Trouble to start my -54 Buick every time .... crank crank crank

[MrY]

Hey Guys, anyone had this experienced and how did you FIX it ?

If I drive the car every 1-2 days no problem start right up.

 

If it sits for +3 days, I have to crank and crank, I can crank for 10 min and it never start.

I have to pull the air cleaner and pour some gasoline down the carb and then it starts right up.

Then I can stop and go without problems until it sits for more than 3 days....

 

I wounder if it's the fuel pump membrane that is shot or ?

but if the car starts up it run just fine ....

Before I replace the fuel pump I thought I ask for advice...

Don't want to replace something that is working just fine

New fuel pump is like $300

Rebuild kit like $120

Electric fuel pump like $12  (china junk)

thx

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by MrY
add more (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

Modern fuel is more volatile than fuel was when the car was new. If the fuel evaporates out of the carburetor, it will take a while to pump fuel back up so the car will start. I suspect, if you continue to turn the car over and keep pumping the accelerator pedal, you will find that eventually, it will start without having to remove the air cleaner and pour fuel into the carburetor. I have seen similar situation with my prewar Buicks. Personally, I would rebuild the current fuel pump. It could be making this issue worse if it needs a rebuild. If a check valve in the fuel pump is bad, that will make this problem even worse.  If you have not rebuilt it recently, it probably needs it anyway. I am also an advocate of installing a supplemental electric fuel pump near the gas tank with a toggle switch (in addition to being on a circuit switched by the ignition switch) so that when the car has been sitting for several days, you can switch the supplemental electric fuel pump on for 30 seconds or so to push fuel up to the carburetor to "prime" the carburetor so that the car will start without excessive cranking necessary. This is better for your starter and better for your battery. Additionally, the supplemental electric fuel pump can be used to overcome vapor lock if that is an issue in extremely hot situations. This has been very helpful in my experience on prewar Buicks.   

 

Also, I would check with Bobs Automobilia or Cars, Inc. for a carburetor rebuild kit. I think you will find that they sell a fuel pump rebuild kit for a bit less than $120. Cars, Inc. currently has that kit on ebay here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/172325309477

[Marty Roth]

Matt is absolutely correct,

and one additional note - ignore the cheap junk electric fuel pump - the cylinder shaped one which is a clicking pulse type pump.

Look at Amazon or Ebay, or a local auto parts store for a Carter Rotary Vane style pump - maybe a few bucks more but serious quality in both function and longevity:

 

Reminder, mount as low in the chassis, and as far back / close to the gas tank as reasonable and safe,

and as Matt said, a flip switch and tied into when the key is "ON"  -

BUT NOT directly into the ignition circuit - that could affect the strength/quality of spark at the points & plugs !

 

https://www.amazon.com/Carter-P4070-Line-Electric-Fuel/dp/B000CIQ5DG/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1AH61YV53B1JQ&keywords=12+volt+fuel+pumps+carter&qid=1671685052&s=automotive&sprefix=12+volt+fuel+pumps+carter%2Cautomotive%2C386&sr=1-2

 

https://www.amazon.com/Carter-P4594-Line-Electric-Fuel/dp/B000CIQ5E0/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1AH61YV53B1JQ&keywords=12+volt+fuel+pumps+carter&qid=1671685156&s=automotive&sprefix=12+volt+fuel+pumps+carter%2Cautomotive%2C386&sr=1-4

 

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-p4594?seid=srese1&gclid=Cj0KCQiA-oqdBhDfARIsAO0TrGH86qoC2m1tBRvHsFSa46eH5ks6H9cGKLJE_Rw_K_R4P1EjuMJPMRMaAvk2EALw_wcB

 

https://www.autozone.com/fuel-systems/universal-fuel-pump/p/delphi-universal-fuel-pump-electric/771680_0_0?cmpid=PLA:US:EN:AD:NL:1000000:IEN:8362333323&gclid=Cj0KCQiA-oqdBhDfARIsAO0TrGEWC57jhiqKQeGVEWZsYK3ayYfMFUKc9Aw0BF5W3QjikV0ufukmePgaApE0EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Edited December 23, 2022 by Marty Roth
typo, and additional note (see edit history)

[Chry54]

my flathead 6 was acting the same. i had the carb professionally rebuilt and now it starts easy with one pump of the gas pedal. can take a little longer if i have not used the car for a while, but nothing like the difficult starting i used to have. i had to resort to putting gas in the carb, but no more. i use non ethanol almost always. my fuel pump was rebuilt about ten years ago, no electric pump in line.   capt den

[pont35cpe]

Try pumping the gas pedal a couple times before turning the ignition on.

[Buick35]

I drilled a small 1/8" hole in the top of my air cleaner and just squirt a little gas down it when I want to start it on my 35 buick. It starts right up then. I wonder if anyone tried plumbing a small tube from the dash to the carb. intake to spray or pump gas from the inside.I know outboard boat motors have primer pumps.It would have to be period looking possibly made out of brass,any thoughts? I tried the electric pump but I didn't notice much of a diference.Greg

[JamesR]

You might look for signs of fuel weeping at carb and fuel pump when:

- Car is running cold

- running warm/hot

- after you've shut the car off

 

You could also disconnect the fuel line at the carb when the engine's cold and see what the discharge is like while cranking the starter. Ten minutes is obviously way too long to crank but I can go a month or so between starts and it'll take 30-45 seconds or so to start my carburetored cars. I couldn't say whether that's typical or normal, but it's a common thing for many old cars I've owned. My T-Bird starts in less time...I put a new fuel pump on it several hundred miles ago (or maybe there's another reason.) I don't know about plumbing a line to the interior for priming as Buick35 said...possible safety issues.

Edited December 22, 2022 by JamesR (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Mechanical pumps don't work well if there are tiny leaks on the suction side.  They might not pick up the fuel but pump ok once the engine is running after priming. I ,also, like an electric pump.

 

  Ben

Edited December 22, 2022 by Ben Bruce aka First Born (see edit history)

[MrY]

2 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Mechanical pumps don't work well if there are tiny leaks on the suction side.  They might not pick up the fuel but pump ok once the engine is running after priming. I ,also, like an electric pump.

 

  Ben

Ok that make sense .... I will try to look for some leak and tighten the bolts and clams ./thx

[MrY]

Winter startup of my -56 Buick and -57 Chevy......

Buick has an electric fuel pump in the rear I heard when turning on the ignition

Let it sit for a minute to prime the carburetor then pump 4 times and it starts right up.

I see the original fuel pump is removed and a block plate in place.

 

The 57 Chevy has a cheap Chines $12 fuel pump to prime the carburetor and then the Mechanical fuel pump takes over

This one too started right up after priming the carb and pump 4 times

 

Now they can sit for another 2 months before we do a new start - battery tender on while sleeping

thx

[MrY]

3 hours ago, JamesR said:

You might look for signs of fuel weeping at carb and fuel pump when:

- Car is running cold

- running warm/hot

- after you've shut the car off

 

You could also disconnect the fuel line at the carb when the engine's cold and see what the discharge is like while cranking the starter. Ten minutes is obviously way too long to crank but I can go a month or so between starts and it'll take 30-45 seconds or so to start my carburetor cars. I couldn't say whether that's typical or normal, but it's a common thing for many old cars I've owned. My T-Bird starts in less time...I put a new fuel pump on it several hundred miles ago (or maybe there's another reason.) I don't know about plumbing a line to the interior for priming as Buick35 said...possible safety issues.

Good pump .... I will give a try next time I try to start ie to disconnect the fuel line just before the carb and see if any fuel actually is coming or the fuel pump has problem to get a suction ie the membranes are toast and heading for a rebuild or replacement fuel pump.

[MrY]

6 hours ago, pont35cpe said:

Try pumping the gas pedal a couple times before turning the ignition on.

I tried that ... believe me ... but after sitting for a while I guess there is no gas in the carburetor to squirt down .... 

And I crank way more than I want to and what's normal and I don't want to wear out the battery or the starter

Giving it a slurp of 'whisky' always do the trick

but I am tired of going out and open the hood and off with the air cleaner and look for the gas can etc

[EmTee]

I can literally hear the fuel boiling in the carburetor bowl of my '38 Buick after a drive.  I have an electric pump that I run for 10~15 seconds before initial startup after sitting idle for a day or more.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

I know most do not agree. But once again, todays gas is formulated to be under pressure.   Made for EFI.   It will NEVER perform satisfactorily every time in a carburetor.    Under hood heat is hard on the gas. 

 

  Ben

[edinmass]

 

Years ago they sold gasoline........today they sell fuel.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Agree!  Sorta.    Years ago is relative.  50? 100?  I guess the refiners have worked with the auto industry and visa versa over time.   And I , for one, chose not to fight them.  Hence my use of the " alternative " fuel system in my Buick.  Hot weather or cold, has never failed .

 

  Ben 

[avgwarhawk]

My 54 264 with Carter carb is similar.   Once running it will start no problem after 2-3 days sitting.  Leave it sit for a week and it will need to be turned over several times for the fuel pump to fill the carb bowl.  She will start.  It is worse in the summer since the hot engine and air let the fuel boil off.   Winter time not so much.   The fuel lasts in the bowl longer.  I have a fuel pump that was rebuilt about 3 years ago.   I rebuilt the carb I think last year.   I can say that the spinning over the engine does build oil pressure. That is good if she has been sitting a long time. 

 

My 60 with a Rochester is also the same as my 54.  Sits a long time, cranking time extended to get fuel to the carb.    She has a complete new fuel pump.  The carb was rebuilt last year.    

 

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

I don’t see the problem,  you know this is how the car acts. So put a switched electric fuel pump in it if it sits for a week turn on the pump turn on the key. Let the pump run for a few seconds you will hear the ticking slow down. Then try to start it, the line from the mechanical fuel pump to the bowl will fill up and the carb will then have fuel/gas ( ode to Ed ) to start. If your battery goes south that quickly get a new battery or sort out the car better. 
dave s 

[Marty Roth]

On 12/22/2022 at 11:58 AM, Buick35 said:

I drilled a small 1/8" hole in the top of my air cleaner and just squirt a little gas down it when I want to start it on my 35 buick. It starts right up then. I wonder if anyone tried plumbing a small tube from the dash to the carb. intake to spray or pump gas from the inside.I know outboard boat motors have primer pumps.It would have to be period looking possibly made out of brass,any thoughts? I tried the electric pump but I didn't notice much of a diference.Greg

Hey Greg,

 

Interesting thought, but seems there could be a safety concern here - say maybe a backfire, or fumes? Then maybe add a checkvalve? Just spitballin', but the inline electric pump seems a reasonable approach, and not modify the dash?

[MrY]

Today I asked by wife to crank the care while I was looking at the clear glass filter if I could see any gasoline going through

The car has been sitting for about a month now

 

The first second of crank I saw gasoline being pumped through the glass so the fuel pump is doing it's work

I did see some dirt being shoveled around inside the glass but it should not prevent the car from starting

 

But I see it has to pump up gasoline in the fuel line about 2 feet before it reaches the carburetor and then it has to full the bowl so it could take a while before it gets there.

An electric fuel pump would solve this problem if it allow to pressure it through the mechanical fuel pump before I give it a try to start

 

Then of course the battery ran low and I was not able to get the car running today

I cleaned out the dirt in the glass filter and will give it a new shot tomorrow

Still having an extra bottle with gasoline to pour down the carburetor to get the car starting and to get the mechanical fuel pump run faster ....

thx

 

[EmTee]

If the check valve in the pump holds, only the fuel bowl should need to be filled.  If the filter sight glass was empty, that suggests that in addition to fuel evaporating from the carburetor, it is also draining from the fuel line back to the tank.  How old is the pump?  Some of the dirt seen inside the filter could be fouling the pump.  Might be advisable to rebuild the pump and add a filter ahead of the pump.

[MrY]

The filter is ahead of the pump ie filter before it goes into the pump so clean gas should go in, then you are right the check valve / back flow valve could be old and worn out, and the fuel in the 2 feet line before carburetor probably slips through the fuel pump back to the tank of it's own gravity and the check valve doesn't hold more than 2-3 days. Fuel pump was on the car when I bought it and I have not history on how old it is or if it ever have been replaced or rebuild. For now I have to give it a sip of gasoline to quick start the old Buick  /thx

[Grimy]

I'd rebuild the pump on general principles.  Rebuild service and/or kits, both with materials resistant to ethanol, are available from Then & Now Automotive in Weymouth, MA (Google them).  Their turn-around time is fast, less then 5 business days, and I almost always send them the pump to rebuild, as they have folks doing nothing but pumps all day every day.  Wire onto the pump a tag with your name and cell phone number, and the specific application (year, make, model of car).  When the pump is done, they will call you and get a credit card number.  I've never been disappointed in their work or service.

 

While the pump is off, I'd replace the flex line between the pump and the hard line from the tank.  The flex lines rot from the inside out and a tiny air leak, not enough to cause a *fuel* leak, can cause the problems you've experienced.  Do NOT buy old NORS lacquered-cloth flex lines, which are leaks waiting to happen.  Try a hydraulic hose service in your area (take in the old part) and I recommend braided stainless steel for the outer covering.  You can make it look original (lacquered-cloth) by taping off the fittings and giving it about 5 or 6 coats of rattle-can black paint.  While the last coat is tacky, just touch the soft paint with a red shop towel to impart the lacquered-cloth appearance.

 

Now you're good for the next 15 years!

[EmTee]

On 12/24/2022 at 1:55 PM, Grimy said:

You can make it look original (lacquered-cloth) by taping off the fittings and giving it about 5 or 6 coats of rattle-can black paint.  While the last coat is tacky, just touch the soft paint with a red shop towel to impart the lacquered-cloth appearance.

I'm writing that one down... 

[Grimy]

2 minutes ago, EmTee said:

I'm writing that one down... 

Thanks, EmTee!  Somewhat-funny story, at least to me:  My good friend Bob J judged my 1934 Pierce on its first time out after acquisition and gigged me one point for the braided stainless flex hose installed by the previous owner (fair enough).  He visited a month later and I said, "I took that point deduction to heart and I've fixed it." Thereupon I opened the hood and showed him the "fixed" hose as described above.  He asked, what did you do?  And I replied that I had substituted one of those funky old hoses we see at swap meets for 50 cents each.  He asked, "But is it safe?"  I said, "Who cares if it's safe!  I don't want you to take a point off next time!"  He nearly had a heart attack, but I waited 15 minutes before telling him how I changed the appearance of the braided stainless hose.

[rocketraider]

Please please please get rid of this thing before it sets your car on fire!😬 They're known to crack, leak and sometimes fail under fuel pump pressure. With ugly results.

 

 

If you want a clear fuel filter get a clear plastic one. A metal-bodied one is better.

[avgwarhawk]

Concur. The glass filter you are using is poorly made. 

[JACK M]

I have to squirt a bit of gas in several of my cars on startup after long periods of being parked.

It is part of the process.

I think that cranking the fuel up will dramatically shorten the life of the starter.

The few moments of opening the hood and I usually only have to loosen the wing nut and fill the cavity under it, this sounds easier and cheaper than changing a starter.

Once it's running, I always let it warm up a bit so take that time to tighten the wing nut and close the hood.

I would not be opposed to an electric pump properly installed and wired, but I would have to install several.

[Bob Pas]

With my 51 Plymouth as someone has said. I will pump the peddle at least 10 or more times and then crank it over. If it doesn't start I repeat with about 10 more pumps and crank it over. I have same issue if it sits for a couple of weeks without starting. If it's started every couple of days it starts right up on 1st crank

[avgwarhawk]

Back in the day.... different gas and cars driven every day. 

[George Smolinski]

On 12/23/2022 at 7:43 AM, edinmass said:

 

Years ago they sold gasoline........today they sell fuel.

Calling it fuel is a stretch. My ‘66 Impala is running a 468 with 10:1 compression. Now, it will run well on premium unleaded, but I can still buy 108 octane leaded gasoline, so I run that. What a sweet smell of the exhaust burning the 108.

[MrY]

“It never rains in California” they sing -- yeah right it’s been flooded lately.

Took the Big Green out today for a spin, the first cruise in 2023.

My new invention to avoid the continuing cranking

was a $1 bottle from Dollar store + $1 plastic tube

Which I put down the carburetor while I started cranking

I started squirting /pumping  down gasoline in the carb from the drivers seat

until it ran by itself and the fuel pump had filled the line with new gasoline and was pumping on it's own.

No more wearing out the battery.

[MCHinson]

I think you have proven that getting some fresh fuel to the carburetor is the answer. I would encourage you to add an auxiliary electric fuel pump so that you can safely do that. Your current solution will work, but spraying gas into the top of the carburetor via a spray bottle and plastic hose has a lot more of a chance of something going wrong and starting a fire. 

[EmTee]

I'd be concerned about what might happen if a backfire through the carburetor occurs while using this device...

[Bloo]

How long does the car typically sit before it needs help? If it's a few days, I would look into putting a pump in the back and a switch. I have been resistant to the idea, after going to a lot of trouble to fix my fuel pickup, verify there is no air leakage anywhere, etc. The more connections and devices you have the more likely it is you will have an air leak somewhere. I daily drive it except in winter, so only have to crank fuel up (or figure a way to fill the carb) once a year.

 

Good advice here though, I wouldn't want that hose full of gas leading back to me. Priming and starting by adding fuel down the carb throat is very hazardous. If you must prime it, it is better to manually fill the bowl through the bowl vent if you can access it. Starting the car with the air filter housing off is asking for a fire and not recommended. Never do that. Always put it back on before cranking.

 

P.S. A carb that catches fire from a backfire while cranking can often be put out if you keep cranking especially if engine starts. I have seen that several times long ago.

 

P.P.S. Never do any of this indoors.

 

 

[avgwarhawk]

If my 54 has trouble starting after a long sitting spell I use a shot glass with very little gasoline. I pour it in the carb. Being our Buicks use a vacuum switch I leave the ignition to on/run.  I then pour the small amount of gas in the carb.  Now it's as simple as working the throttle by hand to the start position.  The less than full shot glass of gasoline is enough to start the engine immediately and run long enough to have the pump start pushing gasoline.  

Edited January 22, 2023 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[MrY]

Usually the car sits for 2 week I having this long cranking problem getting it started - if sits for less than 3 day no problem.

 

I been considering putting in a fuel pump to push / prime the carb before I start it - still keeping the stock mechanical fuel pump.

 

But I don't have a lift to see where is a good place to place it - I been looking at some picture I have of the car

and it looks like there is only a flex rubber fuel line at rear tank and one at the front suspension and between there is' all a steel line

Where do you guys who done it place it .... cut the steel line at the frame and reconnect with rubber fuel lines ?

or put it at the rear between the tank outlet and the steel long fuel line tube ? 

and

Which fuel pump is better than the other .... I have bad experience with the golden one that sized up and stopped pumping when it got hot

and then if the car sat for 15 min it started to work again and I could get out on the freeway to get the car stop with no gas in carb

I thought it was dirt in the fuel tank cause if I took the fuel line at the carb and blow it with my mouth (yes that is what I did) and I could hear the bubbles in the tank and after that it started every time .... yes because I blow and cooled down the fuel pump so it could spin for another 15 min .... I ended up selling the 'stupid' car and past on the problem to the new owner who changed the fuel tank and still same problem and then he decided to test the fuel pump that seamed to be working ... but he found out after running for a while it just stopped pumping and it was seized up .... if you waited a while it started to work again for 15 min .....  

 

 

[MCHinson]

I don't think you will find a rubber hose at the tank. Typically, you cut a short section out of the metal line between the fuel tank and the frame rail, flare the cut ends and install the electric pump there with flare fittings. It needs to be close to the tank. You could also just use rubber hoses to connect the pump there, but keeping the line all metal would be better using flare fittings. Either style pump should work, but you typically get what you pay for. A cheaper pump is typically built cheaper and more likely to fail.

Edited January 23, 2023 by MCHinson (see edit history)

[old-tank]

Use at least 12 gauge wire from the front to the back.  14 gauge wire will result in voltage drop causing early failure of  any pump.

[Century Eight]

All good suggestions, but after having a known good fuel pump ( have used Terrill Machine works in TX several times, that’s where many of the suppliers like Bob’s , Cars, Kanters, etc send theirs to when you send them for rebuild anyway),  I would then certainly have the carb rebuilt.  Over the years, (48) with my 50 Buick, I have done the prime the carb with gas bit after the car sits for several weeks.   However after rebuilding the carb, the car now can sit for maybe three weeks or more and keep enough fuel to start on its own with no help.  I have never installed an auxiliary electric fuel pump.

 

However on my “40, same deal, it is really more of a production to start after a long sit.  (More than 7 days).  So last year, after crapping out on the road with vapor lock, I installed one of those small electric pumps back close to the gas tank.  Now after 15-20 seconds of priming, it starts up after about thirty seconds of cranking.  No running down the battery, no wear on the starter, and no worrying about blowing up the garage.  It is my hope, that I will never see vapor lock again, and if I do, a flick of the pump for a few seconds should keep me from being embarrassed on the side of the road.  Today’s e-gas is a game changer, you cant always get the good stuff.  

Edited March 2, 2023 by Century Eight (see edit history)