Factory Performance -Pre-War Style

[pkhammer]

   I've been a Ford guy for a long time and I find it interesting how the Model A when it was introduced was considered a pretty fast car, especially in the low price field. Probably not many cars in 1928 that could run 60+ mph. Then Ford introduces the V8 and those were the factory "hot rods" for a long time, at least among the low priced makes.

  My question is this; what other low price makes at the time (20s-30s) were considered fast cars? I suppose the OHV sixes of the time such as the Studebaker Big Six and Hudson Super Six would be in the mix. I also just read about the 1933 Essex-Terraplane Eight (one year only?) which was considered a fast car and one of the favorites of John Dillinger.

  What are some other fast/powerful cars of the era.

[TerryB]

I always wondered if the 1929 six cylinder Chevrolet would be a faster and smoother car than the Ford A.  Maybe a Dodge 8 too?

[pkhammer]

  The early Chevy sixes had 50 hp I believe compared to the Ford model A 40 hp. The Chevy was a bit heavier though so I'd bet on the road performance was similar. A lot of folks went for the "Six for the price of a four" slogan Chevy used at the time. My Dad's first car was a '29 Chevy. I wish I had a photo of it.

[TerryB]

No car but I have this.

Edited October 30, 2021 by TerryB (see edit history)

[pkhammer]

If I were a new car buyer in 1929 I would've probably chosen the Chevy (and traded it in in 1932 when Ford introduced the V8 😃).

[1912Staver]

I wonder how a Kissel Gold Bug or Marmon 8 speedster would rate ?

[hidden_hunter]

1 hour ago, pkhammer said:

Then Ford introduces the V8 and those were the factory "hot rods" for a long time, at least among the low priced makes.

Isn’t that really its main claim to fame? A low cost v8? 
 

It’s not something I’ve done a tonne of research into but things like the Buicks of the time had similar horsepower didn’t they?

 

 How much was marketing vs actual performance?

Edited October 30, 2021 by hidden_hunter (see edit history)

[pkhammer]

I think the Buick 8 had at least as much if not a bit more but in a larger, heavier car.

[ply33]

There is at least some sources that seem to claim that in 1933 the Chevy was a laggard for acceleration and top speed. Unfortunately the table mixes body styles so the comparisons are not as good as they might be, but see the table about 3/4 down the page at https://www.allpar.com/threads/reflections-of-the-fleet-part-1-cars-made-for-police-taxi-service.229163/#post-1085223261 comparing performance of the 1933 Ford, Chevrolet and Plymouth.

[TerryB]

Many years ago I had a neighbor who always talked about the Essex Super Six as a car with lots of performance.  Don’t know any more than that but when I see an Essex it reminds me of the stories he used to tell.

[1912Staver]

Essex cars were quite popular as the basis for race cars. 

[pkhammer]

[60FlatTop]

Here is a picture from the 1990's of a 1933 Terraplane 8 that I had in for cooling system work. The coolant distribution manifold was partially blocked by an improperly fabricated gasket. Them's the bare cylinders.

The car was very fast. I had to put it through its paces on a hot summer day to be sure it wouldn't let the owner down. Really a quick car. And quite small. Smooth as butter and a joy to drive.

I owned a complete chassis of the same type at the time and had a few conversations with Mr. Bell. the owner of Miss Daisy's Hudson. He had a Railton he offered up as a body pattern for me to measure. When the internet opened up Ed Moore and I got together and he ended up with my chassis.

 

With the cooling system operating the Terraplane went on to a bit more famous end. Below is a review of the car as it is today.

 

 

 

[pkhammer]

  Now I want one. 🤩

[TerryB]

It seems if you span the years 1928-1936 the cars of that era gained more cylinders and horsepower as the thirties progressed.  Staying in the low price cars area, did any still use or offer a four cylinder for economy?  The effects of the depression were still being felt so I would think fuel economy in the lower priced cars won out over speed.  By late 1930s I would guess the economy concerns were dropping off.

 

Also- very good topic to bring up on a slow day for me.  I’ve been doing my best to stay out of the Halloween candy so the local kids can get at least one or two😉.

[MCHinson]

I can't answer for earlier cars but starting in 1936, The Buick Century was a real contender in the factory high performance category. It had the same small lightweight body as the Buick Special, a body which was also shared with Chevrolet, but with the larger 320 Straight 8 engine that was used in the larger and much heavier Roadmaster and Limited.  

[pkhammer]

1 hour ago, TerryB said:

Also- very good topic to bring up on a slow day for me.  I’ve been doing my best to stay out of the Halloween candy so the local kids can get at least one or two😉.

  We live far enough off the highway we never get trick-or-treaters. The Wife did however just bring out a bag of Hershey dark chocolate miniatures that she picked up at Chocolate World during Hershey. I'll have half of them eaten by the time the XFinity race is over!  🤢

Edited October 30, 2021 by pkhammer
mispelling (see edit history)

[f.f.jones]

 

 

TerryB

It seems if you span the years 1928-1936 the cars of that era gained more cylinders and horsepower as the thirties progressed.  Staying in the low price cars area, did any still use or offer a four cylinder for economy?  The effects of the depression were still being felt so I would think fuel economy in the lower priced cars won out over speed.  By late 1930s I would guess the economy concerns were dropping off.

 

In an obvious market mis-read, Ford produced a 4 cylinder 1/2 ton pickup in 1941 (obviously the "anti-hot rod")- presumably for the economy minded. I think they used the tractor engine. Must not have been a success - one year only. At least they didn't put a horse collar grille on it.

In '41, four engines were available in the 1/2 ton pu: V8-85, V8-60, flat head 6 (90 hp), and the 4 cyl. (30) hp!

Edited October 31, 2021 by f.f.jones (see edit history)

[oldcarfudd]

A neighbors a '39 Buick Century, 4-door sedan with dual sidemounts.  A truly elegant machine that goes like hell.

[nzcarnerd]

On 10/31/2021 at 8:14 AM, pkhammer said:

   I've been a Ford guy for a long time and I find it interesting how the Model A when it was introduced was considered a pretty fast car, especially in the low price field. Probably not many cars in 1928 that could run 60+ mph. Then Ford introduces the V8 and those were the factory "hot rods" for a long time, at least among the low priced makes.

  My question is this; what other low price makes at the time (20s-30s) were considered fast cars? I suppose the OHV sixes of the time such as the Studebaker Big Six and Hudson Super Six would be in the mix. I also just read about the 1933 Essex-Terraplane Eight (one year only?) which was considered a fast car and one of the favorites of John Dillinger.

  What are some other fast/powerful cars of the era.

Of course, like all pre WW2 Studebakers, the Big Six had side valves, not overhead. It went ok due to large displacement - 354 cid. The 1928 Commander Big Six was regarded as something of a performance car in its day, but it was a 'last hurrah' for an engine that had been around since the teens and it was replaced with a new straight eight. Of course these Studebakers were three and four times the price of a Ford A, and a lot more car for your money.

 

The Hudson Super Six was also a side valve engine, except for the last three years when it gained overhead inlet valves.

 

If you are looking for an overhead valve performance car from the early 1920s the six cylinder Marmon is a contender. Not a cheap car though.

 

In the 1930s the Hudson 8 engine, still side valve, was made to go well by Railton in England. Their limited production Light Sports Tourer, essentially a Hudson chassis with a light weight touring body would exceed 100 mph.  There is a review here - THE RAILTON LIGHT SPORTS TOURER December 1935 - Motor Sport Magazine

 

The surviving car in NZ has been in the same family since soon after WW2 and currently resides at the present owner's winery just south of Christchurch.

 

 

[zepher]

I had the pleasure of riding in a Stutz Bearcat and it was a very fast car.

Probably not a cheap car new but it could get on down the road.

The meet was at a small airport so the owner was taking people for rides down one of the runways.

It was tons of fun.

[Fossil]

I would not consider my straight 8 powered DeSoto a fast car even for it's day. At 70 hp. it's OK in traffic but where it really shines is in low end grunt. Anything over 15 mph is a no shift situation. My engine is a long way from being new but it's smoke free and pulls like a mule. It's acceleration is very tame. Maybe in line with an air-cooled VW Beetle. 

 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by Fossil (see edit history)

[pkhammer]

  I got a ride in Willis Abel's Stanley Steamer a number of years ago at the Show in Ederville, NC. I was amazed at the power and acceleration!

[ron hausmann]

15 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I wonder how a Kissel Gold Bug or Marmon 8 speedster would rate ?

I own a 1923 Kissel Gold Bug Speedster, Model 6-45. These cars were rated at 65hp where later Ford sixes were rated at 40hp and Chevy’s at 50hp. I drive this car often. She is quite responsive and certainly a strong performer. I have seen contemporary pictures of these cars being raced by their owners. Only con is that Kissels were heavier cars, even with aluminum bodies. All that Oak!

Ron Hausmann P.E.

 

 

[pkhammer]

  Very cool car Ron! It appears that the ladies like it too! Or maybe it's just your magnetic personality! 😃

[alsancle]

In the low to mid price range Auburn was always considered fast.  They went back and forth with Stutz (more expensive) for the stock car championships in the 20s.   In 35/36 you could buy a SC car that would top 100mph and still be in the mid range of price.

 

If you want to talk expensive then the list gets long.

Edited October 31, 2021 by alsancle (see edit history)

[ron hausmann]

9 hours ago, Fossil said:

I would not consider my straight 8 powered DeSoto a fast car even for it's day. At 70 hp. it's OK in traffic but where it really shines is in low end grunt. Anything over 15 mph is a no shift situation. My engine is a long way from being new but it's smoke free and pulls like a mule. It's acceleration is very tame. Maybe in line with an air-cooled VW Beetle. 

 

 

 

Hey Fossil - I drove a stock 1927 Chevy Coach when I was a high school senior. Not a chick car! But it could easily beat VW Beetles off the line! But after they shifted into second gear, I ate their dust.

[58L-Y8]

Advertising low-priced cars as possessing a "powerful" four or six, implying 'high-performance' on the road was largely sales talk that didn't square with reality.   But, It was relative to what folks has experienced before with their Ford Model T, Chevy or Whippet four cylinder cars.   Of greater importance then was operating economy but no one was going to be excited about a new car purchase that promised 'adequate' performance.

[West Peterson]

17 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I wonder how a Kissel Gold Bug or Marmon 8 speedster would rate ?

 

The OP's criteria was "low priced." There are a LOT of high-priced cars that would certainly fall into the high-performance category.

[BearsFan315]

low priced is relative to whom is speaking... what is low price, what price range ?? 

 

not only Horsepower but (gear ratios) transmission & rear end !!

i own a 1929 Chevrolet and a 1930 Chevrolet. both have the same 3 speed transmission, but they have different rear end ratios !! and top end and get up and go are different 

 

Chevrolet Info from Chevrolet Specs manual:

 

3 Speed Transmission

Trans Speeds:	3 FWD 1 REV
Low Gear:	18-27   3.32:1
Second Gear:	25-20    1.77:1
High Gear:	Direct
Reverse Gear:	14,18,15   4.2:1

 

Rear End Ratios

YEAR	29	30,31,32	32 Spcl
Ring	42	41	39
Pinion	11	10	9
Ratio	3.82	4.10	4.33

Edited October 31, 2021 by BearsFan315 (see edit history)

[pkhammer]

I was excluding cars such as Duesenberg, Cadillac and Pierce-Arrow. Only the wealthy could afford that type of car and everybody knows they were built for power and speed. Discussion about the performance of ANY car though is welcomed, it's all interesting. I knew nearly nothing about White automobiles until Ed's adventure(s) started but we all have learned of the performance of that brand and it was/is highly interesting. I suspect a ride in Ed's White would be as shocking to me as a ride in a Stanley Steamer. I was expecting a lazy chug-chug-chug down the road but was taken by surprise when I was pressed back into the seat cushion as we accelerated down the highway!

[West Peterson]

18 minutes ago, pkhammer said:

I was excluding cars such as Duesenberg, Cadillac and Pierce-Arrow. Only the wealthy could afford that type of car and everybody knows they were built for power and speed. Discussion about the performance of ANY car though is welcomed, it's all interesting. I knew nearly nothing about White automobiles until Ed's adventure(s) started but we all have learned of the performance of that brand and it was/is highly interesting. I suspect a ride in Ed's White would be as shocking to me as a ride in a Stanley Steamer. I was expecting a lazy chug-chug-chug down the road but was taken by surprise when I was pressed back into the seat cushion as we accelerated down the highway!

 

Nothing beats the torque of a steamer, or an electric.

[TerryB]

As a kid, my dad and his friends used the ability to climb a certain hill “in high gear” as a measure of automotive performance which I know now was also dependent on axle gearing.  Performance and durability were also linked in the low price field.  A faster car that was prone to breakage was not so good when watching your money was involved.  
 

I wonder how Plymouth, Dodge, Pontiac and the like were viewed in the 1930s for overall performance.  My dad believed Chrysler products had the best combination of value and performance.  

[trimacar]

1 hour ago, TerryB said:

As a kid, my dad and his friends used the ability to climb a certain hill “in high gear” as a measure of automotive performance which I know now was also dependent on axle gearing.  Performance and durability were also linked in the low price field.  A faster car that was prone to breakage was not so good when watching your money was involved.  
 

I wonder how Plymouth, Dodge, Pontiac and the like were viewed in the 1930s for overall performance.  My dad believed Chrysler products had the best combination of value and performance.  

I remember reading an article about Ford having an inclined roadway to test the climbing ability of their cars.  They would take, say, an 85hp V8, test it and write down “18” or “24” to show how many seconds it took for a car to climb in high gear.

 

Reviewing the data, some saw “120” next to a 60hp tested car, and asked, what, that’s how long it took?  No, the answer came back, that’s how many feet it made it up the incline before it stalled….

[TerryB]

Mr Carter was proud of his car’s hill climbing 

 

[Max4Me]

Early 1920's Maxwell

[hidden_hunter]

4 hours ago, TerryB said:

As a kid, my dad and his friends used the ability to climb a certain hill “in high gear” as a measure of automotive performance which I know now was also dependent on axle gearing.

The papers here had a hill that was commonly referred to as a measure of performance- it was short and steep (Punt road)

[Pfeil]

1932 Pontiac V-8

[John348]

I thought we were talking low priced cars as well,

 

Those early Chevy six's can run all day at 42-45 mph, once they got near 50 those rod bearings start 'talking' they don't like it too much. You might go 50 but no for long  

[Pfeil]

Pontiac; lowest priced V-8 car in the General Motors lineup.