Having your car judged

[a griffin]

I know not everyone is too concerned with what awards your car may or may not receive, so this may not be a post that everyone favors. If you have meticulously maintained/restored your car to the highest standards and have put your car onto the show field, let me know your thoughts and answer a few questions for me.

 

First off, have you had your car judged (AACA/CCCA or equivalent)? I'd like to hear from those that have gone through this experience. I've shown at some local shows that had judging (never an AACA event), sometimes I felt judges were on their game, while at other venues, it felt a little clique-ey to openly rigged for auction cars that were bought literally the day before. 

 

What are some ideas or changes you feel would benefit judging in the future of the cars, old and not so old, that are showing up on the show field?

 

This is not a post where I feel I was wronged, just having conversation. If it looks like the post is veering off of the intended purpose, we can close it and let it fade into memory.

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by a griffin (see edit history)

[Guest]

I have never had any of my cars judged professionally but I have a garage full of 1st place trophies from local type car shows whenever I've entered one. That being said, no one could be a more critical judge of my cars than me.

[TAKerry]

I have not had a car judged by AACA. I go to many shows not looking for trophies but for the fun of it. I usually leave early, so I have no idea if I have ever won! I too would like to see answers to the op, as I am restoring a car now that will be eligible for AACA judging. My thought is that there are standards of which are followed. I do have a copy of the judging standards I downloaded. I believe the AACA is much different than the local cruise where the buddy of a friend pics the winner because he likes Camaro's.

 

I have had motorcycles judged in the AMCA. Mostly positive experience, and I surmise its the same but different. They too are judged by standards for points, not pitting one car against the other. I had points taken off for having chrome fenders and chain guard on a bike, although it was indeed original this way. The expert in the field judge swore otherwise and deducted. I had period correct pictures and info that I could have submitted and had the points added but it wasnt worth my effort.

[JACK M]

Well, kinda by accident but the easiest car I ever built and gets that "Rat Rod" trophy every time.

I could care less about all this original talk, That kind of judging doesn't happen in my neck of the woods.

 

 

[a griffin]

8 minutes ago, JACK M said:

Well, kinda by accident but the easiest car I ever built and gets that "Rat Rod" trophy every time.

I could care less about all this original talk, That kind of judging doesn't happen in my neck of the woods.

 

 

Unlike some, I can appreciate the work to build this car, especially getting to play with a hemi in a car like this. I've had my hand in a few of these builds in the past. 

I'm looking towards the other end of the spectrum with my original post, though. The upper shows where the judging goes beyond the shock factor. 

[JACK M]

10 minutes ago, a griffin said:

Unlike some, I can appreciate the work to build this car, especially getting to play with a hemi in a car like this. I've had my hand in a few of these builds in the past. 

I'm looking towards the other end of the spectrum with my original post, though. The upper shows where the judging goes beyond the shock factor. 

 

Its not really a Rat Rod.

The suspension brakes  and such are all top notch.

It just looks like one and I don't really want to argue it.

I do like to talk to the guy that takes a look and says something like "It must handle well with the Corvette front suspension" Or "I like that it has up to date disc brakes all around" or "I like the way you did the steering".

Its my most fun car to drive.

 

I have a couple of original cars and try to enjoy the full spectrum.

 

[bryankazmer]

I can't speak to either the Pebble/St John's/Amelia level. 

I have on only a few occasions been a judge at a marque event.  Judging teams knew what they were looking at and for. I saw only an honest effort to do a good job and confer if there were doubts.  Authenticity trumped hand-rubbed lacquer on the air filter.

Then there is the local parking lot collection of late model used cars and rods.  There is no discernible standard other than it's shiny.

[95Cardinal]

1 hour ago, a griffin said:

I know not everyone is too concerned with what awards your car may or may not receive, so this may not be a post that everyone favors. If you have meticulously maintained/restored your car to the highest standards and have put your car onto the show field, let me know your thoughts and answer a few questions for me.

 

First off, have you had your car judged (AACA/CCCA or equivalent)? I'd like to hear from those that have gone through this experience. I've shown at some local shows that had judging, sometimes I felt judges were on their game, while at other venues, it felt a little clique-ey to openly rigged for auction cars that were bought literally the day before. 

 

What are some ideas or changes you feel would benefit judging in the future of the cars, old and not so old, that are showing up on the show field?

 

This is not a post where I feel I was wronged, just having conversation. If it looks like the post is veering off of the intended purpose, we can close it and let it fade into memory.

 

 

 

 

I have had a few cars judged over the years.

Most recently, my experience has been with a couple of high-profile Concours events as well as AACA and Buick Club of America events.

 

I felt that the judging teams were well informed and respectful. The judges were knowledgeable and in both cases, picked up on a couple of imperfections that many observers at typical, local events would never notice. I am my own biggest critic, I know of a few minor imperfections that were not detected.

 

I have experienced the "buddy system" of judging at local events; it can be frustrating if you let it get to you. Generally, my cars are "drivers", so I never expect to bring home any awards.

 

Our local POCI chapter hosts an annual show. To eliminate any of the buddy/favoritism issues, we use a participant judging model and club members are not allowed to vote.

That becomes a popularity contest and less spectacular cars can get overlooked.

Edited February 22, 2021 by 95Cardinal
spelling (see edit history)

[Paul Dobbin]

I too have a big shelf full of First to Third place trophies from nearly 50 years of car shows

where judges pick the cars they like in many classes.  I keep the fancy and unusual trophies

and try to gift the others to new participants.   Something it really pleases them.

AACA, EFV8CA, and other national shows I'm usually in the non-judged section.   I have

been judged in DPC (Driver Participation Class) at a AACA National Show, just to get the

grill medallion.  I've also been rejected in HPOF (Historic Preservation of Original Features)

with a couple cars for silly reasons like radial tires, window stickers and "Lack of P".   Which is their choice.  All my cars have been drivers and are stock, but I enjoy them and if I drive one in Yellowstone Park or a famous race track, I'll buy a Yellowstone or race track decal

just like I would have done if I drove the car there when it was new.   That does not make it

a customized car or hot rod to me.  I realized it didn't leave the factory or the dealers lot

with any personal decorations, therefore I avoid judging and enjoy my old cars as usable

antiques for my own pleasure.   See my tag line.

[dalef62]

As far as local car shows and cruises I have always said that judging is a popularity contest, whoever is the most popular, either car or person wise, that's who wins.  I go to many local car shows and cruises and could care less if I win or lose.

I have had the pleasure of having a few of my vehicles judged at AACA events.  Most were several years ago with well known makes that were not really in showroom new condition and the judges knew what they were looking at and I feel they were judged quite fairly.  If you have an obscure make or model the judges sometimes judge the vehicle without asking if something is incorrect and just take points off. 

At a recent AACA show I had a obscure vehicle judged and the team captain seemed very stand-offish when I approached him about an item on my vehicle that I wanted to bring to the attention of the judging team.  And after they judged my vehicle, they went to the next vehicle in my class that had the same items as mine they wanted to take points off for them.  If it wasn't for me having a shop manual for those items and he was able to show the team captain, he would have lost points for it.  I still don't know if I lost any points for those items on my vehicle.  All worked out as I got the award I was going for but some judges don't seem to care or think they know everything.  No judging system is perfect but the AACA has a great program, I was a judge for many years. 

It is a wonderful experience if that is something you want to do.      

Edited February 22, 2021 by dalef62 (see edit history)

[TTR]

I have been involved with all sides (entrant/presenter/judge/etc) of this and have experienced or seen all good and bad of it, but wish to clarify that there are huge differences between judging and judging.

 

One can be very objective (with clear guidelines for authenticity/originality), while other can be highly subjective (think "modified" as in customs/hot rods/non-stock/race cars/etc) and to make things worse, sometimes both seem to get intermixed, whether intentionally or not.

I’ve even had an entrant withdrew his car from judging (based on guidelines similar to Pebble Beach, i.e. authenticity/originality) when I was approaching him/his car with my two fellow class judges on the field, presumably out fear or frustration that he may not go home as a “high(est) score winner” he had become accustomed to believe him and his car were.

Apparently I had judged his car a year or two earlier, found several things incorrect and now (allegedly) he had been promised (by someone) his car will never be subjected to such ridicule, especially by me ?!?

Afterwards, during judges lunch break, I suggested the event and its organizers would probably be better off if they just promptly send this individual his 100 point score card and the trophy after he registers or signs up to show it in the future.

Edited February 22, 2021 by TTR (see edit history)

[46 woodie]

I have often wondered what the judging criteria was for judging at events such as Pebble Beach and other concours. From what I have seen, I don't think the judging is as thorough as I have seen at many events. I have had my car judged in M.A.R.C/ M.A.F.C.A events and judging a Model A is a very thorough affair. The judging standards for a Model A covers every aspect of the car and is judged by teams that cover the car from bumper to bumper.

[Flivverking]

My no.2 show vehicle without even trying.

For few years even this bomb would pull a trophy at local shows. Truth be told, either a left over trophy ( sometimes with a fake catagory) or a hard luck trophy not needed.

 

Being a ubiquitous volunteer and local judge ,and a good sport once in a while ,often I let friends drive this to shows for a hoot an got as many appauses and gawks as the 100 (99.5)point entries.LOL

 

 

 

 

[Flivverking]

[Flivverking]

[TAKerry]

I reiterate, at one time I was very involved with antique motorcycles.  I attended a couple of concours events even winning best in show, along with invites to others. The judging I experienced there was much different than at AMCA event. I felt the concours judging was somewhat political, more so than a standard of judging. I may be wrong. At the time, and it may be different now, the AMCA seemed like the Antique Harley/Indian club of America. All of my bikes were European, mostly British and there was not a large showing of such. In fact when we showed our Rudge, my brother had to provide the judges with all of the information. This was the first of its kind any of them had ever judged. 

[playswithbrass]

I can remember being bemused at a specific car placing first in a class and watching the speedometer swivel fall off as it was fired up to collect the trophy. It was owned by a major sponsor of the show. I think some shows are judged by people who painstakingly try to be fair, and others by people who are influenced by other considerations. It’s best to not get too emotionally involved. 

[padgett]

I created a "Platinum" class on request by a national (10,000 members) club. The upshot was I quit judging because no-one really wanted a car judged to that level, typically took at least four hours and to the level of embossed vs silkscreened spark plug wires and the month that slipstreamed changes were made. Hardest part was differences between assembly plants e.g when in the '64 model run did Southgate run out of tilt wheel assemblies.

 

 

 

[32tatra]

On one of the many tv shows where they went to a concurs show.  They said the judges can add points, if they like the story about the history of the car.  So a car that is fully restored and done correctly can lose to a car not done correctly, but owned by a well known person and found in a barn, many years later!

[padgett]

Sounds like the Concours  d'LeMons,, Judges also take bribes.

[TTR]

2 hours ago, 46 woodie said:

I have often wondered what the judging criteria was for judging at events such as Pebble Beach and other concours. From what I have seen, I don't think the judging is as thorough as I have seen at many events. I have had my car judged in M.A.R.C/ M.A.F.C.A events and judging a Model A is a very thorough affair. The judging standards for a Model A covers every aspect of the car and is judged by teams that cover the car from bumper to bumper.

I've never judged or presented at P.B., but I've been involved with various other concours shows both as an entrant/presenter and/or invited judge.

Most have had 3 judge teams* for each class, which on average have included 5-8 entries per class and given that the judging is expected to be done within 2 or so hour window, usually between 9-11** am or so, the time allocated per each is limited to about 15-20 minutes, which will fly by in a blink of an eye if the team members are not paying attention, often leading to reduced time allocation(s) available for the last car(s) and can make those entrants/presenters resentful because their cars didn't seem to receive same attention as some of the earlier ones***. 

 

OTOH, I have judged on occasions involving 12-13 cars, in two different classes, forcing/pushing the timeline beyond 4 hours and can tell you it can be quite exhausting, both mentally and physically, especially if on a hot & sunny summer day, wearing a sport coat and slacks and trying to stay focused and provide an equal/fair assessment for each entry, while at times wondering "why the f**k did I volunteered for this s**t again ?".

 

* Usually 1 judge focusing on exterior, 1 on interior & 1 on chassis/undercarriage and decided/agreed upon between team members before starting proceedings).

 

** Usually can't start until all cars/entries are on the field (by 9 or so) and score sheets must be finalized/submitted for tabulation before lunch and in preparations for award ceremonies which usually start right after lunch break around 1 or 2 pm.

 

*** I once presented a clients car at a fairly prestigious event. Class included 9 entries, our's being the last one, for a team of 2 judges, both whom were completely exhausted and running way behind the expected schedule by the time they got to us. One of them clearly had no interest in his (volunteer) duties (he just stood in the shadow of a nearby tree and having some irrelevant conversation with somebody), while the other tried his best not to collapse/faint from clear exhaustion.

[Bryan G]

Every summer at the biggest street fair in the county I would volunteer at a booth; another member of our group was the mayor of that small town. There was a moment of dread for him because he had to pick the recipient of the Mayor's Award at the little car show. Every year he'd grab me and say, "Bryan, walk down the street with me and tell me which car to pick!" I'd find the one that had the truly best body/paintwork and they'd get the trophy.

[junkyardjeff]

I do not have any that are nice enough to be judged and they have parts from many different years on them so no sense on even trying.

[TTR]

4 hours ago, 32tatra said:

On one of the many tv shows where they went to a concurs show.  They said the judges can add points, if they like the story about the history of the car.  So a car that is fully restored and done correctly can lose to a car not done correctly, but owned by a well known person and found in a barn, many years later!

In most of the “seriously”(?) judged concours events, every car (submitted for judging) has 100 point score at the beginning and any/every (non-authentic/-original) infraction earns a deduction from it.
Deductions usually vary by extent or severity of each infraction and can be metered in full, multiple or fractions of points, depending on guidelines.

 

At these types of (“seriously judged”!?!) events, no points are awarded or gained for any reason and things like ownership history, whether current or past, etc shouldn’t have any influence on judging.
Every car is expected and should be judged (fairly/impartially) on its own merits only, against given guidelines for the make/model. Impartial judge shouldn’t even compare it against identical make/model that might standing right next to it.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by TTR (see edit history)

[Buffalowed Bill]

When I finish this I'll probably wonder why I got involved. 

 

Judging is a big part of the hobby, it is just something that we do. It's importance is not related to our own particular feeling about the process, or whether we ever want to be a part of the process ourselves. It's more a case of the existence of judging being necessary for the survival of the hobby. Why people choose to have a car judged is not as important as the fact that so many in the hobby demand it. 

 

Over the years I have judged and had some of my cars judged numerous times. One of my cars was judged on, arguably, the biggest stage in the world. It was a great experience, but extremely tiring. The time and labor that goes into having a car judged makes the process a young man's game. It may not be the owner who is young, but most often younger people have to be involved. Today I much prefer displaying my cars, sans the judging part of the event.

 

Each judging even has it's own particular audience and standards for judging. It is up to the car owner to know the stage on which he wants to display, and to do his homework regarding the venues standards. The one thing consistent in the judging process is that there is no consistency in the standardards. IMHO standards have been watered down in many judged events. Just because someone has a mantle full of people's choice trophies, he should not think that he can necessarily walk home with a first place trophy from an AACA or CCCA judged event.

 

At these events, and to a lesser extent, at vetted, concourse, events the judging is through and exacting. Chances of a judge going rogue is virtually non existent. There is simply too much oversight, and too much is expected of each judge. These events are where the dirty work of judging takes place. If a car can't pass muster at this type of event, the owner just has to understand that the car is just not good enough. Rather then criticize the judging, it behoves the owner to understand what was wrong with the car, and act accordingly.

 

Pebble Beach is a different world. All the cars on the field are invited. Vetting is not enough, for a car to be invited it has to fit into the display for that day's event. It is referred to as "French Judginging." The judges know these cars inside and out long before the event. There is no sounding of horns, no starting of engines, simply non of the things that  many would consider a points judging. It doesn't mean that the cars are not good, on the contrary, they are all good. Out of a thousand or more entries, only two hundred are invited. It's all about the spectacle, and what a spectacle it is! 

 

We all owe a vote of thanks to everyone involved in putting on an event. Unless you have been involved you will never know what goes into the making of an event. Planning goes on for months or even years. Proceeds go to charity, so just give the folks putting the event on, and the ones doing the judging a break. Without their work there would not be a hobby as we know it.

 

Bill

[cxgvd]

I've been a judge and had cars judged a few times and appreciate the efforts of everyone.  Sometimes I am surprised my cars scored so well and when it didn't I knew why and understood.

 

Funny story, we were on weekend driving tour which took us to a small town's parade.  A fellow on the tour drove a beautiful 1932 Auburn and he lost to a scruffy Model A and he was angry.  A friend reminded him the winner lived in the town and the trophy had nothing to do with the cars.

 

When Covid-19 conditions allow I plan to show a car I restored from an older restoration.  I hope to receive my First Junior, the car will never look as well again, and then it will resort to a touring machine.  Cars should be shown for awards, it is an important function of collecting.

 

Stay well, Gary

 

 

[West Peterson]

I believe if you're only showing a car to receive a trophy, perhaps you should find a different hobby. The car is the trophy, in my humble opinion, and that shouldn't be forgotten. On occasion, I bring my car to a local car show event. The very LAST thing I want from showing it there is a trophy. I'm there to share my car, and to see other people's cars on a local level.

 

I DO show my cars in National events for judging, and in those events, the goal is not so much to garner a trophy (as I mentioned above, the CAR is the trophy), but to attain as high a score as possible from knowledgeable judges.

 

All concours events are judged quite differently from each other. However, most of them go by "French rules", whereas presentation and taste count as much or more as condition or quality of restoration.

In other words, if you paint your 1930s Classic bright red, or with high contrast multi-colors following every body line and contour, add on driving lights, spot lights, chrome wheels with white sidewall tires, a trunk on the luggage rack, etc., you will probably not impress the judges. While many of the accessory items are neat novelty items, and interesting by themselves, they really add NOTHING to the aesthetics of the clean lines the designer had in mind. Even if that car is completely authentic in its features, and has a perfect restoration, it more than likely will not win its class, and possibly will not even get an award at all. Speaking from the point of view of a concours judge who has judged for 35 years at high-level events, in concours judging, LESS is much, much more.

[TAKerry]

My reason for showing in AACA is to try and achieve a level of 'as delivered new' for my personal satisfaction, kind of a pat on the back for my time and  hard work that went into it. I think the reason for showing at a local cruise night is for the 'everyone look at my car, it is better than all of the others here'. Not that everyone that goes to those kind of events has that mind set, heck I try to get to all that I can. BUT, I do run into some  people at those  events, If they dont win, the go away with a bad attitude. I know some that choose their car show schedule depending on their win ratio. At the risk of sounding arrogant, there was a particular m/c show that we would go to every year. We consistently won all of our classes for several years in a row. It got to the point that we enjoyed the show so much but stopped registering our bikes (we still paid, just never filled out the forms).  We werent there for trophies, just enjoyment. We were asked non stop why they werent listed. 

[West Peterson]

26 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

 It got to the point that we enjoyed the show so much but stopped registering our bikes (we still paid, just never filled out the forms).  We werent there for trophies, just enjoyment. We were asked non stop why they werent listed. 

 

I did that once... and told the show organizer that I didn't want a trophy. I wasn't trying to be arrogant, but I guess it came across that way. I'll try your way next time, and just not fill out the form.

[Bhigdog]

Since I do my restorations with my hands rather than my check book I consider the judging a validation of those efforts. I pretty much know what is correct both mechanically and cosmetic. Usually if I deserved an award I got one. If not I didn't. No hard feelings one way or another. As for the hardware (trophies) I either decline them or use them for target practice.

As Mr. Peterson said. the car is the trophy...........Bob

[TAKerry]

West, The last time we attended this particular event we just bought a double vendor space. We literally had 2 truck loads of bikes and had quite a display. To satisfy the requirements we brought a case of oil. We put a sign $1 per quart. One guy bought the whole case, and we were left empty handed for the rest of the day, LOL. Most people thought we were a shop selling bikes, and we had several offers, none worth considering though. Again, we just enjoyed being there and letting people look at some old iron.

[bryankazmer]

West has described the difference well.  Remember "French Judging" is for Concours - short for Concours d'Elegance, not Concours de Restauration.  The car's designer is being judges as much as the restoration.

[John348]

22 hours ago, a griffin said:

First off, have you had your car judged (AACA/CCCA or equivalent)? I'd like to hear from those that have gone through this experience. I've shown at some local shows that had judging, sometimes I felt judges were on their game, while at other venues, it felt a little clique-ey to openly rigged for auction cars that were bought literally the day before. 

 

To answer your question, yes I have had a few of my cars judged at AACA events, at all levels, Grand National's, Driver Participation, and HPOF (Unrestored), as well as the VCCA. I even attended a two Concour's events. I enjoy the judging aspect of the hobby and shows that the main focus is restoration and preservation to the point of "as delivered when new to the public" I have judged many times and I don't find it as rewarding as I did 30 years ago, but I said the same thing about work before I retired.

Nationally Judged Events held by a club and a Concour's  events are two very different types of events. The Concour's events that I attended, the cars were invited to submit to submit a series of photos and a form for review prior to being selected.  There was no registration fee and we were given breakfast and lunch and a great swag bag. The Concour's events are basically beauty pageant, of beautiful cars. I was very honored to have been invited to the two I attended, the judging was more subjective from a participants view. I don't mean that in a bad way I left both a very happy man 

 

18 hours ago, 32tatra said:

On one of the many tv shows where they went to a concurs show.  They said the judges can add points, if they like the story about the history of the car.  So a car that is fully restored and done correctly can lose to a car not done correctly, but owned by a well known person and found in a barn, many years later!

 

Remember that it is TV, and produced for viewer enjoyment (and advertising revenue) I had found that the reason that they ask about the history of the car because if the car drives up to the podium the M/C will tell the audience a little history about the vehicle as it drives up. 

 

22 hours ago, a griffin said:

 I've shown at some local shows that had judging, sometimes I felt judges were on their game, while at other venues, it felt a little clique-ey to openly rigged for auction cars that were bought literally the day before. 

 

I very seldom attend local events on Long Island anymore. I personally don't like being parked in a field of modified cars that is not an aspect of the hobby I personally enjoy. A majority of the shows on Long Island have just become money grabs, and the few that are run by local clubs have compromised themselves for the sake of money. The only local show I do love to attend when I am down in Florida, is the Marion Tax Collectors Show in Ocala. Held by George Albright who frequents this site from time to time. The proceeds go to charity, and I feel that is the way it should be. Concour's events I attended were the same way, everything was for charity   I don't like being charged to enter my car when spectators are being charged to view the cars, I just find it insulting. Local events are clique-ey, and always have been, and there are no guidelines. The best example of a clique are the "peoples choice" shows, that just means the person with most friends there will win, sort sad form of self accomplishment. If I do attend it is because some of my friends are going, and I just like getting out for the day. I usually just say that I have to leave early and please don't judge my car 

 

22 hours ago, a griffin said:

 I felt judges were on their game, while at other venues, it felt a little clique-ey to openly rigged for auction cars that were bought literally the day before. 

 

 

I am not really sure if I understand your comment about cars being bought the day before, were those cars of lesser quality? If the cars were the better cars it really should not matter where or how they got there, should it?    

 

22 hours ago, a griffin said:

What are some ideas or changes you feel would benefit judging in the future of the cars, old and not so old, that are showing up on the show field?

How old is "not so old"? 

Edited February 23, 2021 by John348 (see edit history)

[padgett]

Personally I usually bring cars to a show with a "For Display Only - Do Not Judge" sign. I know what is incorrect, usually done to accommodate my tastes, sometimes will list changes particularly if invisible (my CTS has a Navtool. Not stock but I wanted more than just a hands-free. Also has a HUD but in the corner of the windscreen and not the center where Caddy put it). Also most of my cars have different headlamp bulbs (I like SilverStar Ultras) and air horns. Consider those safety items. All also have the best rain tires I can find (55"/year mostly in three months) that fit properly.

 

Now I can understand those who want "trailer queens" for judged shows. Try to help those who want to know what was "stock" but also what "stock" really means (tires for a 1963 Grand Prix did not come with FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) 109 markings...) but learned my lesson and no longer judge.

 

My preference is for cars I can drive when desired (LaLa land is just out the turnpike, right at Wildwood, left at Lake City and straight for a few days). All cars here I remember when new but even back in the day would order a car (few dealers stocked 4-speed and AC) and usually have wheels, tires, and radio at home before it would arrive.

 

Want to be fanatical ? Will be glad to help or at least point in the right direction, just not my cuppa. I do learn a lot here.

[TAKerry]

Car show judging on ANY level far exceeds that of a dog show!

[Buffalowed Bill]

 

I believe if you're only showing a car to receive a trophy, perhaps you should find a different hobby. The car is the trophy, in my humble opinion, and that shouldn't be forgotten. On occasion, I bring my car to a local car show event. The very LAST thing I want from showing it there is a trophy. I'm there to share my car, and to see other people's cars on a local level.

 

West's comments are spot on, but we know that there are people in the hobby for whom the trophy is the prize. I think that it's important to realize their participation may be dependent on winning the competition. I'm more then willing to share the limelight, if in doing so, it might insure another owner's continued participation. 

 

I have been blessed that winning came to my car early on. I prize the fact that there are many people know my car, that haven't a clue as to who I am. It allowed me the luxury not feeling like I have to compete every time out. Winning is good, but sharing can be good too. IMHO if you have never experienced both you should give each a chance. As an old friend likes to say "it's better then a shrink."

[a griffin]

4 hours ago, John348 said:

 

To answer your question, yes I have had a few of my cars judged at AACA events, at all levels, Grand National's, Driver Participation, and HPOF (Unrestored), as well as the VCCA. I even attended a two Concour's events. I enjoy the judging aspect of the hobby and shows that the main focus is restoration and preservation to the point of "as delivered when new to the public" I have judged many times and I don't find it as rewarding as I did 30 years ago, but I said the same thing about work before I retired.

Nationally Judged Events held by a club and a Concour's  events are two very different types of events. The Concour's events that I attended, the cars were invited to submit to submit a series of photos and a form for review prior to being selected.  There was no registration fee and we were given breakfast and lunch and a great swag bag. The Concour's events are basically beauty pageant, of beautiful cars. I was very honored to have been invited to the two I attended, the judging was more subjective from a participants view. I don't mean that in a bad way I left both a very happy man 

 

 

 

 

I am not really sure if I understand your comment about cars being bought the day before, were those cars of lesser quality? If the cars were the better cars it really should not matter where or how they got there, should it?    I was at a Concours show where, the day before, there was an auction. What I saw specifically was a car that was purchased over the internet, entered into the show on behalf of the owner, that won class award. The car was judged solely on exterior appearance, engine area, trunk area nor interior was made available for inspection.

 

How old is "not so old"? That's objective isn't it? 

 

[John348]

1 minute ago, a griffin said:

How old is "not so old"? That's objective isn't it?

 

Yes it certainty is, but considering you made the statement, I was curious what you consider "not so old"? There are some who feel "not so old cars" are anything after WWII, 

[Steve Moskowitz]

I'm not sure we have answered the original poster's question on how to make the system better but he opened up not just a can of worms but a whole truckload of them in this conversation.  I can tell you that AACA has a 20 plus member committee that oversees its judging program and it is constantly being looked at and revised to do the right thing for the majority of our membership.  Not an easy task when 3 to 4,000 cars are shown a year.  However, over the years with the institution of HPOF (original), DPC (drivers), certified race vehicles and the competition judging classes (over 100) I think we do a pretty good job of trying to satisfy our members.  Always room for improvement though and suggestions should be sent to our VP of Judging, Chuck Crane.

 

I have been at this game a long time and have shown several cars in AACA prior to getting this job.  I have been fortunate to have won several national awards with AACA and awards at major concours.  I now judge at a couple of concours and know enough to be very dangerous.  Our editor, West Peterson, has a long history along with his family in the hobby and he has his views on certain aspects. He may be right but I always do not see it his way nor he my way.  That being said, we both need to make it clear that we do not speak for the club when we offer opinions.  Whitewalls, lights, mirrors, etc. are not universally despised by all judges, not, as far as I have seen and not automatic disqualification from awards. Simply the taste of the particular judging teams comes into play.  In the end, as everyone have said, it is your car that is your true trophy along with the friendships you make along the way.  They are priceless and hopefully do not tarnish!

 

Those of us long in the tooth have seen almost every form of judging there is.  Certainly the biased judging, car owner judging, club judging, concours judging which all at times can lead to results you may not be happy with!  I recall my first full restoration was at a local show, I was in a class with some older cars and mine was fresh out of the shop.  One of the cars was rough, very rough.  He won first place in the class and being my first car I was a little steamed as i did not understand how that could happen.  What happened next was even more unfathomable, I was second or third in my class but won best of show!  I was not even up at the judging stand at the time and they had to call me up!  I also went to a certain car club and was treated wonderfully, a judge came up later and told me I had tied for best of Show but they could not give me the top award as i was not a part of their club.  I admired his honesty.  At a major concours, I was showing a car for GM that my best friend restored and I supervised.  I was told that day they could not give the car an award because of who owned it.  I did not know that judging owners was a criteria!  I bring these up as many of you have stories as well.  

 

Me, I appreciated the chance to have my cars evaluated.  It validated the research and the effort to make the car as best as it can be.  I still immensely admire the craftmanship, work and willingness to bring history alive by car enthusiasts.  I personally have no desire for any trophies at this stage in my life except on the race track where I will most likely never, ever will win anything!

[a griffin]

1 hour ago, John348 said:

 

Yes it certainty is, but considering you made the statement, I was curious what you consider "not so old"? There are some who feel "not so old cars" are anything after WWII, 

My thought on "not so old" would be anything 80s and newer