Auction Damage - who is responsible?

[TAKerry]

I was watching the Mecum auction last night ( I think its somewhat live from Dallas?) and a 70's era chevy pickup went through the line. The hood was literally bent in half! Truck was very nice and had what appeared to be a better quality paint job. I can only assume that when someone was trying to close the hood it bent. This is not an uncommon with firebirds, dont ask how I know. SO, if an auction employee did this are they responsible? Is the owner responsible because it didnt work like it should (my thought)? Or does it just get passed by and the new owner is responsible because he bought it that way. The truck sold for close to $30K

 

Any here send a car to auction that got damaged before it hit the block?

[Matt Harwood]

The auction company should repair it or pay for it. It was in their care when it happened.

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

The auction company should repair it or pay for it. It was in their care when it happened.

 

NOPE- Bailment for hire, happened in ordinary care and use for the bailment..........it's the car owner's risk. That's what they say "first thing, let's kill all the lawyers!" - I agree!

 

Opening and closing hood, doors, trunk, and operation of the car are all normal expected hands on inspection at any auction. Only ordinary care is required.......which means almost nothing.

Edited September 10, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Seems like a pretty inept way to present a car for sale of any kind. If it is damaged it is not ready for sale.

 

I can see that happening to me: "Bernie, we folded over the hood on your car but we are going to run it through anyway.

 

I would not have to say a word. They would whither from the look I gave them.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

Seems like a pretty inept way to present a car for sale of any kind. If it is damaged it is not ready for sale.

 

,,,

 If it were my car, I would continue with the auction and sell it for less than it would cost me to bring it home, fix it, and return back to the auction.

[CarlLaFong]

The Chevy truck hoods of that era were, thoughtfully, provided with a factory designed weak spot.. in the hoods. If you failed to lube the hinges frequently you would soon face disappointment  and frustration. I did

[rocketraider]

Part of early "crumple zone" design. A lot of us learned about hinge lubrication the hard way.

 

A lot depends how the consignment contract is worded. Lawyers will make sure the auction house's liability is minimized.

[TTR]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

NOPE- Bailment for hire, happened in ordinary care and use for the bailment..........it's the car owner's risk. That's what they say "first thing, let's kill all the lawyers!" - I agree!

 

Opening and closing hood, doors, trunk, and operation of the car are all normal expected hands on inspection at any auction. Only ordinary care is required.......which means almost nothing.

Exactly, ...

... and one of many reasons why I've always advised my clients not to submit their cars to auctions, especially if it's something rare and in relatively exceptional condition but with known potential to sell well privately. 

 

Most people, including old car enthusiast, while often enamored by the spectacle of the bling and glitter (read smoke and mirrors) at auction settings, especially in those made-for-TV-entertainment*, tend to forget or not even realize some simple facts, like that while the cars are at such public venue, just about anyone can do almost whatever they want with them (even purposely break something or steal parts off them) AND that at least 9 out of 10 cars in these auctions are there because they wouldn't pass muster and be difficult to sell privately (as potential buyers could/would insist on test drives and/or perhaps more in-depth/thorough PPI's, etc...

 

* For these, "Nielsen Ratings" are much more important than actual sales figure results, as long as it all looks good on TV. 

 

 

[edinmass]

TTR- Your comments are only 100 percent accurate.........😎

[joe_padavano]

Unfortunately that sort of hood damage is not uncommon on those trucks. The hood has slots in the under structure to comply with crumple zone requirements in a frontal crash. Couple this with hinges that haven't been lubed in a decade or so, and you get a folded hood. Ask me how I know... 😲

 

Frankly, failure to lube the hinge pivot points isn't the auction company's fault.

 

There's a reason why the aftermarket sells these braces.

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Back in the 1950's some stations would do just about anything to distract the Studebaker Hawk owners after checking the oil.

 

[Digger914]

2 hours ago, rocketraider said:

Part of early "crumple zone" design. A lot of us learned about hinge lubrication the hard way.

 

A lot depends how the consignment contract is worded. Lawyers will make sure the auction house's liability is minimized.

 

Bailment, Bailment and Bailment are all defined in the UCC and it should be as simple as that; But, States tend to adopt as is, or modify the code and commitments under the code are contained in  contracts written on sections of the code and liabilities are again interpreted by case law. 

 

It's my expectation that a high end auto auction would provide considerably more consignment protection than the average used car auction houses and law or not, I agree with Matt.

6 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

The auction company should repair it or pay for it. It was in their care when it happened.

 

 

[TAKerry]

They typically open the hoods on the block then close them. When this truck rolled through the hood was an inverted V. There was a crowd of people around it, looked like a lot of 'official auction personnel'. When it hit the block the camera man did a pretty good job of trying not to show it too much. Lots of low pan shots of the front end. It was really bad and hard to miss though. The announcers didnt say a word. I can only imagine what they were thinking.

 

I tend to think its 1. the owners responsibility, knowing full well that the hood will be opened at some time. IF there was an inherent problem leave a note in a prominent place to NOT OPEN HOOD.  With that said  2. As soon as someone started bidding it becomes their problem. 'Hey you saw what it looked like when it crossed the block and you bid anyway!'

[Matt Harwood]

I've had two cases where cars were damaged at an auction, once as a seller and once as a buyer. In each case, the auction house either fixed it (when I was a seller) or paid me to fix it (when I was a buyer). I will say that the auction house where I was selling pulled the car from the auction and sent it to be fixed, then ran it in a later auction. I was OK with that. The car I bought had a rather big dent in the quarter panel from another car at the auction backing into it after it crossed the block, and they simply gave me a check once I produced a quote to fix it. A bit of a hassle, but I was OK with it since I wanted to do other work on the car anyway.

 

I will note that with two different auction houses, there was never any talk of, "Hey, you bought it, it's your problem," or "Mr. Harwood, can we please have your insurance information, someone at our auction damaged your car and we're making it your problem to solve if you want us to sell the car."

[edinmass]

How do you get treated by an auction company, has more to do with your net worth or your ability to buy and sell cars at the sale. In most cases,  they’re going to tell you to stick it. Matt is a high profile dealer, so he will get special treatment.

 

 

Who’s handling your car at an auction? Volunteers......... they use local car club guys who volunteer their time. Ask me about the time one of the high-end auction companies used a crowbar to pry open the trunk on a $4 million car looking for a battery that was under the seat. You can’t believe what goes on behind the scenes. Cars falling off trucks,  car is being jumpstarted backwards, fires, The list is endless. I have never, and never will sell a car through an auction house. Use somebody like Matt, Hyman, Miller, and others....... or a private broker.

Edited September 11, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

14 minutes ago, edinmass said:

You can’t believe what goes on behind the scenes. Cars falling off trucks,  car is being jumpstarted backwards, fires, The list is endless.

That's like describing a circus.

[TTR]

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

That's like describing a circus.

... or made-for-TV-classic-car-auction ? 

 

Full disclosure: I haven't watched TV for +/- 30 years, let alone anything described as "Reality (???) TV" which I suspect these auction shows are part of.

Life's too short with plenty of vintage cars to pre-occupy my limited time.

 

[Trulyvintage]

11 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

NOPE- Bailment for hire, happened in ordinary care and use for the bailment..........it's the car owner's risk. That's what they say "first thing, let's kill all the lawyers!" - I agree!

 

Opening and closing hood, doors, trunk, and operation of the car are all normal expected hands on inspection at any auction. Only ordinary care is required.......which means almost nothing.

Same applies for auto transport.

Read the fine print.

 

” Normal & customary “ covers a wide

range of damage that can occur.

 

 

Jim

[ted sweet]

thats caused by lack of maintenance, no way auction is responsible

[Studemax]

36 minutes ago, ted sweet said:

thats caused by lack of maintenance, no way auction is responsible

Until it happens to YOURS.

[ted sweet]

so the blame for  a 50 year old part fails is the person touching it?

[mike6024]

 

 

Lot # T94

 

The seller will cover $1500 for hood replacement plus painting. It was bent in the staging area.

 

 

[60FlatTop]

Probably cost as much to fix the hood as it would cost to replace the goofy wheels.

 

I guess my first move would be buy the wheels, tires, and a spool of clothesline.

[SC38dls]

It can be pounded out and polished! No worries. 

[TTR]

On 9/10/2021 at 6:37 PM, Trulyvintage said:

Same applies for auto transport.

… and many other things in life, so choose/pay accordingly.

 

While I used to have my own enclosed trailer to transport some of my own jobs, I decided to sell it and now have couple of “trusted” transporters I’ve been using for few years, yet still have couple of clients who prefer(?) to pay extra so that I’m present during loading or unloading of their vehicles, whether I ride along with  the transporter or meet them at whatever destination. 
And if these transporters aren’t available, we’ll just wait until they are…

 

Yet, another client with 30+ car “collection” (and yes, I choose to use “that” word very carefully) about 100 miles away from my shop, but doesn’t want his cars transporter in any enclosed carriers, because years ago he had an unfortunate experience involving a newly acquired (super nice, unrestored, 2-owner pre-war) car and he became a bit neurotic about the process.

OTOH, having full time, in-house staff attending his cars and the fact that cars from the collection aren't usually displayed in any public events/shows, it’s not often they need transportation.

On those rare occasions, like when something is brought to my shop, etc. they prefer a local to them guy with a flatbed truck.

Last time a car (all which are always maintained “not-even-a-single-fingerprint” spotless) was brought to me, it got drenched in heavy downpour, immediately requiring 1-2 dozen hours of deep cleaning and detailing at my end to eliminate/prevent water spots, etc before I could even start working on the actual issues the car was brought in for.

Edited September 12, 2021 by TTR (see edit history)

[TTR]

9 hours ago, mike6024 said:

 

 

Lot # T94

 

The seller will cover $1500 for hood replacement plus painting. It was bent in the staging area.

 

 

Well, these images do appear more like taken at a three ring circus rather than used car sales event, although not much.

Edited September 12, 2021 by TTR (see edit history)

[mike6024]

If you watch the video it's very funny. Auctioneer says "it's all under the hood that you'll be looking at" meaning the value is in the high performance engine. But they don't actually lift the hood while it is on the auction block.

 

They this guy does "look under the hood" but without raising it.

 

 

[edinmass]

I take one look at the wheels, and .........🤮

[Walt G]

PIN wheels that kids used to have on a stick looked like that . Looks like a nice truck ( colors are great) except for the wheels and the bonked hood.

[Frank DuVal]

All bolt on replaceable parts. Now, the engine modifications, maybe not so much.😉

 

Thanks for posting the video, Mike!

Edited September 13, 2021 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[Bryan G]

I seem to recall a case like this on the old People's Court with Judge Wapner (though it could have been one of the later imitators.) Someone took their malaise-era GM car to a mechanic and when they went to close the hood it bent. The plaintiff made the argument that the defendant should have known they would have to fiddle around with the hood to get it to close properly; the judge disagreed. Somehow it doesn't surprise me this happened on this particular truck. I envision someone checking off an awful lot of boxes on an LMC Truck order form (but, alas, not those hood braces!)

[mike6024]

Is it just oiling the hinges that needs to be done?

 

I got to drive some new Chevy trucks at work in the late 1970's and there never seemed to be any issue closing the hood. I imagine it's old rusty hinges.

[ramair]

When I got out of high school I took care of a small fleet of GMC pickups 73 through 79.  We had a couple of them that bent, they were fairly new at the time and a Gm body man told me it is not lack of lubrication, because at the time they had not rusted yet and still had the white paste lube.  He said it was a design flaw and he showed me how to close it to prevent any more from bending.  You have to push the hood towards the windshield in a quick motion then put a little bit of weight on it to pull it down. 45 years latter I still do that with everything I own.  

[mrspeedyt]

I lately sold a 73 suburban with that same hood design. it had over 400,000 hard miles on it and not one perfectly straight piece of body metal except for the hood. The original owner (which was the state of Arizona) must’ve kept it lubed pretty good and I continued doing the same thing when I bought it in 1988. I was aware of the design flaw early on. as well as the new buyer. 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by mrspeedyt (see edit history)

[mike6024]

The '73 is much better than the newer ones with the sloping front fenders.

[TAKerry]

The hood on my 77 t/a was bent the same way, just not quite as bad. The F bodies are notorious for that as well. Springs are really stiff, even though they are properly greased. A trick is to wiggle just a wee bit from side to side before pulling it closed. I can see a heavy hand bending one of these quite easily. May not be the best design.  On my car I separated the seam between the inner hood and the outer and welded in a reinforcing piece of flat stock. I got the hood straight, not sure if the brace does any good but I close it gingerly.