Toyota overtakes GM as the bestselling automaker in the US.

[RansomEli]

I drove a 1970 AMC Hornet for 16 years.  Thought it was very reliable until I replaced it with a 1986 Toyota Camry. The engineering of the Toyota was far above anything I had driven. 

 

I now own 6 Toyotas; each one has been remarkably reliable. In fact, one of them is now eligible for AACA membership: 1997 Paseo Convertible. Can't wait to start posting about it in the Classics forum on this site (only joking - I would never).

 

Owning Toyotas has freed time to work on my three Franklins. 

 

P.S. My late father-in-law served in WWII and was briefly held as a POW by the Japanese. He never  complained about anyone owning a Japanese car. I can understand other viewpoints, however.

[63RedBrier]

Pfeil & Everyone!  If you have not already done so, I highly encourage you to watch the documentary on Netflix entitled, "The Factory."  It features two big players in this discussion, GM and China.  Think BIG PICTURE and 50 to 100 years into the future when only our heirs are still here.  I may even start a separate discussion about this film!  Be safe and wary...  Greg

[Pfeil]

3 hours ago, 63RedBrier said:

Pfeil & Everyone!  If you have not already done so, I highly encourage you to watch the documentary on Netflix entitled, "The Factory."  It features two big players in this discussion, GM and China.  Think BIG PICTURE and 50 to 100 years into the future when only our heirs are still here.  I may even start a separate discussion about this film!  Be safe and wary...  Greg

Called "American Factory"  But first! know the people who made the film including the production company and who owns it.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[Bleach]

I was shopping for a 4X4 pick up a couple of years ago. I found a nice '07 Toyota Tundra. It was OK but it but I realized it was too big as a daily driver. The gas mileage was also also pretty bad. I made a decent amount of money when I sold it last summer. I still needed a 4X4 and recently  found a '91 Toyota Xtra-cab pickup 4X4 with a V6 and 5 speed. I bought it from the original owner with only 140K miles. It's great little truck that was well maintained. It's feels a bit small after the Tundra but it's a blast to drive. The fuel mileage is better but still not great. I guess Toyota trucks aren't known for great fuel economy but more for reliability.

I tried looking for a GM or Ford of the same era and type but there were few to be found. I did however see a good selection in the local self service wrecking yard. No Toyota pickups though.

 

[wws944]

Didn't help that, with the exception of Camaro and Corvette, GM basically doesn't sell passenger cars anymore.  Just SUVs and trucks.

 

Things like paint and intake manifold gasket problems were pretty bad on GM products in the '90s and into the 2000s.  Amazing it took them so long to address the issues.  But we've been pretty pleased with our 2016 Volt.  Speaking of which, they were extremely slow to get into hybrid power trains.  They should have done a lot more with Voltec than they did...

[1932 plymouth pb sedan]

30 minutes ago, wws944 said:

Didn't help that, with the exception of Camaro and Corvette, GM basically doesn't sell passenger cars anymore.  Just SUVs and trucks.

 

Things like paint and intake manifold gasket problems were pretty bad on GM products in the '90s and into the 2000s.  Amazing it took them so long to address the issues.  But we've been pretty pleased with our 2016 Volt.  Speaking of which, they were extremely slow to get into hybrid power trains.  They should have done a lot more with Voltec than they did...

It is funny that you mention the intake manifold gasket problems, I worked for an independent repair shop in the 90s and we worked on everything, over the years I probably changed a hundred gasket sets on GM v6 and v8 engines. The gaskets were molded plastic with permatex type inserts around the coolant, intake and exhaust manifold ports, the GM original gaskets were notched in the plastic around the coolant ports to prematurely fail in a short period of time. Was this done on purpose for the dealers to generate service $ ?, I'm sure many auto manufactures did and still build to fail intentionally. Eventually Felpro came out with a replacement gasket that was built without the "notches" and lasted forever.

[mrspeedyt]

i bought my first new car in the 80s. a honda. after a clutch failure (not the clutch lining) my next new car was a toyota p/u. excellent service for over 220000 miles. then a new prius. excellent service. i’m on my third toyota. still going good. the only thing about these toyota’s is they are boring cars. no feeling. like my kitchen  appliances. 

[39BuickEight]

A Pontiac, a Buick, and a Chevrolet compose my “collectible” car fleet.  My company car is a Chevrolet Traverse.  I love GM.  That said, my wife’s daily is a 2002 Acura (Honda).  GM didn’t make a perfectly-sized 7 seater that drove as well and fit our needs at the time.  It’s been a great vehicle, though no more reliable or trouble-free than any GM vehicle I have ever owned.

 

I do know the mystique around Toyota reliability is just that-especially now.  Their quality gone down the longer they have been around.

 

The current global economy is an odd one.  I don’t particularly like the way things are going, so I vote accordingly.

Edited January 8, 2022 by 39BuickEight (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

8 hours ago, 1932 plymouth pb sedan said:

It is funny that you mention the intake manifold gasket problems, I worked for an independent repair shop in the 90s and we worked on everything, over the years I probably changed a hundred gasket sets on GM v6 and v8 engines. The gaskets were molded plastic with permatex type inserts around the coolant, intake and exhaust manifold ports, the GM original gaskets were notched in the plastic around the coolant ports to prematurely fail in a short period of time. 

 

A decision driven by the financial staff, think bean counters, not the engineering community.  When the bean counters come into the picture all bets are off on quality & durability.  To them, nothing personal, it is just the money for the cheapest part.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

31 minutes ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

A decision driven by the financial staff, think bean counters, not the engineering community.  When the bean counters come into the picture all bets are off on quality & durability.  To them, nothing personal, it is just the money for the cheapest part.

At the expense of lost customers and bad press. Not to mention exorbitant warranty claims.

 

In my tech school business courses nearly 50 years ago (yes, those were required for automotive and all trades courses), we were taught about something intangible called "goodwill". Apparently that concept is no longer emphasized in MBA programs, if it's taught at all. I also wonder about ethics courses.

[maok]

To those who will not buy any Japanese or German cars, or for that matter any foreign owned, does this apply to your other appliances? I'm guessing not.

 

IMO, its a dumb and out dated mentality. Imagine how crap US built cars would be if there was no foreign competition.

Edited January 9, 2022 by maok (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

Last new car was the 1986 Ford wood trimmed Station Wagon, good car, lots of fun family miles on it. If I win the Lottery tonight there isn't a new car that I would ever think of buying. 

 

Bob 

[Bleach]

55 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

Last new car was the 1986 Ford wood trimmed Station Wagon, good car, lots of fun family miles on it. If I win the Lottery tonight there isn't a new car that I would ever think of buying. 

 

Bob 

I wouldn't either. My last new car was an '06 Acura MDX. We still have it. It's been good to us.

[Skvitt]

I'm trying to stay with cars that I can work on and fix by myself. Currently 2008 Tundra and 2010 Volvo XC90.

[Frank DuVal]

12 hours ago, wws944 said:

Didn't help that, with the exception of Camaro and Corvette, GM basically doesn't sell passenger cars anymore.  Just SUVs and trucks.

And Ford just has Mustang as their single car in production. So GM is not alone in that thinking!

[Larry Schramm]

3 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

Last new car was the 1986 Ford wood trimmed Station Wagon, good car, lots of fun family miles on it. If I win the Lottery tonight there isn't a new car that I would ever think of buying. 

 

Bob 

 

I would buy a new 3/4 ton GMC Denali or a Chevrolet High Country... Diesel

[Larry Schramm]

4 hours ago, rocketraider said:

At the expense of lost customers and bad press. Not to mention exorbitant warranty claims.

 

In my tech school business courses nearly 50 years ago (yes, those were required for automotive and all trades courses), we were taught about something intangible called "goodwill". Apparently that concept is no longer emphasized in MBA programs, if it's taught at all. I also wonder about ethics courses.

 

I taught Marketing & Management at the local university for 15 years. I can tell you that Goodwill was part of my class.

[ericmac]

On 1/6/2022 at 8:07 PM, kingrudy said:

It usually takes only one car that will sour you from any brand. My purchase was a 1985 Chrysler Le Baron. After two years all four power windows failed. That was it for me, will never by a Chrysler again. I have purchased Chevy trucks ever since dumping the Chrysler in 1987. My current Silverado was purchased in 2009 and has never caused me a problem. 

I agree about the "one and sour" sentiment.  In my case it happened to be a Toyota Corolla SR5. My cousin bought one new and raved about the car. I liked the looks of them and bought one for myself.  At the time I was commuting 100 miles per day and the Toyota had the most uncomfortable seats I have ever experienced.  Inside of six months I traded the car off and have never once considered buying another Toyota.  I replaced it with a Ford Thunderbird Turbo Coupe with Recaro seats and have been a US car buyer ever since...with the exception of a couple Mazda Miatas...but that's a whole different ballgame. 

[bryankazmer]

On 1/8/2022 at 9:25 AM, 1932 plymouth pb sedan said:

It is funny that you mention the intake manifold gasket problems, I worked for an independent repair shop in the 90s and we worked on everything, over the years I probably changed a hundred gasket sets on GM v6 and v8 engines. The gaskets were molded plastic with permatex type inserts around the coolant, intake and exhaust manifold ports, the GM original gaskets were notched in the plastic around the coolant ports to prematurely fail in a short period of time. Was this done on purpose for the dealers to generate service $ ?, I'm sure many auto manufactures did and still build to fail intentionally. Eventually Felpro came out with a replacement gasket that was built without the "notches" and lasted forever.

I heard from a GM engineer that the design was changed pre-production without subsequent engineering check - in other words not following their own procedure

[wws944]

1 hour ago, bryankazmer said:

I heard from a GM engineer that the design was changed pre-production without subsequent engineering check - in other words not following their own procedure

 

It is understandable that sometimes "stuff" happens.  That is what warranties and part revisions are for.  But someone at GM should have noticed the massive number of service problems and acted far sooner than they did.  I'd imagine it took them somewhere around 15 model years, over a number of different engine lines, to resolve the issues at manufacture.

 

Then we could talk about "clear coat disease" in their paint jobs.

[Jim Skelly]

20 hours ago, maok said:

To those who will not buy any Japanese or German cars, or for that matter any foreign owned, does this apply to your other appliances? I'm guessing not.

 

IMO, its a dumb and out dated mentality. Imagine how crap US built cars would be if there was no foreign competition.

In the case of cars, trucks and SUVs, we can choose to buy vehicles assembled in the country where we live.  I have one of the last Zenith television sets made in the U.S. at a plant in St. Louis. in 1986.  There are no televisions made here anymore, and the same is true with a lot of other items (cameras, radios, most clothing).  I buy American when I have that option.  No disagreement that people buying foreign-made cars forced the U.S. auto manufacturers to start applying the Deming principles to manufacturing.  Corporate greed with unrealistic profit/margin goals caused most manufacturing to move to cheap-labor countries.  

[TerryB]

Rauland Zenith Corp.  My employer, RCA, and they were very competitive in the USA TV market.  I was in the CRT engineering group and it seemed we were always keeping a close eye on each other’s innovations. In December 2006 the CRT / display engineering group was ended in Lancaster PA.  Even I don’t own any RCA branded TVs.  One of my last assignments was transferring CRT build information to our factories in China. While there I noted Buicks were everywhere!

[8E45E]

19 minutes ago, Jim Skelly said:

I have one of the last Zenith television sets made in the U.S. at a plant in St. Louis. in 1986.  There are no televisions made here anymore, and the same is true with a lot of other items (cameras, radios, most clothing).

And then there is the 'co-branding', Japanese and Korean auto manufacturers by aligning themselves with good ol' USA companies, Harmon Kardon, Bose, etc., for audio equipment, and Honda using ShopVac®.   At the same time, Ford co-branded with Sony for their high-end audio in the F-150's.

 

Craig

[8E45E]

Just now, TerryB said:

Rauland Zenith Corp.  My employer, RCA, and they were very competitive in the USA TV market.  I was in the CRT engineering group and it seemed we were always keeping a close eye on each other’s innovations. In December 2006 the CRT / display engineering group was ended in Lancaster PA.  Even I don’t own any RCA branded TVs.  One of my last assignments was transferring CRT build information to our factories in China. While there I noted Buicks were everywhere!

Would you not have actually worked under Thomson SA from France after the RCA & GE home entertainment lines were sold to them by then?  

 

Craig

[TerryB]

12 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

Would you not have actually worked under Thomson SA from France after the RCA & GE home entertainment lines were sold to them by then?  

 

Craig

Yes, the RCA brand name was just that in 1989 and on.  Thomson SA actually spun off us to our own entity TCE Thomson Consumer Electronics.  The GE brand was part of the deal when GE briefly owned RCA in order to get NBC.  GE traded Thomson consumer electronics for their medical business. Thomson got the worse deal.  The TV set business was sold to TCL in China where TCL found out quickly they got a bum deal too.
 

Anyway it’s surprising to see someone who actually knew about Thomson and RCA.  Today the shreds of what was TCE now goes by Technicolor and is struggling to stay in business.  When I tell younger people I used to work for RCA they ask “what did they do?”.  And my memories of travel to Mexico, France and China along with various RCA factories in the USA and Midland Canada are fading away too.

 

Ok now back to cars….

[Bleach]

I have an Emerson 27" I bought new in 1988. It was made in USA. It still works but I can only watch it with one of those digital converter boxes. My wife wants me to get rid of it but I wont throw out a perfectly working item.

[Pfeil]

On 1/8/2022 at 6:20 PM, Skvitt said:

I'm trying to stay with cars that I can work on and fix by myself. Currently 2008 Tundra and 2010 Volvo XC90.

Might be a good idea to buy pre OBD2, that way the gov has a harder time with the new mileage tax as they need your BCM to interface with the transponder you have to buy.

[f.f.jones]

Most news and industry sources are saying Toyota was able to stock and manage their computer chip supply better than GM did. Toyota did not have the new car production problems that GM did, were able to supply their dealers with cars when GM couldn't, and had inventory for sale when GM didn't. 

There was a great demand for new cars and people purchased cars from sources that could supply them. 

The situation is purely economic...not political,

[TerryB]

11 hours ago, Pfeil said:

Might be a good idea to buy pre OBD2, that way the gov has a harder time with the new mileage tax as they need your BCM to interface with the transponder you have to buy.

Here in PA the annual state safety inspection includes auto mileage at time of inspection which is logged in the recorded data about the car.  When you renew your annual registration you also have to include the current mileage reading for the vehicle.  No transponders required.  The mileage tax on EVs is anticipated since they are not currently paying fuel taxes.   Our state is vastly underfunded to maintain its roads as the fees and taxes also pay the costs of maintaining the State Police force.  I would guess PA is not alone in already recording driving data.

[Pfeil]

7 hours ago, TerryB said:

Here in PA the annual state safety inspection includes auto mileage at time of inspection which is logged in the recorded data about the car.  When you renew your annual registration you also have to include the current mileage reading for the vehicle.  No transponders required.  The mileage tax on EVs is anticipated since they are not currently paying fuel taxes.   Our state is vastly underfunded to maintain its roads as the fees and taxes also pay the costs of maintaining the State Police force.  I would guess PA is not alone in already recording driving data.

This is for the FED. not the state gov.

[Pfeil]

17 hours ago, f.f.jones said:

Most news and industry sources are saying Toyota was able to stock and manage their computer chip supply better than GM did. Toyota did not have the new car production problems that GM did, were able to supply their dealers with cars when GM couldn't, and had inventory for sale when GM didn't. 

There was a great demand for new cars and people purchased cars from sources that could supply them. 

The situation is purely economic...not political,

Why is our local Toyota dealers lot empty and has been for several months?

Edited January 10, 2022 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[TerryB]

1 minute ago, Pfeil said:

This is for the FED. not the state gov.

Don’t you think they can exchange information?  Our state looks for and gets federal monies for road maintenance.  They are trying to replace a bridge in Harrisburg and don’t have the money to do it so a temporary toll has been discussed for users.  The “temporary” unfortunately might never go away.

[Pfeil]

1 minute ago, TerryB said:

Don’t you think they can exchange information?  Our state looks for and gets federal monies for road maintenance.  They are trying to replace a bridge in Harrisburg and don’t have the money to do it so a temporary toll has been discussed for users.  The “temporary” unfortunately might never go away.

No, they've ( Fed.) have already said they want this directly to them.

[hidden_hunter]

11 hours ago, TerryB said:

The mileage tax on EVs is anticipated since they are not currently paying fuel taxes.   Our state is vastly underfunded to maintain its roads as the fees and taxes also pay the costs of maintaining the State Police force.  I would guess PA is not alone in already recording driving data.

We already have an EV mileage tax, basically it’s on you to report it every so often. Sure you can lie and upload a fake picture of the odo but whenever a major event happens (like a sale) you’re just going to end up with a bill plus a fine 

[Frank DuVal]

20 hours ago, Pfeil said:

This is for the FED. not the state gov.

It's all on Carfax anyway! 😁

 

Oops, my transponder fell out of the OBDII port, darn long legs...😆

[Pfeil]

1 hour ago, Frank DuVal said:

It's all on Carfax anyway! 😁

 

Oops, my transponder fell out of the OBDII port, darn long legs...😆

Doesn't make a bit of difference to the Fed. So you will pay mileage tax to the Fed, and you will pay another mileage tax to the state.

[John348]

1 hour ago, Frank DuVal said:

It's all on Carfax anyway! 😁

 

Oops, my transponder fell out of the OBDII port, darn long legs...😆

Exactly Frank!, Who needs a transponder? There is always a way around a transponders States have been using plate/tag reader technology for tolls now for a few years in the Northeast, and now they are interlinking the states DMV's nd sending bills in the mail to the vehicle owner's. If they don't pay they are unable to renew their vehicles registration in that state where it is registered. I can see that technology being applied to road usage tax in the future.  Maybe it is long overdue and it is time to get rid of the "skim and dip" road tax lumped into fuel surcharges, that gas stations collect and sit on.

 

22 hours ago, TerryB said:

Don’t you think they can exchange information?  Our state looks for and gets federal monies for road maintenance.  They are trying to replace a bridge in Harrisburg and don’t have the money to do it so a temporary toll has been discussed for users.  The “temporary” unfortunately might never go away.

I-78 is the second (a close second at that) worst road I have ever been on. The sad part is that it seems like it has been under construction since the first time I was on it with my Father going to Hershey in 1972 or 3 through this past year, and it still sucks past the construction

[Frank DuVal]

8 hours ago, John348 said:

"skim and dip" road tax lumped into fuel surcharges, that gas stations collect and sit on.

The small gas station convenience stores around here don't sit on the tax, they just get a percentage of sales to keep. 20 years ago it was 3 cents a gallon they kept. Everything else goes to the fuel supplier. If they don't give the sales to the fuel supplier, they are cut off. The name brand stations fall into two camps, those that are company stores, and those that are owned by locals. I've been told the tax is collected (or billed) at the time the fuel truck is loaded. I could be very wrong on that, been a while since I talked to an Exxon guy whose child was in a club with my daughter, and we got to talking while standing around many times.😉

 

And here we have a Highway Use tax. Collected at time of registration or renewal based on "average driving miles" times difference of your vehicle than a 23.5 MPG vehicle. I do wish they would do it on real miles driven, as my wife does not drive anywhere near average miles driven anymore. And I split my time between cars. Lucky, I drive vehicles that don't even get 23.5 MPG per the EPA, so no tax...👍

Edited January 12, 2022 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[bryankazmer]

8 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

The small gas station convenience stores around here don't sit on the tax, they just get a percentage of sales to keep. 20 years ago it was 3 cents a gallon they kept. Everything else goes to the fuel supplier. If they don't give the sales to the fuel supplier, they are cut off. The name brand stations fall into two camps, those that are company stores, and those that are owned by locals. I've been told the tax is collected (or billed) at the time the fuel truck is loaded. I could be very wrong on that, been a while since I talked to an Exxon guy whose child was in a club with my daughter, and we got to talking while standing around many times.😉

 

And here we have a Highway Use tax. Collected at time of registration or renewal based on "average driving miles" times difference of your vehicle than a 23.5 MPG vehicle. I do wish they would do it on real miles driven, as my wife does not drive anywhere near average miles driven anymore. And I split my time between cars. Lucky, I drive vehicles that don't even get 23.5 MPG per the EPA, so no tax...👍

are you saying that one pays less tax for a vehicle that gets poorer mileage?

[John348]

2 hours ago, bryankazmer said:

are you saying that one pays less tax for a vehicle that gets poorer mileage?

No, It is lumped into the price per gallon of fuel, so the more fuel you consume the more tax you pay. So technically yes higher MPG vehicles do pay a lower tax per mile. My earlier point is that someone or corporation is sitting on that money collected before it is paid to the government, just like sales tax or employee income tax withholding. In the price of fuel we are talking A LOT OF MONEY 

Edited January 12, 2022 by John348 (see edit history)