car. The tires were still intact and did not burn. Along with the heat and then the corrosive fire fighting fluid that immediately ate through the otherwise rust free metal. I honestly do not see how a car burnt to this extreme can be restored. I can see it being re-manufactured but not restored. To me that would have about a 90% impact on the value. 

 

On a side note, I saw an el camino at a show a few years ago that looked liked someone took a torch and burnt all of the paint off, took the glass out and was trying to pull off that it had gone through a devastating fire. Not a single panel of metal had a twist to it. I called bs (I suppose I was the know it all that day) but everyone at the show thought how cool it was that this car was still running.

[Hemi Joel]

I did a little bit of research online about enclosed trailer fires, it seems there has been quite a few of them lately. Lithium-Ion batteries in cordless tools, race cars, and scooters seem to be a common thread.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

3 hours ago, TAKerry said:

I had a car that was lost in a barn fire. The car itself was not on fire just the building around it. The car did catch and it wasnt extremely flammable as it was pretty much a rolling shell. No int., no motor, etc. I would say 80% of the sheet metal was affected by the heat, and it warped and twisted. This was limited to the top 2/3 of the car. The tires were still intact and did not burn. Along with the heat and then the corrosive fire fighting fluid that immediately ate through the otherwise rust free metal. I honestly do not see how a car burnt to this extreme can be restored. I can see it being re-manufactured but not restored. To me that would have about a 90% impact on the value. 

 

On a side note, I saw an el camino at a show a few years ago that looked liked someone took a torch and burnt all of the paint off, took the glass out and was trying to pull off that it had gone through a devastating fire. Not a single panel of metal had a twist to it. I called bs (I suppose I was the know it all that day) but everyone at the show thought how cool it was that this car was still running.

Sorry to hear this, Kerry.  Surprised that you never mentioned it.  What kind of car was it?

[TAKerry]

1979 Trans Am, Tenth Anniv. car. I was doing some restoration work and an angle grinder spark started the fire. Lesson learned. 

[58L-Y8]

Tragic loss of automotive history. Attrition never stops or makes any distinction between a masterpiece or a Yugo...

[alsancle]

8 hours ago, edinmass said:

Problem with the burned car is its value after it being restored again is probably half of its pre fire estimate. I did a quick value check………as I don’t follow V-12 HS cars and it’s lower than I expected. It’s quite possible this car will never be rebuilt. Another masterpiece lost to history.

That was one of the best looking J-12 cars and I would guess worth around 2,000,000 plus prior to the fire.

[zepher]

It is not the liquid form of gasoline that burns, it is the vapor.

So I am puzzled as to why a transporter would want a tiny amount of fuel in the tank and leave all that space for more combustible vapor.

I know with more fuel in the tank there is more fuel for a fire should the tank rupture or leak, but if the tank is sound, there is less chance of fire with a full tank than an almost empty one.

Spilled gasoline ignites because the gasoline immediately starts to evaporate, albeit must slower with modern fuels, and the vapor is what catches fire.

Enclosed trailers should have some sort of passive ventilation system to help prevent the buildup of gasoline vapor inside the trailer while under way, but I know almost none do.

 

HazMat training teaches this, many years ago I went through 80 hours of HazMat training and this type of thing was discussed at length.

 

I know, I know, a can of worms just got opened and tossed into the discussion.

[Reicholzheimer]

I would like to know who pays the insurance.  The transporter or the insurance company. I bought 3 cars over the last 7 years, 2 from the West Coast and 1 from Northeast. Had them transported without insurance. Transporter claimed insurance but only one took credit card with a contract???

Edited September 7 by Reicholzheimer (see edit history)

[DrData]

The transport carrier SHOULD have liability insurance for vehicles in their care, custody or control. If that insurer either drags their feet or has a low dollar limit, the owner may elect to file and to collect from her/his carrier. That carrier would then subrogate and go back against the transporter (or their insurer) to recover the amount paid the owner plus any deductible. In any event the whole mess will likely end up in court.

[prewarnut]

Some misconceptions I think...whether there are 5 gallons or 15 gallons in the tank doesn't change the starting point (only the ending point). The issue is that vaporization of any volatile substance comes from the exposed surface area and atmospheric interface. That square area of the surface of the liquid is not too likely to be different at different fuel tank levels. The issue here is that vapors were allowed to exit the tank and fuel delivery system into the surrounding atmosphere to then later be ignited somehow. The process of vaporization can vary amidst a number of factors (ambient temp, pressure, also with respect to gasoline the fact that it is a mixed hydrocarbon chemical and thus there are inherent differing rates of vaporization, etc....see also: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.firesaf.2009.03.004). There is not a substantial "back-pressure" of gas vapors in the tank preventing further vaporization to occur and surely if there were a pressure release system would be needed to prevent tank explosion/deformation from a mechanical (non-combustible) process. The only reasons to keep a small amount of gas in the tank is a) reduce weight (nominal when hauling a 6000 lb car), and b) should combustion occur, less fuel to the fire so to speak - hence perhaps controlling the end point of such an accident. N.B. I'm two-in on Angel's Envy green label and happy to be wrong. Sorry Ed no Crown Royal in the house at present.

Edited September 6 by prewarnut (see edit history)

[edinmass]

On 9/5/2024 at 2:59 PM, JACK M said:

First thing I thought.

Doesn't bad stuff always come in threes?

Stay tuned I guess.

Who says the wedge car burning is a bad thing? I know, it’s terrible to say it….but I was thinking out loud.

 

The HSV-12 is truly a tragedy.

 

 

[Tph479]

Here are 2 more pictures of the J12 that burned.  My late friend owned the car back in day. He would tell me some fantastic stories of this car and talk about how powerful and impressive it was. I was both surprised and happy to see it a few weeks ago at Pebble. It’s one thing to see a car in old picture's and hear about it, but it’s another thing to see it in person - especially when you are not expecting to see it.
 

If you are unfamiliar with the J12 you should entertain yourself and read up on them. They are impressive cars have massive engines and are built to a very high standard. This car has excellent lines and proportions and you could tell it was a very expensive and quality car when it was new. When I seen the picture that started this thread a few days ago I was bummed.

 

It’s unfortunate that 2 cars caught fire after the show. Hopefully a lot of craftsman will bring this car back to its formal glory and add a few chapters to this cars book.

 

 

[3macboys]

Very sad ending - hopefully, at some point someone will be able to provide the full story as to what was the cause.  I suspect a minor fuel leak onto a hot surface after the car was loaded.  Had it been a spark igniting vapors it would more than likely have been an explosion and the picture would have been entirely different with no framing left from the trailer.  Who knows, it could have been something external to the car all together, maybe the trailer was the initial source and the car simply the unfortunate victim.  At this point anything is really just speculation.   Once we have the full story I'm sure there are lessons to be learned for all of us.

[wayne sheldon]

9 hours ago, zepher said:

It is not the liquid form of gasoline that burns, it is the vapor.

 

 

Been down that road a long time ago myself. Even before learning about it through work and safety trainings. I was still in high school, and working part time in my dad's contracting and communications systems business. He had hired a young man, just out of his military service and a year or more in Vietnam. He was a good young man, trying to adjust to civilian life again, and suffering from his experiences overseas. He needed adrenaline rushes occasionally, and to that end would play with fire. To his credit, he would contain his outbursts to controlled conditions and limited risks. Numerous times, he would pour a small amount of gasoline (quarter cup or less?) onto the ground or asphalt and try to ignite it. Many times he would pour the gasoline onto asphalt and then run then stop running to skid his steel spiked climbing boots (he sometimes wore) on the asphalt. The steel spikes would shed sparks as he skidded into the gasoline slick. I saw him do that so many times, fifty, a hundred, maybe more times he tried. He could shower sparks on dry pavement, but as soon as he hit the gasoline, no more sparks. Never once that I saw, did one of his sparks ignite the gasoline. After a dozen or twenty tries, he would throw matches into the gasoline slick. Usually the first few would fail to light the gasoline, either blowing out before landing, or sometimes being put out by the liquid fuel before igniting the vapors being blown in the wind. After a minute or a few, he would simply light the gasoline with a match, and dance in the flames until they burned out.

 

Liquid gasoline is not as easy to ignite as most people think it is. 

However, many circumstances apply. Temperatures, surrounding flammables, winds, surface area versus fluid quantity, and a hundred other unknowns can make the difference between a "quiet poof" and a major disaster. Fire should not be played with carelessly! He needed understanding, and even as a kid, I understood that.

 

In later years, I got actual instruction about some of all this. Our work often had us dealing with the aftermath of major building fires. We worked with fire marshals and investigators occasionally. Among our electrical and electronic specialties was what does and what likely will not cause a fire. I could tell dozens of stories (including one where one of the largest safety labs in the country missed one!)

 

More to the point at hand, I have had more than a few incidents where I happened to be there when something failed and showered gasoline all over a hot running engine. Only one resulted in a fire, destroying a neighbor's car. When a fire extinguisher failed (design flaws seem to haunt me?), I put the fire out with a sopping wet bath towel. It was the extra minute it took to go get the wet towel that destroyed the car.

 

On a couple occasions, industrial equipment running in the hot sun broke fuel lines and showered the hot engines and exhaust manifolds in wet gasoline, creating lots of hot vapor. In both times I ran over and shut the engine down immediately. I knew from previous experiences that the explosive potential was limited due to quantity and other circumstances, so did not fear going closer. Neither ignited, and wet gasoline was quickly vaporized in the heat and blown away in the wind.

 

Again (I said this yesterday), "Understanding can lead to prevention!" My whole life I have tried to learn and understand as many things as I can. And quite frankly, it has "saved my bacon" more times than I care to count.

 

 

Edited September 7 by wayne sheldon
I hate leaving typos! (see edit history)