Lessening interest in antique furniture--Parallels to antique cars?

[1937hd45]

Young people won't be collecting things for many reasons, most things of their youth were thrown  away as soon as they out grew them. If they do remember them the cost of paying off college debt will not allow them to buy back the memory years from now. This is great for people like me that take these items off the free table at the town dump and eBay them, sorry transfer station. Furniture no matter how nice and old it may be is a risk to buy or pick up for free, NOBODY will pay shipping costs on anything larger than an end table. The eight foot 1890's  dining room sideboard I did get for free will get a steel plate top and see used as a fabrication table in my garage, it fits in nicely with the circa 1915 carriage house look of things.

[Xander Wildeisen]

So being a custom car guy at heart, I have to ask. Has there ever been a market for custom antiques? I am pretty green when it comes to antique furniture, and i am sure that there are the Duesenbergs of the furniture world. But the more common stuff.(what ever that is) Would there be a market for people to redesign or build custom/modern furniture out of some of it? Old barn wood, and weathered stuff is grabbed up around here. I see a lot of old sewing machines turned into end tables.

[1937hd45]

3 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

So being a custom car guy at heart, I have to ask. Has there ever been a market for custom antiques? I am pretty green when it comes to antique furniture, and i am sure that there are the Duesenbergs of the furniture world. But the more common stuff.(what ever that is) Would there be a market for people to redesign or build custom/modern furniture out of some of it? Old barn wood, and weathered stuff is grabbed up around here. I see a lot of old sewing machines turned into end tables.

Just like "Modern Art" you have to con the public into believing that crap has value, it worked with the tomato soup can for Warhole, your results may vary. Bob

[W_Higgins]

Furniture and cars both took a hit when the market crashed.  Neither have totally recovered but furniture took the worst of it.  When you have people funding their hobbies with their home equity loans and borrowing against artificially inflated net worth, the result is going to be ugly when the market decides to correct itself.  I think a lot of what helped the car hobby is there is international competition for American cars.  People gripe about all the cars that still go to Europe.  If trade were strictly limited to the Continental U.S., then we would probably see lower prices and everybody would be griping about that.  There are always winners and losers depending on how people position themselves.  We benefited by buying a house after the market crash for about 65% of what it sold for before the crash.  For our property taxes the county still wants to calculate our assessed value using pre-crash market data as their standard.  How convenient.  What hasn't changed is everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too!  

[Joe in Canada]

Now not to get political but you hear about the middle class family have not had a net income raise in over a decade after free trade came in to effect. Plus the manufacturing jobs that left the country. How has this affected the car hobby plus raise a family. Is Donald Trumps plan to make America great again going to have any impact on the old car interest and affordability putting people back to work?????? 

Yes I know this is a loaded question.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[hidden_hunter]

12 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

At a Christmas party recently I ran into an old clock dealer.

I had bought a couple of antique clocks from him

but hadn't seen him in several years.

 

He said that the bottom fell out of the antique furniture market,

including clocks.  Young couples no longer have any interest

in antiques.  The bottom fell out during the 2008 financial panic

and the market hasn't recovered.

 

He said some clocks that formerly sold for $3000 were now

selling in the hundreds.  He gave examples of 80% declines.

 

The rarer pieces and higher end have of the market held up somewhat better:

 a tall-case clock which he bought for $16,000 he later sold for $7000--

less than half of what he paid.  "Only" a 56% decline was "better"?

"Antiques were supposed to be a good investment," he

and his wife said, "But at least we got enjoyment out of them."

 

I had no idea that antiques had come down so much.

My thought immediately turned to antique cars and their future.

We see the youngest adults--most of them-- having little interest.

Cars will always be around, but will prices fall for many of them?

Have forum members witnessed declines in other types of antiques?

 

I'm under 30 and one of my most prized possessions is a 1860's marine chronometer, so there is still interest out there but what I've seen is more that you have to set realistic pricing on stuff. People wanting top dollar for fairly common stuff in poor condition is a hard sell.

 

Mind you, my passion is technology regardless of era - so I find things fascinating about how problems were solved back in the day (e.g old cars) but I still enjoy using all the latest technology ( and it pays for my old stuff!)

Edited December 6, 2016 by hidden_hunter (see edit history)

[Joe in Canada]

I also have an interest in early outboard & inboard motors. Found a 3 Hp copper jacket last week and I do not think they have dropped in price.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

17 hours ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

So being a custom car guy at heart, I have to ask. Has there ever been a market for custom antiques? I am pretty green when it comes to antique furniture, and i am sure that there are the Duesenbergs of the furniture world. But the more common stuff.(what ever that is) Would there be a market for people to redesign or build custom/modern furniture out of some of it? Old barn wood, and weathered stuff is grabbed up around here. I see a lot of old sewing machines turned into end tables.

Xander, I'm probably not the best guy to respond to your question, but I do know that customization does thrive in the used furniture business in the form of updating (customizing) distressed and otherwise low value items and distressing them still further to arrive at the "Shabby Chic" look or painting them in imaginative ways. A shabby chic item will be made to look like it has seen years of wear and use. Layers of different paint can be applied and wiped or sanded away to add decades to the look of a piece. The further distressing that I mentioned is the genuine and deliberate damaging of an item by gouging and battering it with hammers, chains and whatever is available. Old varnished furniture has also found new life with fresh paint instead of varnish. Painted furniture can take on whole new looks as the artist uses two or more colors to highlight characteristics and lines in the piece. Figural painting and other motifs such as "rosemaling" can transform a low value chest, chair or bookshelf into a unique and valuable piece. You, who have the talent and great taste to modify vehicles with out bringing condemnation upon yourself, would probably be quite impressed by how a simple little table can be transformed into a dazzling work of art by some gifted people. Rosemaling, which is a very traditional Norwegian art form, is a very specific type of furniture painting and likely not to everyone's taste. It is, nevertheless, interesting and, if you have the time, go to Google Images and take a look. You may also find a Google Images search of "painted furniture" interesting.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

In a topic here about a year ago, I referred to

a Wall Street Journal article that said the toy-train hobby

is aging, and suffering from a lack of younger newcomers.

 

Wow, the 20-year-olds don't know what they are missing!

Electronic items are outdated in 5 years;  

antique cars and other items can be enjoyed throughout a lifetime.

[46 woodie]

John, every year about this time my two grand daughters and I set up my Lionel trains from 1954. What a product, 62 years old and still running great. The engine must weigh five pounds. They simply don't make toys like that any more. The only upgrade I did was to purchase all the new type track that Lionel offers and we run the heck out of it!

[avgwarhawk]

11 hours ago, hidden_hunter said:

 

I'm under 30 and one of my most prized possessions is a 1860's marine chronometer, so there is still interest out there but what I've seen is more that you have to set realistic pricing on stuff. People wanting top dollar for fairly common stuff in poor condition is a hard sell.

 

Mind you, my passion is technology regardless of era - so I find things fascinating about how problems were solved back in the day (e.g old cars) but I still enjoy using all the latest technology ( and it pays for my old stuff!)

 You qualified the marine chronometer for me in your second short paragraph.  I read your first sentence thinking your liking of the chronometer  is the design, function, engineering and how it works.  For me, the mechanism behind certain items of old is really fascinating much like your chronometer.       

Edited December 6, 2016 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

28 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

In a topic here about a year ago, I referred to

a Wall Street Journal article that said the toy-train hobby

is aging, and suffering from a lack of younger newcomers.

 

Wow, the 20-year-olds don't know what they are missing!

Electronic items are outdated in 5 years;  

antique cars and other items can be enjoyed throughout a lifetime.

 

 

Thomas the Tank Train keeps the toy train alive. I have a nephew that first witnessing of a toy train was my home last year.  I have  a HO  train garden.  I was running an articulated 12 wheel drive Booth Kelly logger.  From that moment on my nephew because a lunatic for Thomas the Tank Train.   He is absolutely fascinated with toy trains.  I think for some being introduced to toys of the past is all it takes for them to grow an interest in the toy/hobby.        

[ch1929]

My Grandson loves Thomas the Tank Engine and operates it very well for a three year old. I let him work in the garage with me when I am working my cars. He loves to "help"!  Hopefully he will get the old car bug and help keep this hobby alive.

[joe_padavano]

17 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

 

   

It as ruined a market for some.  Ref the clock seller story in this thread.  Think about this...I have a widget.  I have never seen another widget like it.  It is a rare widget then. Very expensive as a result.   Then a new means of selling items appears.  Soon widget after widget appear on this new selling site.  My once rare widget I have never seen before is not so rare after all.   My once very valuable widget is not worth much and now ruined for me.   Let's take it a bit further, Ebay has opened doors to less than honest people as well.  

 

      

Sorry, no. Ebay didn't "ruin" it for you. You made a valuation based on incorrect info. The widget was never rare. You just thought it was based on incorrect information. I learned this concept in Econ 101 in the 1970s. It isn't new nor is it the fault of ebay or the internet. Here's another example. One respected vendor of repro Oldsmobile parts sells motor mounts at ten times the going rate. They are exactly the same Chinesuim part in the same box as the inexpensive ones on RockAuto.  Has RA "ruined" the value of this item, or simply demonstrated that it was grossly overpriced?

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[mercer09]

think what his $800,000 may buy 30 years from now!

 

a snickers bar??????

[28 Chrysler]

My 31 year old kid will only lease or rent almost everything. Anything that's 3 -4 years old should be tossed.

We have family musical instruments that  go back to 1722 that we will most likely just donate.

[avgwarhawk]

1 hour ago, joe_padavano said:

Sorry, no. Ebay didn't "ruin" it for you. You made a valuation based on incorrect info. The widget was never rare. You just thought it was based on incorrect information. I learned this concept in Econ 101 in the 1970s. It isn't new nor is it the fault of ebay or the internet. Here's another example. One respected vendor of repro Oldsmobile parts sells motor mounts at ten times the going rate. They are exactly the same Chinesuim part in the same box as the inexpensive ones on RockAuto.  Has RA "ruined" the value of this item, or simply demonstrated that it was grossly overpriced?

 

Joe, I did not say Ebay ruined anything for me. I said "for some." The widget is just my example.   You are missing the point perhaps or I'm not explaining it well.  If an items is a one of a kind often it is called "rare" and has a price tag to match.  Some take advantage as a result because others do believe it truly is one of a kind.  The "for some" ruined by Ebay are those that portend to state an item is very rare and the price tag will match only to find others are posting the exact same items on Ebay.  Their once "rare expensive item" is found not to be rare after all.    The pricing drops as a result. Flooded market, price drop.  Supply and demand.     The idea is that Ebay and RA ruined the crazy price market prices by demonstrating that some items are not as rare as the seller likes to portray.  For those that look to deceive are now up against the information age (ebay, internet) and that has ruined it for them(and their wallets).  

Edited December 6, 2016 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

1 hour ago, ch1929 said:

My Grandson loves Thomas the Tank Engine and operates it very well for a three year old. I let him work in the garage with me when I am working my cars. He loves to "help"!  Hopefully he will get the old car bug and help keep this hobby alive.

 

 

He has the bug already!  You and your grandson are the definition of "passing it down from generation to generation."   

[John_S_in_Penna]

"Think what his $800,000 may buy 30 years from now!

A snickers bar??????"

 

---That's why, when one invests, he chooses instruments

whose return will surpass the rate of inflation.

A 75-cent candy bar, at an expected and typical 3% annual

rate of inflation, would be two and a half times its

current price in 30 years--about $2 under normal economic

conditions.  The formula is F = P(1+i)^n = ($0.75)(1.03)^30 = $1.82,

where the carat represents exponentiation,

P designates present value, F represents future value,

"i" the rate of increase per period, and "n" the number of periods.

 

Other investments, though they are riskier and they may fluctuate,

may return an average annual return of 10%, an outstanding one 12%. 

Here's an example of taking $100,000 to invest for the long term:

($100,000)(1.10)^30 =  $1,744,940.

($100,000)(1.12)^30 =  $2,995,992.

So we see that this investment returned 17-fold to 30-fold over 30 years.

I was purposely being conservative in my claims.

 

As they say, check with a good investment advisor;

I say, appreciate ecomonics!  Saving money, avoiding instant

gratification--in whatever amount--may help build anyone's car collection. 

Edited December 6, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, avgwarhawk said:

Joe, I did not say Ebay ruined anything for me. I said "for some."

 

The only people who found things "ruined" were those overcharging for items that were not rare after all. 

[avgwarhawk]

56 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

 

The only people who found things "ruined" were those overcharging for items that were not rare after all. 

 

That is what I was trying to convey. 

[Guest Grumpy's Auto Shop]

The sad truth is that anything branded 'Atari' is now an antique.

[auburnseeker]

The items can still be rare and there may just happen to be a run of them at that time on ebay. (I know of some parts for my cars that I passed on that I didn't really need and seemed to be plentiful at that time suddenly I had to pay alot more for when I actually needed them because those cheap examples were long gone.)  They just may not sell for much even though they are rare because only 2 people want the 3 items that are available.  

I see it with parts I sell because I auction off 99 percent of what I buy.  $10 this week , $75 the next week and $5  the following.  Just depends on who's looking  when you list. 

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, auburnseeker said:

The items can still be rare and there may just happen to be a run of them at that time on ebay. (I know of some parts for my cars that I passed on that I didn't really need and seemed to be plentiful at that time suddenly I had to pay alot more for when I actually needed them because those cheap examples were long gone.) 

 

This is the truth.  You only get a real idea of rarity by continually watching for the same thing for years.   I can remember 3 copies of the identical item showing up on eBay within a few months of each other and then not showing up again for the next 10 years.  Those 3 gave me a distorted picture.

[Joe in Canada]

I am a swap meet kind of guy and enjoy walking the swap meet almost as much as the find. I like to hold it in my hand and look at the part as well as the thousands of other parts there is to look at in the different vending stalls. Just like golf the feel of the turf under your feet and the fresh air. Some how sitting behind my desk looking at a computer screen does not quite cut it. Many venders are moving into the computer age with sites like EBay and leaving the swap meets with vacant spots. But if this is what it takes to get younger folks I guess it will have to do. 

[Restorer32]

I recently bought a pair of very rare NOS 1932 Packard horns that I had been searching fo,r for, no exaggeration, 37 years. Never in that time had I seen even 1 for sale at any price. The pair I bought, at a ridiculously low price, showed up on an internet auction I was steered to by these forums.

[mercer09]

"Think what his $800,000 may buy 30 years from now!

A snickers bar??????"

 

---That's why, when one invests, he chooses instruments

whose return will surpass the rate of inflation.

A 75-cent candy bar, at an expected and typical 3% annual

rate of inflation, would be two and a half times its

current price in 30 years--about $2 under normal economic

conditions.  The formula is F = P(1+i)^n = ($0.75)(1.03)^30 = $1.82,

where the carat represents exponentiation,

P designates present value, F represents future value,

"i" the rate of increase per period, and "n" the number of periods.

 

Other investments, though they are riskier and they may fluctuate,

may return an average annual return of 10%, an outstanding one 12%. 

Here's an example of taking $100,000 to invest for the long term:

($100,000)(1.10)^30 =  $1,744,940.

($100,000)(1.12)^30 =  $2,995,992.

So we see that this investment returned 17-fold to 30-fold over 30 years.

I was purposely being conservative in my claims.

 

As they say, check with a good investment advisor;

I say, appreciate ecomonics!  Saving money, avoiding instant

gratification--in whatever amount--may help build anyone's car collection. 

 

John, I was just being facetious, but truthfully in the economy we live in today, all of the calculations done, may not be worth a penny in 30 years.

not being political, all countries today are over extended and who knows what will come in the future. Germany went through my silly example in WW1

and it certainly could happen again. Economics is nothing more then a theory, that we use history on to try and bring about a conclusion.

It is all merely a guess in the end.

 

ps Bernie, nice desk that you gave away! always loved the roll tops. They seemed to become obsolete at the advent of the computer............

cumbersome.

 

[Restorer32]

Things do change. Remember ca. 1986 when it was no big deal to get 12% interest on your money. Dad had triple tax free municipal bonds paying 17%. As recently as 2000 we had money in a local bank cd paying 10%.

[60FlatTop]

The future belongs to the people willing to buy capital assets and  provide users with the services the assets provide. Check out computer terminal kiosks. We have them in airports, but they are common in South America, the Philippines, and other countries we may follow on an economic path. Kind of like the recent posting for "renting your old car".

 

In an investment evaluation like the candy bar one above, today's accountant adjusts a mean median lifespan to capital items. How long is a car supposed to last? If my 1960 Buick had a lifespan of 15 years it is worth zero today and needs replacement. Net present value calculations are dangerous at times. I recently was on a job that saw buildings and their equipment devalued based on life expectancy and repairs greatly inflated. Just tear down the 1880's firehouse- needs new. $0.75 candy bar 6 months old- uneaten, zero value.

 

That's how to tell the end of an age of consumption. (no pun, please)

Bernie

[Restorer32]

I was around for the dawning of the age of Aquarius. I doubt I will be around for end of the age of consumption, the reality TV created craze for "tiny houses" not withstanding.

[auburnseeker]

I've seen alot of articles where being successful and having things is now considered bad.  A certain segment of the population wants every body to strive for mediocrity. (probably because they don't want or can't achieve any more than that)  I want to ac cell.

I have some nice cars because I like them.  I have a nice house because it's what I want. I have to look at it and live in it (I even run my business out of it) so why come home every day and say wish I didn't have to live in this dump.  We live very conservatively otherwise and my wife is pretty tight with the books.  That's how we do it.   I even drive a 10 year old truck that I  paid for cash for.

Until people are not demonized for being successful and having/ wanting nice things you may continue to see the downward trend. 

[R Walling]

 I have an old antique sign that was used to repair the floor of a car that I was offered $450 for it.

 I will enjoy it on the wall until I need a piece of metal to repair a floor with.

 New metal probably will be worth more than the sign at that time.

[60FlatTop]

To  post #71, We hear a lot of attacks on the wealthy. Wealth is having something left over after your basic needs are met. From what I see, basic needs are met by a increased minimum wages plus a government subsidy. I guess that pretty much defines "the wealthy", not the idle rich, but the taxable. Robin Hood ain't going to stand on my porch with packages this month. But I think he was eyeing the fact we drove a BUICK through the woods to Grandma's house for Thanksgiving.

 

Yeah, we avoid the woods unless it's necessary.

Bernie

[mercer09]

I've seen alot of articles where being successful and having things is now considered bad.  A certain segment of the population wants every body to strive for mediocrity. (probably because they don't want or can't achieve any more than that)  I want to ac cell.

I have some nice cars because I like them.  I have a nice house because it's what I want. I have to look at it and live in it (I even run my business out of it) so why come home every day and say wish I didn't have to live in this dump.  We live very conservatively otherwise and my wife is pretty tight with the books.  That's how we do it.   I even drive a 10 year old truck that I  paid for cash for.

Until people are not demonized for being successful and having/ wanting nice things you may continue to see the downward trend. 

 

couldnt agree more.................... can you say Bolshevik?!

[1912Staver]

Here in the major Canadian cities things are a theatre of  the absurd. Shelter prices; purchase or rent, and general cost of living has risen many times faster than wages.  Canadians have in the last 15 years gone from a nation of savers to a nation of the worryingly in debt. 

  The trouble is vast sums of cash from other nations have inflated our housing market to the point that nearly anyone who makes their living in Canada is pushed way down or out of the market. Rents are high and rentals very hard to find.  Canada's economy was sputtering and various levels of government chose to turn a blind eye to the influx of capital from primarily Asia but also other regions of the world.  Land values spiked, so a group of Canadians did well . Construction boomed , so another sector did well and so on.  But wages never moved much , and property prices went from a level where most middle class households could be homeowners to a condition where a single family home now costs millions.

  No shortage of luxury cars on the streets , but generally driven by someone that is a recent addition to Canada. And many younger people face a very troubling economic future. And yes, there is a bit of resentment shown to these 100's of thousands of very visible "successful" people.  For they display a measure of success that is nearly impossible for a Canadian to achieve regardless of education or personal effort.

 The newcomers like our School's and Universities,our Healthcare,our clean ,polite law abiding culture. But they often take great pains to insulate themselves from Canadian taxes. Which is after all what pays for a lot of the things they come here , and send their children here for. Various levels of government are starting to pay attention the situation and investigate how a University student with no declared income owns a multi million $  estate , but for many Canadians it is indeed a lost decade.

Greg in Canada

Edited December 7, 2016 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Terry Bond]

Here's the change left over from my earlier 10 cent's worth - first, I've noticed that everything on ebay is rare.

secondly I've observed that just about anyone can have money, but you gotta be lucky to have stuff.

enjoy collecting what you like and don't worry bout it.

don't forget to bring me more old spark pugs at Hershey!

[hidden_hunter]

3 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Here in the major Canadian cities things are a theatre of  the absurd. Shelter prices; purchase or rent, and general cost of living has risen many times faster than wages.  Canadians have in the last 15 years gone from a nation of savers to a nation of the worryingly in debt. 

  The trouble is vast sums of cash from other nations have inflated our housing market to the point that nearly anyone who makes their living in Canada is pushed way down or out of the market. Rents are high and rentals very hard to find.  Canada's economy was sputtering and various levels of government chose to turn a blind eye to the influx of capital from primarily Asia but also other regions of the world.  Land values spiked, so a group of Canadians did well . Construction boomed , so another sector did well and so on.  But wages never moved much , and property prices went from a level where most middle class households could be homeowners to a condition where a single family home now costs millions.

  No shortage of luxury cars on the streets , but generally driven by someone that is a recent addition to Canada. And many younger people face a very troubling economic future. And yes, there is a bit of resentment shown to these 100's of thousands of very visible "successful" people.  For they display a measure of success that is nearly impossible for a Canadian to achieve regardless of education or personal effort.

 The newcomers like our School's and Universities,our Healthcare,our clean ,polite law abiding culture. But they often take great pains to insulate themselves from Canadian taxes. Which is after all what pays for a lot of the things they come here , and send their children here for. Various levels of government are starting to pay attention the situation and investigate how a University student with no declared income owns a multi million $  estate , but for many Canadians it is indeed a lost decade.

Greg in Canada

 

We had exactly the same thing happen here, and our prices are stuffed - Melbourne and Sydney are nearly at $1m average price for a home (with in 10 miles, a largish block is going to set you back at least $1.5m because you're competing with someone that's going to pull it down and put some ugly boxes on it)

[Joe in Canada]

3 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Here in the major Canadian cities things are a theatre of  the absurd. Shelter prices; purchase or rent, and general cost of living has risen many times faster than wages.  Canadians have in the last 15 years gone from a nation of savers to a nation of the worryingly in debt. 

  The trouble is vast sums of cash from other nations have inflated our housing market to the point that nearly anyone who makes their living in Canada is pushed way down or out of the market. Rents are high and rentals very hard to find.  Canada's economy was sputtering and various levels of government chose to turn a blind eye to the influx of capital from primarily Asia but also other regions of the world.  Land values spiked, so a group of Canadians did well . Construction boomed , so another sector did well and so on.  But wages never moved much , and property prices went from a level where most middle class households could be homeowners to a condition where a single family home now costs millions.

  No shortage of luxury cars on the streets , but generally driven by someone that is a recent addition to Canada. And many younger people face a very troubling economic future. And yes, there is a bit of resentment shown to these 100's of thousands of very visible "successful" people.  For they display a measure of success that is nearly impossible for a Canadian to achieve regardless of education or personal effort.

 The newcomers like our School's and Universities,our Healthcare,our clean ,polite law abiding culture. But they often take great pains to insulate themselves from Canadian taxes. Which is after all what pays for a lot of the things they come here , and send their children here for. Various levels of government are starting to pay attention the situation and investigate how a University student with no declared income owns a multi million $  estate , but for many Canadians it is indeed a lost decade.

Greg in Canada

Here is one reason why younger people will not be buying antique cars in Canada when housing spikes 327%.  What comes first is raising a young family ...........   http://www.blogto.com/city/2016/12/toronto-neighbourhood-biggest-spike-house-prices-15-years/ 

Edited December 7, 2016 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Here I  thought the Canadian land purchases were for an alternate path in case the Keystone pipeline doesn't go through. All the time I figured the pipeline was infrastructure for a water line to drain the Great Lakes to west coast seaports. Silly me.

Bernie

[Guest Grumpy's Auto Shop]

2 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Here I  thought the Canadian land purchases were for an alternate path in case the Keystone pipeline doesn't go through. All the time I figured the pipeline was infrastructure for a water line to drain the Great Lakes to west coast seaports. Silly me.

Bernie

Californians don't want 'fire-water'?