Another auction. And another, and another......

[Terry Bond]

Amazing how there seems to be an auction every weekend!  No, three or four of them every weekend!

We're bombarded with multiple auctions on multiple bidding platforms so frequently it's a wonder we don't bid against ourselves sometimes.  

 

Gas pumps, signs galore, oil cans, memorabilia, automobilia, vintage (whatever that means), museums, collections, estates, ad nauseam.

 

Perhaps it deserves its own separate thread but I was looking at some of the items in the Bonhams "Two Gentleman's collection" sale upcoming on April 29th.  Odd how there is no mention anywhere this is the Singe collection (or a least a small part of it.)  The cars of course are the stars. Some fabulous items that should do well knowing their provenance.  Others are nice but probably will bring average prices considering some have been driven hard and put away wet.  Still, the automobilia is of course my main area of interest and there is some great stuff being sold.  I'm wondering though - it's quite obvious the automobilia has been selected as "fluff" for this sale.   Many good items are lumped into groups of three or four when they should be sold individually.  Thought Bonhams would have done a better job sorting that stuff out.  Of course the Singe automobila collection on its own could easily be stretched out for a year or more in individual sales.  Brass alone would take several sales I'm sure.  I note also a "Buyers Premium" of over 27%!!!  I'm sure they can find a way to justify that, but from this end, it's hard to justify spending that much in addition to the bids I had in mind.  I may watch this one go by and start collecting auction catalogs.  

Terry

Edited April 9, 2023 by Terry Bond (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

Auction catalog collecting, I can relate to that I had about two feel of shelf space filled with catalogs a friend had collected. Great photos and known history on the cars, they don't sell for much on the internet I found out. I'll get a Singe catalog just to have a record of the stiff they collected, but I know I won't be a successful bidder on anything. 

 

Bob

[Twisted Shifter]

Well...in my opinion, the smart money is selling. What does that tell you about he rest of us?

 

 

[edinmass]

4 hours ago, Twisted Shifter said:

Well...in my opinion, the smart money is selling. What does that tell you about he rest of us?

 

 

 

The Duesenberg guys aren’t selling…..and if you know a dozen collectors who have one and want to sell them, have all of them call me. We can place all twelve in less than a week……..easily. Try and buy a GOOD car………read that as “world class”……….there aren’t any for sale.

Edited April 9, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[playswithbrass]

I think cars are 12% and automobilia is 27.5% ?

[RansomEli]

Just a slight correction.  It's the Bohams Two Generations Collection.

 

Looks like some really nice stuff. I see some items I would gladly pay 2X the maximum estimate.

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by RansomEli (see edit history)

[Walt G]

3 hours ago, Terry Bond said:

I note also a "Buyers Premium" of over 27%!!!  I'm sure they can find a way to justify that, but from this end, it's hard to justify spending that much in addition to the bids I had in mind.

Terry I am in complete agreement with you.

[gossp]

9 minutes ago, RansomEli said:

Just a slight correction.  It's the Bohams Two Generations Collection.

 

Looks like some really nice stuff. I see some items I would gladly pay 2X the maximum estimate.

 

There are some cars there that if I thought the high estimate would actually buy…. I would be having a fire sale to free up the money. 
 

2x the high estimate on some of the brass lights right now. Gladly. 

[TAKerry]

Terry, for a automobilia collector such as yourself, it may be an advantage to have things lumped together and inconspicuous. I would think on the outside that it may keep prices down. But 27% is ridiculous. One would have to really love something for that kind of entry fee.  Then again if the sales are light that may be why such a high fee. 

[Twisted Shifter]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

 

The Duesenberg guys aren’t selling…..and if you know a dozen collectors who have won and want to sell them, have all of them call me. We can place all twelve in less than a week……..easily. Try and buy a GOOD car………read that as “world class”……….there aren’t any for sale.

 

In my book, there's a difference between smart money and BIG money.

[John_S_in_Penna]

6 hours ago, Terry Bond said:

I note also a "Buyers Premium" of over 27%!!!  I'm sure they can find a way to justify that, but from this end, it's hard to justify spending that much in addition to the bids I had in mind. 

59 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

...But 27% is ridiculous. 

I agree!

Don't fall for their ploy.  You won't pay an EXTRA 27%

in reality, if you bid less.  For example, if you think an

item is really worth $1000, bid only up to $750 or so.

 

Auction companies, over the years, have increased their

buyers' premiums;  but they could be an absurd 50%,

and then the smart buyer would defeat the tactic by

bidding only $650 for that item worth $1000.

[edinmass]

4 hours ago, playswithbrass said:

I think cars are 12% and automobilia is 27.5% ?

Simple reason for those numbers……….do you know why?

[wayne sheldon]

The problem is that way too many people aren't smart enough to factor in the overcharges when they plan (or do NOT plan?) their bidding. And the auction companies KNOW that!

 

Personally, I despise the practice myself. However, since I almost never attend auctions, and very rarely can afford to be a bidder? It doesn't directly affect me much.

 

I just do not like dishonest business practices. And even though the auction companies DO tell bidders up front and in plain English that there IS a "buyer's premium" over and above the bid price, does not make it entirely honest. They KNOW most people are incapable of thinking that way "on the fly", and will bid higher without realizing it until too late. They also learned the hard way that sellers did not like covering all the costs involved in an auction, regardless of the size of the auction or the merchandise. A little "slight of hand" hitting the buyers with the costs did in fact solve a lot of their problems that should have been otherwise covered by the sellers.

So there are in fact two sides to this issue. The auction companies do have the right and a real NEED to make a profit on their work, time, and expenses. I just wish there was a fair and more honest way to do so.

[wayne sheldon]

2 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Simple reason for those numbers……….do you know why?

It takes almost as much time and effort for the cataloging and handling for the low dollars stuff as it does the cars?

[edinmass]

 

Nope……the estate is getting the auction service for free…….no sellers fees……..only buyers fees. Typical of special auctions, and everyone in the auction business will deny it ten thousand times. It’s more interesting to predict the results……..overall, and on any particular car. This will be an interesting event. It will not be anything like the sale Friday. 

[wayne sheldon]

Interesting. 

[alsancle]

59 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said:

The problem is that way too many people aren't smart enough to factor in the overcharges when they plan (or do NOT plan?) their bidding. And the auction companies KNOW that!

 

Personally, I despise the practice myself. However, since I almost never attend auctions, and very rarely can afford to be a bidder? It doesn't directly affect me much.

 

I just do not like dishonest business practices. And even though the auction companies DO tell bidders up front and in plain English that there IS a "buyer's premium" over and above the bid price, does not make it entirely honest. They KNOW most people are incapable of thinking that way "on the fly", and will bid higher without realizing it until too late. They also learned the hard way that sellers did not like covering all the costs involved in an auction, regardless of the size of the auction or the merchandise. A little "slight of hand" hitting the buyers with the costs did in fact solve a lot of their problems that should have been otherwise covered by the sellers.

So there are in fact two sides to this issue. The auction companies do have the right and a real NEED to make a profit on their work, time, and expenses. I just wish there was a fair and more honest way to do so.

 

Most of the bidders I know are figuring the "all in" price as they go along.  Usually most guys have a set limit in their head which includes the buyers premium, any taxes, transportation, etc.   That doesn't mean you don't get caught up in the moment and overbid sometimes.    However, we focus on the flashy lots which generate interest while many lots languish and either don't sell or are let go much less than what the consignor hoped for.

[wayne sheldon]

50 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Most of the bidders I know are figuring the "all in" price as they go along.  Usually most guys have a set limit in their head which includes the buyers premium, any taxes, transportation, etc.   That doesn't mean you don't get caught up in the moment and overbid sometimes.    However, we focus on the flashy lots which generate interest while many lots languish and either don't sell or are let go much less than what the consignor hoped for.

 

Smart bidders of course do that. A few times I have attended auctions, there were bidders that obviously weren't being that smart. One auction I went to some years back, a good friend was wanting a particular car. Someone else got caught up in the moment and bid the price higher. My friend dropped out commenting about with all the extra premiums it was going too high. A year later the buyer was trying to recover some of his money, and overheard complaining about how the extra premiums had run up his losses.

[John_S_in_Penna]

15 hours ago, edinmass said:

Nope……the estate is getting the auction service for free…….no sellers fees……..only buyers fees. 

Exactly!

I have bid on major items in national auctions

in a different field.  They have 20% buyers' premiums

typically.

 

In those cases, seller's fees are negotiable.  On larger

collections being auctioned, the seller's commissions

can actually be negative--meaning that the seller

receives MORE than the bid price!

 

For example:  Realistic value of a lot is $1000.

Buyer bids $800, and pays $960 total after the 20% premium.

The seller may receive $840, which is 5% OVER the winning bid.

Auction house still makes money.  It's all a silly game of numbers.

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Robert G. Smits]

4 hours ago, Twisted Shifter said:

 

In my book, there's a difference between smart money and BIG money.

Agree totally.  I have a friend who thinks nothing about dropping $100-200K at a single automobilia auction.  Considering the declining value of the dollar I'm not sure he doesn't fit both "Big" and "Smart" money.  My stock portfolio has sure declined over the last two years while a grade 9  double sided 42 inch porcelain  has appreciated 25%.  Just thinking!

[1937hd45]

Not that it matters but once car parts become "Automobilia" have you ever met anyone that bought the parts to place on a restored car or are they shelf display items forever? 

[3macboys]

All this talk about smart money, big money, buyers premiums etc...just don't take your wife!  I came home on Monday with this after my wife elbowed me and I flashed my bidding card to the auctioneer.  

[JFranklin]

A great start on a gothic rabbit hutch!

[Jim Mead]

Ed, in what specific ways do you think the Sr. / Jr. Auction will differ from Mark Smith’s ?  Just curious…….

 

As far as fees go, look out, your Credit Card fee is likely about to be charged to you next time you eat out. Will it catch on ?

 

Jim Mead

Owego, NY

West of Pluto

 

[TAKerry]

8 hours ago, 3macboys said:

All this talk about smart money, big money, buyers premiums etc...just don't take your wife!  I came home on Monday with this after my wife elbowed me and I flashed my bidding card to the auctioneer.  

Thats a great architectural piece. I would save something like that, not sure I would buy one. Sadly I have thrown more of that kind of stuff in dumpsters over the years than I like to admit.

 

My wife is too compulsive for auctions. I cringe when ever she mentions one. She is very passive aggressive. If its ok and she wants it she will cheap out and give up early for fear of over paying. BUT if she WANTS it, she will bid to the moon!

[alsancle]

4 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

Thats a great architectural piece. I would save something like that, not sure I would buy one. Sadly I have thrown more of that kind of stuff in dumpsters over the years than I like to admit.

 

My wife is too compulsive for auctions. I cringe when ever she mentions one. She is very passive aggressive. If its ok and she wants it she will cheap out and give up early for fear of over paying. BUT if she WANTS it, she will bid to the moon!

There are a few heavy hitters at the car auctions where if they want a car they will not stop.  I've often wondered what would happen if two of them wanted the same thing.   Bidding would stop somewhere around 10 million dollars on a 1 million dollar car?

[3macboys]

6 minutes ago, alsancle said:

There are a few heavy hitters at the car auctions where if they want a car they will not stop.  I've often wondered what would happen if two of them wanted the same thing.   Bidding would stop somewhere around 10 million dollars on a 1 million dollar car?

I think that is how we ended up with $1000 oil cans - how rare are they really and does anyone really know how many are still sitting in barns and garages?

[John Bloom]

14 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

The problem is that way too many people aren't smart enough to factor in the overcharges when they plan (or do NOT plan?) their bidding. And the auction companies KNOW that!

 

Personally, I despise the practice myself. However, since I almost never attend auctions, and very rarely can afford to be a bidder? It doesn't directly affect me much.

 

I just do not like dishonest business practices. And even though the auction companies DO tell bidders up front and in plain English that there IS a "buyer's premium" over and above the bid price, does not make it entirely honest. They KNOW most people are incapable of thinking that way "on the fly", and will bid higher without realizing it until too late. They also learned the hard way that sellers did not like covering all the costs involved in an auction, regardless of the size of the auction or the merchandise. A little "slight of hand" hitting the buyers with the costs did in fact solve a lot of their problems that should have been otherwise covered by the sellers.

So there are in fact two sides to this issue. The auction companies do have the right and a real NEED to make a profit on their work, time, and expenses. I just wish there was a fair and more honest way to do so.

"The auction companies do have the right and a real NEED to make a profit on their work, time, and expenses. I just wish there was a fair and more honest way to do so."

 

Wayne, what would you suggest is more fair?  I can't imagine running an auction with marketing, staff salaries, leasing venues, all the up front costs to do an endeavor like these........and the sellers have a reserve where few lots sell.  

 

I feel like all of these auctions are very clear about a buyer premium.  The idea that people are too impulsive or foolish to "count the cost".....the whole cost.... and must be protected from that weakness in humanity.....................doesn't fly with me.  Show up as a responsible person with your money and spend wisely, or don't go (or sit on the sidelines).   If you can't do basic math and add whatever the buyer premium % is to your bid.......you might deserve to be separated from your money.  

 

Sorry to be the killjoy contrarian on here.......

 

John

 

[Jim Mead]

Ouch!  More “honest” ?  Might we say less annoying ?

 

Smacks of a quiet prejudice I felt as a child against my Family’s business. Sort of tempered by the fact that my Dad was also Chief of Police in our Village for 24 years. 
 

Or, for some, I suppose that just added to their notion of his ethics….

 

Which, overall seemed pretty OK to me. Of course, in the Police profession, one often comes up short on empathetic acquaintances.  So maybe his dual careers were more complimentary than I thought……
 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Jim Mead
Sp (see edit history)

[pkhammer]

  If a buyer isn't intelligent enough to realize that he will pay $110 for an item he just bid to $100 at an auction with a 10% buyers premium, that is his problem. I feel like anything over a 10% buyers premium however is excessive and I won't even attend an auction if it's more than 15% nor will I pay a fee for the privilege of simply attending an auction.

  I don't typically even view online auctions except to see how crazy some people can be. There was a local auction last year that had a large collection of gas pumps and signs, most of which sold for 200% of what they were worth, and that was before buyers premium. Some people just go coo-coo at auctions. An example is a hit and miss engine I had for sale. I took it to a couple gas engine shows with a very fair asking price and it got little attention. Finally to get it out of my way I consigned it to a local auction. It sold for nearly double what I had been asking!

[Steve Moskowitz]

23 hours ago, Terry Bond said:

Amazing how there seems to be an auction every weekend!  No, three or four of them every weekend!

We're bombarded with multiple auctions on multiple bidding platforms so frequently it's a wonder we don't bid against ourselves sometimes.  

 

Gas pumps, signs galore, oil cans, memorabilia, automobilia, vintage (whatever that means), museums, collections, estates, ad nauseam.

 

Perhaps it deserves its own separate thread but I was looking at some of the items in the Bonhams "Two Gentleman's collection" sale upcoming on April 29th.  Odd how there is no mention anywhere this is the Singe collection (or a least a small part of it.)  The cars of course are the stars. Some fabulous items that should do well knowing their provenance.  Others are nice but probably will bring average prices considering some have been driven hard and put away wet.  Still, the automobilia is of course my main area of interest and there is some great stuff being sold.  I'm wondering though - it's quite obvious the automobilia has been selected as "fluff" for this sale.   Many good items are lumped into groups of three or four when they should be sold individually.  Thought Bonhams would have done a better job sorting that stuff out.  Of course the Singe automobila collection on its own could easily be stretched out for a year or more in individual sales.  Brass alone would take several sales I'm sure.  I note also a "Buyers Premium" of over 27%!!!  I'm sure they can find a way to justify that, but from this end, it's hard to justify spending that much in addition to the bids I had in mind.  I may watch this one go by and start collecting auction catalogs.  

Terry

Terry, I get it!  I do not like it either.  I also do not like the fact we our now getting charged 26% service charge at hotels in big cities for catering. I also do not like the way prices have risen for all sorts of items in our business life or personal life.  Not smart enough to know what the solutions are but costs to us are going up and up.

 

What we as buyers do not see is the cost of doing business for these auction houses.  I got to see a little close up an auction that stayed in the same buildings the collections were stored in.  It still required a staff of several to spend over a month in the Chicago area, food, travel, rental car and hotel rooms.  They also had to bring in a motorcycle expert to spend the time to get all the cycles running.  Then there is the production of the catalogs, costs of auctioneers, live telecasts, and on and on. I am sure I only have a small fraction of the costs there are to operate a quality auction.  In some cases the materials have to be shipped to a different location which means custom packaging, etc. With transportation costs and all other costs going up I understand the charges but still always feel the pain when I complete a purchase.

 

The terms are always spelled out in multiple ways by the quality auction houses and repeated at the opening of the auction. I have never felt that anyone was being underhanded, just a few times that I was being foolish spending what I did on the items.  However, those items are now mine and I get to enjoy them.  Whether they appreciate or not is not of great concern to me but if I had bought signs to a great extent years ago I would have quite a fortune today as Bob Smits points out.  

 

Like you Terry, I wish the items were packaged differently in this sale.  Having known the father and son, visited to collection more than once, it would have been nice to be able to purchase an item or two.  Like most of the auctions, probably not in the stars for me. It will be another interesting auction that is for sure.  I do have some auction catalogs for sale if you are interested in buying them!   Actually, we are keeping them in our library for future reference.

 

 

 

[edinmass]

 

The price of EVERYTHING today is insane............and it's going to affect many more collectibles than cars...........try shipping a box Fedex or UPS. With cost of living outpacing income the last two and a half years by 10 to 15 percent, the demographics of the hobby will shift even more to household making over 200k a year as a basic new threshold to get in the hobby from square one. 

[60FlatTop]

The car hobby and auctions really blossomed in the early 1970s. Read up on "The Nixon Shock" and compare.

 

Material items will have a greater liquid value when confidence in the economic system is shaken. Opportunities lie in helping those making the transitions, not so much in transitioning.

[wayne sheldon]

8 hours ago, John Bloom said:

Wayne, what would you suggest is more fair?  I can't imagine running an auction with marketing, staff salaries, leasing venues, all the up front costs to do an endeavor like these........and the sellers have a reserve where few lots sell.  

 

John B et al, Hence why I said "I just wish" there was a more fair and honest way---. There really doesn't appear to be one.

I also mentioned that the auction houses had learned the hard way that they couldn't simply hit the sellers for all the costs of putting on a good auction. A good auction is all about promotion, and presentation. All that takes money, a lot of money. The alternative is to quietly hold a local auction for local residents and dealers looking for bargains. A handful of cars or other major items might sell for a decent price? However most of the auction would probably net about one tenth the dollars as a good well presented auction could. That promotion and presentation takes a lot money up front, and someone putting up that upfront money wants and should make his money back! 

The hope and idea of course is that the upfront costs can bring in competing buyers enough to get bidding somewhere near what desirable items might sell for in individual sales at other type venues. Auction prices usually reflect actual collector value for much of what sells at collector auctions.

Hopefully, all the promotion raises the bidding enough to benefit both the sellers and the auction house considerably beyond what it costs to put on the show!

Without the money spent up front for promotion and presentation? Local estate auctions would be just bargain sales for local dealers to profit from.

 

Most of the good auction houses are quite "up-front" about those buyers premiums. The add-ons are however a bit of misdirection. Like any good magic act, we know the magician is misdirecting us to see what he wants us to see. But we love the show!

[John Bloom]

28 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said:

 

John B et al, Hence why I said "I just wish" there was a more fair and honest way---. There really doesn't appear to be one.

I also mentioned that the auction houses had learned the hard way that they couldn't simply hit the sellers for all the costs of putting on a good auction. A good auction is all about promotion, and presentation. All that takes money, a lot of money. The alternative is to quietly hold a local auction for local residents and dealers looking for bargains. A handful of cars or other major items might sell for a decent price? However most of the auction would probably net about one tenth the dollars as a good well presented auction could. That promotion and presentation takes a lot money up front, and someone putting up that upfront money wants and should make his money back! 

The hope and idea of course is that the upfront costs can bring in competing buyers enough to get bidding somewhere near what desirable items might sell for in individual sales at other type venues. Auction prices usually reflect actual collector value for much of what sells at collector auctions.

Hopefully, all the promotion raises the bidding enough to benefit both the sellers and the auction house considerably beyond what it costs to put on the show!

Without the money spent up front for promotion and presentation? Local estate auctions would be just bargain sales for local dealers to profit from.

 

Most of the good auction houses are quite "up-front" about those buyers premiums. The add-ons are however a bit of misdirection. Like any good magic act, we know the magician is misdirecting us to see what he wants us to see. But we love the show!

Wayne, auctions are certainly entertaining and provoke a lot of thought and conversation, and serve a useful purpose in the hobby. But at the end of the day, there’s nothing like a car changing hands amicably between two individual parties that know and trust each other and full disclosure is given and both sides of the deal feel good about it.

 

if you’ve been a part of a few transactions like that in this hobbies, Count your blessings.

[edinmass]

 

A good deal is when the buyer and seller are both happy. 
 

 

[wayne sheldon]

27 minutes ago, John Bloom said:

But at the end of the day, there’s nothing like a car changing hands amicably between two individual parties that know and trust each other and full disclosure is given and both sides of the deal feel good about it.

 

if you’ve been a part of a few transactions like that in this hobbies, Count your blessings.

 

 

12 minutes ago, edinmass said:

A good deal is when the buyer and seller are both happy. 

 

I have had many transactions like that! Mostly when I buy. I know what I want and can afford, and if I can make a deal they are happy with all is great! Selling sometimes doesn't go so well. Most of my friends can afford much better cars than I, so they usually aren't in the market for something I need to sell. I end up advertising, disclosing a dozen minor flaws, then dropping my price another twenty percent or more. Then they complain that the car isn't pristine and show-ready!

 

I think some people try to be unhappy with every deal they make.

[Walt G]

8 hours ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

I understand the charges but still always feel the pain when I complete a purchase.

Steve your words probably reflect what ,many of us feel. I think that the largest percent of us bid or buy items because we ( not in any order) love and appreciate the look- the design - the appearance, love the history connected to it , ask ourselves how did this survive all these decades without being trashed  or destroyed, All of this stuff was created with the intent it would be limited in use and time and then replaced with newer ( and better) things from the same manufacturer. The history of the objects send many of us on a trip to an era before we were born, that our grand and great grandparents were alive to see first person. History captures that, and to be able to call an object that is part of that history our own gives us the "feel good vibes" some of us crave.

There are some who own things for 1) prestige 2) investment value 3) to impress their peers etc. it is the same people who state " I am an aficionado of historic exotic classic automobiles"  rather then just stating "I am an old car guy". the latter is the way I have always described myself.  Auctions provide the gallery that thrives on the things we really like and believe we "need".

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, Walt G said:

...love and appreciate the look- the design - the appearance, love the history connected to it...The history of the objects send many of us on a trip to an era before we were born, that our grand and great grandparents were alive to see first person.

An excellent outlook, and so well stated!

Anyone can see that you answered your calling

to be an automotive writer and historian, Walt.

[Robert G. Smits]

11 hours ago, pkhammer said:

collection of gas pumps and signs, most of which sold for 200% of what they were worth,

My view is that they sold for their true value on the day of the sale  Tomorrow the true value may be up or down, however if you put that same collection in an auction in a couple of years I suspect no one will lose money and probably beat the rate of inflation handily.  As a positive you get to enjoy your purchases until your kids sell.  I never look at my Tesla stocks but I sure enjoy my advertising and lets face it we are not purchasing with funds needed for daily living.  If my advertising goes to zero it will not affect my quality of life.  If it did it would be gone in a minute.