Distributor Wiring

[B Rogers 1946]

I am in the process of starting up the 6 cyl. engine in my 1946 Chrysler Windsor. While changing the points and condenser I noticed a newer wire in that area (see photo attached). Is this wire suppose to be here?

 

I can turn the engine over, checked the coil and new wires.

 

Any help is appreciated.

[c49er]

Yes a wire should be there.

But it needs to be a very flexible very  fine strand wire....it's a breaker plate ground wire.

[joe_padavano]

17 minutes ago, c49er said:

Yes a wire should be there.

But it needs to be a very flexible very  fine strand wire....it's a breaker plate ground wire.

^^^This! The vacuum advance rotates the breaker plate inside the distributor housing. That wire ensures there is a good ground despite the oiled bushings that the breaker plate pivots on. As noted, a stiff wire can prevent movement and thus alter the vacuum advance curve.

[trini]

This wire can be bought from electronic supplier TUBES AND MORE. by the foot.

[Bloo]

I can't tell what is going on in that photo.

 

On any distributor like yours, where the vacuum advance moves the breaker plate and the connection to the outside is a binding post, there are TWO wires. One is insulated and connects the binding post to the points (and condenser). The other is usually bare and connects from the moving breaker plate to the distributor housing.

 

These are special wires with strands of copper and strands of spring steel. If you use regular copper wire it probably won't last long. The breaker plate is constantly moving back and forth when you drive. Copper work hardens and can't take a lot of bending before it breaks.

 

If you can't get those wires for your make and model from one of the Chrysler parts suppliers, some common ones from much later will work. The bare one is easy. For one about an inch and a half long including the ring terminals, look at a 1960s V8 Ford. 1960s Chrysler ones are slightly longer I think. 1960s GM/Chevrolet V8 wires are a little longer yet. As for the insulated one, I don't know exactly, but Buick used something like that from the 1930s until the mid 50s, so maybe one of the Buick suppliers would have something useful.

 

 

[c49er]

The original Autolite ground wire is copper strand.

Extremely fine strand...guessing maybe 40 strands of wire.

The wire has a cloth jacket too.

Edited December 15, 2021 by c49er (see edit history)

[B Rogers 1946]

Here is a better image. C49er thank you for your photo that helps. Now I have to find the fine wire you all mention. The research begins! 

Thank you all for the quick replies.

[c49er]

I once put that sane typical parts store wire in my 50 Plymouth when I was a kid....car quit running..

The cause...that stiff replacement wire.

No ground..No spark.😏

 

 

[joe_padavano]

11 hours ago, B Rogers 1946 said:

Here is a better image. C49er thank you for your photo that helps. Now I have to find the fine wire you all mention. The research begins! 

Thank you all for the quick replies.

 

This photo shows that the original ground wire is in place at the top of the photo. The green wire with the parts store crimp terminals is apparently a replacement for the wire from the points to the negative terminal on the coil. The blue sleeve appears to be a piece of tubing or shrink sleeve slipped over the wire from the condenser. Both of those latter two appear to be too stiff to allow the breaker plate to move freely.

Edited December 15, 2021 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[B Rogers 1946]

In my research for the distributor wire between the points and the negative terminal of the coil I have seen mention about converting to electronic ignition. If I went that route is wire still necessary since you hook to positive and negative terminals of the coil?

 

Thanks to all of you for taking the time!

[Bloo]

It depends on how you do it. In every kit I have seen for an antique the ground wire is necessary, because the module grounds the coil through the breaker plate just like the points did.

 

The wire to the points on the other hand is not because there are no points to connect it to.

 

Once upon a time, in the 70s, there were optical kits that put the ignition module out on the firewall (Crane?) and only had an optical trigger inside the distributor, so no ground on the breaker plate was needed. Similarly, some magnetic triggered systems, like Chrysler Electronic, Ford DuraSpark, etc. had only a magnetic trigger in the distributor that was not grounded in any way. People have used parts from factory made systems like this in custom made conversions.

 

Pertronix kits on the other hand, and other similar things, typically put the whole ignition module inside the distributor and have 2 wires that go in. One is power for the module. the second is the wire to fire the coil (a replacement for the old points wire). The module grounds through the breaker plate, both for it's own power, and to ground the coil to fire the points. If a ground wire was necessary with the points, it still is.

 

I think electronic conversions are not a great idea on 6 volt cars, but you will get plenty of different opinions about that.

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, B Rogers 1946 said:

In my research for the distributor wire between the points and the negative terminal of the coil I have seen mention about converting to electronic ignition. If I went that route is wire still necessary since you hook to positive and negative terminals of the coil?

 

Thanks to all of you for taking the time!

Every conversion kit I've seen uses new wiring to replace that one. In any case, do you REALLY need an electronic conversion? None of the aftermarket kits are as well engineered or tested as OEM systems, and there are no OEM six volt electronic distributors, so aftermarket is your only option. These "points replacement" electronic kits really are just electronic on/off switches and perform exactly the same function as the mechanical points. Yes, there are high-end electronic ignition systems with real benefits for high performance applications. Be aware, however, that with one of these bolt-in point replacement kits there will be zero improvement over correctly maintained points. Everyone claims their car runs much better with an electronic conversion because a) they are always replacing old, pitted, out-of-adjustment points, and b) the "butt dyno" always tells you that after you spent all that time and money, OF COURSE there was an improvement. Yes, I've installed electronic conversions in some of my older cars, mainly because I'm lazy. I neither expected nor saw any performance difference.

Edited December 18, 2021 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[pmhowe]

I agree with Joe and Bloo. I have used the Pertronics ignition kits on a few cars in the past, and found a high failure rate, so I switched back to the standard points and condenser systems. To be fair, my experience with them is at least ten years out of date, so reliability may have improved. On the other hand, reliability of condensers has not improved: I have had several recently purchased made-in-China condensers fail in short order.

 

Should you decide to stick with the points and condenser approach, I highly recommend the approach shown below:

 

Posted by Fred Winterburn on MogGroup ( a site for Morgan owners). “If you want to make a bulletproof condenser, I suggested a modern retrofit to an MG owner and it is being used by more than one MG owner and a guy with a Porsche. It is a 1000V rated ceramic capacitor rated at 125 degrees C and if potted inside an original condenser shell works even better than the paper/foil crappy ones when they are new. It tested significantly better on my test rig than an equivalent condenser with the same μF capacity. It's quite small and fit easily inside the Lucas shell. I potted it in place with JB weld (it has to be potted in epoxy to be reliable). One lead is soldered to the inside of the can and the other to a piece of teflon insulated wire. See the pic of the standard condenser and the retrofit condenser on my Morgan. This is not hard to do if you can solder and worth doing in my opinion. The capacitor that I used can be bought at many electronics parts stores. Just google it: Kemet brand, 1000V, 0.22μF, part # C350C224KDR5TA If you go this route it would be the last condenser it ever needed. I put mine through a considerable amount of abuse during testing with no degradation. Fred”

[edinmass]

We have been running those solid state condensers since 1986. To my knowledge, every one I ever installed is still driving down the road.

[Frank DuVal]

7 hours ago, edinmass said:

We have been running those solid state condensers since 1986.

What is a solid state condenser?

 

Capacitor is a condenser.

 

Ceramic is just a different dielectric than paper and wax. Ceramic is superior to paper type capacitors.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

8 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

What is a solid state condenser?

 

Capacitor is a condenser.

 

Ceramic is just a different dielectric than paper and wax. Ceramic is superior to paper type capacitors.

I was going to ask the same question, but if you read between the lines, I believe "solid state" refers to ceramic as opposed to "liquid state" electrolytic. I'll admit that's not the usage of the term that I'm familiar with, but it isn't wrong either.