Thoughts on the National, BCA, etc.

[Bill Stoneberg]

I agree completey with Pete and Matt.  You spend the time and effort to get it correct and it shows.  Good example the 49 convertible on the showfield.  It was a beautiful car but it was so wrong I imagine it did not so well in judging.  A little more effort on getting the engine color correct, for example and it could have been an award winner. (I dont know how he did BTW, but I know that era car).

[Smartin]

The 49 convertible was restored in the 80's...still showed very well but could use a little freshening up to really pop.

 

It blows my mind that someone called to complain about judging results.  At least wait for the judging sheet to see why.  If there is a legitimate gripe, then bring it up...or not.  All of those judges burned a good portion of their day grinding through all those cars. 

[KongaMan]

If I got a Silver, I’d question the judging, too.   

 

More generally, ask yourself this: 6000(?) BCA members, how many cars were judged?  Is the tail wagging the dog?

[dibarlaw]

I do admit that our team was at a bit of a loss since we were down one man and 2 of us were not feeling well. But. We did inform all the owners where mandatory deductions would need to be done. Most had no problem with this. Others seemed to not understand what was expected.

 I know at Denver last year there were cars in our classes that those owners knew what was expected and did go the extra effort for presentation and did very well.

 Many of what we were to judge this year were older, somewhat "interpretive" restorations. There were several nice gems though. A new young member wanted us to "hit him hard" as he said to learn about what he would need to improve upon. He was just learning about authenticity of his car. He seemed very grateful for our input. Another owner confided that he was more concerned with getting a high score so he could include that in the sale ad for the car. So, as one can see there are differing motivations as to getting a car judged.

 I thank my team members for their patience and understanding. Also the owners of the cars for being able to submit their cars to the rigors of this type of judging. Even with them knowing that there were deductions to be done.

[Jack Welch]

I am bit offended to see the word Trailer queen popping up here. It is a divisive and derogatory remark about the cars and owner all in itself. With our roads and driver attitudes the way the currently are. I believe many people trailer their cars (especially prewar cars) because they are too nervous driving any distance any more. This year , thirty percent of all cars judges were trailered . Most members with a car earlier than 1936, that live any distance away from the meet have very little chance of doing much else . I spoke to Bill McLaughiln , who takes his '29 everywhere and even he was a bit concerned about the speed of passing traffic. 

As to the judging at this year's National , if one were to look around the room at the Judges breakfast, most of the judges this years were guys and gals that have been doing this a long time . That alone should gives an indication that it was done fairly and knowledgeably . Having your car judged at any National Meet (regardless of marque) is playing with the big boys, so we should all be acting like big boys. 

[dei]

37 minutes ago, Jack Welch said:

I am bit offended to see the word Trailer queen popping up here. It is a divisive and derogatory remark about the cars and owner all in itself. With our roads and driver attitudes the way the currently are. I believe many people trailer their cars (especially prewar cars) because they are too nervous driving any distance any more. This year , thirty percent of all cars judges were trailered . Most members with a car earlier than 1936, that live any distance away from the meet have very little chance of doing much else . I spoke to Bill McLaughiln , who takes his '29 everywhere and even he was a bit concerned about the speed of passing traffic. 

As to the judging at this year's National , if one were to look around the room at the Judges breakfast, most of the judges this years were guys and gals that have been doing this a long time . That alone should gives an indication that it was done fairly and knowledgeably . Having your car judged at any National Meet (regardless of marque) is playing with the big boys, so we should all be acting like big boys. 

 

By your posting you have given me something to reconsider the next time I think about referring to a car as a "trailer queen" Jack.

 

With my cars being used as drivers, which I'm comfortable with, and having seen first hand the efforts and finish that 95Cardinal has accomplished with his '58 Caballero, it just makes so much sense to trailer his car to a meet for show (regardless of judging awards or not).

I personally would hate to get road chips on that somewhat flat 58 Hood or break a headlight or.... let alone dealing with panic stops in today's traffic after so much effort on the car!

In my mind it never was to be meant as divisive or derogatory but understand that it is all too generalised a statement usually said with a raised eyebrow...

 

Next time I comment on a car coming in like that I will drop the "queen" part and just appreciate the car (and owner) for what it is.  

[60FlatTop]

I have just been trying to get to a BCA National since the 2011 one in Danvers. All I want to do is get there. Something keeps coming up. I came close to flying out to both Milwaukee and Denver and renting a car to get there.

 

I want to get to the 2020 meet and see how the 100 year old car recognition is going. I remember what a big deal it was when they weren't saluted, haven't hear them mentioned the last two years. Funny how obsessions come and go.

[J3Studio]

13 hours ago, dibarlaw said:

Others seemed to not understand what was expected.

 

Bingo. A major problem in any kind of serious judging.

 

When I was notably younger and far more motivated in the NCRS, my wife and I used to teach a seminar for judging newbies called Flight Judging (an approximate equivalent of 400-point judging, though a somewhat different approach) for First Timers. Our agenda would include:

 

• Background on the Event
• Before the Day of Judging
• What to Bring
• Flight Judging Basics
• Operations
• Preparing for Judging at the Meet
• Judging
• Tabulating and Wrap-up
• What’s Next
• Additional Questions

 

The folks who did show up for the seminar inevitably had a better judging experience, largely because they didn't make any unforced errors. Of course, getting people to self-identify as needing the information isn't always so easy.

Edited June 21, 2019 by J3Studio (see edit history)

[Jack Welch]

36 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

I have just been trying to get to a BCA National since the 2011 one in Danvers. All I want to do is get there. Something keeps coming up. I came close to flying out to both Milwaukee and Denver and renting a car to get there.

 

I want to get to the 2020 meet and see how the 100 year old car recognition is going. I remember what a big deal it was when they weren't saluted, haven't hear them mentioned the last two years. Funny how obsessions come and go.

The 100 year recognition program is alive and well, hope to see you in Ohio

[B Jake Moran]

The term Trailer Queen is a state of mind and has little to do with rather the car arrived on a trailer or was driven.  Trailer Queens as a term is part of the collector car nomenclature whether we like it or not. Like "Barn Find" and "Ran it was Parked." 

 

How can one tell the difference between a Trailer Queen and a trailered car?  The Trailer Queen spends most of it's time in the enclosed trailer, is allowed out for judging only, at the least possible amount of time, and after judging is promptly taken back to the trailer and enclosed or a car cover is placed on it, if open trailered.  Movement out of the trailer and back on is done with utmost attention to possible damage, the driving experience being a non factor.  These are usually "one and done's" - cars we may never see again after they get their trophy. 

 

A Trailered car by contrast is enthusiastically driven down, horn beeping, friends gathering by, the number of it's inclusion in the National meet can be counted on more than one hand, more than likely, and anyone that wants to hop on is allowed to.  It lingers on the show field, is driven on the local tours, passers by are encouraged to sit in it.  Then reluctantly it is loaded up to return home. 

 

That is why Trailer Queen as a term has stuck with the old car hobby.

[Matt Harwood]

24 minutes ago, B Jake Moran said:

The term Trailer Queen is a state of mind and has little to do with rather the car arrived on a trailer or was driven.  Trailer Queens as a term is part of the collector car nomenclature whether we like it or not. Like "Barn Find" and "Ran it was Parked." 

 

How can one tell the difference between a Trailer Queen and a trailered car?  The Trailer Queen spends most of it's time in the enclosed trailer, is allowed out for judging only, at the least possible amount of time, and after judging is promptly taken back to the trailer and enclosed or a car cover is placed on it, if open trailered.  Movement out of the trailer and back on is done with utmost attention to possible damage, the driving experience being a non factor.  These are usually "one and done's" - cars we may never see again after they get their trophy. 

 

A Trailered car by contrast is enthusiastically driven down, horn beeping, friends gathering by, the number of it's inclusion in the National meet can be counted on more than one hand, more than likely, and anyone that wants to hop on is allowed to.  It lingers on the show field, is driven on the local tours, passers by are encouraged to sit in it.  Then reluctantly it is loaded up to return home. 

 

That is why Trailer Queen as a term has stuck with the old car hobby.

 

I can't disagree with any of that. There IS a distinct difference between cars restored to collect trophies and cars that are trailered to events simply because they're too far to safely/reliably drive. I drive my 1929 Cadillac frequently and it is far from a show car, but I trailered it to Washington DC for the CLC national meet two years ago. I wouldn't risk that long a drive in it. I also have several cars in my showroom that were clearly restored only to be as cosmetically perfect as possible with no pretext that they would be driven. They do run and drive, but that was obviously a secondary concern to the accuracy of the cosmetics. I don't object to the term "trailer queen" when referencing cars like that, although I also agree that it can seem pejorative in certain contexts.

[old-tank]

3 hours ago, Jack Welch said:

I am bit offended to see the word Trailer queen popping up here. It is a divisive and derogatory remark about the cars and owner all in itself.

Thanks Jack!  You beat me to it...but you were nicer than I would have been since I absolutely despise that term.  I have found that when restoring a car these people are more than willing to help with information and suggestions.

The opposite of that term would be "too cheap and lazy to restore a car to that level" (thankfully I have never heard that!) 

[NC-car-guy]

3 minutes ago, old-tank said:

Thanks Jack!  You beat me to it...but you were nicer than I would have been since I absolutely despise that term.  I have found that when restoring a car these people are more than willing to help with information and suggestions.

The opposite of that term would be "too cheap and lazy to restore a car to that level" (thankfully I have never heard that!) 

Ashame some are just too poor to restore to that level.

[Bhigdog]

So where does that place me and my cars.

I restored them myself doing everything (except sewing the upholstery) to AACA Grand National and Buick Gold. Because of the amount of MY effort and MY appreciation of the beauty of their design and condition, I trailer if more than an hour drive. And NO, I do not let people climb over or in my cars. Yes, I do occasionally take them out for an ice cream or a short "excercise" drive. Yes, I do have my cars judged but only as a validation of MY efforts. No, I am not a "trophy hunter" and routinely refuse the hardware.

So, If you want to call my cars trailer queens go right ahead. As you are doing it I will be admiring their beauty as examples of  automotive art rather than as used cars I boast about driving.................Bob

 

[60FlatTop]

Imagine the number of "trailer queens" that would be out there if a collector was only allowed one car.

 

Maybe the opposite of Trailer Queen would be Automotive Attention Deficit.

 

Well, I'm heading out to the garage to do something with one of them.

[Thriller]

Interesting thoughts.

 

I have trailered some of my cars to National meets at times.  In 2007, the 1941 was new to me and the meet was 3 days drive.  Putting it on a trailer behind the truck actually saved fuel money.  It cost me a headlight though on the open trailer.  Sometimes it’s a matter of expediency in getting there.  Damage control is a factor now that I have an enclosed hauler.  Of the cars that have been judged, the highest they’ve gotten is silver, so it isn’t about extremely fine examples, but more about preserving my investment in them.

 

It all comes back to tolerance of different folks and their preferences for their cars.  We don’t have to like everyone nor how they treat their cars, but we should either just move on or accept it and deal with the people and cars we do like.

 

[1957buickjim]

2 hours ago, dei said:

 

By your posting you have given me something to reconsider the next time I think about referring to a car as a "trailer queen" Jack.

 

With my cars being used as drivers, which I'm comfortable with, and having seen first hand the efforts and finish that 95Cardinal has accomplished with his '58 Caballero, it just makes so much sense to trailer his car to a meet for show (regardless of judging awards or not).

I personally would hate to get road chips on that somewhat flat 58 Hood or break a headlight or.... let alone dealing with panic stops in today's traffic after so much effort on the car!

In my mind it never was to be meant as divisive or derogatory but understand that it is all too generalised a statement usually said with a raised eyebrow...

 

Next time I comment on a car coming in like that I will drop the "queen" part and just appreciate the car (and owner) for what it is.   

 Doug,

 

I get what you are saying, but just as much, it is about risk taking and enjoying the car both. I drove my 1957 Buick to my first meet in Charlotte in 2012, subject to all the road dangers that any automobile would encounter, which in the big picture are fairly low probability, freshly restored, and got a Senior Gold award.

 

It never crossed my mind to trailer the car, ever. In my humble opinion, the cars are meant to drive, and if you want to have it judged, the go at it. As for all this discussion about $$$$$$$$$ of the restoration and judging and stuff, I would suggest that those who are not familiar with my posts,

 

How to do a frame on restoration?

By 1957buickjim, December 16, 2010 in Me and My Buick

 

show that doing it by yourself, with a good understanding of the restoration process and program management skills as well as budgeting, can get a senior award without spending $$$$$$$$$$ (a ton) with elbow grease, mechanical ability, friends with cars and capabilities. Sure, any hobby will cost money, and it is how a person spends their discretionary money in ways that makes them happy, be it a boat, casino's, camping, whatever.

 

Sure, you can spend a boat load, and judging is not for the faint of heart, but if one actually reads the judging manuals and follows them, and does some research, you can get your car to that level without the restoration shop investment, if you have the drive and passion for it.

 

I understand it is an individual undertaking and personal decision regarding the restoration and how you might get it to the meets, with everyone having their method and reasons. All is good with that. That's what allows us to be a brotherhood in the hobby.

Regardless of how you got your car to the show, the benefit is the discussion, the beauty, workmanship and the camaraderie that surrounds the event and the people.

 

There's my 2 cents worth..I know I'm probably gonna get some change with that.. 

 

Jim

[B Jake Moran]

1 hour ago, old-tank said:

Thanks Jack!  You beat me to it...but you were nicer than I would have been since I absolutely despise that term.  I have found that when restoring a car these people are more than willing to help with information and suggestions.

The opposite of that term would be "too cheap and lazy to restore a car to that level" (thankfully I have never heard that!) 

 

I was only providing an explanation of the use of the term.   The hobby is big enough to include all of the folks, and reasons for restoration.  A "high point car", perfectly restored or over restored is indeed a work of art.   A person (usually) does not see an art collector with a $30 million dollar Picasso put it on the wall in the sunroom!   

[B Jake Moran]

The fact is that roads and options for travel are much different now than in the much slower paced 1970's.   Travel to the meets by trailer will be become more common and simply - common sense.    Consider - even many service stations are gone from the landscape.  I remember picking up a couple of Buicks in Washington state or Montana and driving them home to the Midwest in the mid 1990's.  I broke down.  I had a few options then.  Now, most of those shops are gone. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

 

 Ain't life grand?

 

   We can have several different opinions , desires, destinations and STILL  be friends and be proud of our BUICKS. 

 

  Ben

[Jack Welch]

My objection to the rem "trailer queen "is that it is often said in a derogative manor. When I was Co Chair of the Danvers BCA meet, one of my volunteers (a close personal reined of mine) who was handling show field parking referred to a car sent up from a very high end collection as a trailer queen. The curator of that collection, and also the driver of the rig that transported it to our show was really offended by the remark, and said he would be happy to return it to its owner, if we did not want to show it in the Buick Club event. The car was a custom bodied "full Classic" one off car. It had come several hundred miles to our show. The incident was an embarrassment to me as Show

Co - Chair . It would have really been an embarrassment , if the curator / driver had not been so gracious about accepting my apology. The car was a very big hit at our meet. Many BCA'ers got a chance to see a car, that they will probably never see again .I have since had the opportunity to ride many miles in that "trailer queen" during an CCCA tour.

we should criticize those that treat their cars as art, any more than we should imply that an unrestored car is not worthy of being shown. One of my favorite cars at Midwest City (and from the attention it was getting a favorite of many others) was the 1942 Special short wheelbase 4 dr sedan. A car worthy of a lot of love and deserving of some restoration. The ask was $6500. A very rare car for short money.  All  Buicks have a place in our hobby. 

[Robert G. Smits]

I find it hard to understand why one gets their shorts in a knot over the term Trailer Queen.  If it quacks like a Duck it is probably a Duck.  If you spend $200K restoring a piece of art you are probably not going to drive it to shows at least until you get your awards.  If this offends you stop going to shows.  I was on the awards circuit for many years but have been to only three judged shows in the last 20 years.  Instead I tour with several clubs and trailer to tours unless they are close to my home.  Who Cares!!!  If you find the term pejorative just consider who uttered it.  To quote my 101 year old grandfather, "It's my money and I will spend it any D--- way I want to"  Just my TCW on a subject you have whipped to death.

[60FlatTop]

It is pretty hard to say "that trailer Queen" or "That lizard" without using the same tone of voice.

 

I did get a big smile out of the auto spell that gave us  "a close personal reined of mine". There are a few that can be taken aside and reined in a bit. How Freudian.

 

Lunch is over, back to the short attention span garage.

 

Bernie

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

2 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

It is pretty hard to say "that trailer Queen" or "That lizard" without using the same tone of voice.

 

I did get a big smile out of the auto spell that gave us  "a close personal reined of mine". There are a few that can be taken aside and reined in a bit. How Freudian.

 

Lunch is over, back to the short attention span garage.

 

Bernie

 

 You caught that, too.  I try proof reading, and still miss those. Most always surprised when others do.

 

  Ben

 

[Matt Harwood]

Whether the term "trailer queen" is OK or derogatory only depends on how much stank you put on the words when you say it.

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2019 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

I must be getting old. "Spell checker" still makes me think of the three old women in the Shakespeare play.

[Bhigdog]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

Whether the term "trailer queen" is OK or derogatory only depends on how much stank you put on the words when you say it.

 

I call my cars Trailer Queens. I have that right because they are mine, I know them,  and they know I care for them. When some one else uses that term it is usually in a derogatory manner, a slur, implying lack of credibility or authenticity and meant to diminish. The person using it in that manner is seldom knowledgeable.................Bob

Edited June 21, 2019 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

On 6/20/2019 at 11:49 AM, Terry Wiegand said:

Somebody mentioned human nature here - it is that human nature that has a lot of people looking down their noses at the less fortunate, or those with less cash available to them. 

 

Terry, in my car collecting experience, I've met some

people who would be considered truly wealthy.  Maybe

I've just met the good ones, but all have been as humble

as anyone else.  Meeting them at the hardware store, you

would never know:

 

---One has endowed his car collection with $100,000,000.

He told me it's not about him--it's about preserving history.

 

---Another had an 8-figure salary, not counting extra work

and investments.  He has at least 150 cars, from modest ones

to several Duesenbergs.  He is just an ordinary guy.

 

---Another grew up with a butler and a household of servants.

His house, at least 30,000 square feet, is on 500 acres.  He

got a new car--a Chevrolet Chevette--in 1980 and drove it

regularly for 19 years.  "Why buy a new car when the old one

still works?" he told me. 

 

All these men are modest and unassuming, though for the most

part they have worked long and hard and accomplished much. 

Even past "retirement" age, they all keep going and achieving.

The one with the 8-figure salary is one of the best in his occupation.

Isn't it great when in "human nature" we see all the good, unspoiled aspects!

Edited June 21, 2019 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[NC-car-guy]

@John_S_in_Penna lucky you.  The local few big money cars guys here brag at every dang show.... If I hear how much guy x spent frenching his lights one more time.... Ugb

[J3Studio]

1 hour ago, NC-car-guy said:

@John_S_in_Penna lucky you.  The local few big money cars guys here brag at every dang show.... If I hear how much guy x spent frenching his lights one more time.... Ugb

 

I think there's truth on both sides here. My wife, whose job is dealing with "high net-worth individuals," often states that more money just accentuates what you already are.

Edited June 22, 2019 by J3Studio (see edit history)

[CarNucopia]

This thread started as a nice travel-log about going to the BCA National. But true to form, some guys never miss an opportunity transition to complaining about what takes place on the showfield. You paint quite a picture for people who are considering attending an event for the first time or joining the club. 🤦‍♂️

[MRJBUICK]

Buick64C   I understand what you might be thinking, but this is the place where ideas should be hashed about, i know after our local show 

I always want feedback, some will be good some bad, i need to figure out what needs to be changed. There are people on this thread that are very involved 

and i am sure there are even more reading. i would rather do this here and have more time at the show.

just a bunch of car collectors doing some bench racing lol.

 

Edited June 22, 2019 by MRJBUICK (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

13 hours ago, Buick64C said:

But true to form

 

If they were unpredictable it could be a sign of insanity.

 

I did notice the topic went from the cars and then to the people. Didn't I recently read "I came for the cars, but stayed for the people".

 

Here is something I have noticed over a lifetime of observation pertaining to the last couple of people with money- It seems that people with less money are gifted with mind reading abilities. I hardly ever hear a wealthy person say "that guy thinks". Just something predictable.

 

The kids say it doesn't take much to entertain me.

Bernie

 

[CarNucopia]

39 minutes ago, MRJBUICK said:

Buick64C   I understand what you might be thinking, but this is the place where ideas should be hashed about, i know after our local show 

I always want feedback, some will be good some bad, i need to figure out what needs to be changed. There are people on this thread that are very involved 

and i am sure there are even more reading. i would rather do this here and have more time at the show.

just a bunch of car collectors doing some bench racing lol.

 

 

That's a fair point, but I don't think that's what's happening here.

 

My perspective is that of someone who is a member of a few car clubs and probably a dozen forums. In all my interactions within the motoring hobby, there isn't a group that bickers as much as the BCA. Combine that with the fact a club board member PMed me to lecture me that "We pre-war enthusiasts have an unwritten rule to never offer much help to those we don't (know) much of anything about."

 

I love Prewar cars, particularly old Buicks, but there are friendlier place to spend my time, which is why I am no longer a member. I'm offering this as constructive criticism. 

[Thriller]

32 minutes ago, Buick64C said:

 

That's a fair point, but I don't think that's what's happening here.

 

My perspective is that of someone who is a member of a few car clubs and probably a dozen forums. In all my interactions within the motoring hobby, there isn't a group that bickers as much as the BCA. Combine that with the fact a club board member PMed me to lecture me that "We pre-war enthusiasts have an unwritten rule to never offer much help to those we don't (know) much of anything about."

 

I love Prewar cars, particularly old Buicks, but there are friendlier place to spend my time, which is why I am no longer a member. I'm offering this as constructive criticism. 

 

That’s disappointing to hear about that lecture.  We PWD members don’t all think that way.

 

That said, on the forums, and on some Facebook groups, questions sometimes come up from newbies without context which can make it more challenging to answer appropriately or to make a decent recommendation.  I know some folks can get grumpy when someone wants to modify cars, but that’s a whole other ball of wax...again, tolerance is useful in cases like that.

 

[Matt Harwood]

I can't imagine not helping someone with a pre-war Buick, regardless of that the club says. If someone has a question and I know the answer, I'm going to share.

 

A guy who specifically tells me why I can't help someone else is a guy who gets a punch in the nose.

[wildcatsrule]

At the end of the day, we should all just be grateful to be alive and hopefully healthy enough to still drive and enjoy our cars and the old car hobby. Plus celebrate the fact that so many Buick's from years past have survived in ANY condition without having been recycled into refrigerators or tuna fish cans!

[Jack Welch]

6 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

I can't imagine not helping someone with a pre-war Buick, regardless of that the club says. If someone has a question and I know the answer, I'm going to share.

 

A guy who specifically tells me why I can't help someone else is a guy who gets a punch in the nose.

Matt; all I know is if you go on the Prewar forum, there is a whole lot of sharing going on, so I don't know who who indicate that the PW Division does not help others. Maybe some one with an axe of their own to grind.

[CarNucopia]

46 minutes ago, Jack Welch said:

Matt; all I know is if you go on the Prewar forum, there is a whole lot of sharing going on, so I don't know who who indicate that the PW Division does not help others. Maybe some one with an axe of their own to grind.

 

My experience has been the same. The DM was because the sender didn’t like the fact I don’t use my name and location in my posts.

[MRJBUICK]

possibly just the "ONE BAD APPLE"