6v Battery - poor starting issues.

[Nicole F]

2 hours ago, john hess said:

Also guys, and ladies.... this battery is hooked up as (+) ground... look at photo closely... not familiar with 49 ford, or positive ground.... but if its correct, do you still hook (-) negative (black) wire from charger to (-) negative post on battery ?

Hi John. Yeah, it threw me a bit too - I’m not familiar with this configuration and it looks backwards. So l followed the directions on the tender which stated for positive grounded batteries, that’s the proper hook-up. And it worked! The battery is now finally fully charged (green light indicator). 

[Nicole F]

4 hours ago, MCHinson said:

Welcome to the AACA Discussion Forum. As has been stated above, in a 6 volt system, clean tight connections in all of the electrical connections are very important. The charging system must also be putting out adequate current to charge the battery, and the battery has to be in good shape.

 

A couple of additional suggestions for you. First, I suggest you buy a factory shop manual for your car. It will help you as you learn more about the car's systems. It will also help answer the question of where the ground wire should be connected, although I think it is correct for a 46 Ford, despite that not being where most cars would have the ground cable connected. Youtube is also going to be a great help.

 

Most importantly, join a local Antique Automobile Club of America Region. You should find local members who will be able and willing to help you learn more about maintaining your antique car. This forum is great but there is nothing else that is as helpful as a local experienced old car hobbyist who can meet you in person and help you learn about old cars. While there are not many regions out west, in Portland, you are not too far from a local region. The AACA website shows the following:

 

Region

Fort Vancouver/Rose City Region

First Name

Dave

Last Name

Newland

Address

9008 NE 101st St

City

Vancouver

State

WA

Zip

98662-1959

Country

USA

Email

royalmail17@aol.com

 

Thank you!! Vancouver is just over the river from us so it’s basically part of greater Portland. I am a hands on visual learner so it’s ideal to learn from someone in person. We have signed up for a local Ford show in June, and I’m hoping to connect with people there as well. I did look for local clubs but didn’t find anything that fits. 

[Nicole F]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

This.

 

I think that 75% of all starter problems with six Volt systems end up being the wrong cables.

 

Also, the alternator conversion gives me pause.

Thanks! Re the alternator conversion… how so? 

[Cadillac Nut]

17 hours ago, Nicole F said:

Thank you! Now if I only knew what all of those other parts look like. Lol. I am VERY new at this so I really don’t even have a basic understanding of the parts of a car engine. I wish there was some sort of classic car training courses (YouTube tutorials?) so I could learn how to troubleshoot and do basic repairs. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Join the 'Classic Car restoration club"  It costs a few bucks a month, they have excellent in depth videos on everything from simple to high advanced things, I have learned a lot of stuff through there 

[Nicole F]

32 minutes ago, Cadillac Nut said:

Join the 'Classic Car restoration club"  It costs a few bucks a month, they have excellent in depth videos on everything from simple to high advanced things, I have learned a lot of stuff through there 

Fantastic! Thank you!!

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, Nicole F said:

Thanks! Re the alternator conversion… how so? 

When the cars were originally engineered there was a lot of thought and work into making them run correctly. Over the years people would modify them for various reasons. Often you will see guys having trouble, and the problem is traced back to a modification. The Alternator may be working fine, but it is a change to it the way the electrical system was originally designed. Sometimes there are unintended consequences elsewhere. 

[rocketraider]

First thing I'd do is relocate the ground cable. Move the ground cable connection from firewall to either a frame rail or a starter mounting bolt. You can keep a braided ground strap or change to a heavy gauge (0 or 00 gauge) cable.

 

Looking at the alternator in the other thread, looks like the belt may be a little loose which can cause charging issues. Make sure it IS a 6v alternator and set up for positive ground applications.

 

With engine running, use a multimeter to measure alternator output voltage at the output terminal; look for 6.5-8 volts. Then measure voltage at the battery (-) post with engine running. Voltage at battery should be same as at the alternator.

 

1940s Fords are overall simple cars to own and repair unless someone has been in it messing. Good luck and enjoy your super-duper-double-deluxe Ford! (that's what my Uncle Edd always called his '41!)

[Nicole F]

1 minute ago, alsancle said:

When the cars were originally engineered there was a lot of thought and work into making them run correctly. Over the years people would modify them for various reasons. Often you will see guys having trouble, and the problem is traced back to a modification. The Alternator may be working fine, but it is a change to it the way the electrical system was originally designed. Sometimes there are unintended consequences elsewhere. 

Interesting! I love the fact that the car is mostly stock but I really want to change out the brakes (from drum to disk) for safety reasons. I hate the braking, it’s kinda scary. We also ordered new tires - those little skinny ones are squirrely! 

[JACK M]

I can make up OO battery cables to custom length and am fairly local to you.

If you would like to discuss this send me a private message.

As suggested above, I would run the ground (positive cable in this instance) to the block and another from the block to body and another from the block to the chassis.

I have seen weak grounds do some pretty weird things.

[Nicole F]

9 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

First thing I'd do is relocate the ground cable. Move the ground cable connection from firewall to either a frame rail or a starter mounting bolt. You can keep a braided ground strap or change to a heavy gauge (0 or 00 gauge) cable.

 

Looking at the alternator in the other thread, looks like the belt may be a little loose which can cause charging issues. Make sure it IS a 6v alternator and set up for positive ground applications.

 

With engine running, use a multimeter to measure alternator output voltage at the output terminal; look for 6.5-8 volts. Then measure voltage at the battery (-) post with engine running. Voltage at battery should be same as at the alternator.

 

1940s Fords are overall simple cars to own and repair unless someone has been in it messing. Good luck and enjoy your super-duper-double-deluxe Ford! (that's what my Uncle Edd always called his '41!)

Thank you!! I just bought this battery tester, can I use it to test the alternator or do I need an actual multimeter? 

[alsancle]

21 minutes ago, Nicole F said:

Interesting! I love the fact that the car is mostly stock but I really want to change out the brakes (from drum to disk) for safety reasons. I hate the braking, it’s kinda scary. We also ordered new tires - those little skinny ones are squirrely! 

The brakes as originally designed are fine for That car. It’s kind of the same point I made about the alternator. There’s no need for disc brakes. Just need to get the original brakes rebuilt correctly.

[trimacar]

I agree, the stock brakes are fine, if in good condition and adjusted properly, and changing to a different system is an unnecessary expense.

 

People say “oh, but they fade after a couple of hard stops”.

 

The best answer I’ve heard to that is, if you have to make more than one hard stop, it’s a driver problem, not a brake problem….

[Nicole F]

17 minutes ago, alsancle said:

The brakes as originally designed are fine for That car. It’s kind of the same point I made about the alternator. There’s no need for disc brakes. Just need to get the original brakes rebuilt correctly.

That’s good to know! Because I’d rather not spend $2,800 on a brake conversion  if I don’t have to! That was the quote I got from the local classic car mechanic. I have an appointment on July 5th and I’ll have them take a look at the brakes to see if they can recalibrate them to work better. 

[TerryB]

Snooping around the internet it appears the braided ground cable to the firewall is how Ford originally did things in 1946.  The pics I found showed what appears to be a more robust (larger) ground cable than the one on this car.  For sure the connection at the firewall has to be as clean and secure as possible.

Edited May 22, 2022 by TerryB (see edit history)

[Walt G]

42 minutes ago, trimacar said:

I agree, the stock brakes are fine, if in good condition and adjusted properly, and changing to a different system is an unnecessary expense.

 

People say “oh, but they fade after a couple of hard stops”.

 

The best answer I’ve heard to that is, if you have to make more than one hard stop, it’s a driver problem, not a brake problem….

I totally agree with this! If it worked when new and did for decades then it is up to the driver to adapt to what it is like to drive a car of that era.

There are a few ( many?) of us here that have owned and driven pre WWII era cars for over 50 years. Some with hydraulic brakes some with mechanical ( cable operated) brakes.( some cars have brakes on only the rear wheels - not all four, and some a brake on the transmission only)  If the brakes are adjusted well by someone who knows exactly what they are doing they will stop fine. Tires the same, yes they are narrow compared to the modern ones, but also stop well if properly inflated and not dried out.

WELCOME to the world of older cars - very nice to see a female participating and wanting to know more ! 👍👍👍

[rocketraider]

1 hour ago, Nicole F said:

Thank you!! I just bought this battery tester, can I use it to test the alternator or do I need an actual multimeter? 

If it will measure voltage or if it has an alternator output test function, you can use it.

[john hess]

what Walt G said....!!! 100%..... my 53 pontiac is "as built" and performs just fine..... bias tires will earn your respect quickly on wet, smooth roads..... asphalt or concrete.... Remember, most of these cars grew up on dirt roads and consequently, slower speeds.... no need for instant stopping..... besides, slow down and enjoy the ride !!!    I have other toys for raising my fear (pucker) factor ..!!

[Nicole F]

1 minute ago, john hess said:

what Walt G said....!!! 100%..... my 53 pontiac is "as built" and performs just fine..... bias tires will earn your respect quickly on wet, smooth roads..... asphalt or concrete.... Remember, most of these cars grew up on dirt roads and consequently, slower speeds.... no need for instant stopping..... besides, slow down and enjoy the ride !!!    I have other toys for raising my fear (pucker) factor ..!!

I live in a busy suburb with tons of street traffic, so even if I allow plenty of room in between me and the cars in front of me, people use it as an opportunity to cut in, etc. which necessitates a quick stop sometimes. I ride a big Harley so I know how to manage other people’s bad driving, but my Harley is far more agile and has ABS. I am of the same mind that original is better - I love the idea of experiencing the car the way it was experienced when my grandmother was driving. But I also want to avoid (even minor) accidents. I’m definitely still getting used to driving her, so maybe it’s just a matter of experience and I’ll feel more confident over time. I will get the brakes checked though, to make sure they are performing as well as they can. 

[Grimy]

@Nicole F this AACA site has members who keep their cars stock, for the experience of driving as it was done then, despite our recognition that technological improvements have made performance in acceleration, braking, and cornering better since our cars were built.  Less-than-current standards of performance and economy are acceptable.  My 1918 and 1922 cars have brakes on only TWO wheels!  People who want modern performance with an old-style body go the modified route--that's not us!

 

When I was younger than you (a very long time ago), I had a 1948 Ford 4-door sedan and a 1947 2-door sedan.  So my question is what kind of experience do you want to have with your 1946 Ford convertible (which I would have loved to have had!)?  I'm all for improving reliability, but these cars were reliable when they were new.  My improvements for reliability on my own cars are (1) a supplemental electric fuel pump to compensate for 10%-ethanol gas for vapor-lock conditions and for priming when I haven't started the car for a week or more, and (2) additional or upgraded grounding cables as suggested by others above.  Your Ford's transverse suspension means that it will never corner like even a mid-1950s car.  I'm glad you're staying with the flathead V8.

 

My caution is that whenever any of us modifies anything at all from stock, we should create a binder with parts numbers for anything modified--because in 10 years under yours or someone else's ownership, what alternator do you ask for at the parts store?  There will never be a listing for an alternator for a 1946 Ford at NAPA.  That binder needs to be carried with you on trips in case of breakdown.  Or it could be a spreadsheet or Word document on your phone.

[Nicole F]

14 minutes ago, Grimy said:

@Nicole F this AACA site has members who keep their cars stock, for the experience of driving as it was done then, despite our recognition that technological improvements have made performance in acceleration, braking, and cornering better since our cars were built.  Less-than-current standards of performance and economy are acceptable.  My 1918 and 1922 cars have brakes on only TWO wheels!  People who want modern performance with an old-style body go the modified route--that's not us!

 

When I was younger than you (a very long time ago), I had a 1948 Ford 4-door sedan and a 1947 2-door sedan.  So my question is what kind of experience do you want to have with your 1946 Ford convertible (which I would have loved to have had!)?  I'm all for improving reliability, but these cars were reliable when they were new.  My improvements for reliability on my own cars are (1) a supplemental electric fuel pump to compensate for 10%-ethanol gas for vapor-lock conditions and for priming when I haven't started the car for a week or more, and (2) additional or upgraded grounding cables as suggested by others above.  Your Ford's transverse suspension means that it will never corner like even a mid-1950s car.  I'm glad you're staying with the flathead V8.

 

My caution is that whenever any of us modifies anything at all from stock, we should create a binder with parts numbers for anything modified--because in 10 years under yours or someone else's ownership, what alternator do you ask for at the parts store?  There will never be a listing for an alternator for a 1946 Ford at NAPA.  That binder needs to be carried with you on trips in case of breakdown.  Or it could be a spreadsheet or Word document on your phone.

Hi there! Totally agree about experiencing the car the way it was in the time it was built - that’s what it’s all about for me! Which is why I love that there are very few modifications on this car. It even came with the original manual and tool kit! Amazing! I love everything about the car. Sometimes I just sit in it for an hour and enjoy the smell. Lol. But I was told by severely people that for safety we should upgrade the tires and brakes. And even the concours shows don’t mark you down for safety modifications. (Not that we’re looking to compete there) Honestly, I would prefer to not spend the money anyway, so I’ll have the brakes checked to make sure they are 100% and just continue to driver her so I can gain more confidence.

 

I think I will try to upgrade the grounding cables - that’s actually something I may be able to do! Lol and yes, I will keep full record of everything I do. 
 

Thank you!!

[Bloo]

2 hours ago, TerryB said:

Snooping around the internet it appears the braided ground cable to the firewall is how Ford originally did things in 1946.  The pics I found showed what appears to be a more robust (larger) ground cable than the one on this car.  For sure the connection at the firewall has to be as clean and secure as possible.

 

I was wondering about that. If the cable is indeed supposed to go to the firewall, then whatever grounds the body (and firewall) to the engine/transmission needs a good looking at. I'm thinking there must be another big cable or strap.

[Xander Wildeisen]

The biggest problem with drums is surface contact of the shoe/pad to the drum. Not really a problem back in the day. Service shops had tools to shape the shoes and pads. You get a drum brake system working properly. With 100% surface contact of the brake pads on the drums. You will be able to do a dash board taste test. They really lock up. It is just a different type of car, so you drive it accordingly. Look at how many people put performance cars in the ditch. They have the best brakes out there.

[rocketraider]

8 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

Look at how many people put performance cars in the ditch. They have the best brakes out there.

High performance cars with low performance drivers... being down the road from Virginia International Raceway I see a lot of that on these two-lane county roads.

 

Nicole, try your Ford's stock brakes for a while before making a disc brake changeover. Learn to drive the car within its limits and to anticipate what a knucklehead distracted by an electronic gadget might do. Unlike with your bike, you have the advantage that they SHOULD be able to see something the size of a 1946 Ford.

[Walt G]

28 minutes ago, Nicole F said:

just continue to driver her so I can gain more confidence.

That is exactly what it is all about! Perfect reasoning. The more you drive it the more comfortable you will be and know how to deal with the idiots on the road that try to cut you off etc. You will be able to cope with that so much better when you know and accept the way your car drives and needs to be driven. There are much more parts resources etc for your Ford then there are for many of the people who commented here that own cars that stopped being made 15+ years or more before your Ford was! Have confidence , but most of all patience. We are here for you for any questions - do not hesitate to ask, there is no "stupid" questions! we all had them once and had people to help us get answers and felt comfortable to enjoy the car we owned.

[JimKB1MCV]

      My suggestion would be to buy a Motors manual covering the era of your '46 (Ebay or even a used book  store) and spend some time studying the book.

      They were produced for the non-mechanic to learn how to keep a car on the road, they cover most makes of cars and will give you a good grounding in basic electricity and how the car works.

    Drive the car carefully until you are comfortable with it. 

     Good luck.

[60FlatTop]

The insulated cable in your picture is clamped down tight. See how there is no gap where the clamping bolt goes through. The other cable has a good gap.

 

Attention to small details like that will help keep you from re-engineering most of the things that appear to be inherent problems to old cars. You need to remove that cable and take out the clamp bolt. Use a large screwdriver to spread the terminal enough to get a flat file where the gap should be. File away enough to get a good grip on the battery post and have enough gap to assure the terminal is firmly tightened. Your original problem may have been that cable connection all the time. Well sort of, the servicing person who tie wrapped your battery cable to the heater hose outlet may be the direct problem.

 

 

Be cautious about peer pressure modifications, those things you hear people blow about to show knowledge. 12 volts, disc brakes (disk breaks to many), and the like. It is a good car and about 15 years more advanced that what Henry Fonda crossed the country in when he was a migrating Okie.

 

I am thinking hard and the only modification I can think of on my cars is a few ground wires I have run. That's about it. Don't forget, the whole digital world around you is running on 5 volt processors. It gets the job done just fine.

[keithb7]

My 1948 stock 6V postive ground, generator based electrical system works just fine.  Stock brakes too. Totally adequate for vintage car cruising.  Flathead engine and remainder of the the powertrain is just fine too. 
 

Its when you decide you want to take a prewar car on the interstate and keep up, the rabbit hole begins. Upgraded brakes. Rear axle swap. LS engine swap. 12V conversion. Rack and pinion steering. More modern transmission. Radial tires. Lowered. Oversized rims. Dual exhaust.  Not sure what the point is, but to each their own. 

That ground  cable to the firewall is a bell-ringer for me. Gotta get a double ought sized ground to the block or tranny. Electricity needs the path of least resistance to work well. The entire starting motor circuit surely can’t go through the firewall and be expected to perform well. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Here is an excellent book that would cover electrical systems for your car's time period, pretty cheap, too. This is one of a five book set, each covering major systems of your basic car. In 1959 my Mom helped me buy that year's set. I still have them and refer to them occasionally. Searching the rest of the volumes by Mcgraw Hill and Crouse would get you a useful set. Keep the copyright date in the mid-1960's or earlier.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/133521181307?hash=item1f167b8a7b:g:NCEAAOSwofVfYlFC

 

You will be acquiring new knowledge through the ownership of this car. Finding specific information on the Ford is very useful at this point. You should also try to learn and observe other cars when you have the opportunity. Drawing knowledge from many applications will help you gain a deeper understanding of all related things and a clarity of how things work that you may not have expected. If you stop at the Goodwill store, a yard sale, or even perusing the cheap books on Ebay it can be quite rewarding to pick up a dollar shop manual on an unrelated car and spending the evening looking through.

 

Years ago I taught an apprenticeship program that used a large McGraw Hill textbook. I knew reading it was a sure cure for insomnia. I told the students to just page through, look at the pictures, and read the captions. They usually ended up in the paragraphs learning and staying awake.

 

Here's an ideal 1955 book: https://www.ebay.com/itm/392042465411?hash=item5b478d4883:g:BcQAAOSw75xa-Azl

[Bhigdog]

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

the whole digital world around you is running on 5 volt processors. It gets the job done just fine.

Does anyone know the initial amp draw for the average 6 V starter? I'm guessing at least 100+ A. The point is it takes big wires and clean connections to move that much current to the starter..........Bob

[maok]

9 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

Does anyone know the initial amp draw for the average 6 V starter? I'm guessing at least 100+ A. The point is it takes big wires and clean connections to move that much current to the starter..........Bob

Its more like 200-350 amps, depending on the condition of the engine and ease to start.

[Larry Schramm]

4 hours ago, Nicole F said:

Lol. But I was told by several people that for safety we should upgrade the tires and brakes. And even the concours shows don’t mark you down for safety modifications.

 

Nichole,

 

It sounds like those owners own modified vehicles.  Standard is to Chop, Channel, Small block Chevy, disc brakes on everything, change to 12 volts, etc... and the list goes on.  IMO, take their advice with a single grain of salt, if that.

 

Fix the car up to the original manufacturer's specifications as it came from the factory and you will enjoy "the experience" more than a modified car.  Also doing a bunch of modifications may give you more confidence in the car and you might be tempted to "over drive" and do some things that might be unsafe.   Just a thought. 

 

Last year alone, my Wife and I drove our 1913 Buick 1,860 miles on tours and all kind of roads, except no expressways, high speed divided highways, etc...  Our car has rear brakes only controlled by steel brake rods from the brake pedal to the rear exterior drum brakes.   Total surface area for the tire to the road is about 16 square inches.  About 8 inches square per side only on the rear tires.  That is about 2 inches x 4 inches for each tire.

 

It is good advice to keep the vehicle stock so if you are out and something breaks, any good parts manual will help you get the needed part.  If you change anything to non stock, the previous advice about getting a notebook and write every change dow.

 

The more you drive the car, the more you will become comfortable with your driving skills and how to drive defensively.  When someone cuts in front of you, just put the space between you and the person that cut in front of you.

 

Just, ENJOY THE RIDE as it was in day.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Nicole F]

2 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Here is an excellent book that would cover electrical systems for your car's time period, pretty cheap, too. This is one of a five book set, each covering major systems of your basic car. In 1959 my Mom helped me buy that year's set. I still have them and refer to them occasionally. Searching the rest of the volumes by Mcgraw Hill and Crouse would get you a useful set. Keep the copyright date in the mid-1960's or earlier.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/133521181307?hash=item1f167b8a7b:g:NCEAAOSwofVfYlFC

 

You will be acquiring new knowledge through the ownership of this car. Finding specific information on the Ford is very useful at this point. You should also try to learn and observe other cars when you have the opportunity. Drawing knowledge from many applications will help you gain a deeper understanding of all related things and a clarity of how things work that you may not have expected. If you stop at the Goodwill store, a yard sale, or even perusing the cheap books on Ebay it can be quite rewarding to pick up a dollar shop manual on an unrelated car and spending the evening looking through.

 

Years ago I taught an apprenticeship program that used a large McGraw Hill textbook. I knew reading it was a sure cure for insomnia. I told the students to just page through, look at the pictures, and read the captions. They usually ended up in the paragraphs learning and staying awake.

 

Here's an ideal 1955 book: https://www.ebay.com/itm/392042465411?hash=item5b478d4883:g:BcQAAOSw75xa-Azl

Thank you! Just bought both! 😊

[MCHinson]

I would again urge you to buy a factory service manual. There is no book as helpful as the manufacturer's original repair instructions that are specifically for your car. There are multiple inexpensive ones on ebay. Here is one example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/255537600435?hash=item3b7f3a57b3:g:1M0AAOSw6CtigWXm 

[Nicole F]

4 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

I would again urge you to buy a factory service manual. There is no book as helpful as the manufacturer's original repair instructions that are specifically for your car. There are multiple inexpensive ones on ebay. Here is one example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/255537600435?hash=item3b7f3a57b3:g:1M0AAOSw6CtigWXm 

Thanks! Bought that one too!

[60FlatTop]

This terminal shows "a little help from above" like it was pounded on to make the connection many times. It is the first thing to address. Even after the car got started from whacking it the connection was probably loose enough to oxidize the contact surfaces. I bet you can take it off with a twist of your hand.

[ipeeforward]

Looks like the retaining nut needs to be undone and a screw driver used to open up the gap in the terminal, it should slide further down the battery post then. Don’t over tighten it after as the terminal is easily distorted.

[rocketraider]

Looks like 1) it's as far on the post as it will go and 2) someone's peened it trying to make better connections.

 

I'd be more inclined to replace the entire cable. NAPA or a farm or tractor supply store ought to have a heavy gauge cable suitable for 6v systems.

 

One of these is a handy thing for battery service too. Any auto parts store or Harbor Freight should have it. It cleans the battery posts and the inside of the terminal so you get bright metal for the connection.

[rocketraider]

One of these too. It spreads the terminal open so it will fully seat on the battery post and does a neater job than a screwdriver. 

[rocketraider]

And if ya REALLY want to go hardcore, a battery terminal puller!

 

 

I had to replace my 1975 vintage puller last year when it basically fell apart. I'd had it since auto tech school. The instructor, Mr Comer, noticed us using hammers, screwdrivers, pry bars, big pliers etc to remove stubborn battery terminals and got the Cornwell Tools jobber to bring enough pullers for all his first-year students.

 

He was a good man and mentor. Hundreds of his former students attended his funeral.

[PONTIAC1953]

On 5/22/2022 at 8:54 AM, charlespetty said:

I once melted a pair of jumper cables jumping a six volt car with a twelve volt car.  Not recommended!

sounds like your jumper cables were not very well made, too small gauge of wire to handle the amount of ampere.