My 65 Riviera - start the fun (pain)

[Brtele]

Welp, did my “good deed” for the car today and replaced the rear flexible brake line. The car rewarded me by breaking the drivers side rear hard brake line connection at the distribution block. As much as it pains me to say, it was totally my fault by applying a little too much “how’s your father” while trying to remove the old brake line from the distribution block.

 

Up to the parts store for brake line. Dang it.

[protrash63]

I just took this junction apart a few weeks ago and the clip was actually the hardest part for me!

[Brtele]

It's a Christmas miracle - I replaced the drivers rear hard brake line and got the entire system bled with new Dot 3 - firm pedal.

 

Side note- I’m horrible at creating a good looking double flares. Made (6) decent ones that I just didn’t feel great about and then found out Napa sells various length pre flared steel for less than $10 a pop.  My flare tool was gently thrown back in my tool box for possibly/hopefully the rest of my life.

[Brtele]

Changed my focus back to the mechanical tuneup. 
 

Set the dwell to dead on 30, blipped the throttle a couple of times and the dwell stayed static at 30.  All with the distributor vacuum unplugged.

 

Kept the dist vacuum unplugged and started working through the timing.

 

set the timing to 3 at 500 rpm and got the following advance with no vacuum to the dist:

10 - 1000

15 - 1100

20 - 1560

25 - 2200

 

Following timing with vacuum hooked up:

19 - 500

25 - 830

30 - 1020

40 - 2030

 

I can’t get the drive idle to 510-520 without park idle set to 850.  I thought an AC car needed to be set to 550. Is this offset correct? Feels like park idle is racing.

 

Car is driving ok at part throttle and cruise, but stumbles under a little load.

 

Plug wires and plugs are getting changed this week.  Hoping this will clean up some of the stumble, but it feels like fuel.  Maybe not, fingers crossed.

 

Positive note- the brakes in this thing are awesome. And the ride and turning radius is way better than I had imagined.

 

Making good progress towards passing state inspection!

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Brtele (see edit history)

[Wayne R]

Brandon,  , congratulations  on your wonderful 65,  you will be really happy with it  when you get  all the little items  repaired, and running fine.

Sorry im a bit late in  maybe helping,  but will start  with , i realize you have done your  dwell, timing ,etc, but i may be wrong  did you fit new points and condenser ,reason is even with  bad  -  burnt-- points  and dwell set at thirty--can still  get  hesitation at low revs from an engine.  good points are critical for good operation, also  when you purchase new plugs and  wires , most use  black  7mm  wires   original , and i can understand that , but there  are far better  wires these days , example  you can buy 7.5mm electronic power seal insulated jacket type, that are far superior,  and these dont track across each other, like some original black wires,--you can test this on your  wires    by starting your car at night-, you will see the sparks  at the wires .I notice on your wires they are zip tied  in a few places together, get rid of those,  Buick always used wire retainers  like i think you have one to separate  wires.  make sure you obtain correct  heat range plugs ,, and purchase quality points  example,-Bosch,--Some Delco,--Echlin etc,  dont buy vented points,, they have a small hole  where the points  meet, and can fail after about  500  to 1000 miles.

Talking  re points again , when set at thirty with dwell meter, checking with  feeler gauge after can be only about 10 or 12 thou,,or 19-20 thou because points may be  like a mountain have highs and lows, and the dwell meter does not allow for that.  If you go with pertronix  or similiar  do it later ,just get you car running great first, but when you do , warning there is 3  grades or pertronix,,1--11--111  the later 11 and 111  are best dont buy pertronix 1, like others have said they fail if you leave ignition on for more than 4-5 minutes,  i fitted my first  pertronix 1   in 1991, and  many more pertronix 11  later on 

until about 4 years still on point with  my present 1964  Buick Electra convertible, my eleventh Buick.

When you  change wires , clean the inside of  center coil wire connection inside they can corrode green. and the inside or replace your  distributor cap

and rotor.---regards.

[Brtele]

1 hour ago, Wayne R said:

Brandon,  , congratulations  on your wonderful 65,  you will be really happy with it  when you get  all the little items  repaired, and running fine.

Sorry im a bit late in  maybe helping,  but will start  with , i realize you have done your  dwell, timing ,etc, but i may be wrong  did you fit new points and condenser ,reason is even with  bad  -  burnt-- points  and dwell set at thirty--can still  get  hesitation at low revs from an engine.  good points are critical for good operation, also  when you purchase new plugs and  wires , most use  black  7mm  wires   original , and i can understand that , but there  are far better  wires these days , example  you can buy 7.5mm electronic power seal insulated jacket type, that are far superior,  and these dont track across each other, like some original black wires,--you can test this on your  wires    by starting your car at night-, you will see the sparks  at the wires .I notice on your wires they are zip tied  in a few places together, get rid of those,  Buick always used wire retainers  like i think you have one to separate  wires.  make sure you obtain correct  heat range plugs ,, and purchase quality points  example,-Bosch,--Some Delco,--Echlin etc,  dont buy vented points,, they have a small hole  where the points  meet, and can fail after about  500  to 1000 miles.

Talking  re points again , when set at thirty with dwell meter, checking with  feeler gauge after can be only about 10 or 12 thou,,or 19-20 thou because points may be  like a mountain have highs and lows, and the dwell meter does not allow for that.  If you go with pertronix  or similiar  do it later ,just get you car running great first, but when you do , warning there is 3  grades or pertronix,,1--11--111  the later 11 and 111  are best dont buy pertronix 1, like others have said they fail if you leave ignition on for more than 4-5 minutes,  i fitted my first  pertronix 1   in 1991, and  many more pertronix 11  later on 

until about 4 years still on point with  my present 1964  Buick Electra convertible, my eleventh Buick.

When you  change wires , clean the inside of  center coil wire connection inside they can corrode green. and the inside or replace your  distributor cap

and rotor.---regards.

Wayne, thanks for the detailed response/assistance.  

The plug wires coming in today are Taylor’s spiro pro 8.8.

 

Plugs I’ve got ready are the delco R45S gapped to .035. I know it’s a step hotter than stock, but should be fine based on the timing being in a good spot.

 

I did not replace the points, cap and rotor yet, but was thinking the same thing yesterday - I might go ahead and replace due to the relative low cost of replacement.  I’m going to check the points gap with the current dwell setting to ensure points are acceptable. I might wait to replace the points as they look “newish”, but keep the spare set on me.

 

 At some point I was going to check the coils primary secondary ohm readings as the coil looks original. I believe it’s working fine, but wouldn’t mind knowing what it’s putting out.

 

I’ve got a bunch of silicon vacuum from previous projects and might start working my way through replacing vacuum lines.  The new vacuum line is blue, so please don’t shoot me for not being color correct.

 

Looking forward to making some more progress this week as I’m off work this week.  But regardless, was really excited my son and I got to swing it around the block yesterday

 

Thanks again for keeping me inline.

[1965rivgs]

13 minutes ago, Brtele said:

Wayne, thanks for the detailed response/assistance.  

The plug wires coming in today are Taylor’s spiro pro 8.8.

 

Plugs I’ve got ready are the delco R45S gapped to .035. I know it’s a step hotter than stock, but should be fine based on the timing being in a good spot.

 

I did not replace the points, cap and rotor yet, but was thinking the same thing yesterday - I might go ahead and replace due to the relative low cost of replacement.  I’m going to check the points gap with the current dwell setting to ensure points are acceptable. I might wait to replace the points as they look “newish”, but keep the spare set on me.

 

 At some point I was going to check the coils primary secondary ohm readings as the coil looks original. I believe it’s working fine, but wouldn’t mind knowing what it’s putting out.

 

I’ve got a bunch of silicon vacuum from previous projects and might start working my way through replacing vacuum lines.  The new vacuum line is blue, so please don’t shoot me for not being color correct.

 

Looking forward to making some more progress this week as I’m off work this week.  But regardless, was really excited my son and I got to swing it around the block yesterday

 

Thanks again for keeping me inline.

Do a compression check

Tom Mooney

[Brtele]

44 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

Do a compression check

Tom Mooney

I don’t want to...I’m too scared. But you’re right. I’m planning to when I pull the plugs.

[Wayne R]

When you remove your   plugs, they will tell you all you want to know   ,with your compression,

keep them in order as you remove them ,number them in order ,and keep them, and study them  carefully ,  deposits on them ,there colour,

the  colour of the electrode, .

I would set  plug gap  at 30--32   no  bigger.   regards.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Wayne R (see edit history)

[telriv]

As long as you have a GOOD ignition system , especially spark plug wires, I run mine at .050" with NEVER a complaint or a problem.

Been this way for more than 40 years.

 

Tom T.

Edited December 29, 2021 by telriv (see edit history)

[Brtele]

I couldn’t find my compression tester today, but went ahead with replacing the driver side bank of plugs/wires.

 

Existing plugs were AC Delco R45s gapped to .028-.030 and very fouled. Still wet with fuel.  Cylinder 6 was by far the worst and was tough to remove due to rust around the base.  I was worried about cracking #8, so protectively shot some pb blaster at it and the passenger side plugs.

 

Existing cables were way out of resistance spec.

#2 36” - 1801 ohms

#4 28” - 2155

#6 28” - 17.9k

#8 26” - 1965

 

Coil wire 14” - 7.5k ohms

 

The new cables were all within Taylor’s specs once assembled and tested.

 

I’ll be honest, I’m tentative to fire it back up with the new plugs for fear of fouling them right away. But I guess I could fire it up, warm it up and run around the block to see if the plugs are wet.

 

I wouldn’t mind seeing if the shot coil wire was causing a weak spark and not burning efficiently. It also might have contributed to my timing light intermittently not flickering light.
 

Bonus was the spider egg sack laid in #2’s plug well - you can see the egg sack in the pics. That was a first for me.

[Brtele]

Another picture of 2 & 4 plugs.  

[TexRiv_63]

Plugs look oil and gas fouled - compression test very important.

[Brtele]

Passenger spark plugs. 1&3 were gapped to .020. 5&6 were .030.  All very fouled.

[Brtele]

1 minute ago, TexRiv_63 said:

Plugs look oil and gas fouled - compression test very important.

I agree they look very fouled. Compression test soon.  I’m going to clean the pcv valve, replace the vacuum line to it and fire up the engine to see how it’s running.

 

Just guessing, but believe my valves are really sticky. The valve train was noisy when I first brought it home, but it slowly smoothing out and getting quite.

[1965rivgs]

  "Reading" your old plugs as an indication of current health is relatively worthless. The reason is because you have little or no idea how your car was operated previous to your ownership. If the car was pulled in and out of a storage space and not allowed to get off the choke and not operated as a typical car should be, the plugs could have been hopelessly fouled before you purchased the car. I have seen this MANY times. Now you have some running time on the engine but if the plugs were already fouled they wont give you an accurate picture of current "combustion health", nor will the engine run well with hopelessly fouled plugs, even if all else, carb-ignition-timing, is right. I can tell you those plugs are OLD, as in age, unless the previous owner invested in collectible spark plugs. They were probably junk when you bought the car and they still are junk. Install a new set, make sure you put enough run time on the engine to get off the choke and up to full operating temp for a considerable period of time, and then read the plugs.

 

Tom Mooney

[RivNut]

Are you sure those are not the plugs that came with the car when it was shipped from Flint?  😎

[Brtele]

Well, I’m now a no start.  I put the new .035 gapped R45S plugs in with new Taylor spiro pro wires in (tested resistance on every new wire). Went to start the car and it fired for a couple of seconds then flooded.
 

Waited 10 minutes, got a little bump but wouldn’t even come close to running.

 

Waited 4 hours and got nothing but another flooded engine. Pulled plugs 5 & 6 and they’re wet with gas - no oil.

 

I’m afraid the Rochester 4gc is not functioning properly. It really smells like gas and I’ve only tried starting it for 10-15 second total. 

 

Completely agree those old plugs are old and do not necessarily give a good indication of the current running condition.

 

I’m surprised the old plugs/wires would keep the engine running, but the new plugs/wires won’t come close to running. Makes me believe I’ve got something hooked up incorrectly and not getting good spark everywhere. 

[1965rivgs]

  Did you try to starting the engine by holding the accel pedal to the floor and forcing the choke open? 

  If you have no spark then you are not firing the fuel so no surprise you are smelling raw fuel and the plugs look wet. Verify that you have spark before condemning the carb.

  Go back over your work...if the engine ran on those old plugs it should run on the new ones, even if the carb isnt quite right.

 

Tom

[Brtele]

10 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

  Did you try to starting the engine by holding the accel pedal to the floor and forcing the choke open? 

  If you have no spark then you are not firing the fuel so no surprise you are smelling raw fuel and the plugs look wet. Verify that you have spark before condemning the carb.

  Go back over your work...if the engine ran on those old plugs it should run on the new ones, even if the carb isnt quite right.

 

Tom

I completely agree with what you’re saying. Even if the carb is running rich now, it was running rich with the old plugs/wires and ran.
 

I’ll check for spark at each plug and make sure my points are properly set.

 

I also tried the accelerator pedal to the floor once I thought it was flooded but got nowhere. 
 

i was really careful to take 1 wire off at a time, but will ensures I’ve got them connected to the correct spots.

[Brtele]

I removed the coil to test resistance and came up with:

Primary - 1.1

Secondary - 7.62k (Tested it with the cable on too to ensure it wasn’t a problem)

At first I had trouble getting a stable reading from the primary side. Cleaned up the posts and held the probes firm and static to the post in order to get 1.1 to finally read.  The secondary reading would pop up immediately, but it would take some finagling to get the primary to calm down (would bounce all over the place).

 

I also ordered a new cap, rotor, points and condenser (Echlin at Napa) to install later today/tomorrow.

 

Please let me know if you see anything I’m missing

[1965rivgs]

  Did you check for spark at the plugs or coil wire into the distributor? Results?

  I dont think it is likely in this case because you had the motor running, but very often after a car is idle for an extended period of time the points will oxidize over and result in no spark.....or the points could be burned. Drag a piece of crocus cloth or an all metal fingernail file between the points to clean them up. It only takes a couple of minutes and costs nothing.

  Did you check basics like voltage to the "+" side of the coil before testing the coil itself?

  Just some thoughts....start with basics, confirm and then move on to specifics/specific components.

Tom

[Brtele]

Actually had a project go as expected this afternoon and not turn into an avalanche of other things. The new Stant gas cap arrived and replaced the existing tired cap. I feel pretty good about how efficiently I completed this job considering it’s a 9 on the scale of difficulty. 

[Wayne R]

6 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

  Did you check for spark at the plugs or coil wire into the distributor? Results?

  I dont think it is likely in this case because you had the motor running, but very often after a car is idle for an extended period of time the points will oxidize over and result in no spark.....or the points could be burned. Drag a piece of crocus cloth or an all metal fingernail file between the points to clean them up. It only takes a couple of minutes and costs nothing.

  Did you check basics like voltage to the "+" side of the coil before testing the coil itself?

  Just some thoughts....start with basics, confirm and then move on to specifics/specific components.

Tom

Branden--as Tom has said is  all good--distributor is where you should have started first, look very carefully at your above photos  re points

they look very greasy black the points side facing us, try what Tom said, even though  you have new points coming, i  use wet and dry paper 

about approx 200 weight, fold a small piece 2 inches long by 1/4 inch,so it is dougle sidded   spray it with  a little brake clean,--and then slide it back and forth a few times ,then clean and dry  by holding points open  for 5 minutes to let dry.---Then  see if it starts.    You will get it going  good luck.

Edited January 1, 2022 by Wayne R (see edit history)

[Brtele]

1 hour ago, Wayne R said:

Branden--as Tom has said is  all good--distributor is where you should have started first, look very carefully at your above photos  re points

they look very greasy black the points side facing us, try what Tom said, even though  you have new points coming, i  use wet and dry paper 

about approx 200 weight, fold a small piece 2 inches long by 1/4 inch,so it is dougle sidded   spray it with  a little brake clean,--and then slide it back and forth a few times ,then clean and dry  by holding points open  for 5 minutes to let dry.---Then  see if it starts.    You will get it going  good luck.

Wayne/Tom,

 Thanks so much for pitching in to provide advice.

 

 Please don’t blast me for this, but I started playing parts bingo today. I went ahead abs got new points, rotor and distributor cap installed (all Echlin).

 

 Napa initially gave me a points and condenser that were separated. I explained my existing points/condenser were a single unit and they knew exactly what I was talking about and came back with a connected unit (see pics)

 

Also, the new rotors center connection is lower than the existing. The existing rotors center looked to be bent to a higher level - so I don’t really know what is spec height. I’m hoping the new rotor touching the caps center - I’ll test it to make sure.

 

i also kept ask the existing parts just in case.

 

I’ll get the coil back in tomorrow, start testing the chain and see if it fires back up. 

[Wayne R]

No  problem---take a break and have a relaxed   happy new year.

[Brtele]

Got the ignition coil back in and tested a good 12vdc at the coil when the key was on.  Turned over - no start - not even a fire.

 

Took out #4 plug and grounded to the power steering pump bracket to see if I was getting a spark. I am.
 

I’m a little stumped and taking a break to think.  I shot a video of the spark, but don’t know how to upload it.

[Brtele]

Got a couple of still frames from the video.

[Wayne R]

Brandon PM sent you a few photos from service manual,   hope it helps.

[Brtele]

I went back to square 1 and got an acceptable gap in the points (it’s actually a real pia to get a feeler gauge in there with this combined set of points and condenser). Turned over - no start, but not surprised.

 

Got the battery charging and will check/set the correct dwell while cranking the engine tomorrow.
 

The other thing I’m thinking about doing it’s disconnecting the fuel line to the carb and hooking it to a gas can. This would keep me from dumping fuel down the cylinders while figuring out this issue and allow me to see fuel flow and if I’m passing anything other than fuel from the tank/filter.

 

 I’m just confused how changing the plugs and wires would create this issue. Especially since it was running close to average with terrible plugs and wires.  I know the old plugs were set at .030 and I gapped the new plugs to .035, but I wouldn’t think this wouldn’t cause an issue unless the coil is weak. 
 

i know I need to run a compression test and have a new tool delivering this Friday. I’ll have compression readings very soon.

[EmTee]

Use a 12V test light or Ohm meter to check that the distributor breaker plate is grounded well.  The distributor looks a little crusty, so you may have disturbed a marginal ground connection on that wire while swapping the points & condenser.  Knowing that it's a bit of a PITA, I'd consider pulling the distributor out and cleaning it up on the bench.  That will also make it much easier to set the initial point gap.  Just be sure to set the crankshaft to TDC on #1 and note the rotor alignment and its movement as the distributor gear disengages from the cam gear.  As long as the engine isn't disturbed, the distributor should drop right back in when the rotor is set to point where it was when it separated from the engine.

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by EmTee (see edit history)

[telriv]

That ground wire looks intact

[Wayne R]

Like Emtee  said    ,removing the distributor  easy to  clean as set,  but---a warning here, when removing--

watch at the top , hold the the  rotor  top of  so it does not move, when lifting out,  as it  can nearly always does 

flick about  10--15 degress  out ,--Make a  mark on the distributor base in line with center of rotor, and carefully note the 

the direction the  vacuum unit points in relation to the engine.---good luck.

[Brtele]

37 minutes ago, Wayne R said:

Like Emtee  said    ,removing the distributor  easy to  clean as set,  but---a warning here, when removing--

watch at the top , hold the the  rotor  top of  so it does not move, when lifting out,  as it  can nearly always does 

flick about  10--15 degress  out ,--Make a  mark on the distributor base in line with center of rotor, and carefully note the 

the direction the  vacuum unit points in relation to the engine.---good luck.

Thanks for the advice. I think I got them adjusted close enough to start, but if I end up taking the dist out I’ll follow your procedure. It’s identical to how I’ve previously removed them as I’m terrified I’ll never get it stabbed in the correct spot.

[Brtele]

I had my thinking cap on today and thought the only thing that changed when I replaced the plugs and wires was the spark plug gap. And it’s possible that if the ignition coil was getting weak, then it couldn’t overcome the increased distance. That’s it, the coil has gone bad - I know it.

 

 Came home changed out the coil and checked over all the wiring to ensure it’s all plugged in properly prior to firing this bad boy up.  Leaned over the carb and blipped the throttle prior to making sure the car choke is set up for ignition- what a second, I didn’t see the accelerator pump push two streams out. Blipped it again and nothing.  Got in the car and turned it over, still nothing, not even remotely firing.

 

 Grabbed a can of carb cleaner and gave a quick shot down the throat. Got back in hit the ignition and it fired up right away.  Are you kidding me!!!! It’s possibly been fuel this whole time??? 
 

I’m going to pull the fuel supply line off, hook to an aux container and see if it’ll throw fuel in it while cranking the engine.

 

 Glad I’ve possibly narrowed it down to fuel. Worst case - the tank is full of junk and needs to be replaced.

[Brtele]

Took the filter off and turned the engine over with the starter - no fuel coming up at all.

 

 Either bad fuel pump or a blockage before the pump.

 

 Pump looks brand new, but could be twenty years old “brand new” and left to rot after replacing it.

[tenugent]

Took sending unit out of tank of 67 mustang that sat for 7 years,looked like it was in mollasis.Tank had grit in bottom.Im going to check my 63.T.N.roa 12969

[Brtele]

I had a chance to test the fuel pump last night.

 

- Removed the supply line to the fuel pump - Gasoline quickly began flowing from the supply line after removal indicating I didn't have significant blockage from the tank to the fuel pump.

 

- Hooked a new 4' of fuel line to the fuel pump input and filled it with fuel.  Kept the fuel pump output line connected.  Cranked the motor for a good 20 seconds and got nothing out of the output line - not a drop.  Disconnected the input side and all of the test fuel dumped out.

 

I'm now purchasing a replacement fuel pump and hoping I can get it going again.

[EmTee]

I think you found the problem...

[Brtele]

Replaced the fuel pump with a Carquest unit (not as easy as I thought it was gonna be - took forever to find the correct extensions/knuckles/socket depth).  I found it easier to work from the top side of the motor instead of underneath. Also had the motor turned to tdc.

 

 Used a very thin film of gasket maker, tightened up and connected all fuel lines.
 

I was a little worried about the line from the tank to the fuel pump. When I pulled the plug from the line before reconnecting to the new pump, no fuel came out at all. I blew my air towards the tank twice but gas wouldn’t start falling out. I would assume fuel would flow out of this line based on it being lower than the tank.

 

i hooked a hand vacuum pump to the line, pumped a couple times and easily got fuel to flow. I then hooked it back up to the fuel pump.

 

 Cranked the motor for a little to see if the fuel pump would prime the carb - it didn’t. I threw some gas down the vents and the engine fired right up cold, but quickly ran out of gas. I primed the carb 4-5 more times to see if I could get the pump finally going - no luck.

 

I replaced the filter with a new clear filter without the return line (A/C).  Plugged the return line, primed the carb bowl with fuel and brought the Thunder.  It ran great for about 10 seconds and then died of fuel starvation. The clear filter was definitely getting fuel from the pump but wouldn’t fill the filter up higher than a quarter of height of the filter.

 

 I’m stumped.

 

 I’m thinking about hooking a marine gas tank up to the fuel pump to see if it’ll run off a known good gas tank.