The phone rang... and then the next car adventure starts

[edinmass]

Here is a photo of a main bearing off of a 16 Valve White. Don't have any other photos that I can post right now.........but thought this was interesting.

[1912Staver]

I believe some of the White truck engines of the same period used them as well. Looks expensive. Still available ?

The front bearing on the generators on the ship I used to work on had a huge double row ball bearing. Oil bath plain bearing at the other end. 

You could barely lift the bearing, about 90 lbs. A spare set came with the ship from new { 1992 } , they are still waiting on a shelf wrapped in 

anti - corrosion packaging. I had to move them during a spares inventory move. 

 

Greg

[trimacar]

One interesting thing about the White that hasn’t been mentioned....

 

The mascot for the car, and the factory magazine about White cars, was called....The Albatross....think about THAT for a minute!

[edinmass]

13 minutes ago, trimacar said:

One interesting thing about the White that hasn’t been mentioned....

 

The mascot for the car, and the factory magazine about White cars, was called....The Albatross....think about THAT for a minute!

 

Gee........thanks for the vote of confidence David...............Coleridge is not one of my favorite poet's.

 

 

[nickelroadster]

How many of those main bearings did it use per engine?  I am also curious about how durable they were.  I know that there were several high dollar cars at the beginning of the twentieth century that use either ball or roller bearings.

[edinmass]

11 minutes ago, nickelroadster said:

How many of those main bearings did it use per engine?  I am also curious about how durable they were.  I know that there were several high dollar cars at the beginning of the twentieth century that use either ball or roller bearings.

I’m waiting for more photos of the engine apart. My guess is three bearings. In general they have always had a good reputation, and seemed to last a long time. On motorcycles, the crank is multiple pieces and they  have to be pressed together. My guess is the cars would be the same way. 

Edited August 7, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

One time, I saw an engine apart that had ball bearings on the crankshaft. Very interesting. I cannot remember for certain what car it was, and I could be mistaken. But I seem to recall it was either a 1913 National (don't think it was?), or the 1915 Marmon (I think it was that one?). I could probably find some specifications and confirm it one way or another, however, my internet searching skills are somewhat limited. Whatever it was, it has been beautifully restored for years now.

[Grimy]

On 8/3/2020 at 2:49 AM, wayne sheldon said:

First, I should admit that I personally am not entirely in favor of this? However, the HCCA does have a "Nickel Era Touring Registry" as an extension of the HCCA. The Nickel Age Touring Club that I was a part of for quite a number of years changed "umbrella" club to the HCCA a few years ago, so HCCA membership is now required to be a NATC (our old name) active member (should not be a problem for you, and isn't for me). Grimy (George, you know him) on this forum is one of the club's chief officers. The "Nickel Era Touring Registry" is trying to get more people interested in the nickel era cars, and hold tours in different parts of the country. Our subgroup tries to hold three good tours and one evening dinner meeting per year. Of course, this year was basically washed out. The National Registry tries to hold a major tour somewhere every year. There was also a nickel era group in the mid-West a few years ago. I think I read a tour report from them maybe two years ago. VMCCA holds a Nickel Tour almost every year (I went on one of those fifteen years ago). So there is some growing activity for the nickel cars!

Sorry, I've been away a couple of days but now caught up on this most interesting thread.

 

I'm the permanent secretary (nobody else will do it!) of the founded-in-1986 Nickel Age Touring Club primarily in SF Bay Area but with members in SoCal in northern NV.  As Wayne related, we switched over to HCCA two years ago and have a less interesting name South Bay Vintage Touring Club but are a full RG of HCCA; we have two 3-4 day tours per year (other than COVID, of course).  I'm also a member of John M's Nickel Era Touring Registry (NETR) based in SoCal but with members all over the country.  NETR has one 5-day tour per year and accepts cars through 1932.

 

Ed, your friend Tony to whom you sold the 1932 P-A 54 coupe has a 1915 White 4-45 touring that's most interesting.  He's trying to figure out an alternative (modern) starter, because the original starter, an elevator-motor-on-a-swinging-beam, has perished.

[Restorer32]

As late as 1928 Autocar trucks had roller bearing crankshafts.  Two bearings only.  I assume that they must have been reasonably reliable.  Only drawback we noticed was they were very noisy.

[trimacar]

Charmers had ball bearing mains.  I drove a friend’s CMC one time, maybe it was just his car, but I remember them being noisy.

 

Sorry, Ed, I’m sure it’s a great car, but in retrospect that’s a funny mascot for a car.  Guess all the others were taken....cormorant (although some say it’s a pelican), stork, eagle, quail, swan, others?

[SC38dls]

Buzzard? 

[Lahti35]

15 hours ago, edinmass said:

Here is a photo of a main bearing off of a 16 Valve White. Don't have any other photos that I can post right now.........but thought this was interesting.

My Farmall F20 has the same setup, as did my 1961 Saab with a two stroke engine. I think its interesting also, I wonder how it compares to poured bearings for longevity. My F20 still runs great on the original engine at 83 years old. 

[padgett]

Early Honda Dreams (150, 305) also use roller bearings. Didn't replace bearings, you replaced the crank ( with dual carbs a 150 Dream was good for about 14k rpm).

[1912Staver]

On 8/6/2020 at 4:14 AM, J.H.Boland said:

 

Hi Greg.It's a New Haven eight day clock.

Jim

 

Thanks Jim.  I have also heard McLaughlin used Van Sicklen dash clocks. Possibly they were both used ? Yours looks about right . McLaughlin's used thicker wooden dashes than the simple steel pressings used in U.S. Buicks.  So at the very least the mounting 

bracket is different to allow for the thicker dash material. 

 

Greg

[JACK M]

The Evinrude outboards use needle bearings both main and rod.

At least the old two strokes that I worked on in my other life.

Every boat owner slams full throttle for knots on end.

Interesting that the rod caps are actually  broken away from the rod AFTER they are machined. The needle bearings run directly on the inside of that fracture.

[Dandy Dave]

On 8/2/2020 at 4:14 PM, edinmass said:

 

Im curious as to it’s total performance.......with the four speed,  Is one a hill climber/stump puller? It says 3rd is direct.........I have never seen an over drive this early.......any ideas?

Yes. White made overdrive transmissions for vehicles with Balloon Tires. Very Cool. Should run circles around my White Truck. Dandy Dave! 

 

[edinmass]

It’s also why when you can’t find a Duesenberg Model J transmission, the go to replacement is a White truck unit. You still see them in cars today............there are many more cars than original transmissions.

[Dandy Dave]

9 hours ago, Lahti35 said:

My Farmall F20 has the same setup, as did my 1961 Saab with a two stroke engine. I think its interesting also, I wonder how it compares to poured bearings for longevity. My F20 still runs great on the original engine at 83 years old. 

Yes. The whole IHC line of tractors used ball bearings on both ends of the crank for many years. Started in the early twenty's and ended in the 40's with the last 10-20 built. They are proven in the field and even today it is rare when you have to replace them in one of these tractors after 80 to 100 years later. Dandy Dave!  

[wayne sheldon]

There are a few ways to consider the albatross. One, as a symbol of bad luck. The etymology of that is interesting. A thousand years ago, sailors venturing far from the coast would see the birds soaring for hours without flapping a wing, and believe them to be supernatural beings. Killing one of the birds was thought to bring evil onto the ship as it would have been killing some sort of special god-like or fairy being. The belief was later immortalized in a poem about the "ancient mariner", wherein an albatross was killed, and the dead bird hung around the offending sailor's neck as punishment in the hopes the other such beings would spare the ship. Hence the phrase today of "having an albatross around one's neck" 

 

Another way of considering the albatross, is that of the longest distance runner. An albatross can fly for a month at a time. Sleeps (short naps) while it soars well above the waters below. Only diving to quickly touch the surface of the ocean to catch a quick meal. They just go, and go, and go, and go.

I would say that is the image White wanted to conjure up by using the albatross as a symbol. The image on the radiator is that of a beautiful soaring bird, not a carcass around one's neck.

[trimacar]

Excellent description of the albatross!  Better than an elephant, a slow, plodding animal....

[JV Puleo]

22 hours ago, edinmass said:

I’m waiting for more photos of the engine apart. My guess is three bearings. In general they have always had a good reputation, and seemed to last a long time. On motorcycles, the crank is multiple pieces and they  have to be pressed together. My guess is the cars would be the same way. 

 

There were 3 common ways of doing it. The simplest was just to have two bearings. That is what Chalmers did.  Next, ball bearings were used on the ends and a plain bearing in the middle. The elegant solution was a ball bearing in the center. I have seen a diagram of how it was done that I'll see if I can find and post. Something tells me the center journal was larger than the others...but it's best to look and not guess.

 

I wonder if the bearings were American? A little earlier (c.1910-12) they were usually European and in metric sizes. That is why the Chalmers has metric bearings...they weren't made that big in the US at the time.

[JV Puleo]

This from PM Heldt's manual of engine design...

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Many years ago I bought a wrecked REO engine from "Mr. Joslyn" of the Joslyn Farm in Exeter, RI. This was in the 70s. I was in my late 20s at the time while Mr. Joslyn was 97. He gave us (myself and the friend who was helping me) a short tour of his private junk yard made up of just about every vehicle he'd ever used on the farm. The rest of the REO was there too...the "hired man blew the engine back in '25" I was told. He was also carrying a 12 gauge shotgun under his arm because, as he said, "people been stealing from me. I catch 'em, I'll put lead to 'em. I'm 97 years old, there ain't much they can do to me now."

 

Among the various vehicles was a brass radiator gas White. At the time, I dismissed it as "just a truck" but now I wonder if it might have been a big touring car turned into a farm truck. It's a bit late now to go back and ask...I don't even know if the farm is still there. Had I know then what I know now I should have bought it. He was perfectly willing to sell things..,he charged me $10 for the engine.

Edited August 8, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[nickelroadster]

Thanks  JV for your information.  I have always had a curiosity about ball and roller bearing engines.  I once asked a former president of the Timpkin company but he had no information even though he was quite a car guy.

[John_Mereness]

On 8/7/2020 at 8:43 AM, Lahti35 said:

 as did my 1961 Saab with a two stroke engine. 

I thought the Saab used needles bearing too or instead of roller - neighbors had a SAAB's couple and I recall him making the comment that at a certain point of mileage/wear you had to rebuild as if you let the wear exist you stood the chance of the bearings pilling up on themselves and damaging the "case" which was also the "race"  ?

[Rusty_OToole]

Stutz used a 4 cylinder ball bearing engine made by Wisconsin. The crankshaft was split in the middle so a standard ball bearing could be installed then bolted together with a single large nut. It was a 3 main bearing engine.  I think the mating parts of the shaft were tapered for a tight wedge fit like a Harley crankshaft.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Ed, despite other discussions disappearing and our different outlook on the status of life, I will still enjoy this thread and your adventure. 
dave s 

[edinmass]

Dave, when the mess is over, come south, and we will take a cool car of your choice for a spin. Car people are always welcome guests, and if we can’t share our hobby, why do we bother. Good cars and great people.....all you need in life besides family and work.

 

Too bad friends having a respectful conversation was pulled down........but it’s beyond the scope of the site. So be it. We can talk politics while having lunch at Mar-A-Lago...........if our politics agree I will buy, if we disagree you can pick up the check! LOL. Lots of fun.

Edited August 8, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Let’s take the White out for a spin, you drive, I’ll ride and enjoy!  Did I mention I’ll be down Monday!  Will it be on the road?  
im on Aiken SC so an easy ride on the 38 Studebaker. 
dave s 

 

on your trip north and back if you need anything, help, tools, food, drink, bed— when near here, please don’t hesitate to call. 
 

[edinmass]

Sending a PM. 👍

[edinmass]

SpecialNote:

 

Dave very generously offered me help on my trip up north..........that’s why I enjoy the car hobby so much. Meeting people on line, with common interests, and now having a new friend in a small town in the heartland of America. If a I have time, I will make the two hour detour to see him......it’s not likely, but if possible, I will. I offered Dave a chance to come down and visit, and go for a ride.......it was a sincere offer. Also, I actually found a White carburetor cover that is correct for the car. The gentleman doesn’t want money, he just wants it on a car where it belongs.......how cool is that! Spent most of the day Friday and Saturday getting the truck and trailer ready. Still more to do before I leave on Wednesday afternoon. I’m now in top gear trying to learn about White Automobiles............addition fun. 👍

[padgett]

In a different time I would have offered also, even can drive a rig. But feel like I took a chance just going to PSL to pick up the Allante (PB to Jax is 30 miles further via Orlando but would not want my worst enemy on I-4).

 

ps Last time I was at Marjorie Post's place I got hooked on caviar..

Edited August 8, 2020 by padgett (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

The enjoyment I get out of the car hobby is not only seeing unique old cars and hearing the stories of finding and restoring  them but getting to know the characters that do it.  No matter how many differences of opinion we may have in many different topics the old car hobby is a bond these differences cannot break. Anytime I am fortunate enough to be able to help a fellow old car enthusiast when they are having a problem it’s a bonus for me, so in a way that is a selfish offer with good intent. To get to know someone like Ed and see his collection would be an experience I will do my best to make happen. I believe his generous offer is just an extension of how much he has given all of us on this forum with his sharing of his knowledge and advice. 
dave s 

[cahartley]

International Harvester built 215,551 McCormick Deering 10-20 tractors in which the engines all had ball bearing crankshafts, one bearing at each end.

I have never heard of anyone having to replace the crankshaft bearings but just because I haven't heard doesn't mean they haven't been but it's definitely a very rare thing.

 

[edinmass]

Roller bearing crankshafts are not common for one good reason, they were more complicated to fabricate crankshafts, and more expensive overall to build. They have less friction drag than conventional crankshafts. It’s always about money..........on virtually every question you ever ask. I think it’s a neat set up, along with the dual valves, oil bath clutch, and overdrive transmission........all extra bonuses of just wanting to own a cool T Head car. 

[SC38dls]

Any idea when you are heading north yet?  Maybe this should be called the “Great White” trek to the north adventure. 
We are looking forward to more pics and want it to get going soon!  
( Also we need distractions from other threads that are going no where except into oblivion! )

dave s 

[George Cole]

Ed, I'm about 2.5 hrs north of you.  Twenty minutes from I-95, Exit 205.  If you run into problems anywhere in central FL, give me a call.  I'll be glad to help with whatever.  321-848-1770.  I'm retired, so home pretty much all the time.

 

[edinmass]

9 hours ago, SC38DLS said:

Any idea when you are heading north yet?  Maybe this should be called the “Great White” trek to the north adventure. 
We are looking forward to more pics and want it to get going soon!  
( Also we need distractions from other threads that are going no where except into oblivion! )

dave s 

Since a I am now driving solo, It looks like Wednesday afternoon. It’s 11 1/2 hours one way without stops for fuel. The rig is 58 feet so I prefer not doing 14-16 hour days anymore. I expect to be loading the car early Friday morning. I’ll shoot some photos and video. I asked them to leave the car in the corner where it’s been for the last twenty years. I’ll just pull the wood blocks and winch it in the truck. Then it’s off to the other garage to look at some very unusual cars for sale. I will get photos there also. Probably won’t load many of them till I get to a hotel at night. While I plan on splitting the drive up, I think I will make a straight shot home. Time, weather, traffic, and chance will dictate the timeline. 

Edited August 9, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

17 minutes ago, George Cole said:

Ed, I'm about 2.5 hrs north of you.  Twenty minutes from I-95, Exit 205.  If you run into problems anywhere in central FL, give me a call.  I'll be glad to help with whatever.  321-848-1770.  I'm retired, so home pretty much all the time.

 

Thanks George.........help from people in the hobby is always appreciated. Spent two days going over the truck and trailer, in an effort to make things go as smooth as possible.

[SC38dls]

Hope all goes well, stay safe. looking forward to pics. 
dave s