A cautionary tale for anyone buying a "restored" vehicle

[Barry Wolk]

I'm completely disgusted with the lowlife that "restored" my '41 Ford pickup.

There must have been a shortage of cotter pins and torque wrenches as pins are missing, everywhere, and most everything else is barely finger tight.

Wouldn't you put a cotter pin in a brake clevis?

If you added leaves to the front spring, wouldn't you use longer spring bolts?

I found the pitman arm barely held on by two threads of the castle nut. Again, no cotter pin.

The tie-rod end is likely the wrong one as the stud is not long enough to protrude through the castle nut.

This bolt holds a bracket that supports both front fenders. It's kind of a critical part. Wouldn't you replace a bolt that's lost 50% of its thickness to rust?

I post this as a cautionary tale for anyone buying anything used. I've only driven this 1941 Ford pickup 50 miles since I acquired it. Had I driven much further I might not have survived. This could happen with any car. I've had to "shake out" other restorations, but I've never seen such flagrant disregard for the owner or next buyer. I know that it's "let the buyer beware", but this is disgusting.

[MCHinson]

Did you inspect the truck before you bought it? Those seem like things that you would find with a minor inspection of the truck. I know that I have bought a vehicle sight unseen on Ebay, but was careful to spend only what I thought it would be worth if it was the worst case scenario with what I could see in the photos. In one case it was pretty close to the worst case scenario, so I was happy that I had not spent any more than I did.

[Barry Wolk]

No, I did not. I relied on the opinion of a well-known broker who told me the vehicle had been mechanically restored. That's my point. That reliance seems to be pretty worthless.

[MCHinson]

Obviously you have to be careful who you trust. I always trust myself to inspect a potential purpose, sometimes I trust a few other select individuals. You do have to be careful who you trust.

[West Peterson]

It is my experience that what you have found is common, both in the quality of the restoration, and the quality of your inspector. I've heard many stories of people who even had their friends inspect a car, and were still completely disappointed when the car arrived.

It's the nature of the old car hobby. There's always something left to be done to a restoration... they're never really ever done.

[West Peterson]

I was told that this car's body work was completely done and was ready for paint. I was also told the front end was completely rebuilt.

[joe_padavano]

This is sadly all too common, which is why I won't buy a restored vehicle. It is NOT possible to make money on a restoration when done properly, due to the incredible amount of labor hours required. Anyone claiming to restore vehicles and then sell them must be cutting corners to make any money at all.

I've also found that most sellers' definition of "rust free" only means "rust not currently visible".

Give me an unrestored car any day.

[John Byrd]

Barry, as an addition to your warning, we bought a "pro-built" Ford street rod pick-up a couple years ago, and everything on the passenger side only was unfinished !! No cotters, loose bolts, missing bolts, loose wheel bearings, etc !! It was astonishing what the person or persons had NOT done. The drivers side was completely as it should have been ! Oh, the engine had too short a set of pushrods and when they couldn't adjust the hydraulic lifters "quiet", they had added Copper washers under some of the stud nuts and springs ! Guess where most of the soft copper was ! The poor guy that had the truck built didn't have a clue about any of this, and the reason we got it was it was a gorgeous build, cheap, and only a mile from the house, so we made it home carefully but safely and finished it up properly. Yep, check anyone's work, especially if they have been on some structural or control components. I'd love to know the truth of the one-sided work quality though,You know, fly on the wall kinda thing, ha !

[Steve Moskowitz]

We have all been there, done that. I even was my own worse inspector once as I got too excited and did not take the time to thoroughly inspect the car...the usual buyers remorse came later.

[Guest billybird]

Steve: ditto for me. I once bought a car that had been painted just a week before. What bothers me is I KNEW better than that. If a car has been painted for say five years and still looks good chances are you are fairly safe. Anyway; buyer's remorse in just a few short months. Barry: I'm just glad you caught these issues when you did. A missing brake clevis cotter and a barely threaded pitman arm could have been major safety issues.

[plymouthcranbrook]

Wow. I feel really lucky that both cars I purchased sight unseen on E-Bay have proved to be as good or even a little bit better than advertised. I did pick them both up and other than a little bit of rust where I did not expect it on my 52 Plymouth I have been pleased with both. Of course as MCHinson said, I did not bid more than I was sure they were worth.

[Bhigdog]

This is a perfect illustration of why I buy KNOWN scrap to begin with but pay a KNOWN scrap price. That said, it kind of reminds me of the "rust free" pair of rear quarters I had shipped up from Texas at great expense...................Bob

Edited March 12, 2013 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

I hired a professional inspection service when I bought my last car to verify the numbers which had pretty much already been verified and to check to be sure the body on the Corvette was a no hit body. 375.00 later I had a very poorly written report verifying it was all numbers matching and a no hit body with all original bonding seems. Well the shipper pulled the car out of the enclosed trailer and as it turned the corner to drive into the garage I could see the front fender has been repaired below the headlight.

In all honesty it was a very bright day with snow on the ground and the the car has a very glassy black finish so it hides nothing. The paint is 35 years old so any filler used has stabalized and probably the only reason the repair was noticable.

Ironically I found another much more thurough/professional appraisal inspection done 10 years ago on the car complete with photographs and they too said it was a no hit body. The repair is at the bonding seem so it's correctly done.

I was even asked by the inspector what to concentrate on. I said body and numbers the rest I could determine from the 100 plus photos I received of the undercarriage in 6 inch increments taken in a well lit showroom.

It goes to show you even the pros may not be all that professional or thurough.

My Cord was a different story. The owner said it needed everything and was priced accordingly so I sent a friend to look at it as it was in CA and I was in NY. I told him make sure the rest of the car is there as I only had one picture taken dead on from the front and look to see if the top and dash are there as well as it still has floors. He knows little about cars and sent me a handful of photos from his phone. I bought it that night after receiving the photos via email. Some cars are well worth the risk but as mentioned we have all seen those restored cars that are far from finished and just short of tacked together.

I bought a 49 Mercury that way last year as well. Looked good from the few kind of vague photos. I sent a friend. (this one is a serious old car nut) to verify the cars condition. Well Somehow we are still friends for now but that put a strain on the friendship. After a 1/2 hour on the phone with him while checking the car over telling him everything to look for, he missed almost everything he could and then some.

It really irritated me when the owner said I can put it up on a lift so you can get a good look at the underneath. Never refuse that offer ever!!!!! My friend said no that's OK.

Well I showed him how to inspect a car when he came up for a visit and I can honestly say until I pointed every blatant issue out he thought it was great. Ironically I'm 38 and I think he is 55.

I know of one person that I can trust to look a car over besides myself and that's my wife ironically. She's not interested in cars at all but can spot repaints body work and knows how to check the little details that get missed to verify the condition the car was in before the "restoration"

It's funny when she comes home and tells me about a car she saw. I can grille her on the details and know wether or not it's worth a look. I guess I trained her pretty well.

I think some people just see old cars with rose colored glasses that erase the problems or blur them over a bit.

[NTX5467]

In many ways, the pictures and comments about "what was missed" really don't surprise me, unfortunately. I know that we WANT to take the owner's/seller's word on things, even with many pictures to look at, but it's just like buying any other type of used vehicle. Just because it's a "restored" or "collector vehicle" makes no real difference.

It is also an observation that many restoration shops might do well with cosmetics (paint, upholstery, etc.), but seem to have a very limited knowledge of mechanical stuff Mechanical stuff which they farm out to others . . . which is another cause for concern -- the resto shop might not know a "good job" even if they saw it.

I started to see the term "Professionally-built" surface in car ads several decades ago. To me, what that means is that "a shop" did the work and somebody paid "a shop" to do it, usually supplying receipts of the work with the vehicle's documentation. But that does NOT mean "a shop" knew how to correctly work on the older vehicle . . . in many cases. When I see that phrase now, it decodes as "The owner didn't know how to or did not want to do the work themselves, paying somebody else to do it, usually taking somebody else's word about how good the shop might be."

I also might add, from observations, that even vehicles purchased from the highest-status auction company's auction are not immune from flaky workmanship or poorly-tuned engines! The ONE good thing about that particular auction company is that they usually list what the owner has done to a vehicle in the vehicle's description on their website. PM me for more information, if desired.

As always . . . buyer beware . . . especially in the vintage vehicle hobby.

For quite some time, I've been of the orientation that I'd rather purchase an unmolested original vehicle than one that's been "restored" already. As mentioned, older restorations can be better than newer ones. But as I age and such, I would be more inclined to purchase a car that really got the juices flowing . . . IF it was as it needed to be . . . but I'd still not really put miles on it until I'd been "all over it" myself . . . just like it was any other "used car" of unknown history.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Trulyvintage]

Any vehicle can have problems ...

That is why some states require annual safety inspections by certified mechanics before registration renewal

Jim

[nickelroadster]

I have seen some shady things done to cars but never anything quite like that. It seems like you should be able to sue the pants off of someone, especially the rather strong safety considerations. This is more than just cutting corners, it is blatant disregard for someone else's life! It hardly seems to have made the restoration any cheaper. I once saw a Jeep CJ with the frame rails rusted out that had been expertly repaired with treated lumber (at least they used treated umber). Now that was also blatantly unsafe but at least you could see that they saved a whole lot of money. I think that the restorer also drove his own vehicle for a while. Barry, let us know what else you find as I am sure there are some thing that you have not discovered yet. I would like to hear about your efforts to rectify that abomination of a restoration.

[Rusty_OToole]

I thought "rust free" meant they weren't charging extra for it.

[Bhigdog]

I thought "rust free" meant they weren't charging extra for it.

I guess that's what they thought too. ................................Bob

[R W Burgess]

I have had a request to return this thread back to the General Forum. It had gotten out of hand and with the constant deletions required I gave up on it. After hearing the request plus further thought it has reinstated.

Wayne

[keiser31]

Without getting on my back and inspecting it myself, I won't buy a vehicle.

[nickelroadster]

Mr. Burgess,

What got out of hand in the postings? It seems to me that the only thing that got out of hand was the so called restoration. Most everything that was posted was seconded by the following posters. Was anybody "offended" by anything that was said? I don't see how. I didn't see any violent arguments about whether or not this was a credible restoration or not. ??? Was this by any chance done on one of the reality shows?

[Chris Bamford]

I have had a request to return this thread...it has reinstated.

And thank you for that.

Barry, I would be most interested in the broker's response when he was advised of the issues...

[Rooney3100]

If at all possible & you have the money, Get a good original vehicle to start with and do a complete restore yourself, I did most of the work on my truck and had good people do the mechanics on the driveline & Body work & seat reapolstered, all the rest I did myself, I searched for as many NOS parts as possible, cleaned up the original parts and documented the restoration with lots of pictures.......I would not do another one thou (Because of the time & Money at this time in my life), but I'm very proud of what I accomplished on my 56 Chevy Truck restoration, I tried very hard to cover every detail and assembled it as close as possible with the GM 1956 Assembly manual, the only problem is I don't want to drive it at this time, it needs to go to shows for awhile and then when I retire it will get driven, I used to have a 1957 GMC shortbox that I drove in Arizona back in the early 80's and had lots of fun with it, I should have never sold it.

I live in a small town and I was still able to get this done, alot of my parts went out of state to get completed by professionals.

So if I were going to buy a restored Vehicle, I would want it done to my standards of a very good restoration, especially when you are spending the cost of money these day's restoring a vehicle......ROONEY3100

Edited March 16, 2013 by Rooney3100 (see edit history)

[Barry Wolk]

Thanks for your input.

[Barry Wolk]

And thank you for that.

Barry, I would be most interested in the broker's response when he was advised of the issues...

I bought the truck 4 years ago, so I have little or no hope of going back to the broker.

[Barry Wolk]

I am now disgusted, beyond contempt. I got into the brakes and found something that no inspection would have found. The drums looked odd to me so I put a 12" ruler on the ID of the drum and found it to be 12 3/16" leaving a very thin drum edge.

I found out that the drum was exactly 12" when new. State law, from what I understand, won't allow you to turn it more than .090 over, or 12.090". I couldn't believe my eyes so I set a micrometer for .090 and laid it up against the gap to get a reference. I guessed that it was over-turned by about double. I stopped by an auto parts store, where they used a digital drum micrometer and sure enough, it read 12.182", or double that allowable diameter increase.

The brakes drums were not worn that big, they were turned that big, intentionally, and that's what's disgusting. There were score marks remaining, so there was little use. Somebody had no conscience. They knew exactly what they were doing.

What further alerted me to this bit of deceit was the wear pattern in the brake shoes. New shoes come designed to fit the radius of new drums. Any increase in drum size produces a change in the arc. When the arc is oversized the brake shoe makes less contact. It's best, on drum brakes, to have the shoes arced to fit the drum, rather than wearing them in to conform to the size of the drum. That way you have full contact between shoes and drum from day one. Very few people have the equipment to arc brake shoes, but they are out there. I could tell there was a horrible mismatch as there was wear on only about 10% of the shoe's surface, meaning I had little braking capacity.

I only hope that the bastard that did this falls prey to their own shoddy work.

[keiser31]

Karma works.

[Barry Wolk]

Then that would imply that I got what's coming to me for relying on another human being's word.

[keiser31]

Then that would imply that I got what's coming to me for relying on another human being's word.

You cannot fault yourself (and neither will Karma) for believing a fool's story. Sometimes we just get the wool pulled too far over our eyes. I bought a '57 Chevy truck once. Believed every word of the guy's story about how good it ran. I test drove it. Ran GREAT! I only drove it around a shopping center parking lot for a test drive. Bought it. Took it out on the freeway to get home and that POS would not get out of it's own way. Was sorry ever since, but bought it "AS IS". My bad. Try not to beat yourself up over it.

[28 Chrysler]

I always buy "projects" so I know things need to be done.

A friend of mine who wanted a finished car and bought a 1970 Chevelle SS.

The car was nose out in a well packed garage.

The seller opened the hood to show off the chrome on the rebuilt motor, moved the car out, took a test drive and made a deal inside the car.

I was invited over to look at his new toy.

The whole right side was replaced as well as the left 1/4 panel, the inner fender was 2 inches short, the trunk lid will never fit right.

The wiring was about the same as the body work " JUST GET IT DONE"

From November to March he has driven it maybe 20 miles.

[Rooney3100]

My Wife & I drove all the way out to Colorado in 2000 from upper michigan to buy a 56 GMC with a V8 auto trans, we did this before I found my 56 chevy truck from Oregon, when we got there 24 hours later strait thru, it looked as thou the guy owned the whole town, he even had a car museum, his name was on everything, seems funny that when I asked questions on the phone he would alway's say Yes & No that's it, never ran into anyone like that, anyway when we got over there to look at the truck and buy it for $6000.00 he lied about everything, the front end was out of wack from hitting something, the oil in the motor was as black as Tar, it did run and it was pretty original, when we went to test drive it, it wouldn't even shift out of first gear, the front end also started to shake vigorously, I even took a tow bar to tow it home, We were so P!!!od at the guy I wanted to ring his neck about not telling me the truth and spending our time and money to go and get this truck, he sat there not even bothered, looked as thou he does this alot to people, the few pictures he sent me hid all the problems, espesially the front bumper and fender being out of wack, I wanted to get a truck similiar to the 1957 GMC I had in Arizona back in 1980, it was green with a 4 speed, it wasn't a good start to finding an original task force truck, what a long trip that was and a big waste of our money......Moral Of The Story Is......If someone is selling something and doesn't answer your questions correctly or doesn't send a lot of updated pictures, just let the deal go......Rooney3100

Edited March 17, 2013 by Rooney3100 (see edit history)

[nickelroadster]

Just remember the good part of your story. You did not buy the truck. Think about what you would have felt like had you purchased it. These are some examples of people purposely trying to scam others. I also think a lot of brokers only think of the positive aspects of the vehicle an don't even want to know of any problems it may have. It is nice to be positive but sometimes they seem to have rose colored blinders on.

[Curti]

Auction cars are very often this bad or worse. I have 34-36 Auburns and sell parts for them. Some of the cars I am familiar with because I have sold parts to the builder, so naturally I take note when they go to Auction. A month or two later I will get a call from the new owner looking for parts. The problems range from empty gages, water pumps with no impeller, empty superchargers, rear differentials with broken teeth thrown back in side, cracked blocks, mismatched pistons and rods, not to mention a myriad of incorrect parts. They have shiny paint, but you can only imagine what is under it. Buyer beware.

[Dandy Dave]

Ahhh yessss. It was love at first sight! I got to go through my 15 Buick fairly well before I bought it as I did some work on some of the owners other cars and he bought the Buick just before he passed on. I knew that the car had mechanical issues and the price was not all that cheep for what it was. The body work and upholstery was done fairly well, and mechanical repairs are my specialty so they did not scare me in the least. I have never been sorry for buying it and have had a load of fun with it no matter where I take it. I would not trade the experiance of driving and maintaining this early car for much of anything in the world. I guess what I am really trying to say is, Money is not everything. Especially in this hobbie. Dandy Dave!

[Guest BJM]

People always get on me because I buy project level cars mostly because that's all I can usually afford OR nice originals that aren't high demand cars. But when you restore it yourself, YOU know it's done right. Or it's your fault. We can't all do restorations (time mostly) so get tons of references on restoration shops. Thanks to West I found a good one locally that I can 1. visit and 2. even help out on my own car.

[Dave Mitchell]

I hear a lot of people say that you can buy a "fully restored" car for less than it costs to retore one. I'm skeptical of that. Usually you get what you pay for. I tell people that unless you know the car really well or hire someone who does know what they are doing - and look at it in detail, you don't know what you are getting. I also hear guys (including seasoned big collectors buying from well known dealers) complain about how they didn't have time to go look at a car they bought - then they get a car that isn't the great deal that they thought, and they spend a lot more time on it than it would have taken to either go look at it or the money that it would have taken to hire a qualified restorer to look at it. It costs a lot to properly restore a car and it also costs a lot to go back and fix all the things that weren't done or were done poorly on a restoration where corners were cut. I know - I have had to do this and my friends with reputable shops do it too. The only way to really know what is done and what isn't is to either do it, or check it and make sure it is done, or buy a car done by a reputable professional shop and talk to that shop to learn what they did. Not all customers can or will pay to do it right or do it all, so it may not even be the shop's fault. Some big collectors have restored cars to win trophies and not to drive, so just because a car has gorgeous paint doesn't mean it is a fully restored car. When it comes to Packard V12s I have been amazed at what some shops have not done as part of an engine rebuild - I tell people that if they can't prove to me that one of the very small number of people who I know who do Packard 12 engines right have done it, the engine most likely needs to be done.

[West Peterson]

if they can't prove to me that one of the very small number of people who I know who do Packard 12 engines right have done it, the engine most likely needs to be done.

Excellent point, Dave. My dad, whom you know very well, taught me to always assume the engine is going to need to be rebuilt no matter how good the car looks, and no matter what you've been told about the engine... and to make an offer on a car accordingly (in other words, about the same amount you'd pay if the car wasn't running at all). That way (assuming the seller accepts the offer), even if the car needs an engine rebuild right away, you're not immediately upside down in it. Yes, you'll walk away from a lot of cars you'd like to own, but if money isn't growing on the tree in your back yard, it's good advice.

Many times he bought cars that didn't need an engine rebuild right away, but as much as he toured in cars across the country, they eventually did.

[Curti]

Very, very few people have the expertise to correctly restore every part of a vintage car. It is my hobby and passion to do as much of the restoration myself on nice cars as I can. But as Clint Eastwood said ' Know your limitations'. Of the dozen or so 34-36 Auburns I have done, everyone is just a little bit better and more accurately restored than the last. NO bolt and nut goes unturned. I do not have the equipment or expertise to do a engine rebuild, pinstripe, or do the trimming. Everything else I do including body and paint and prep for chrome plating. I cannot imagine what would drive the person to do such shoddy work on Barry's truck when someone could get killed in the thing. It seems that every aspect of the restoration process is his limitation.

I'll bet that dude restores lots of cars that cross auction blocks.

[R Walling]

I used to own a small used car lot and when I bought a car for resale, I would assume that it needed an engine or trans and at least a brake job. I never got hurt following this system.

Most of the cars that I have restored were given to me, but of the ones that I bought, I assumed that they needed everything, and was not disapointed when they did.

[Dandy Dave]

It costs a lot to properly restore a car and it also costs a lot to go back and fix all the things that weren't done or were done poorly on a restoration where corners were cut. I know - I have had to do this and my friends with reputable shops do it too. The only way to really know what is done and what isn't is to either do it, or check it and make sure it is done, or buy a car done by a reputable professional shop and talk to that shop to learn what they did. Not all customers can or will pay to do it right or do it all, so it may not even be the shop's fault.

I know this all too well. Dandy Dave!