The Car Which Shall Not Be Named III (1935 Lincoln K)

[alsancle]

I think you can only compare to another V12 Lincoln of the same vintage.  We need someone with real experience driving one to chime in.   Our 180 Packard runs warm but has never overheated.  Our Jag and our Cord do also, but I'm convinced in both cases the temp gauge is wrong.     My Stearns ran cool as a cucumber when it was 95 in West Palm and when I took it out in 80 degree weather last week it was running warm and Ed yelled at me.  Cars are a mystery.

 

I say keep driving it.   I know this is somewhere in the last couple of pages,  but you are running straight water?

[trimacar]

Well, two suggestions, you’re welcome to ignore both.

 

Quit worrying about oil pressure, 25, 30, 35…..all good, ANY pressure is good, only worry if it goes  to zero.  Won’ tell the back story, but I once drove a big straight eight with 5 to 10 psi, no damage, turned out mechanic hadn’t tightened oil pump bolts.

 

Also, a car running a little hot and puking water if I let off gas at speed.  Took a freeze plug the size of return radiator hose, drilled 5/8 inch hole in it and placed in hose. Problems solved.

[Matt Harwood]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

I say keep driving it.   I know this is somewhere in the last couple of pages,  but you are running straight water?

Yep, straight water. As long as it keeps leaking, I'm not going to waste anything else.

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, trimacar said:

Quit worrying about oil pressure, 25, 30, 35…..all good, ANY pressure is good, only worry if it goes  to zero.  Won’ tell the back story, but I once drove a big straight eight with 5 to 10 psi, no damage, turned out mechanic hadn’t tightened oil pump bolts.

I think that's my plan. I still need to take it back to Frank at the machine shop, but I think I have plenty of volume even if there's not a huge amount of pressure.

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, trimacar said:

Also, a car running a little hot and puking water if I let off gas at speed.  Took a freeze plug the size of return radiator hose, drilled 5/8 inch hole in it and placed in hose. Problems solved.

Already done. I took your advice here years ago when I first got the car and have been running restrictors ever since. They're in there now! Are they doing anything? I can't tell. But they're certainly not hurting.

[Bloo]

21 minutes ago, trimacar said:

Took a freeze plug the size of return radiator hose, drilled 5/8 inch hole in it and placed in hose. Problems solved.

Return? Do you mean the hot hose (usually upper) or the cold hose?

 

[1957Birdman]

Matt,

Does the Lincoln owner's handbook cover break-in? If so, what is the break-in period for the car and restrictions on driving the car during the break-in time? 

Lew Bachman

1957 Thunderbird 

[EmTee]

I would wait and see what Frank says.  If he and @AB-Buff aren't concerned, then I would relax and continue driving.

 

Oh, I was encouraged that you had no additional comment after noting your 6.66 mpg fuel economy. 

[Stude Light]

Let me just say from a physics standpoint…..more water flow through the engine and across the radiator means more heat rejection. Reduced flow rate means less heat rejection. 
 

Unless a restrictor is preventing some type of pump cavitation or extreme turbulence it will reduce heat rejection. Think of it in terms of reducing the airflow through your radiator…reduces the amount of heat rejection.
 

Restrictors are great when it’s cold and you want the engine to heat up to normal operating temperature. That’s why thermostats came about. When it’s 90 out and I’m running my engine hard I am wanting my thermostat wide open, not restricted.

[charlespetty]

Ditch the restrictors.  Not needed.  

[edinmass]

Im fairly certain you running warm condition is related to one thing, and one thing only. Not enough flow rate through the new core. With a properly rebuilt engine, accessories, and a newly rebuilt radiator it is the only reasonable solution to your problem. Having experienced a similar issue with a 100 point car and it was doing the exact same thing I took it to a friends garage where we drove and discussed the issue. I was thoroughly disgusted and finally said pull the radiator……..and flow test it out of desperation. The result? A unit that was supposed to flow 45-49:gallons per minute was flowing 25. We replaced the core with a different brand and presto, problem solved after spending 50 hours and ten thousand what if’s. The manufacturer of the core finally admitted to a production change……….fact is today you can expect absolutely NOTHING to fit, function, or perform as it should. We now test everything we install,or replace on the bench………..radiators, fuel pumps(electric and mechanical), coils, just assume everything is junk. Which it is. We now live in a world of excuses, poor workmanship, lack of effort in job performance, ect. 
 

The rate of heat exchange can only be explained by lack of water flow…….it’s simple physics. If everything else checks out…….timing, clean block, clean core, good pump, no air in system……….and, by the way it should not be pushing ANY water out the overflow line……….after a few heat cycles it should maintain its own static level and NEVER leak. 

[EmTee]

34 minutes ago, edinmass said:

...it should not be pushing ANY water out the overflow line...

Unless you're sure that this is the case, I would temporarily connect a hose to the overflow tube and connect it to a bottle secured nearby.  Fill the radiator to the specified level (typically about 1/2" above the top of the core).  Drive the car at highway speed (greater than 40 mph) for at least five miles and check for water in the bottle when you return.  Any water in the bottle would indicate a restriction in the core.

[edinmass]

Restriction and lack of flow are two different issues. It’s possible not to be pushing any water out, but not exchanging enough heat. Like any heating or cooling system in a home you need excess capacity so you don’t run near the limit of the system.

[alsancle]

What Ed said.  I have seen brand new very expensive radiators that did not flow test correctly after the guy pulled his hair out for 6 months figuring out why his car was running hot.

[trimacar]

10 hours ago, Bloo said:

Return? Do you mean the hot hose (usually upper) or the cold hose?

 

Upper return hose, inlet to top of radiator.  I realize some people disagree with this, but in my case it solved a problem with no affect on cooling of engine.

Edited July 1, 2023 by trimacar (see edit history)

[EmTee]

Much of what I hear Matt saying makes me think 'airflow'...  My '38 Century behaves similarly in that it typically runs 180~185° F while underway.  Stop-and-go situations on a hot day (>80° F) will cause the temp to increase.  Once moving again, the temp recovers quickly as the airflow is restored.  The fan on my car doesn't pull a lot of air at idle, so I try to avoid shutting the engine down before the temperature has had a chance to recover following a 'stressing' situation (i.e., high speed followed by prolonged idling or stop-and-go).

[Matt Harwood]

Thanks for the feedback, guys, it is always appreciated.

 

I once again spent the night thinking about this problem and I'm pretty convinced that @EmTee has the right idea--it's air flow, not the radiator itself. You will recall that the thing ran ice cold--too cold--before I installed the front sheetmetal. I was seriously concerned that I would have to find a way to get it to run warmer, not cooler. Granted, the weather was a little cooler back then, but I made the 20 mile drive from the upholstery shop on an 80-degree day and the thing ran at 140-150 without a grille or hood. That leads me to believe that the radiator is doing its job. If it was a radiator/water flow problem, all the airflow in the world wouldn't change things very much.

 

No, I believe there's just not enough air moving through the core. I have a few ideas to solve that, starting with replacing the pan under the nose, which is missing on my car. I'm going to fabricate something until I can find a proper factory unit. My thought is that a lot of air is getting misdirected under the radiator instead of through it without that pan. The factory didn't install it just to make the bottom of the car pretty, it was there for a reason. So I'll make something that will move more air through the radiator core.

 

There should be a pan under the nose of the

car. Perhaps that helps direct air into

the radiator...

 

Second, I'm "missing" a gallon of coolant. The book says it holds 32 quarts (8 gallons). But without exception, every time I fill it, it takes EXACTLY 7 gallons. Not 7.5 not 7 and a little, but the moment that seventh gallon is empty, the water level is at the top of the filler neck. 7 gallons. Where did that extra gallon go? No idea. But that's about 15% more coolant that's not accounted for. I know it's not still sitting in the block because the drain is the very lowest point on the entire cooling system and I have been jacking up the front of the car to get at the hose. I know it's empty. That's really weird.

 

Third, it isn't pushing water out of the overflow. The only reason it was pushing water out of the overflow yesterday was because I had just filled it. The way the filler neck is designed, there's no way to see the core so I don't know when it's full. I inevitably over-fill it every time. So I'm not concerned about the overflow. It's just finding the proper level after being over-filled. No worries there.

 

With the filler neck positioned the way it is,

there's no way to know when it's full.

 

Fourth, don't know about the restrictors. I will do some objective testing before I decide either way. I do know that when I first got the car and it was running hot, I installed the restrictors at @trimacar's suggestion and it ran notably cooler with no other changes. Is that still the case with all-new parts? I don't know. More testing is required.

 

So this weekend I will make a pan for under the nose, try once again to stop the coolant hose leak, and if I'm lucky, replace the muffler. Oh, and I have to readjust the left front wheel bearing--it's making noise now after I stupidly tightened it last week. When will I learn to leave well enough alone?

 

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[TexRiv_63]

When car makers switched from gauges to "idiot lights" for monitoring temperature, oil pressure and charging many complained but most drivers did not. Those drivers probably did not pay attention to the previous gauges anyway and the reality was that most cars survived temporary running hot or charging low. Even the factory gauges glossed over this using lines rather than actual numbers on the faces, as long as you stayed in the safe midrange you were ok. In reality the top end of that safe range was probably 200 to 210 degrees but if it didn't boil over and dropped once you passed the traffic jam no problem.

 

I've had more than one car with aftermarket gauges where I worried about the numbers but never actually had a boil over or zero oil pressure issue. Considering your lengthy history with this car you are naturally hypersensitive to potential problems but your recent drive experiences seem to show normal break-in conditions and a nice driving car. Keep taking it slow and expand your range, and maybe close the glovebox for awhile.

[Matt Harwood]

Spent most of the day fabricating a pan to go under the grille and force more air through the radiator--that's the theory, anyway. It wasn't terribly complicated and the way things are arranged under there, it was pretty obvious how to seal the grille area. So I made a cardboard template, duplicated it on a sheet of 16-gauge steel, then cut and bent it into shape. Just about the only tool I don't have is a sheet metal brake, so I used my vise to make the bends--they're not as crisp as I'd like, but it'll do. I drilled two holes through the duct and into the frame crossmember, then tapped them for 1/4-28 threads. To keep the leading edge from vibrating, I also fabricated a bracket that will be secured using one of the bolts that holds the two fenders together at the very leading edge. Welded it in place, then painted the whole thing satin black. I'll install it tomorrow once the paint has cured. I'll use some kind of gasket to seal the duct to the inner edges of the fenders to prevent the air from escaping and hopefully more will go through the radiator.

 

  

Made a cardboard template to get an idea

of how things would fit. It actually seals

pretty well and I'll add some kind of gasket

to seal it up even more.

 

Transferred my cardboard template to

some 16-gauge steel, dressed the edges,

and bent it into shape.

 

Drilled two holes to mount it to the

frame cross member. I tapped

the holes for 1/4-28 bolts.

 

To hold the leading edge, I made a bracket

that can be secured to the fenders where

they bolt together.

 

Welded the bracket to the duct and

painted the whole thing satin black.

 

While I had it in the air, I also pulled out my replacement muffler and did some measurements. I think I'm going to chicken out and not replace the muffler. As much as I hate how it sounds, I don't know if there's enough room for the muffler I bought. I also see a lot of cobbled-up welds holding the old system together, and the tubing is 2.25 inches instead of the 2.75 that it should be. Add in the offsets of the pipes on the new muffler which may make my tailpipe not fit properly and it may need a lot of adjusting. I'm going to err on the side of caution and just leave it alone for now. Next winter I'll have Tim Shaffer make me a beautiful new stainless system that's the right size (2.75 inches to the muffler, 2.5 inches from the muffler back). I think we'll just leave it alone for now. I'm not going to chase perfection this time.

 

 

There's so much dicey work in that old exhaust

system that it will be difficult to replace just

the muffler. I think I'll leave it alone. You can see

that goofy cherry bomb muffler that's on there now.

 

I also put a second hose clamp on the leaky hose. Still seeping, but it slowed down quite a bit. Until I get a new hose union, I'm going to leave it alone. I'll install the new reinforced hose union using some gasket shellac and hopefully that'll be the end of it. I want to take it to a show on July 4, so I don't want to take it apart without having the right parts to put it back together.

 

Tomorrow I'll install my duct and--weather permitting--take it for another extended drive. I'm going to do a set route so I can compare apples-to-apples whether the restrictors are helping or hurting. One step at a time, methodical, is the only way this problem gets solved.

[39BuickEight]

My 1939 Buick has a pan there to keep air coming through the grille from escaping through the bottom of the car. It “forces” the air to actually go up and through the radiator.  Many times people leave the panel off, as many old parts and running cars alike do not have it.  I think many feel it hurts cooling by trapping air, but in fact it helps cooling by directing air.

Edited July 2, 2023 by 39BuickEight (see edit history)

[Walt G]

Matt your on going comments have to encourage all of those working on pre war cars that problems do happen on machines that are 80 + years old BUT can be solved with a lot of patience and creative thinking. Thanks for taking the time do share this with all of us.

[Bloo]

Good plan. It is very important that any air that comes through the grille has to go through the radiator to escape. I know some factory setups pay no attention to this, but they may also be way over-engineered for cooling. It is a little worse than just some of the air not having to go through the radiator. The detail that often gets lost is that if air can get around the radiator, it equalizes the pressure front to rear, and there is no longer much incentive for air to move through the radiator.

[EmTee]

I'm cautiously optimistic that the grille pan will help.  I agree that it has been too easy for air to 'pile up' in front of the radiator and take the path of least resistance down and out under the car.  Even with the pan in place, you may find that you need to provide additional venting in the engine compartment.  If the air being directed through the radiator can't escape from the engine compartment fast enough it will still not want to go through the core.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Matt you know engine pans on Ford products are functional and help airfow, Model A guys will confirm this.  You may be onto something.  99.9% of the time Ed is right on but your point about running without sheetmetal seems like something to consider.  Your close, pan just might do the trick....

[Grimy]

Incremental, one-at-a-time changes are the right way to go.

[95Cardinal]

The pan should be very helpful.

 

Good idea to replace the entire exhaust system. A 2.25" diameter exhaust pipe has almost 50% less cross-sectional area than a 2.75" diameter pipe.

[edinmass]

I expect the missing pan will make an incremental improvement……..missing parts are never a good thing. I forgot you had it running cool on the stand with your radiator that is in current use. Seems like too big a stretch to have the pan give you the 30 percent more heat exchange that I think you need to get a comfortable margin of capacity. One neve knows till you try. The small exhaust is not helping you either……..when on the stand you had an open header pipe no? Restricted exhaust could also be a problem……..?

[AB-Buff]

Matt

On my 1934 KA the header pipe is 2.750 inches. The header pipe on my 35 is 3.0 inches. It looks like a stock header pipe, mandrill bent. I wonder if yours is off a 1934KA?  I made my muffler it’s about 5 feet long , 6 inches in diameter stainless steel, a few baffles some tubes looks like a Gatling gun inside. But it’s 3” in and 2 1/2” out and it made an improvement on performance not huge, but it was noticeable, also sounds nice. Not as quiet as stock. I should also add that my old exhaust system, the muffler were two each 2 1/2 inch in an out mufflers welded together. So it went from my 3 inch to 2 1/2 and then they ran a 2 1/4” out the back. Absolutely quiet, not good though. Two pictures show the muffler, it’s three chambers.

 

I think that pan in front of help also, next time mines on the left I can take a picture of what it looks like it’s similar to yours, but it goes much lower to the ground. The horns are actually inside that area. 

 

[38Buick 80C]

I agree the pan will help. I think you are going to want to roll some beads in the pan to give it some more structural rigidity, but for now lets see how she does.

[Matt Harwood]

Finished installing the front air duct and there were no surprises. It fit like it was supposed to even after I installed some insulation around the grille opening. I also added some foam between the radiator and the crossmember to help seal the area. 95% of the air has to go through the radiator now. We'll see if anything changes.

 

I used some 5/16" fuel hose as insulation between

the grille opening and the new air duct. The

new duct seals tightly to the opening.

 

 

Installed and horns reinstalled. Note the foam

above the duct to force the air through the radiator.

Unhappy that I scratched it when I  accidentally

dropped it.

 

It's completely invisible from the outside.

 

Unfortunately, I was not able to take it for a test drive and see if anything has improved--it's pouring rain today. Hopefully it'll be clear tomorrow and I can do some repeatable driving tests and see if anything has improved. I'm not going to take anything else apart since I'm hoping to take it to a show on the 4th. After that we'll deal with the coolant leak.

 

Oh, and I also readjusted the left front wheel bearing. Hopefully that's the source of the noise.

 

9 hours ago, 38Buick 80C said:

I agree the pan will help. I think you are going to want to roll some beads in the pan to give it some more structural rigidity, but for now lets see how she does.

 

Dang, I wish I'd thought of that. It's a good idea. Fortunately the pan is 16-gauge steel, so it's already pretty stiff. The way it's mounted and with a bit of pressure against the fuel hose acting as insulation, it doesn't rattle or vibrate (which would make me nuts anyway). I don't think it will be a problem. I just hope it works to cool things off a bit...

[BuickTom87]

I’m jealous of your skills and ability ! I wish I was able to do something of this caliber. 

[edinmass]

Phil loves to use Indian Head Shellac on hoses…….drives me crazy. His hoses don’t leak….and they come apart easily…..available at Napa and other decent parts stores.

[Grimy]

8 minutes ago, edinmass said:

His hoses don’t leak….and they come apart easily

Tell us his technique to make them "come apart easily" please....

[Matt Harwood]

8 minutes ago, Grimy said:

Tell us his technique to make them "come apart easily" please....

Apparently you need hands like George "the Animal" Steele to rip them apart.

[JustDave]

Matt,do you think the fog lights could be cutting off some air flow

[EmTee]

10 hours ago, JustDave said:

Matt,do you think the fog lights could be cutting off some air flow

Oh boy, here we go again... 

[Grimy]

Returning to the issue mentioned at the top of this page about the filler neck on an angle at the very top of the core:  To avoid puking coolant as it expands while heated, top off ONLY when hot or up to operating temperature.  I have the same issue on my 1934 and 1936 Pierces.  When doing a cold refill, as when changing coolant, put in only 80% of published capacity, warm the car up and THEN top off.

[Matt Harwood]

No rain this morning so I got up early and had breakfast with Melanie, then we went driving. I made a spreadsheet to track our test drives and mapped out a 20-mile route that is repeatable and should not be subject to traffic problems, regardless of when I drive. We also included a stop in a cul-de-sac for a 3-minute idle after 15 miles of driving, just to add a little stress. The spreadsheet includes ambient temperature, mileage when I leave, mileage when I return (should be 20 miles every time, now that I think about it), temperature when I stop for 3 minutes, temperature after the 3 minute stop, and the temperature on the gauge when I get back from the drive. 20 miles should be plenty to get the engine up to operating temperature, including the oil. Doing that for a few days, both with and without the restrictors, should give me a pretty clear picture of what the engine prefers.

 

That said, today it was only 68 degrees when we left and 73 when we returned about 45 minutes later. The drive was completely effortless and temperatures stayed at 170-175, inching up to 180 during the 3-minute idle period, but almost instantly cooling off once we started moving again. I took this as a good sign, as well as evidence that my problem is more air flow than radiator/cooling system. It loved the low-70s temperatures this morning. It was a great drive except for the rattly and squeaky sidemount covers.

After the test drive, Melanie took the wheel and we drove it another 20 miles and it just happily cruised along at 170 degrees. Oil pressure was just under the middle mark on the factory gauge and I'm not going to lose much sleep over it. It is what it is. But Melanie's drive was comfortable and easy. She was thrilled to be driving it and started to get pretty comfortable behind the wheel. That's absolutely the goal. 

 

We got back to the shop and I tackled a few projects. One, I re-torqued the head studs, which were still pretty tight--at 60 ft-lbs they turned less than 45 degrees before hitting the limit. So my head studs are still holding properly. Good news.

 

Melanie was also a little flustered by the squirrely brakes. They're actually quite strong, but the first application when they're cool (or have had a chance to cool off while driving) there's a bit of a tug to the left. I've been fighting this since I first started driving it. I've adjusted the brakes by the book, but I think my reasoning was faulty. See, I figured that since it pulled to the left, the left front brake was too tight. So I backed off the left front brake. It still pulled to the left. So I tightened the right front brake to try to compensate. Still no change. 

 

Huh. That's weird. 

 

Today I put it in the air and pulled the wheels to re-check the bearings and found that the left front wheel spun effortlessly while the right front wheel was almost locked up too much to turn by hand. Both adjusters were at the limits of their travel, but in opposite directions; the left was all the way loose and the right was all the way tight from my earlier adjustments. I played with the adjusters until both had about the same amount of drag--just a little bit so I could hear the shoe on the brake drum and there was just some slight drag. They're fairly even now.

 

My theory on pulling to the left has changed. I now believe that since the right front was always in contact with the drum, when I applied the brakes to stop it was already applied, while the left shoes actually had to move to contact the drum a split-second later. That sudden grab on just the left side was why it pulled to the left even though the right side was tighter.

 

That's my theory, anyway.

 

Unfortunately, before I could test my theory, the sky opened up and drenched the roads. But with both sides adjusted for about the same amount of drag, I think it should be a lot more stable.

We're going to a 4th of July car show in the morning, so we'll find out then whether I was right...

 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

Great news Matt. Once you get the lower hose issue fixed and you fill with antifreeze, you may want the restricters installed. Antifreeze doesn’t absorb and release heat at the same rate as plain water. It’s a little slower. So the restricters may be needed. Enjoy the car show!  Mike 

[edinmass]

21 hours ago, JustDave said:

Matt,do you think the fog lights could be cutting off some air flow

Absolutely they are………..😏

[Matt Harwood]

Had a very good day. Drove to the Chagrin Falls car show at 10:30 this morning when it was about 75 degrees and the car was nice and cool, no complaints. I didn't even open the glove box to watch. It was all good. The show wasn't much of a show with only about two dozen garden-variety cars, but it's near my folks' house so they came to join us for lunch. My 84-year-old step-father with Parkinson's was able to make it and enjoyed looking at the cars. It was also his first time seeing the Lincoln, which he liked very much. His caregiver, Brian, is a pretty awesome dude, too. We had lunch and left around 2:00 after they gave the people's choice to a green 1968 Mustang fastback (which I predicted would win).

 

Not much of a show, only about two dozen

cars. But a good location and my folks

came to join us.

 

 

I opened the hood when I was near the car, but

kept it closed when I couldn't guard it. I was

afraid someone would bump it and it would

slam closed and do some damage or hurt someone.

I spent $50,000 on that engine, you 

know I'm gonna show it off.

 

My step-father, Aaron, was happy to be there

and see the show. He doesn't get out much

these days and I was glad to see him. He's

wearing Melanie's hat to keep from burning

his head--that's not his usual look.

 

Melanie drove us home while I watched the gauges. It was about 84 degrees ambient and the drive was about 12 miles of 35-40 MPH with normal red lights and traffic and one long uphill slog. The thing ran at 175-180 all the way there and back without any drama. It also cooled off quickly after longer stops. I am cautiously optimistic that the new pan up front is making a difference. Car seems to like Melanie more than it likes me. There has been a metallic chang-chang-chang noise coming from under the car or one of the hubs and I don't have any idea what it could be. It stops when I put in the clutch. But it also mysteriously stopped when Melanie took the wheel. Huh, how about that?

 

I'll have to investigate with the wheels off the ground and see if I can find it. I'm a little concerned that it's inside the torque tube, which is problematic for obvious reasons.

 

Oh, and the idle went up again. I'm running out of idle screw to back off to drop it back to normal.

 

And if I could just get those goddamned sidemount covers to stop rattling and squeaking (I've tried a half-dozen remedies) I'd be really happy. But I can't complain about the results we had today. Nice work, Lincoln!

 

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Grimy]

We're all delighted that you were not chagrined in Chagrin Falls, Matt!  (Sorry, I couldn't resist...)