My 65 Riviera - start the fun (pain)

[Brtele]

Last Monday took the plunge on my 1st Buick, a 1965 Riviera.  I don't know the history other than the car hasn't been registered since 1990.  PO stated car has ran around the block once in the past 10-15 years, I'm leaning towards 20.  

It'll start and run ok (slight miss).  Will engage drive/reverse and will brake.  Any gas at all and it dies.  I don't know anything at all about Buicks or Nailheads, so this is going to be fun and somewhat painful.

 

Items completed so far:

- Changed the worst oil I've ever encountered for new Valvoline VR1 10/30 and a Napa Gold filter.  Easiest oil change ever - almost like Buick designed the engine with oil changes in mind - my wife even stated "You're already done? That was a lot quicker than usual" (thanks for the vote of confidence).

- Bled the front brakes with DOT3 easily.  Rear drums will not bleed, even after completely removing the bleeder screws from either rear drum.  When disconnecting the front side of the rear rubber brake line, I can get fluid to flow, but cannot obtain flow after the distribution block.  I can't remove the rubber line from the distribution block yet to determine if it's the rubber or distribution block restriction. 

- Cleaned the exterior and interior with mild soap and it cleaned up pretty good. Got a new car cover on it to keep dust off as long as possible.

 

Items looking me square in the face:

- Carb rebuild.  I ordered a kit from the Carb King, but I'm really afraid I don't have a 7025040/5140 as the carb no longer has the metal ID tag.  I'm going to start taking it apart tonight and compare existing gaskets/accelerator pump to the new.  Fingers crossed.

- Horn not working/relay clicking.  Taking the relay apart to see if the internal wires are keeping the relay from transferring power.  If so, I'll solder a new wire in place.

- Changing plugs out to AC's R45S and watching close to eliminate ping/detonation.

- Changing plug wires to 8m Taylor Spiro-Pro 180 degree on both sides.

- Still trying to figure out if I'm going electronic ignition.  Narrowed down to Pertronix or Breakerless SE.  I'm leaning toward Breakerless.

- Need to install roofline weatherstripping.  I've decided to go with Steele's product, but haven't determined where to purchase from just yet.

 

Anyways, this is where I'm at and love the forum you guys/gals have created.  It's already been a huge help working through the tiny things I'm tackling so far.

 

Thanks, 

Brandon A

Edited December 28, 2021 by Brtele (see edit history)

[msdminc]

Brandon, welcome to the world of Riviera.  The fun has just begun.  Looks like it cleaned up pretty well.  

 

Rock On 

 

gord

[jframe]

Welcome to the forum. Like seeing another '65 with a vinyl top. Not a ton of them out there. Car looks like it's in decent shape for sitting so long.

I'd recommend dumping the Rochester carb for the Carter AFB that also came on these cars. In '65, it was list number 3621s. Just 

a matter of preference really, but I've heard the Rochester is tough to get just right, and parts seem more plentiful for the AFB.

Tom Telesco did an AFB for me last year to replace my 4Jet Rochester, and I've been very pleased with it.

[RivNut]

Check for a 4 digit stamped number close to where the tag should have been. The four digits are the last four of the carburetor number.  If those 4 match the last four in the Carburetorshop website for a 1965 Buick, you’re on the right track.  If you’re not sure, call Jon and he’ll talk you through it. It appears that in 1965 there were two different Rochester carbs for the 401, but luckily they both take the same kit.
 

[RivNut]

Run a hot wire from the positive post on your battery to the terminal on each horn to see if it’s the relay or the horn.😁

[Brtele]

17 minutes ago, RivNut said:

Check for a 4 digit stamped number close to where the tag should have been. The four digits are the last four of the carburetor number.  If those 4 match the last four in the Carburetorshop website for a 1965 Buick, you’re on the right track.  If you’re not sure, call Jon and he’ll talk you through it. It appears that in 1965 there were two different Rochester carbs for the 401, but luckily they both take the same kit.
 

Thanks for the advice Ed.  I spoke for a long time with Jon (awesome guy) and he walked me through some tricks, but said without the stamp, it's a crap shoot.  Also told me to quit calling it gas - it's no longer gas based on what the government has done to it (lol).  I uploaded my carb pics, but don't see the 4-digit stamp anywhere.  I'm going to take the carb off tonight and start working my way through it.

[Brtele]

24 minutes ago, RivNut said:

Run a hot wire from the positive post on your battery to the terminal on each horn to see if it’s the relay or the horn.😁

Good call. They both quit working last Tuesday mid-honk.  I'm leaning towards the relay, but it's definitely worth running a quick jumper over there to test. Thanks,

[telriv]

I can see a number on the L/rear of the carb. on top in two pics. Can't read it. Looks like maybe 1801???

 

Tom T.

[Brtele]

3 minutes ago, telriv said:

I can see a number on the L/rear of the carb. on top in two pics. Can't read it. Looks like maybe 1801???

 

Tom T.

Thanks for looking at it Tom, but I can't find anything other than the "Made in USA", "4-JET" and the "R/P".  There's also a faint "GM" stamped by the throttle linkage.

[1965rivgs]

  Wow...thought I may have previously owned your car as I formerly owned two `65`s that were a carbon copy, colors, trim, vinyl top and the same equipment.... but I dont think so based on the background...

  Your car looks very original and the 4GC carb looks like the `65 version to me. One of the first Rivs I owned over 4 decades ago was a carbon copy and also needed a 4GC rebuild. It was the first 4GC I ever rebuilt (not the first carb I ever rebuilt) and although they can be aggravating for several reasons, it turned out well, great driveability and idle quality. You should be OK....

  Did you check for voltage at the horns? If your relay is clicking, the internal wiring is OK but the contacts which transfer the voltage may not be....assuming the horns themselves check OK.

  Before you invest in any tune up items chasing a miss, do a compression check first to confirm good mechanical condition of the engine.

  Good luck Brandon!

Tom Mooney

[65VerdeGS]

Congratulations Brandon on your new '65 Riviera.  Looks real sharp!

 

The car looks very clean and un-molested - a great base to start from.  

 

Welcome to the forum.  Lots of great advice to be found here.  Use the search function, and of course you can always post your questions.

 

Consider joining the Riviera Owners Association.   This will be another great resource for you.  See here:

 

https://www.rivowners.org/

 

Cheers,

[RIVNIK]

Recently had the same horn problem, unhooked everything, cleaned all points of contact, works like new. Installed Petronix years ago, no problems, no more dickin' around w points. best improvement to this day. Hey,Toms! Why do some '65s have Rochesters & others have Carters? (which is what mine has) 

[jframe]

10 minutes ago, RIVNIK said:

Recently had the same horn problem, unhooked everything, cleaned all points of contact, works like new. Installed Petronix years ago, no problems, no more dickin' around w points. best improvement to this day. Hey,Toms! Why do some '65s have Rochesters & others have Carters? (which is what mine has) 

I figure GM was using up supply on the Rochesters. This carb went away in favor of the Quadrajet in '66. Waste not, want not is the motto of big companies like GM. 

[EmTee]

Nice looking Riviera - I think the top and wheel covers look great with the silver body.  Even the interior looks to be in pretty good shape.  It's good to see another Riviera coming out of hibernation! 

[1965rivgs]

1 hour ago, jframe said:

I figure GM was using up supply on the Rochesters. This carb went away in favor of the Quadrajet in '66. Waste not, want not is the motto of big companies like GM. 

  Buick continued to install the 4GC throughout the `66 model year on the 401

Tom Mooney

[1965rivgs]

1 hour ago, RIVNIK said:

Recently had the same horn problem, unhooked everything, cleaned all points of contact, works like new. Installed Petronix years ago, no problems, no more dickin' around w points. best improvement to this day. Hey,Toms! Why do some '65s have Rochesters & others have Carters? (which is what mine has) 

  Probably a matter of utilizing more than one supplier in case of labor problems, catastrophic occurences like a plant fire, etc...to guarantee supply so as not to interrupt new car production. I have seen a reference to the 4GC as having better driveability and fuel mileage in factory literature.

Tom Mooney

[Brtele]

1 hour ago, RIVNIK said:

Recently had the same horn problem, unhooked everything, cleaned all points of contact, works like new. Installed Petronix years ago, no problems, no more dickin' around w points. best improvement to this day. Hey,Toms! Why do some '65s have Rochesters & others have Carters? (which is what mine has) 

I tried that on Sunday, quick took the connections apart, sanded them clean and sprayed a little DeOxit on them - no dice.  Next step for me is to run a quick jumper to the horn to establish they work.  If they work, I'll Fluke my way back to where the 12V stops getting sent.  Thanks for the suggestion.

[60FlatTop]

One of the best cars you will ever own. And they are keepers. In 1990 I had already owned my '64 for 12 years.

 

Lots of heavy cast iron parts. If those years of idle storage were not in a climate controller room variations of temperature and humidity will have caused condensation on surfaces bot on the inside and outside of the castings. Condensation dripped down the block webbing into the engine oil. It did the same in the transmission and rearend. There is likely to be a cup of water under every fluid reserve on the car. Search it out. One of the most often overlooked points is the rearend lube. It should be drained or pumped out to remove water and refilled. Once the car is drivable it should be changed a couple of times after a 30 mile drive when it is at operating temperature.

 

Most cars go into long term storage unprepared. Rarely does anyone put a car away and say "I'm going to leave this car for 30 years. I better take steps to protect and preserve it". Consider what they didn't do and why they should have. makes a good starting list.

[TexRiv_63]

Welcome, that is a very pretty 65, clean it up and go! Rebuilding a 4GC is not that tough as long as you have the right kit, and Jon will make sure it's right. Agree with Bernie on fluids, change everything and all filters. Unlike most I think points are fine, get a good set and set the dwell with an allen wrench. Unless you drive it 12,000 miles a year you will be good for a long time. Probably should consider a total brake job including all new lines if they are rusty.

[carbking]

If you can positively identify the carburetor as being correct, I would not suggest swapping it for a Carter.

 

50 or so years ago, Carter earned a "better" reputation among hot rodders. 

 

WHY?

 

Carter sponsored a number of race teams, actively pursued the high performance aftermarket, even to having a "Competition Department". Carter published parts sheets, service manuals, calibration recommendations, etc. Carter made available hundreds of calibration parts for those wishing to modify their carburetor. A call to the Competition Department would get an engineer on the telephone to help with problems. It was simply easier to modify the Carters for performance use.

 

Rochester published abbreviated service data, and abbreviated parts data.

 

Today:

 

The Carter Competition Department has been history for more than 35 years. Carter parts availability is mail order from a few companies specializing in carburetor parts (don't even think about the modern imitation parts readily available). Very little literature has been published in the last 35 years.

 

Rochester became popular when Cliff Ruggles wrote his book on modifying the Q-Jet.

Published literature, other than Cliff's book, still comes in a poor second to Carter, but parts availability is about the same.

 

As far as working on the carburetors, as long as one understands what one is doing, and uses the correct parts, just about the same.

 

As far as operation:

 

If your mechanic had one of each, correctly rebuilt, placed one on the car, locked the hood, and had you drive it 1000 miles; then return and have the mechanic install the other, you would not be able to tell if the mechanic actually changed the carburetors.

 

As far as reliability:

 

If you change the fuel and air filters at recommended intervals, either should easily go 100k miles without needing repair.

 

Both the genuine Carter AFB, and the Rochester 4GC are excellent carburetors.

 

EDIT: just re-read your first post that you are considering an electronic whizbang for ignition. I am glad to help you with carburetor problems if you have points. Total waste of my time to try to debug a "carburetor problem" if you have electronic ignition, other than to tell you to upgrade to points!

 

Jon

Edited December 9, 2021 by carbking (see edit history)

[carbking]

3 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

  Probably a matter of utilizing more than one supplier in case of labor problems, catastrophic occurences like a plant fire, etc...to guarantee supply so as not to interrupt new car production. I have seen a reference to the 4GC as having better driveability and fuel mileage in factory literature.

Tom Mooney

Supposedly, Buick was subject to a strike from its only carburetor supplier about 1932 or so.

 

When Buick upgraded the 40 series to a downdraft carburetor, they added Stromberg as a secondary supplier with Marvel being primary.

 

When Buick thankfully discontinued Marvels in 1939, Carter was added so Buick still had two carburetor suppliers.

 

During the 1950's, Buick sometimes had 3 suppliers, as Rochester was added.

 

Even after Buick discontinued the AFB, Carter was a secondary supplier, building Q-Jets under license from G.M.

 

Jon.

[RivNut]

I  can relate to what Jon says.  Back in '85, the 4GC on my 63 was in need of a rebuild at about 100K.  I found a 63 in a salvage yard with an AFB and a little over 40K on it.  I bought the AFB for $10 and was going to run it until I could get the Rochester rebuilt.  I bolted on the AFB and the engine fired right up.  I drove the car with the AFB on it for a while and thought to myself  "Why rebuild the Rochester when this Carter gives me the same performance and mileage. There's no difference in the two."  I never did rebuild the 4GC because of time and money.  One is as good as the other. My only reason for going with the Carter carb is because I think the AFB is easier for a DIYer to rebuild. 

[carbking]

Ed - if your DIYer is a novice, then I will agree, simply because of the availability of original, or aftermarket, literature. If your DIYer is an enthusiast with several carb rebuilds under his/her belt, then probably no difference. 

 

One "trick" you will probably never find in print: many of the 4-GC carbs on larger engines have an auxiliary air valve, spring-loaded, in a casting that fits in a cavity in the secondary side of the bowl. The spring SHOULD be replaced when rebuilding the carbs. The spring is the same spring as that used on the Quadrajet carbs. The adjustment is 1/2 turn past just touching closed at 65~70 degrees F.

 

A high mileage 4GC (150,000 or more miles) may experience a hesitation when the secondaries open due to a fatigued spring.

 

Jon

[Brtele]

2 hours ago, carbking said:

If you can positively identify the carburetor as being correct, I would not suggest swapping it for a Carter.

 

50 or so years ago, Carter earned a "better" reputation among hot rodders. 

 

WHY?

 

Carter sponsored a number of race teams, actively pursued the high performance aftermarket, even to having a "Competition Department". Carter published parts sheets, service manuals, calibration recommendations, etc. Carter made available hundreds of calibration parts for those wishing to modify their carburetor. A call to the Competition Department would get an engineer on the telephone to help with problems. It was simply easier to modify the Carters for performance use.

 

Rochester published abbreviated service data, and abbreviated parts data.

 

Today:

 

The Carter Competition Department has been history for more than 35 years. Carter parts availability is mail order from a few companies specializing in carburetor parts (don't even think about the modern imitation parts readily available). Very little literature has been published in the last 35 years.

 

Rochester became popular when Cliff Ruggles wrote his book on modifying the Q-Jet.

Published literature, other than Cliff's book, still comes in a poor second to Carter, but parts availability is about the same.

 

As far as working on the carburetors, as long as one understands what one is doing, and uses the correct parts, just about the same.

 

As far as operation:

 

If your mechanic had one of each, correctly rebuilt, placed one on the car, locked the hood, and had you drive it 1000 miles; then return and have the mechanic install the other, you would not be able to tell if the mechanic actually changed the carburetors.

 

As far as reliability:

 

If you change the fuel and air filters at recommended intervals, either should easily go 100k miles without needing repair.

 

Both the genuine Carter AFB, and the Rochester 4GC are excellent carburetors.

 

EDIT: just re-read your first post that you are considering an electronic whizbang for ignition. I am glad to help you with carburetor problems if you have points. Total waste of my time to try to debug a "carburetor problem" if you have electronic ignition, other than to tell you to upgrade to points!

 

Jon

Thanks Jon, I'm going to keep the points/condenser functional for the time being - I don't want to change too much at one time and then not know what caused a no-start issue. 

 

Regarding the Carter Carb - Aren't Edelbrock's absolutely the same as Carter AFB's???  Just kidding, I knew that was a hot topic when we spoke on the phone and wanted to give you a slight cardiovascular workout.  I have the Rochester halfway apart and should be able to compare existing/new gaskets/accelerator pump.  Thanks again for your help. 

[carbking]

55 minutes ago, Brtele said:

Thanks Jon - Regarding the Carter Carb - Aren't Edelbrock's absolutely the same as Carter AFB's???  Just kidding, I knew that was a hot topic when we spoke on the phone and wanted to give you a slight cardiovascular workout.  I have the Rochester halfway apart and should be able to compare existing/new gaskets/accelerator pump.  Thanks again for your help. 

You are welcome - we appreciate the order.

 

To your question: my analogy is the Ford Model T's are like Rolls Royce Silver Shadows...........................both have 4 wheels!  

 

Jon

Edited December 9, 2021 by carbking (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

2 hours ago, Brtele said:

Thanks Jon, I'm going to keep the points/condenser functional for the time being - I don't want to change too much at one time and then not know what caused a no-start issue. 

 

Regarding the Carter Carb - Aren't Edelbrock's absolutely the same as Carter AFB's???  Just kidding, I knew that was a hot topic when we spoke on the phone and wanted to give you a slight cardiovascular workout.  I have the Rochester halfway apart and should be able to compare existing/new gaskets/accelerator pump.  Thanks again for your help. 

  It`s been awhile since I rebuilt a 4GC, but if my memory serves me well, there is a gasket, I believe between the carb body and the cast iron base, that is commonly replaced with the incorrect gasket as the generic kits include several versions of the gasket. I`m sure Jon supplied the correct gasket but you may find someone has been into the carb before and used the wrong gasket. I have found this MANY times, as in addition to the occasional Buick 4GC, I have done many, many Olds Starfire 4GC`s in my youth. Maybe Jon can comment on the specific gasket..,.

Tom Mooney

[65VerdeGS]

6 hours ago, carbking said:

if you have electronic ignition, other than to tell you to upgrade to points!

HI Jon,

Can you elaborate on your statement above?  Many guys dump the original points/condenser setup for an electronic replacement, assuming this is superior to the old setup.  But your statement seems to contradict this?  One downside of going with Pertronix or similar is that when it fails, you're dead, unless you have spare parts with you. 

 

Your thoughts?

 

[carbking]

How is it superior?

 

Only that it works without maintenance until it quits, and then it doesn't work. The electronic switch doesn't supply more voltage.

 

There is an old cliche about "necessity being the mother of invention".

 

The planet survived for several years without the need for cell phones. They were invented slightly after the electronic conversions....................to call the tow truck

 

Seriously, if one wishes to downgrade their ignition, fine with me; but I am not going to waste time trying to debug a "carburetor issue" on a car with the electronic stuff. Switch it back and I will try to help. But the conversion is just one more unknown. I have "fixed" a BUNCH of "carburetor issues" with points. 

 

Jon

[edinmass]

Seems most of the experienced people here agree on running points. I also agree. I suggest that people take Jon’s advice and buy the correct carburetor for their application regardless of cost. A Buick sitting 20 years needs a fuel tank cleaned out, a rebuilt fuel pump, carburetor overhaul.......then we can get to the ignition system, electrical system, brake system, steering and suspension, ...........my point is make a plan before you start doing things out of order. First step........get a compression check done. As long as it runs well enough to warm up and check the water pump and cooling system..........just make it run. Check for oil leaks, rotted out oil pans......the list is endless. It’s 56 years old and sitting for a long time. Take your time, do it right.

 

 

PS- nice car........I like it. 👍

Edited December 10, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[71GS]

Congrats and welcome to the club. Great looking car. 

Brian

[Brtele]

Got the Rochester 4GC rebuilt utilizing Carb King's kit.  Really great customer service and got some awesome side stories out of Jon regarding automotive/carb/Carter/Edelbrock/Fuel/EPA subjects.  Very easy to put together kit and had everything the carb needed.  This site and it's members really helped as this was my 1st Rochester rebuild.

 

The next carb issue I'm experiencing is properly setting up the idle and fast idle.  I don't understand how the fast idle screw will automatically position itself on the 2nd step when the car needs it for a cold start.  I'll research it, but couldn't figure it out simply looking at it.

 

After warm-up, I got a decent 625 RPM idle, with a vacuum hovering at 17-18.

 

I need to check/set the dwell tonight.

 

I also need to check cylinder 1 TDC against the timing marks.  

 

Spark plugs and wires are coming soon also.

 

Transmission fluid was really low.

 

Can't get rear brakes to bleed.  Can get fluid to pass before the rear rubber hose - nothing after the rear distribution block. I can't get the rubber hose connection removed from the dist block, dang it.  But the fronts are bled with new fluid and the pedal feels goodish.

 

I'll keep knocking little things out.  Thanks again for a great forum!

[1965rivgs]

  Closed choke linkage will position the fast idle cam when the throttle is initially opened to set the choke..

  Why check the timing mark? I have seen balancers spin relative to their hub but not very common on a Nailhead.

  Post a pic of your rear brake hose and what aspect you are having trouble with.

Tom

[carbking]

1 hour ago, Brtele said:

The next carb issue I'm experiencing is properly setting up the idle and fast idle.  I don't understand how the fast idle screw will automatically position itself on the 2nd step when the car needs it for a cold start.  I'll research it, but couldn't figure it out simply looking at it.

 

It's magic!!!

 

Actually, Tom is correct, but magic sounds so much more technical

 

I think we covered this, but pick a time when the ambient (either outside or in your garage) is between 65 and 70 degrees F. and set the choke.

 

Unless Dr. Goodpliers (the evil twin of Mr. Goodwrench) has messed up the linkages, the choke setting should set the fast idle cam when you depress the footfeed to the floor once prior to starting a cold engine. If it doesn't, easy enough to bend the linkage, but try the choke setting first.

 

Jon.

[Seafoam65]

Having been in the old car hobby and the car repair business for 47 years, I have installed more Pertronix units than I can count

including on all my own cars decades ago and have never experienced one single failure.......I have however been left stranded on the side of the

road by a points and condensor set that was a week old........so no there is NOT a consensus among the experienced folks on this forum.  The only

reason a Pertronix ever fails is that people leave the key on without starting the engine. This is easy to avoid as there is no reason to ever do that in the first place.

With a Pertronix the dwell is always dead nuts perfect as well as the timing. Once it is set, you are done for the rest of your life with dwell and timing checks, and you can toss your dwell meter in the trash can.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

12 minutes ago, Seafoam65 said:

Having been in the old car hobby and the car repair business for 47 years, I have installed more Pertronix units than I can count

including on all my own cars decades ago and have never experienced one single failure.......I have however been left stranded on the side of the

road by a points and condensor set that was a week old........so no there is NOT a consensus among the experienced folks on this forum.  The only

reason a Pertronix ever fails is that people leave the key on without starting the engine. This is easy to avoid as there is no reason to ever do that in the first place.

With a Pertronix the dwell is always dead nuts perfect as well as the timing. Once it is set, you are done for the rest of your life with dwell and timing checks, and you can toss your dwell meter in the trash can.

 

 THANK YOU , Sir.   I had no problem with mine. I did go farther and converted my distributor to GM HEI  with the module mounted externally.  No going back.

 

  Ben

[psychostang]

More than likely, your rear flex hose is swollen on the inside.  Thereby blocking fluid to the drums.  Remember, drum brakes need volume before they create pressure

[TexRiv_63]

18 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

Having been in the old car hobby and the car repair business for 47 years, I have installed more Pertronix units than I can count

including on all my own cars decades ago and have never experienced one single failure.......I have however been left stranded on the side of the

road by a points and condensor set that was a week old........so no there is NOT a consensus among the experienced folks on this forum.  The only

reason a Pertronix ever fails is that people leave the key on without starting the engine. This is easy to avoid as there is no reason to ever do that in the first place.

With a Pertronix the dwell is always dead nuts perfect as well as the timing. Once it is set, you are done for the rest of your life with dwell and timing checks, and you can toss your dwell meter in the trash can.

I admit having no experience with Pertronix because I have never installed one. I have had a number of cars with GM HEI setups and have been stranded TWICE with module failures. I'd rather carry a screwdriver and feeler gauge than a spare module and I do still have my dwell meter.

[telriv]

Biggest problem seems to be with the condenses not so much the points themselves. Just remember to lube the rubbing block with the proper grease.

I have been using the one wire electronic ignition conversions going on 20 years now with NO reported problems. So far for me has been worry free.

 

Tom T.

[EmTee]

2 hours ago, telriv said:

Biggest problem seems to be with the condenses not so much the points themselves.

See the linked forum thread for info on how to get around the cheap condenser issue.  So far, mine are holding up, but I'd like to try the suggested mod.

 

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/372008-distributor-wiring/#comment-2308111

[Seafoam65]

On 12/24/2021 at 11:40 AM, TexRiv_63 said:

I admit having no experience with Pertronix because I have never installed one. I have had a number of cars with GM HEI setups and have been stranded TWICE with module failures. I'd rather carry a screwdriver and feeler gauge than a spare module and I do still have my dwell meter.

You are correct.......HEI distributors are a nightmare of unreliability......probably the most unreliable ignition ever designed by anyone.........Pertronix conversions however are quite reliable and troublefree. As a side note,

back in 1979 my Dad bought a brand new 79 Camaro and the HEI failed the second day he owned it.....had to be towed in.