How can this car be an alleged "AACA Grand National Winner"?

[joe_padavano]

At the risk of getting a thread locked, help me understand how can this car be an alleged "AACA Grand National Winner"?  First, A/C was not available with the W31 package, since the cam didn't produce enough vacuum to operate the system. Second, power brakes were not available with the W31 package for the same reason. Third, W31s did not get the notched back bumper and exhaust trumpets. Fourth, the aftermarket overflow tank is definitely not even a GM product.

 

https://www.mecum.com/lots/561598/1970-oldsmobile-cutlass-s-w-31/

[John_S_in_Penna]

Joe, you have every right to ask questions.  It's your club.

 

Another question might be to the auction company:

For a car whose estimated value is over $100,000, and

which they are representing, shouldn't they be doing

a little knowledgeable fact-checking too?

[rocketraider]

There's a bright red 66 Toronado I've asked that same question about.

 

I realize a judging team can't know everything or even some of the nuances for some carlines, especially given AACA judging by nature tends to be (almost has to be, really) generalized.

 

What's really troubling is when marque club judging lets the same stuff happen.

 

Twenty-odd years ago as an Oldsmobile Club of America director I brought this up in OCA and pushed to get model-specific judging training in place. Boy did I pay a high price for that one. The then-head judge got himself elected OCA president and immediately set about trying to discredit and get rid of me and everything I'd accomplished as a director.

 

I can only hope the Shunka Warak'in gets him someday!😆

[jp1gt]

42 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

There's a bright red 66 Toronado I've asked that same question about.

 

I realize a judging team can't know everything or even some of the nuances for some carlines, especially given AACA judging by nature tends to be (almost has to be, really) generalized.

 

What's really troubling is when marque club judging lets the same stuff happen.

 

Twenty-odd years ago as an Oldsmobile Club of America director I brought this up in OCA and pushed to get model-specific judging training in place. Boy did I pay a high price for that one. The then-head judge got himself elected OCA president and immediately set about trying to discredit and get rid of me and everything I'd accomplished as a director.

 

I can only hope the Shunka Warak'in gets him someday!😆

that is clubs for you!!!

[Walt G]

Decades ago I judged at CCCA "Grand Classics" and after doing this several times finally gave up and declined to do so. My main fault was that I looked at cars for authenticity, that weighed heavy with how I felt points should be deducted. If it was wrong due to not being correct when the car was new , why should it be correct now on a period car because it is restored perfectly with no dust and a good polish?  I usually was on a team that was comprised of a few fellows who had owned the classic cars  for many many decades. They would smile when I would politely comment that I thought the car under observation was "incorrect although beautiful" Especially a fine gentleman named Bruce Lane as well as another named Bill Davis.  I got along well with those two guys.

[CChinn]

Is this car truly an AACA Grand National Winner?  I see an AACA award oval on the grille, but can’t read what it is for. I did not see this car when I briefly looked at the 2021 Grand National winners. I’m sure someone here will know for sure. For Joe, you asked a reasonable question. Don’t see any reason for the moderators to take any action 

[Cadillac Fan]

Things might have been modified/ changed after the judging for drivability, etc.  as the car may have had 3 owners from when it was judged. 
 

 

For me, judging at clubs that are not mark specific (aaca / ccca) should be taken with a grain of salt.   Especially if there is not a corresponding mark club award.  I.e., only ccca or only aaca.  
 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Cadillac Fan (see edit history)

[Steve Moskowitz]

Joe, the first question is whether the car REALLY did win the awards as some unscrupulous people have taken badges off legitimate cars and used them to bolster other cars.  I suspect that this car though did win a GN.  No time to check out right now.  With over 1,000 judges who have to deal with vehicles from the 1890's to the 1990's and every brand ever made it makes it far more difficult than say NCRS.  We simply do not have that level of expertise at all events and all classes.  Mistakes are made and maybe more so these days when not enough experts are volunteering to judge these cars. We have what is called CJE's where judges with particular expertise teach other judges...having an Olds expert like you putting on one of these would be helpful. Judging with any club will not always be perfect but it is the members who will ultimately make it better.

 

Glenn, the Toronado in question is well known.  It has never been shown for a Grand National and it would be impossible for it to win under our guidelines/scoring especially since a certain person is aware....

[Terry Bond]

i looked at the post and note the auction company says they will provide "score sheets."  That's interesting as AACA does not provide score sheets with one exception - at the request of the owner, the VP of Class Judging can provide a blank shore sheet with highlighted areas where deductions were taken.  This is to assist owners in helping to prepare their vehicles for future judging. Points deducted and actual judging score sheets should never be disclosed.

 

I see also the car apparently won in a Grand National in 2001.  It received a National 1st quite some time prior to that actually - 2009.  Not sure when it received a Senior award, which is necessary before it can be entered into a Grand National.  The serial numbers on the Grand National Award tag can easily be traced by HQ to find out if the car was a legitimate Grand National entry.  It's not uncommon that a tag belonging to another car is acquired and attached to an auction vehicle n an attempt to help increase the value.  Not saying someone "cheated" on that but actually winning that award should be verified before silly money is spent.

 

Another thing to consider - prior National Award winning cars are often driver once their awards are received.  It's possible a car is simply "displayed" in a museum or large private collection, but the use and enjoyment of such a car after you no longer need to be concerned about some dirt, grime or a few scratches is often irresistible.  Our own MGB has well over 50K miles on it after receiving it's AACA Senior years ago.  On a car that is used, it may have been fitted with components not on it when it was actually judged. Changing wheels, tires, adding AC and other items is frequently done supposedly to enhance creature comfort.  So - how the auction car was equipped may not be the same way it was equipped when it was shown in AACA.

 

Let us know what you find out though - curious folks out here.

Terry

[Steve Moskowitz]

8 minutes ago, Cadillac Fan said:

Things might have been modified/ changed after the judging for drivability, etc.  as the car may have had 3 owners from when it was judged. 

Another GREAT point....and Joe, the car could have lost 20 points and still have won a first grand national as that is the bottom threshold for that award.

[Terry Bond]

I was typing too slow I guess.  Good input from all.

Terry

[Avanti Bill]

2 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

At the risk of getting a thread locked, help me understand how can this car be an alleged "AACA Grand National Winner"?  First, A/C was not available with the W31 package, since the cam didn't produce enough vacuum to operate the system. Second, power brakes were not available with the W31 package for the same reason. Third, W31s did not get the notched back bumper and exhaust trumpets. Fourth, the aftermarket overflow tank is definitely not even a GM product.

 

https://www.mecum.com/lots/561598/1970-oldsmobile-cutlass-s-w-31/

I am not a GM or Oldsmobile expert under any circumstances so let me be careful here asking this question.  Are you absolutely certain of your claim in the above statement.  Could this be a  COPO car that was special ordered with the AC and the power brakes?  I know from the marque clubs I have judged and been judged in that there are often anomalies in cars to what are considered the norm.  We have seen documented evidence on cars that have never been touched of "the wrong" bumper or trim piece from the factory.  This is especially true with low production cars or cars with special options. 

 

Lastly I would defend the AACA judging system in that this appears to be a very nicely done car.  Even if this car is incorrect, and I am not disputing this, it is done with what appears to be a correct GM AC unit and brake booster.  This would never be caught under the AACA system if these parts were not available on what is a low production option package.  It is possible that it was never a "W31" car and that badging was added after a GN first.  They claim to have the data plate and if this car is not what it is claimed to be the auction company could and should be at risk though the bidders wave any recourse when registering to bid.    

[1937hd45]

I turned in my GRAND NATIONAL and SENIOR ovals in  to AACA Headquarters when I sold my car back in 1989, it was in the AACA RULES back then, when and why did they change them? 

Edited May 8, 2023 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

That is one beautiful car, I would be proud to own it. Regarding the award in question, I have no legitimate response. The ad does say factory air, again not sure what that means. 

 

I was under the impression and will be glad to be corrected if wrong, but there are no point deductions for an over restoration. Would adding a/c and a different rear bumper that are factory correct, period correct, and even car correct but not necessarily model correct not be considered and 'over restoration'. 

[George Smolinski]

5 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

Joe, you have every right to ask questions.  It's your club.

 

Another question might be to the auction company:

For a car whose estimated value is over $100,000, and

which they are representing, shouldn't they be doing

a little knowledgeable fact-checking too?

First, you have to be knowledgeable about old/classic/muscle cars. From wasting time watching some of the auctions on TV, I'd say on average they don't know their as_ from a hole in the ground when it comes to the subject.

[TAKerry]

No dog in the fight, but I would be willing to bet that there are guys associated with Mecum that know more about and have sold more cars than a lot of us combined!

[Steve Moskowitz]

20 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

I turned in my GRAND NATIONAL and SENIOR ovals in  to AACA Headquarters when I sold my car back in 1989, it was in the AACA RULES back then, when and why did they change them? 

Bob, we have not changed the rules but in case you are not aware, not everyone plays by the rules and we do not have a police force to enforce the rules!!

[1937hd45]

49 minutes ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

Bob, we have not changed the rules but in case you are not aware, not everyone plays by the rules and we do not have a police force to enforce the rules!!

Thank you Steve, It may have to do with being a PRE WORLD WAR II Vehicle enthusiast. 

Bob

[Avanti Bill]

I must admit I did not know it was in the rules to turn the badges in when you sold the car.  I thought you could continue on wherever the previous owner stopped showing.  I also know the buyer can choose, as I did with a car that I purchased that already had a first Jr, that you can return to the beginning and start over or carry on from where they left off.  I have sold one car that had received a Sr GN and I did not remove the badges, my fault I was not aware of the rule. 

[rocketraider]

And we learn something.

 

The quality of the Cutlass in question isn't being disputed. It's a well done car. 

 

The dispute is over certain options that pure and simple were not available with the W31 engine. Not even dealer installed. The factory sales spec sheets are clear on that.

 

I've said for years most musclecar owners and restorers don't know anything about the cars. Take it out of the Ford-Chevrolet-Plymouth mainstream and they're lost as last year's Easter egg. The result is often a gorgeous car that is totally incorrect but will, sooner or later, be held up as the standard for the breed. Corruption breeds more...

[Steve Moskowitz]

 

15 minutes ago, Avanti Bill said:

I must admit I did not know it was in the rules to turn the badges in when you sold the car.  I thought you could continue on wherever the previous owner stopped showing.  I also know the buyer can choose, as I did with a car that I purchased that already had a first Jr, that you can return to the beginning and start over or carry on from where they left off.  I have sold one car that had received a Sr GN and I did not remove the badges, my fault I was not aware of the rule. 

Ok, my answer was way too brief.  Little time for the forum today.  The rule is more extensive that I spoke about.  The rule is like spokes of a wheel, there are several....they should be returned BUT if the new owner wants to keep them and continue judging to the next available award that is permissable.  Secondly, if the former owner does remove them they can be sent to HQ and we can engrave them retired and they can keep them.  

[joe_padavano]

4 hours ago, Avanti Bill said:

I am not a GM or Oldsmobile expert under any circumstances so let me be careful here asking this question.  Are you absolutely certain of your claim in the above statement.  Could this be a  COPO car that was special ordered with the AC and the power brakes?  I know from the marque clubs I have judged and been judged in that there are often anomalies in cars to what are considered the norm.  We have seen documented evidence on cars that have never been touched of "the wrong" bumper or trim piece from the factory.  This is especially true with low production cars or cars with special options. 

 

Lastly I would defend the AACA judging system in that this appears to be a very nicely done car.  Even if this car is incorrect, and I am not disputing this, it is done with what appears to be a correct GM AC unit and brake booster.  This would never be caught under the AACA system if these parts were not available on what is a low production option package.  It is possible that it was never a "W31" car and that badging was added after a GN first.  They claim to have the data plate and if this car is not what it is claimed to be the auction company could and should be at risk though the bidders wave any recourse when registering to bid.    

Yes, I am absolutely certain of the points I made. The "special order" argument is the go-to excuse for one-of-none cars, but never is the special order claim backed up by any documentation. And contrary to what people like to say on line, the "you could get anything you wanted" claim is flat untrue. GM had to warranty these cars and support them in the parts and service networks. Any substitutions and changes were completely documented in the dealer service bulletins. As for the suggestion that the car was altered after winning the award, I considered that. While power brakes are pretty easy to retrofit, factory air conditioning is not. The A-body A/C requires completely different openings in the firewall, along with substantial, invasive changes to the car. It isn't impossible, but it it highly unlikely. And more to the point, the whole reason why these features were not available with the W31 package is because the engine was specifically designed for NHRA stock class drag racing. The cam did not produce enough manifold vacuum to operate the power brakes or the vacuum-actuated HVAC system (the heater-only system was cable-operated, not vacuum-operated).

 

As for due diligence on the part of the auction company, have you ever read the fine print (especially items 11 and 13)?

 

 

 

[joe_padavano]

7 hours ago, rocketraider said:

I realize a judging team can't know everything or even some of the nuances for some carlines, especially given AACA judging by nature tends to be (almost has to be, really) generalized.

 

What's really troubling is when marque club judging lets the same stuff happen.

 

Twenty-odd years ago as an Oldsmobile Club of America director I brought this up in OCA and pushed to get model-specific judging training in place. Boy did I pay a high price for that one. The then-head judge got himself elected OCA president and immediately set about trying to discredit and get rid of me and everything I'd accomplished as a director.

Glenn, I share your concern and frustration. I like to recount the story of my judging experience at the 2018 OCA Nationals. I was assigned to the Senior Preservation cars. Naturally a large number of them were 70-72 A-bodies with O.A.I. hoods. No two of those had the hood stripes painted the same, yet all were former best of class, by definition. Similarly at the 2010 Nationals where the lead judge for our group (the H/O classes) couldn't answer questions about whether or not an item was factory available on that H/O. I realize that a judging manual that covers all years and models and option combinations for even a marque club is a huge undertaking, but something like this "W-31" is well known and the information is readily available.

[ted sweet]

i saw a 1970 340 challenger r/t at hershey with a senior award going for a preservation. the 340 was not available in  the 1970 challenger rt

[Steve Moskowitz]

Any substitutions and changes were completely documented in the dealer service bulletins.

 

Joe, I hate to debate with a MIT graduate but this statement is false.  Dealer service bulletins contained a lot of the general info needed for technicians but did not document some cars that indeed got "special attention" if someone knew someone at the Divisions in GM.  Technicians in many cases never got even the info from Engineering Bulletins. Cars that were built on special order remained just that, special order and were quietly not really discussed.  It is not unlike how a few pace cars got into dealers hands.  I certainly got to see my share of skunk works results based on my time working for Olds and as a dealer.

 

All that being said I agree with your assessment of the air conditioning issue on this particular car.

[8E45E]

14 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

Yes, I am absolutely certain of the points I made. The "special order" argument is the go-to excuse for one-of-none cars, but never is the special order claim backed up by any documentation. And contrary to what people like to say on line, the "you could get anything you wanted" claim is flat untrue. GM had to warranty these cars and support them in the parts and service networks. And more to the point, the whole reason why these features were not available with the W31 package is because the engine was specifically designed for NHRA stock class drag racing. The cam did not produce enough manifold vacuum to operate the power brakes or the vacuum-actuated HVAC system (the heater-only system was cable-operated, not vacuum-operated).

 

That is why I believe it could not have either been a COPO or special-order car, simply because it WON'T WORK!    Power brakes and air conditioning were popular enough options that they would not have withheld them from a certain model for good reason.  Unlike 'extra trim', or special paint, that was an engineering decision that management had to accept, and Oldsmobile Division did not want to spend money to either modify or manufacture new components to make them compatible with the W-31 package.

 

Craig

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

Any substitutions and changes were completely documented in the dealer service bulletins.

 

Joe, I hate to debate with a MIT graduate but this statement is false.  Dealer service bulletins contained a lot of the general info needed for technicians but did not document some cars that indeed got "special attention" if someone knew someone at the Divisions in GM.  Technicians in many cases never got even the info from Engineering Bulletins. Cars that were built on special order remained just that, special order and were quietly not really discussed.  It is not unlike how a few pace cars got into dealers hands.  I certainly got to see my share of skunk works results based on my time working for Olds and as a dealer.

 

All that being said I agree with your assessment of the air conditioning issue on this particular car.

Fair enough Steve, I was oversimplifying. Obviously the hand-built 1968 Vista Cruiser with the Hurst/Olds drivetrain that Car and Driver tested and wrote about in 1968 was not covered in the tech bulletins. It was also not available to the general public. On the other hand, the 750 1967 330 motors that were built using 1968 350 block castings were, in fact, documented in both the bulletins and the parts book.

[West Peterson]

I have a close friend who worked for Fisher. The number of anomalies that left the factory would surprise you. I'm talking about cars that were built differently than what the build sheet says, and were done by accident, as opposed to any special ordering. Rather than stop the assembly line, these cars were set aside after they were built, then evaluated as to whether they could be sold (usually to a plant employee). Cars were being assembled in combinations that were not available, and today the authenticity of said vehicles cannot be documented, because the build sheet only tells of how the car was supposed to be built.

[rocketraider]

Guess that explains the 1984 TransAM I ordered new that came off the carrier with the correct TransAM fender and badging on driver side and a Firebird/Camaro fender with Camaro badging on passenger side. I would not accept the car.

 

Re Cutlass on original post: I have serious doubts this is a legitimate W31 car in the first place. If it is, the rowdy 308° cam has to have been changed to accommodate airconditioning (which as Joe points out requires a different firewall stamping) and power brakes.

 

There was a time when Oldsmobile performance car restorations didn't see the inaccuracies and outright fraud their Chevrolet and Pontiac cousins suffered. That's changed in the last twenty or so years. I can't speak to Buick since a lot of them came with their Stage 1/2 stuff in the trunk for dealer installation, which really creates gray areas but is documented by Buick.

 

 

[Marty Roth]

During the 1968-1969 time frame, I worked late shift for Anchor Motor Freight, driving new GM cars off the assembly line at the Linden Assembly Plant. 

Yes, there were mistakes made - some unintentional, and apparently some in favor of employees, friends, family, execs, etc.

Some cars with a particular "flag" received "Special Care", and sometimes seemed to also receive options far better than specified on the Build Sheet, and surely far in excess of what was paid for. In particular, I recall an Olds with every imaginable option, accessory, and feature, but the window sticker was about as bare-bones as any I could imagine.

[West Peterson]

In regard to the subject car in the OP, I would sure want to know the history from new, and some sort of statement from the original owner detailing how/why a/c was added to the car. Not having that, I'll side with Glenn.

[Avanti Bill]

OK, lets say this car is not correct in either the options or the W31 package.  Does this disqualify it from receiving a first grand national.  Under our rules for judging I think it does not.  We do not judge the correctness of options or even ask to see build sheets.  There is no penalty for over restoration which I would think would include installing correct options that did not come with the car.  As to whether or not these options would work on the car, our rules do not provide for functional test of any systems.  I think it is not correct to criticize the car for having a GN but I do agree that a buyer should vet all the claims the seller is making for their own protection. 

[Ed Nieves]

Maybe the car  had been a GN winner the day it was judged. A lot can happen after that. That's like a Corvette owner telling me that their Corvette was a NCRS Top Flight car three (3) years ago. Okay, but that doesn't necessarily mean the car is currently a Top Flight Corvette. That's why I keep my Corvette current and try to have it Top Flight judged every two years. I guess you are only as good as your last performance (lol).

Edited May 10, 2023 by Ed Nieves (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

42 minutes ago, Ed Nieves said:

The are may had been a GN winner the day it was judged. A lot can happen after that.

As I said above, while this is true, the addition of A/C is not exactly a bolt-on process. And for what it's worth (which is exactly nothing) the ad claims "factory A/C".

 

2 hours ago, Avanti Bill said:

OK, lets say this car is not correct in either the options or the W31 package.  Does this disqualify it from receiving a first grand national.  Under our rules for judging I think it does not.

So judging rules allow a grand national award to a clone? That's a VERY slippery slope...

[MCHinson]

I don't know anything about the car in question. A lot could have happened to it in the years since it received a Grand National Award (assuming that it did receive the award). 

 

The General Policy as listed in the Judging guidelines is:

 

"The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an
antique vehicle, which has been restored to the
same state as the dealer could have prepared
the vehicle for delivery to the customer. This
includes any feature, option or accessory shown
in the original factory catalog, parts book, sales
literature, or company directives for the model
year of the vehicle. AACA accepts motorized
vehicles 25 years old or older, which were built
in factories and specifically designed and
manufactured for transportation use on public
roadways and highways. The end result of the
accurate and honest evaluation of a vehicle by a
judging team will be the proper determination of
the deserved award for the owner's efforts."

 

If an option was available on that year of car from the manufacturer of the car, it does not matter (for purposes of AACA judging) if that option was not originally on that particular car. 

[joe_padavano]

8 hours ago, MCHinson said:

This includes any feature, option or accessory shown

in the original factory catalog, parts book, sales
literature, or company directives for the model
year of the vehicle.

 

If an option was available on that year of car from the manufacturer of the car, it does not matter (for purposes of AACA judging) if that option was not originally on that particular car. 

That kind of misses the point. First, it was physically impossible to combine A/C or power brakes with a W31 car. That makes this a one-of-none. It's not that the option was not originally on that particular car, it was not possible to buy one that way. As I've noted several times above, the radical nature of the cam in the W31 motor meant that it did not create enough manifold vacuum to operate those options. In addition, the A/C compressor was RPM limited, which meant that Olds wouldn't combine A/C with rear axle ratios numerically larger than 3.23:1, but the W31 only came with rear axle ratios of 3.42 and greater.

 

 

[EmTee]

So, is it likely that this started life as a 350 Cutlass that had W-31 (and a bunch of other options) added?

[MCHinson]

2 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

That kind of misses the point. First, it was physically impossible to combine A/C or power brakes with a W31 car. That makes this a one-of-none. It's not that the option was not originally on that particular car, it was not possible to buy one that way. As I've noted several times above, the radical nature of the cam in the W31 motor meant that it did not create enough manifold vacuum to operate those options. In addition, the A/C compressor was RPM limited, which meant that Olds wouldn't combine A/C with rear axle ratios numerically larger than 3.23:1, but the W31 only came with rear axle ratios of 3.42 and greater.

 

 

I think you missed my point. As I indicated, I don't know anything about the car in question. I am not suggeting that it was built with the options that it is listed as having. I neither know nor care about what options were or were not available on a "W31". I simply pointed out the judging rules. For AACA Judging, if an option was avaiable for any car of any brand for the year of production, they are acceptable under AACA judging. Unless you were sitting at the assembly point for the entire production run, it is impossible to know what may have been manufactured despite it not being officially offered by the manufacturer. A lot of things that were not supposed to be available actually got manufactured back in the day. The rules are not too specific because AACA can't know every combination that was built for every manufacturer for every year. Arguing about different options for specific models is best left to the marque clubs.

Edited May 10, 2023 by MCHinson (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

Does Oldsmobile not have a way to verify how a car was built? Pontiac has PHS and Ford has Marti. This takes away any question. If not then as in any auction, buyer beware. Does the legitimacy of an AACA GN award effect the value of this particular car, I doubt it. Joe, I understand that this type of vehicle is near and dear to you and I have learned a bit about them through this thread, and I thank you and appreciate your knowledge.  But I dont think the guy plopping $100K+ could care less if it won or not. I do see your point as far as originality but it is also my understanding of the judging guidelines as I pointed out earlier and was re-inforced by Avanit Bill and Mchinson, that to me I would say this is 'over restored'. Adding factory appropriate accessories are not grounds for a point loss unless they are done badly. No different than adding a tissue holder on a 57 Chevy that may have not had one when it was new. Or even upgrading the internals of motor for better drivability that is not going to be seen. I would guess that there are and have been more than this car that have won major AACA awards that are not EXACTLY as they were when they rolled off the assembly line.

 

Maybe the new owner will be or become an AACA member and we can find out first hand what is up with the anomalies of this vehicle.

[rocketraider]

Considering the marketing the auction house is giving this car, the expected high sale price, and the indisputable fact that someone, somewhere, down the road is going to try to present this car as the "correct" W31 restoration standard, the multiple AACA award badges aren't helping us as AACA members and judges.

 

Again, I understand that AACA judging can't possibly know the nuances of different carlines. Except for NCRS the marque clubs don't do much better even with PHS, Marti and Govier documentation.

 

The prospect of some unscrupulous owner or seller trying to pass off a car like this as a restoration standard is what bothers me.

 

I don't dispute the quality of the work. Given the constraints of W31 I do dispute anyone's claim that Oldsmobile Division built it as it's currently presented. It's basically the same thing as claiming a mid-60s Chrysler intermediate with a Street Hemi came with factory air conditioning. Didn't happen.