Will the Cadillac XLR be a Collectible?

[TerryB]

Saw one the other day parked at a supermarket.  Corvette and Cadillac blend of a two seater sports car. Will this be the next collector car in 20 years?  Don’t know much about them.  I thought the Chrysler Crossfire might be in that club too.  The new Farmers Insurance commercial features a Crossfire convertible getting filled with concrete so maybe it’s not going to get all star treatment down the road.  Any thoughts?

Edited February 12, 2019 by TerryB (see edit history)

[cheezestaak2000]

probably both will as the older cars price themselves out of the market. the crossfire was a bargain when new. it was about 15 grand less than the mercedes that was built on the same assembly line. hey, can can remember in the 60's when i bought a very nice 1957 cadillac fleetwood 75 limo for less than a hundred bucks from a local funeral home.

 

[TerryB]

In the early 1970s my buddy bought a running and driving 1937 LaSalle hearse for $200.  He just used it as a driver as he had crashed his regular driver and thought this would be fun.  He was 22 at the time.  It held a lot of beer in the back!  

 

It seems there should be someone out there grabbing these newer cars while they are at the bottom of the appreciation curve.

[Buffalowed Bill]

Find your Crystal ball, but when it fails to answer your inquiry, throw up your hands, plunk down $20-35K and buy it because you like it. I happen to like the concept, but I like the Crossfire too, but it's in a specialty market, to which I might add the 2002-2003 Thunderbird and the Jaguar XK8. If I were going to bet on niche market, I would bet on the Mercedes SLK, because of the company's international appeal. 

[Ed Luddy]

I like the style of them "Corvette in a tuxedo". Electrical gremlins and a roof that is problematic is the reason my friend got rid of his.

 

[Pfeil]

4 hours ago, TerryB said:

Saw one the other day parked at a supermarket.  Corvette and Cadillac blend of a two seater sports car. Will this be the next collector car in 20 years?  Don’t know much about them.  I thought the Chrysler Crossfire might be in that club too.  The new Farmers Insurance commercial features a Crossfire convertible getting filled with concrete so maybe it’s not going to get all star treatment down the road.  Any thoughts?

Not if the "New Green Deal" goes through. Do you realize that all the new presidential hopefuls have endorsed it? 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[TerryB]

6 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

Not if the "New Green Deal" goes through. Do you realize that all the new presidential hopefuls have endorsed it? 

Ok, so maybe we should be buying the first Tesla roadsters or the Citi-Cars as our future collectibles.  My crystal ball can’t seem to decide!

[Pfeil]

Just now, TerryB said:

Ok, so maybe we should be buying the first Tesla roadsters or the Citi-Cars as our future collectibles.  My crystal ball can’t seem to decide!

I was thinking the same thing. They sure screw things up when planning for the future.

[39BuickEight]

I think they will be very collectible, but it will take longer than 20 years. 

[gossp]

I think if they have half the electrical gremlins that my ‘08 cts has... none will survive to be collected. 

 

That said, Bugatti’s and a lot of Rolls are temperamental and there are a few out there that like them. 

[padgett]

Citicar was the only car I know that wrapped a brake caliper around the axle in a road test.

 

There were a number of GM "halo" cars in the mid-80's: Fiero, Reatta, Allante. They have not appreciated yet. OTOH the GNs and GNXs have. There is no accounting for taste.

 

And on the gripping hand XLRs were asking in the mid-teens on CL in Central Florida a year ago & are in 20s now.

[8E45E]

I posted an XLR dash in this thread: 

 

XLR must be getting some recognition from the collector car fraternity, as it was at a vintage car show where I photographed it.

 

Craig

 

[Bill Harmatuk]

When is Toyota going to build a convertible sports car with the 5.7 in it.??

Just saying.

 

I've been watching a car I bought new in 1979 and in 40 years it has almost gained back its sticker price. I think 14,000 and some change.

Not a good investment.

Datsun 280 ZXR. 1 of 1001 built.

Bill H

 

 

[Marty Roth]

I almost bought an XLR early last year, and another one later in the year, but each time I thought better of the deal -

and both were super low-miles examples-

at first it was the oil and water problems of the early aluminum 4.6L Northstar engine,

and then the complexities of the folding aluminum roof,

and then the total lack of trunk space for cross-country driving if you actually want to lower the top -

I love the idea of the C-5 Corvette in Cadillac mode, but guess I'll stick with our AACA Senior/First Preservation 150,xxx mile C-4 red convertible to drive and show cross-country

Edited February 15, 2019 by Marty Roth
typo (see edit history)

[Joe in Canada]

There was one in the GM experimental in Oshawa when they had one there. The mechanic working on it told me he would never own one. Enough said.

[John348]

13 hours ago, gossp said:

I think if they have half the electrical gremlins that my ‘08 cts has... none will survive to be collected. 

 

That said, Bugatti’s and a lot of Rolls are temperamental and there are a few out there that like them. 

 

Gossp

You hit the nail on the head! It seems to be even harder for the dealer to find techs that even know Ohm's law let alone keep up with the changes on a vehicle that the dealer might only have sold one or two new. I know the heater controls in my 2015 CTS are wireless,...…. problems in the years to come, possibly and most likely probably, stuff like that is part of the built in obsolescence, and it becomes just too cost prohibitive to repair. Let alone the supply of service parts will be impossible to find, and someone who has the skills to diagnose it,  

Edited February 13, 2019 by John348 (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

21 minutes ago, John348 said:

 

Gossp

You hit the nail on the head! It seems to be even harder for the dealer to find techs that even know Ohm's law let alone keep up with the changes on a vehicle that the dealer might only have sold one or two new. I know the heater controls in my 2015 CTS are wireless,...…. problems in the years to come, possibly and most likely probably, stuff like that is part of the built in obsolescence, and it becomes just too cost prohibitive to repair. Let alone the supply of service parts will be impossible to find, and someone who has the skills to diagnose it,  

 

The problem comes from the group that determines the service procedures and writes the service manuals. I've got a collection of GM factory service manuals that range from 1952 through 1999.  Through the early 1970s, the manuals started each chapter with a discussion of how the system actually worked - charging system, oil system, brakes, even the automatic trans.  Starting with the 1970s, the manuals transitioned from teaching the tech how to diagnose a problem to providing troubleshooting checklists with virtually no discussion of "why".  The manual for my 1999 Chevy pickup is the worst.  The "theory" discussion is at most a paragraph at the very end of each section.  This SIX (count em', SIX) volumes are nearly all checklists, and nearly every checklist at some point has a step that says "replace computer with a known good unit and test again". If the failure is intermittent of if it isn't something that sets a unique MIL code, there is no information to troubleshoot that.  The wiring diagrams are so massive that each circuit gets it's own page, and since most are interconnected somehow, you need to constantly flip between pages (and often between volumes) to fully understand where there might be interactions. Even worse, where the older manuals were full of detailed photographs, the new ones use crappy cartoons that appear to have been drawn in crayon.  Of course, newer cars don't even have paper manuals anymore, just electronic ones.

[TerryB]

As John said, the complications, cost of repairs and hard to find parts of newer cars can be their downfall as a future collectible.  The other unknown is whether they will instill that feeling of “I always wanted one of them” to a future buyer who would step up to buy and restore or refurbish one.  The Porsche 911 seems to be holding on to its desirability and some MB offerings.  I like the Saturn / Pontiac two seater and the Crossfire as more modern offerings.  The Saturn/Pontiac seem to be enjoying a slight uptick in value based on some prices I’ve seen on the local marketplace of used cars.

[John348]

1 hour ago, TerryB said:

As John said, the complications, cost of repairs and hard to find parts of newer cars can be their downfall as a future collectible.  The other unknown is whether they will instill that feeling of “I always wanted one of them” to a future buyer who would step up to buy and restore or refurbish one.  The Porsche 911 seems to be holding on to its desirability and some MB offerings.  I like the Saturn / Pontiac two seater and the Crossfire as more modern offerings.  The Saturn/Pontiac seem to be enjoying a slight uptick in value based on some prices I’ve seen on the local marketplace of used cars.

 

Hey Terry,

I have two vehicles that apply to that "I wanted one when they were new" and they are on the newer end of my collection. A 1975 Chevrolet Cosworth and 1977 Chevrolet Monza Mirage. GM made literally millions of these H body cars and for the most part even simple parts are non existent. Common items like brake calipers, brake hoses even though the application is listed they are keyed differently and do not fit,  even 13" tires were a problem until a few months ago. As I attempt to relive part of my past with a car I did not have, it has become more frustration then anything else.  I have been working on this Monza for the past 10 days getting it ready for the upcoming meet here in Ocala next weekend.

When those cars were new and I wanted one, I was 18 and 20 years old, and I have a connection to those cars. I might be wrong but I don't see too many young people now that might have a connection to the Cadillac XLR, that we have with the cars of our past. 

[Frantz]

My friend bought one the other day, I didn't realize they had Northstar motors. I'm not a GM expert, are there better years for those? I remember the 1990s having issue with leaks, but many a good design has been plagued with early version issued folks never learn were fixed for later ones. Really nice machine, but not a Corvette. That will help them in some ways and hurt them in several more. I think they make a great value for the dollar but they will also probably deprecate longer and farther than the similar aged vettes will. I think collectible cars will have to be older than ever before to really be collectible though as cars last longer and get used longer as daily drivers.

For restoration, I'm really not too worried. Frankly while the computers could be a nightmare, they are also fairly easy to make if needed. If we start judging the circuit boards we'll be in trouble, but getting a computer to run the same input-output code means the aftermarket could make universal CPU boxes that you load up with your cars software and hardware connections. It's not here now, but certainly not hard to imagine as computers clunk out. 3D printing, even if it's to make molds for proper plastic injection is here now even for translucent pieces.

I'm frankly more concerned that we'll see legislation limit the use of old cars for emission and safety reasons.

[TerryB]

As cars get replaced with more truck and SUV type offerings I think the time to collectibility might actually decrease.  I know if I were in the market I would look now for something to buy while the selection and price are good.

[39BuickEight]

I know they are safe.  I handled a claim where a guy fell asleep running 55 and rear ended a stopped car, and he walked away.

Edited February 14, 2019 by 39BuickEight (see edit history)

[padgett]

Interesting:

"at first it was the oil and water problems of the early aluminum 4.6L Northstar engine,"  1993 ?

"and then the complexities of the folding aluminum roof, " 1996 SLK - same company though a bit more practical design in the Merc - can put top town in a conventional garage

 "and then the total lack of trunk space for cross-country driving if you actually want to lower the top "- why I bought an '11 CTSC for a DD & "personal luxury car". I consider it a modern Grand Prix Has a reasonably sized trunk, fold down rear seat, and a roof vent.

 

Have been thinking about replacing my SLK320 with an XLR for some time, just have not found the right deal.

 

ps had one of the '78 Sunbird coupes with a V8, 4-speed, and posi. Won a lot of autocrosses & used to crack a Right front Vega GT wheel nearly every weekend. Punched shocks through the top of the spring tower and shoved the clutch pivot through the firewall. Nearly everything I didn't break, cracked but embarrassed a lot of Porches & 'vettes.

"

[jeff_a]

No.

[Marty Roth]

On 2/14/2019 at 11:21 AM, padgett said:

Interesting:

"at first it was the oil and water problems of the early aluminum 4.6L Northstar engine,"  1993 ?

"and then the complexities of the folding aluminum roof, " 1996 SLK - same company though a bit more practical design in the Merc - can put top town in a conventional garage

 "and then the total lack of trunk space for cross-country driving if you actually want to lower the top "- why I bought an '11 CTSC for a DD & "personal luxury car". I consider it a modern Grand Prix Has a reasonably sized trunk, fold down rear seat, and a roof vent.

 

Have been thinking about replacing my SLK320 with an XLR for some time, just have not found the right deal.

 

ps had one of the '78 Sunbird coupes with a V8, 4-speed, and posi. Won a lot of autocrosses & used to crack a Right front Vega GT wheel nearly every weekend. Punched shocks through the top of the spring tower and shoved the clutch pivot through the firewall. Nearly everything I didn't break, cracked but embarrassed a lot of Porches & 'vettes.

"

 

"at first it was the oil and water problems of the early aluminum 4.6L Northstar engine,"  1993 ? 1993, 1994 & Early 1995 as I was told-

 

"and then the complexities of the folding aluminum roof,  - Dealer told me that when they act up you can be strictly Out-Of-Luck per replacement part, as is also the case with many other parts for XLR

 

 "and then the total lack of trunk space for cross-country driving if you actually want to lower the top " - More usable space in our 1988 'Vette convertible, and that aint much

[C Carl]

Northstar engines have the curse until around 2006 or so. My 2002 STS developed it at just over 100,000 miles. Typical. The 4T80E trans has its own problems. Torque converter lock up solenoid went out on mine also. Typical. I have heard that the input shaft speed sensor is vulnerable. But this engine is wonderful to drive, and if you can get the right deal, it is worth pulling the engine when the time comes. Just fix and replace everything fragile. Oh, and if you have an oil leak phobia, be aware that the only fix is to yank the engine out and replace the 1/2 case gasket. Again, fix EVERYTHING when the time comes to deal with anything.    -    Carl 

[TerryB]

In this age of information it’s possible to hear about all types of issues with most anything on the road.  I wonder what kind of similar information was available to buyers of cars long ago?  We probably would not have purchased many cars if we knew how bad they were going to be later on.  But we did buy them and endure all the problems and quirks that they came with.  Some taught us lessons on how to fix them or be creative to solve a problem.  Not saying it’s bad to listen to everything out there about some cars, the Cadillac Allante comes to mind in that respect, but it seems we can find a reason to not buy anything on four wheels.  The part that’s usually missing is the percentage of failure.  It’s easy to find those who are unhappy with a purchase online but rarely do those who are enjoying their vehicles say much on line about them.

[Ed Luddy]

 

Bad news has no speed limit, good news doesn't move hardly at all.

[John348]

On 2/14/2019 at 12:21 PM, padgett said:

ps had one of the '78 Sunbird coupes with a V8, 4-speed, and posi. Won a lot of autocrosses & used to crack a Right front Vega GT wheel nearly every weekend. Punched shocks through the top of the spring tower and shoved the clutch pivot through the firewall. Nearly everything I didn't break, cracked but embarrassed a lot of Porches & 'vettes.

"

 

 

OK,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,..just because you made me part of you fan club, I have to ask why your Pontiac Sunbird cracking 4 bolt rim's has to do with the XLR Cadillac's or anything else in this post

 

I really hope to meet you in Ocala next

[Walt G]

On 2/12/2019 at 3:16 PM, Buffalowed Bill said:

Find your Crystal ball,

This is my thought exactly, even if you do find what you think will be "collectable"  sometime in the future it not only comes down to $ but the proper space to keep it inside and free from damp and/or  humidity . Will you live long enough to be able to smile and say " I knew it would be the car to own( and invest in)"  But also consider what you can enjoy now , get in and drive, go down the road. Life is very short ( yes even if you are in your 30's in the blink of an eye you will be older a lot sooner then expected)  .. All of this hit home personally in the last 14 months. Don't think about a crystal ball , think about and use what you can afford.

[TerryB]

Long time ago I was shopping for a new motorcycle and Honda had two overlooked models that I thought would be desirable.  I was smart enough to buy one of them.  The one I did not buy did even better in the market than I expected.  Sure glad I bought the one I did, had it for 10 years of use and sold it for more than I paid for it new.  That time the crystal ball was working.  Wish it worked that good for lottery tickets!

[TerryB]

I bought the white Honda and passed on the black one.  They were both left over from the previous model year when I was looking.

 

[padgett]

a) was responding to John's Wednesday post about H-bodies.

b) AFAIK the NorthStar line really started with the Oldsmobile Quad-4 in the '80s that influenced the NorthStar DOHC-V8 design of 1993. Over the years I have lost track of how many times the head replacement procedure and bolt torque order has changed. For a while it seemed like a TSB on hw to tighten the head bolts came out monthly. One I liked best was the 4.0 "Shortstar" used in the Olds Intrigue and some Cobras. 

c) Remember Duesey's being $600 cars and people complaining about the lack of parts. I suspect that 3D printing is going to change how we think about parts.

d) Looked at a few Allantes over the years but just too many things I didn't like (particularly the steering wheels). I prefer my Reatta 'vert.

 

All that said I expect that sometime in the next few years if nothing major goes rong, I'll have an XLR of some sort. Since having a few SLKs I just prefer a retractable and also prefer GM but just do not care for the G6. I have a service manual and a dongle with Tech2Win in wait. Besides if something seriously was bad with the NorthStar, suspect I'd swap in a 3.6 304 hp 7,000 rpm DI DOHC-6 & six speed automagic.

 

ps I have a Honda

[60FlatTop]

When I was a kid a lot of people were just brimming over with stories about the problems with this or that car, what you should and shouldn't do, and stories repeated so many times the teller thought it actually happened to them. I figured out pretty quick that I needed to buy tools and read books. I have been quite independent about what cars I bought and servicing them. Collectibility of a car relies on one question, "Do I want it?"

 

About 15 years ago I bought my first of two Jaguar XJS V12's. Not a brilliant idea, even to me at the time. But I had to have it. The early 2000's. The last XJS 12 was about ten years old. During that time owners had experienced every problem, resolved them, and even learned how to avoid them. And it was all published and shared online: http://www.nettally.com/palmk/jaguar.html

Discovering the Kirby Palm book opened up the path to all the online pooled experience for anything I wanted. Even an XLR and how to build a bullet proof Northstar.

 

I have the information, though some needs sorting from time to time, and collectibility is at my discretion.

Edited February 17, 2019 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[padgett]

Know what you mean. I still have my copies of "The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine", "How to Keep Your Volkswagen Alive", and "The Complete Official Jaguar "E"" plus many many service and parts manuals that would have to be measured in board-feet.

 

Most of my XLR information is in .pdf form except for some that requires VMWare.

 

Have gone on the hunt for a nice NA XLR twice now and wound up buying other cars. I suspect the third time will be the charm.

[Kevin M]

I think has the potential to be a collectable car but probably the same way a Reatta and Allanté is. Only to those who know what they are. 

[39BuickEight]

I do think the XLR-V cars will be “collectible” faster.  They were $110k figure cars, produced in lower numbers, and had 440HP (compared to 320).  It will still take some time.  I liken these the appeal to the Corvette C4 ZR-1’s.  They are also slow to turn on in terms of the collectible car world, but they are slowly getting there after nearly 30 years.

[Pfeil]

"A step by step manual for the complete idiot" You would have to be a Idiot to follow that book. The only thing it's good for is the hilarious illustrations.

A novice idiot illustration ;

Edited February 17, 2019 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[padgett]

Agree about "collectivity", the -V will probably always be worth more. However I buy my cars to drive and maintain myself. Think of the XLR as a replacement for my SLK. I just like retractables and prefer GM.

 

Over the years I have had many odd cars some that have since commanded six figure prices. Have had some more mainstream family and tow cars but personal cars are usually fast two doors and roadsters. Just was fortunate to grow up in an environment rich in furrin and exotic cars (today was passed by a Lambo, an F-type Jag was behind me in a gas station, and was the usual gaggle of Mercs).

 

Unfortunately was looking at my Judge on Hagerty and was reminded of a column Henry Manney wrote a number of years ago about his Cobra becoming "too valuable to drive". Sad.

[60FlatTop]

11 hours ago, Pfeil said:

A step by step manual for the complete idiot"

 

A guy told me he had half a mind to write a manual for idiots. I agreed he was qualified.