Looky What I Found! 1938 Packard Coupe. Would like help/opinions as to value. I can make the owner an offer.

[George Smolinski]

1938 Packard "Opera" Coupe. Owner says it's an opera coupe. I don't know what determines that. It doesn't have a conventional rear seat. It has what looks like jump seats facing inward instead of forward. Was restored many years ago. Runs and drives, but the carb needs work/rebuild and the exhaust manifold has a crack. 

Edited July 30 by George Smolinski (see edit history)

[bryankazmer]

Some call coupes with folding rear seats “opera coupes.”  I don’t think Packard marketing used it. I believe 38 used “Eight” instead of “120” for the model. Inner wheel trim rings are a nice accessory.  It has the thermostatically controlled grille bars too. This year used a decal instead of a serial plate, so it’s often gone. Make sure the title matches a number (like the engine no.) visible on the car if the decal is gone 
 

I never comment on pricing - the only relevant opinions are the buyer’s and

the seller’s.  I like the car

[George Cole]

The Classic Car Catalog lists an Eight Club Coupe.  Pictures show them with side mounts.  There's a very nice looking one on Classic.com for $34.5.  Sadly, they're not full classics as the Eights are the 1601 series.  But I like it!

 

https://classiccarcatalogue.com/PACKARD_1938.html

 

 

https://www.classic.com/veh/1938-packard-eight-club-coupe-11952183-WxjAJR4/

 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Matter of taste but the subject car imo is much cleaner looking than the silver example with DSM and big trippe lights.  

 

In 38 they were Packard 6 & 8 but they were still essentially in the Jr. Series.  Not sure if they offered high speed rear ends in the 38s but if you have one in this car like we had in our 39 120 you will cruise effortlessly at 65 + all day long.

 

Very nice project!

Edited July 30 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

I remember talking to the Packard club's

1938 roster keeper, and he told me that

the engines in 1938 were prone to cracking.

That might have been the larger engines.

Some expert here should know.

[trimacar]

18 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

I remember talking to the Packard club's

1938 roster keeper, and he told me that

the engines in 1938 were prone to cracking.

That might have been the larger engines.

Some expert here should know.

Yes,the 1938 Super Eights had bad metallurgy, they crack and can’t be fixed because the metal crystallizes.  Lots of bad 1938 blocks out there.

 

I’ve not heard that this is an issue with the standard eights.

 

[Glen Andrews]

Great car! Jump on it and clean it up, don't think you can go wrong with this one!

[EmTee]

It's a nice looking car; I hope you and the owner can make a deal. 

[bryankazmer]

1 hour ago, trimacar said:

Yes,the 1938 Super Eights had bad metallurgy, they crack and can’t be fixed because the metal crystallizes.  Lots of bad 1938 blocks out there.

 

I’ve not heard that this is an issue with the standard eights.

 

Correct. Super 8 is problematic but the 282 is fine

[Gunsmoke]

I always suggest when asked this question to let the seller make the first offer, after all it is their car. From that point, negotiating can be fair as the owner's position is already known. The person who owns the car, and despite the dust, likely has a pretty fair idea of the market. "Runs and drives" is a loose term, as you know there are a million things between a solid reliable runner and a questionable driver, brakes, tires, electronics, compression, shifting, road noises, just to name a few, and any of which can cost $$$ to sort. So if owner says $30K and will let you clean surface and take it for a 10 mile run, you may have a good idea of value plus or minus. Great looking car, but getting harder and harder to find people to work on them.  

[George Smolinski]

3 hours ago, trimacar said:

Yes,the 1938 Super Eights had bad metallurgy, they crack and can’t be fixed because the metal crystallizes.  Lots of bad 1938 blocks out there.

 

I’ve not heard that this is an issue with the standard eights.

 

So is this a Super 8 or standard 8?

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Standard 8 AKA 120 (official name in 37 and 39 but "8" for 38 many owners call them 120s though) or 1601 in terms of Packard Model number.  Confused yet George?  😃

 

Lots of support for Jr. Packards.  But not a Classic if that matters to you.  Last year for floor shift. 

[trimacar]

9 hours ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Lots of support for Jr. Packards.  But not a Classic if that matters to you. 

Yes, not a Full Classic, which in the past has hurt their value.  These days, the 120 series, or standard eight, or in this case a 1601 as mentioned, (which is what this car is) has gathered quite a following.  The first Full Classic in 1938 for Packard was the 1603.

 

Why have they gone up in value?  Because they are a Packard, they are really great driving cars, have nice styling (although many people like the flowing fenders of the 1937 rather than the bulbous pontoon fenders of the 1938, though my owning a 1938 1604 convertible coupe has me prejudiced the other way!), and, at least in the past, were quite affordable when compared to the Senior cars.

 

It would be a great car to acquire and have a lot of fun with.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Yep and between Dave Mitchell and David Flack (Flackmaster here and on Packard info.com) I am sure they can help with a manifold and carb or carb kit. 

 

Fun to watch the grille open and close when the engine heats up and cools down as well! 

[28 Chrysler]

Let the seller state a asking price. I personally might go  some place between $17,000 and $28,000.

The cost of getting the car to that condition may have been around that or more.

[alsancle]

There is a 38 120 coupe for sale here locally that has original paint.  Just had about 5k in professional sorting done.  I believe the ask is down to about 20K.  It is a really honest decent car.

[60FlatTop]

 

Discuss each of these questions with the seller. It will give you a very good idea of what you are going to have to do once it is yours. I have used them faithfully on the last four cars I bought. Very telling.

 

Car Sale Questions

 

1. Do you own the car and have legal proof?

2 Is the paperwork clear and free of liens, unbranded?

3. How long have you owned the car?

4. Is the car currently licensed and insured?

5. Can it be driven on the road, legally, today?

6 Is the car in storage? If so, how long has it been stored?

7. How many miles did you drive it during the last 12 months?

8. Have you done any major work on the car since you have owned it?

9. What and when was the most recent service or repair?

10. If you decided to keep the car what improvement would you consider important?

[George Smolinski]

I think I'm going to pass on it. It will be part of a divorce settlement & the wife wants to keep it, but the seller/husband doesn't. He also said he has an offer of $26,000 as it sits. From the opinions and information here, I think he's overpriced & I don't know if it's his to sell or his wife's. Nice looking car and I was excited to see it tucked away in the corner of his shop, but I'm not interested anymore.

[Reynard]

Thank you for following up. So often posters leave issues like this open and we are left to wonder how it all came out.

There will be another time and another car... keep looking.

 

 

 

[Xander Wildeisen]

Very nice.

[Walt G]

According to the CCCA a 120 Packard is not a "full classic" ( as opposed to what a 67.58 % classic?? 🙄) BUT if that 120 had a body on it by Rollston/Rollson ( as they did built many town cars on that chassis) then it would be a classic? Seems that there may always be an exception to the current rules.

[TAKerry]

Divorce! I think you are wise to stay far away from that. I would stay in contact and once all of the dust has settled, IF the wife ends up with it you may be able to get it from her?

[George Smolinski]

1 hour ago, TAKerry said:

Divorce! I think you are wise to stay far away from that. I would stay in contact and once all of the dust has settled, IF the wife ends up with it you may be able to get it from her?

Possibly, but right now I have eyes on an original 1960 Corvette that is a roadworthy driver and a 1961 Corvette with 1 repaint, same owner since the 70's. 

[Frank DuVal]

Ha! I bought my 1941 120 convertible in a "divorce forces sale" wait, he was long divorced and moved away, it was just still parked (along with the many boxes) in the ex-wife's garage in Asbury Park.🤣

[Packard enthus.]

A "CLASSIC" ?      PACKARDS FROM THEIR 'JUNIOR' SERIES?

Let's be honest - these days EVERYTHING is a "classic".   I just got back from the grocery store where it is getting harder and harder to find something on the shelves that is not labled "classic".   Everything from shoe-laces to potato chips.   No point in "crying over spilt milk"....change is part of history.

 

There is no denying that ANY American car from that era (IF PROPERLY MAINTAINED)  is a nice driver & reliable.  Incredible advances in technology made the difference between the "ordinary man" cars and the "super-luxury" cars less and less dramatic as the years unfolded.

 

Yes,  we  "who were there" in the early years of the CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA know why we chose the then rarely seen the word "classic".   Even the dictionaries of today reflect the change.   In those days,  as applied to pre-war cars,  "something unique, representing the highest standard of excellence".    Only the largest, most powerful, most elegant....AND representing the Greek and Roman theory of design in that "form follows function"....a huge long hood separate and distinct from fenders, headlight bulbs etc.  Would not have occured to us in those days to call ANY "ordinary man" car of ANY era a "classic".

 

When considering purchase of a pre-war Packard, remember, starting with 1935 production, there were actually two separate Packard companies.  Of course the "Junior Division" cars were at least as good as other makes in their respective price class.   Of course the "120's"  were "legally"  Packards. 

 

But they were not the traditional "Senior Division" cars Packard had developed its well-deserved reputation on.   NOTHING NOT SO MUCH AS A LEVER...on those "Junior Division" products will fit the much larger, heavier, more powerful "Senior Division" cars. Well...a couple of exceptions.  Door handles and interior lighting fixtures (both purchased from outside vendors!).

 

Does a Packard "120" drive nicely?  Of course!  (So do Buicks, Fords, Chevrolets of that era...!).   Do they perform as well as a Senior Division Packard  (built in a separate factory with separate staff sourced from different parts)?    C'mon folks...Packard did not cheat the buyers who paid double or triple the amount for their "Senior Division" cars.   Ever heard the expression "you get what you pay for"...?

 

To say that an "ordinary man" Packard was as nice to own as a "Senior Division" product...was to claim Packard cheated its customers by charging so much more for the big ones. 

 

Baloney!    I was actually born in the back seat of a Packard "120".   Spent much of my early years in them.   Had to wait till I was 16 (in 1956)  to get my own "Senior Division" Packard.  

 

So - when you are contemplating buying a car, think hard about what will satisfy you.  If you are & have  the Ford, Oldsmobile, Chevrolet or Buick level tastes....YES....a Packard "120" is at least equal if not superior (in some but not all ways) to other "ordinary man" products of that era. Get a good one and you will be happy with it.

 

But please...don't be fooled....just because an old car's hubcaps say "Packard"......be aware there were essentially two different companies making cars of that name.  Packard really did produce some magnificent products, well worth the money in each of the price classes it participated in.

 

Personal note - some of us mark the summer of 1939 as the end of "real" Packard production.  That was when the  entire "Senior Division" plant and its tooling was gutted and disposed of,  so that  Packard from that point on could concentrate onf "Junior Division level  products.    A word of caution, folks.....dont try and tell someone "who was there"...i.e...owned  so many of them,  that those later cars, labeled as Packards...some of which were fitted with the higher quality left-over upholstery & rugs from the old "Senior Division" stocks...are "real" Packards....!

Edited August 2 by Packard enthus. (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

Hmm, I guess I will just have to get a 1958 PACKARD....🤣 I guess there was no leftover Senior Packard stuff by then.😮

 

So the separate factory idea of doubling up on personnel doing the same work during a depression only lasted 5 years before the money ran out? ❓

[EmTee]

12 hours ago, TAKerry said:

I would stay in contact and once all of the dust has settled, IF the wife ends up with it you may be able to get it from her?

I wouldn't be surprised if George gets a call from her a year from now asking if he's still interested... 

[TAKerry]

8 hours ago, Packard enthus. said:

A "CLASSIC" ?      PACKARDS FROM THEIR 'JUNIOR' SERIES?

Let's be honest - these days EVERYTHING is a "classic".   I just got back from the grocery store where it is getting harder and harder to find something on the shelves that is not labled "classic".   Everything from shoe-laces to potato chips.   No point in "crying over spilt milk"....change is part of history.

 

There is no denying that ANY American car from that era (IF PROPERLY MAINTAINED)  is a nice driver & reliable.  Incredible advances in technology made the difference between the "ordinary man" cars and the "super-luxury" cars less and less dramatic as the years unfolded.

 

Yes,  we  "who were there" in the early years of the CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA know why we chose the then rarely seen the word "classic".   Even the dictionaries of today reflect the change.   In those days,  as applied to pre-war cars,  "something unique, representing the highest standard of excellence".    Only the largest, most powerful, most elegant....AND representing the Greek and Roman theory of design in that "form follows function"....a huge long hood separate and distinct from fenders, headlight bulbs etc.  Would not have occured to us in those days to call ANY "ordinary man" car of ANY era a "classic".

 

When considering purchase of a pre-war Packard, remember, starting with 1935 production, there were actually two separate Packard companies.  Of course the "Junior Division" cars were at least as good as other makes in their respective price class.   Of course the "120's"  were "legally"  Packards. 

 

But they were not the traditional "Senior Division" cars Packard had developed its well-deserved reputation on.   NOTHING NOT SO MUCH AS A LEVER...on those "Junior Division" products will fit the much larger, heavier, more powerful "Senior Division" cars. Well...a couple of exceptions.  Door handles and interior lighting fixtures (both purchased from outside vendors!).

 

Does a Packard "120" drive nicely?  Of course!  (So do Buicks, Fords, Chevrolets of that era...!).   Do they perform as well as a Senior Division Packard  (built in a separate factory with separate staff sourced from different parts)?    C'mon folks...Packard did not cheat the buyers who paid double or triple the amount for their "Senior Division" cars.   Ever heard the expression "you get what you pay for"...?

 

To say that an "ordinary man" Packard was as nice to own as a "Senior Division" product...was to claim Packard cheated its customers by charging so much more for the big ones. 

 

Baloney!    I was actually born in the back seat of a Packard "120".   Spent much of my early years in them.   Had to wait till I was 16 (in 1956)  to get my own "Senior Division" Packard.  

 

So - when you are contemplating buying a car, think hard about what will satisfy you.  If you are & have  the Ford, Oldsmobile, Chevrolet or Buick level tastes....YES....a Packard "120" is at least equal if not superior (in some but not all ways) to other "ordinary man" products of that era. Get a good one and you will be happy with it.

 

But please...don't be fooled....just because an old car's hubcaps say "Packard"......be aware there were essentially two different companies making cars of that name.  Packard really did produce some magnificent products, well worth the money in each of the price classes it participated in.

 

Personal note - some of us mark the summer of 1939 as the end of "real" Packard production.  That was when the  entire "Senior Division" plant and its tooling was gutted and disposed of,  so that  Packard from that point on could concentrate onf "Junior Division level  products.    A word of caution, folks.....dont try and tell someone "who was there"...i.e...owned  so many of them,  that those later cars, labeled as Packards...some of which were fitted with the higher quality left-over upholstery & rugs from the old "Senior Division" stocks...are "real" Packards....!

My math says you were born in 1940, so I guess you were NOT there! Its a shame all of us cannot afford a 12cylinder Packard. 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Oh my.  I think starting every non- Classic, non V-12 Packard related post with "I wish it were a 12" just might cull some noise out going forward...

[Packard enthus.]

Help me better understand your knowledge of cars of the late pre-war era.  For example...what can you tell me about the quality of the parts,  the engineering,  the exterior and/or interior design...the performance differences in performance between a Ford, Chevrolet, and a "Junior Series" Packard of that era.

[Packard enthus.]

6 hours ago, TAKerry said:

My math says you were born in 1940, so I guess you were NOT there! Its a shame all of us cannot afford a 12cylinder Packard. 

 

[1935Packard]

To say that an "ordinary man" Packard was as nice to own as a "Senior Division" product...was to claim Packard cheated its customers by charging so much more for the big ones. 

 

I've seen you make this argument over the years, but I've never understood it.  If a restaurant wants to offer a chicken entree for $15, and a lobster dinner for $50, we don't normally think that there's anything wrong with someone who says they really love the chicken there.  We don't think the restaurant is cheating its customers by charging more for the lobster than the chicken, either.  It's a business offering multiple products; if you like one, or both, good for you.  (Fwiw, I have two senior Packards, including a 12, and I've previously had a junior Packard, a 110, too.  All great cars!)

[Packard enthus.]

you are correct as to my year of birth..i was born in 1940.

 

My mistake in failing to explain what era of "being there" i was referring to.   I meant to explain I was a car buff and wound up being a member of the CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA when I came of driving age in 1956.  So my admittedly obsolete and presently irrelevant discussion of the word "classic" dates from that era.

 

Afford a Packard Twelve?   Anyone could afford one in those days.   But our culture was different in those post-war days...."modern" was what folks wanted.   My parents could afford to buy me a new (1956) Chevrolet.  When I came home with my Twelve my parents discussed sending me to a psych. for eval.....you car buffs of today cannot imagine how much the big super-luxury cars of the pre-war era were hated ..symbols of a darker era to be rejected.   

 

I have learned, and I suggest you join me in recognizing culture changes with the needs of the participants.   Many folks today reject the traditional purpose of the AACA - which can run counter to those in the used car business.  Can you blame folks who need to put food on the table, for their demand that car clubs accept an ever wider group of used cars?

 

An outstanding example how far some folks want to take the AACA can be found in Steven Ross's article APPRECIATION FOR EMERGING ANTIQUES (see 'ANTIQUE AUTOMOBILE May/June of last year).  So why shouldn't a used 1994 dump truck be valued as an antique and accepted by the AACA as such?

 

I had to scrape and save, mow a lot of lawns, to afford my Packard Twelve.   Twenty five bucks for a old car that needed engine work, tires, and a battery was outrageous. (given the fact by today's purchasing power we are talking of around  $750.).

 

But let's keep our eyes on the ball - my initial post in this thread was simply to provide guidance on proposed purchases of pre-war Packards.   Can you folks help me understand how that post was not relevant to the purpose of this club?

 

 

 

 

Edited August 2 by Packard enthus. (see edit history)

[Packard enthus.]

3 minutes ago, 1935Packard said:

To say that an "ordinary man" Packard was as nice to own as a "Senior Division" product...was to claim Packard cheated its customers by charging so much more for the big ones. 

 

I've seen you make this argument over the years, but I've never understood it.  If a restaurant wants to offer a chicken entree for $15, and a lobster dinner for $50, we don't normally think that there's anything wrong with someone who says they really love the chicken there.  We don't think the restaurant is cheating its customers by charging more for the lobster than the chicken, either.  It's a business offering multiple products; if you like one, or both, good for you.  (Fwiw, I have two senior Packards, including a 12, and I've previously had a junior Packard, a 110, too.  All great cars!)

 

[Packard enthus.]

something fishy here.  Or this fellow has some cars that are not serviced and maintained properly.   A Packard 110 and a Packard Twelve are great cars?   In what way are they great?    Well, both (again, if both are  properly maintained)  give a good driving experience for what they were.

 

Having owned both over the years,  i know how much greater one is over the other.   Try denying that,  and you expose your misfortune .  Lack of technical competence - poor maintenance and/or the inability to find competent technical support?

 

Sorry - I am the wrong guy to try and convince Packard cheated its customers of its "Senior Division" products.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

@Packard enthus. I don't think anyone is insinuating a 110 or 120 will perform at the level of a 12, or super 8.  I just think the discussion is irrelevant here as OP (apologies for perpetuating this, George) wasn't asking that.

 

As a lot of Packard people might want a Packard for CCCA events I just pointed out the car is indeed a Jr.  Can't be that bad I guess, from what I hear a lot of CCCA folk seem to like those 120 based Darrins...

 

FWIW I am a fan of classic rock, and have belonged to both the CCCA and Classic Chevy Club (55-57) over the years.  What is funny is both groups believe they own the best cars in the world, and many music fans argue classic rock represents the best music of modern times. I wouldn't be too hung up on semantics...

[Snarfy]

Once again, the discussion of a topic goes off the rails. 
Dear Mr. Administrator,

Please delete all non-relevant replies from this thread.

Thank you,

The OP

[Packard enthus.]

I disagree.  The OP brought to the attention of this "thread" his interest in  Packards.   I think it is within the scope of AACA to want participants to help others with relevant information.

 

Many old car fans have heard the name of PACKARD.  Isn't it interesting that this long gone name is still associated with high standards.

 

Unfortunately,  many old car fans are not aware that as the middle 1930's evolved,  the name "Packard" was used on two entirely different cars.  (for all practical purposes,  they were different makes of cars, made in separate factories out of unrelated parts!

 

I believe it is helpful and relevant to try and explain the differences, so that people interested in acquiring one should not, however innocently, get lured into something that is not what they contemplated.

Edited August 2 by Packard enthus. (see edit history)

[Grimy]

1 hour ago, Packard enthus. said:

the name "Packard" was used on two entirely different cars

Unlike Pierce-Arrow 🙂 except for the Series 80 and 81 1925-1928.   I noticed you confined your remarks to Packards of the 1930s (good!) because the Packard Six of the 1920s was downmarket as well compared to the senior cars--and they provoked the Pierce 80/81.  And do you remember the anti-Packard Cadillac ads which sniffed (substantially, I don't have the exact quote), "The name Cadillac has never been applied to medium-priced cars," conveniently explaining the LaSalle name on a down-market Cadillac.  SO WHAT?????

 

Peter, each of us has some pardonable (or perhaps unpardonable, in your case) pride in their marque of choice, but methinks you are carrying this a bit too far and too often.

Edited August 2 by Grimy
missing word added (see edit history)

[Grimy]

4 hours ago, Packard enthus. said:

I had to scrape and save, mow a lot of lawns, to afford my Packard Twelve.   Twenty five bucks for a old car that needed engine work, tires, and a battery was outrageous. (given the fact by today's purchasing power we are talking of around  $750.).

Did you even think, Peter, if only you had mowed just a few more lawns, you would have been able to afford a Pierce-Arrow Twelve--with factory overdrive?

Edited August 2 by Grimy
added a few words (see edit history)