Having your car judged

[a griffin]

25 minutes ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

I'm not sure we have answered the original poster's question on how to make the system better but he opened up not just a can of worms but a whole truckload of them in this conversation.  I can tell you that AACA has a 20 plus member committee that oversees its judging program and it is constantly being looked at and revised to do the right thing for the majority of our membership.  Not an easy task when 3 to 4,000 cars are shown a year.  However, over the years with the institution of HPOF (original), DPC (drivers), certified race vehicles and the competition judging classes (over 100) I think we do a pretty good job of trying to satisfy our members.  Always room for improvement though and suggestions should be sent to our VP of Judging, Chuck Crane.

 

I have been at this game a long time and have shown several cars in AACA prior to getting this job.  I have been fortunate to have won several national awards with AACA and awards at major concours.  I now judge at a couple of concours and know enough to be very dangerous.  Our editor, West Peterson, has a long history along with his family in the hobby and he has strong views on certain aspects. He may be right but I always do not see it his way nor he my way.  That being said, we both need to make it clear that we do not speak for the club when we offer opinions.  Whitewalls, lights, mirrors, etc. are not universally despised by all judges, not, as far as I have seen and not automatic disqualification from awards. Simply the taste of the particular judging teams comes into play.  In the end, as everyone have said, it is your car that is your true trophy along with the friendships you make along the way.  They are priceless and hopefully do not tarnish!

 

Those of us long in the tooth have seen almost every form of judging there is.  Certainly the biased judging, car owner judging, club judging, concours judging which all at times can lead to results you may not be happy with!  I recall my first full restoration was at a local show, I was in a class with some older cars and mine was fresh out of the shop.  One of the cars was rough, very rough.  He won first place in the class and being my first car I was a little steamed as i did not understand how that could happen.  What happened next was even more unfathomable, I was second or third in my class but won best of show!  I was not even up at the judging stand at the time and they had to call me up!  I also went to a certain car club and was treated wonderfully, a judge came up later and told me I had tied for best of Show but they could not give me the top award as i was not a part of their club.  I admired his honesty.  At a major concours, I was showing a car for GM that my best friend restored and I supervised.  I was told that day they could not give the car an award because of who owned it.  I did to not know that judging owners was a criteria!  I bring these up as many of you have stories as well.  

 

Me, I appreciated the chance to have my cars evaluated.  It validated the research and the effort to make the car as best as it can be.  I still immensely admire the craftmanship, work and willingness to bring history alive by car enthusiasts.  I personally have no desire for any trophies at this stage in my life except on the race track where I will most likely never, ever will win anything!

Thanks for chiming in. My intention isn't to kick a hornet's nest,  but just gather information. While I'm rather new to AACA, about 5 years or so, I've built a fair share of cars that have been shown and judged, I've been a judge a time or two. I do what I can to promote the hobby. Heck, I'm an officer of the local chapter.

 

I'm truthfully past the part of my life where I felt a trophy was the only way to prove a car was built to someones liking. Cars are a reflection of the person and shouldn't be built for acceptance. If we think about it, some people invest tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars into a cars to win a 7 dollar trophy. 

 

I am interested in others thoughts and have enjoyed the information gathered here so far.

[Dave39MD]

An experienced gentlemen that was helping me get ready for my first judged show considered judging as a way to improve his cars and I have adopted that way to look at it.

 

He also believed strongly I should be a part of the judging process and would learn from participating. He was right, judging was a great way to help with the  show and they got someone to do the chassis.

 

Dave

[Guest]

I have a humorous anecdote regarding  some (certainly not all) of the "experts" who own and those who judge.

About fifteen years ago there was a a Corvette judging show at one of the top flight venues.  A  particularly nice, rotisserie restored, down to the last detail, early Sting Ray was being judged and the car was virtually flawless.  There was some question about the placement of a factory-chalked check mark on the left front frame rail which turned into a bit of a heated debate.   The dispute between participant and judge was whether the random check mark (which only appeared on some, not all Sting Rays) should have been exactly where it was or approximately 4 inches further back.  This ridiculous argument had actually drawn a bit of a crowd when an elderly gentleman stepped out from the watchers and identified himself as having worked at the St. Louis Corvette plant during the time when this car was built.  When he said he could easily clear this up, he had everyone's attention.  He stated simply that the it was not a "check mark" at all.  It was an "L" ........for "Leaker".  It seems they were having an issue for a short period with the Saginaw steering boxes, some leaked and they would find this on the assembly line.  It meant the car had to be pulled and sent back for a good, or non-leaking steering box.  Nobody ever thought to go back and remove the chalked "L's" after the correction was made.

After the ensuing guffaws, backslapping and a few red faces, all was back to normal.

[Restorer32]

I watched a Duesenberg owner very nearly come to blows with a judge over whether or not his headlights could be dimmed. The owner maintained that his car was never equipped with any method to dim the headlights.

[Rooney3100]

I hope my opinion will help you answer your original post A Griffin...

 

I started attending my first AACA show in 2016 with my 56 Chevy truck not knowing other than what the judging manual says about what I can expect the judges to look for, I thought I covered most of my restoration to as how the truck came from the factory, I went in with the hope of my truck being restored by me being able to what I call ( The AACA POINTS Ladder) to climb, the first step I was able to step on the (1st Junior), I had some issues to change but if I wanted to climb the next step to the (SENIOR AWARD), I had to change some issues that the judges found to be incorrect, so I changed them and got to the next step (Senior award), there was even a few more issues judges found I had to correct so I could get to the next step the (Grand National Award), there was no more changes that AACA Judging found but I still changed a few  NOS items that made myself happier, the next step was the ( Senior Grand National) I made that step :), my next step this year is to get a ( Repeat Senior Grand National) Hopefully the Virus won't get in the way....I'm very grateful that our truck has climbed the AACA ladder so far, as West quoted ( The Vehicle is the trophy) I believe in that 100% 

 

The Awards that are given by AACA are there way I believe to show and document thru Judging to get you closer to that ORIGINAL FROM THE FACTORY RESTORATION, I didn't expect ANYTHING going into my first show with AACA but POINTS & AWARDS that I have been given by AACA & VCCA are proudly displayed in my ( Garage Museum) that shows the respect of the Judges for all my effort into our restoration....

 

To add to that RESPECT our 56 chevy truck was displayed in each clubs Magazine the past few years, another step on the Ladder....

 

From what I've seen at  local shows,  it wouldn't even come close to the caliber at an AACA or VCCA show event....plus I'm still trying to climb the AACA, VCCA clubs ladder that helps us PRESERVE our restoration for others to see at there future events, ( In my lifetime I will not do another restoration), It is a Great feeling when other members that are showing there Beautiful vehicles at the AACA or VCCA comment on our 56 Chevy truck, because they understand what it takes to do a restoration on there own, (I do the same same with other members vehicles),  plus we have met some very Nice people in the years we've shown with AACA & VCCA,

 

Some day down the road I will drive our truck,  I will take my truck to our local event just to show (NO TROHPY)

 

No Regrets at ALL with AACA & VCCA even if we wouldn't of made it up the Points ladder.....Hope this help answer your question A Griffin

 

STEVE MAVEAL

[padgett]

Bet some will argue that if there is a "L" on the firewall then the steering gearbox should leak but then have never seen a 63 Corvette FI with the original (defective) FI fuel pump.

[keiser31]

I only have my cars judged by myself and I am my worst critic.

[JACK M]

19 hours ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

they could not give me the top award as i was not a part of their club.

 

If its a closed show that should be made clear before the entry fee.

I once asked why my boat was always over looked and was told that the members didn't like the awards going out of the club. Snooty bunch that was.

I told the guy that his club should build better boats and never came back.

[John348]

3 minutes ago, padgett said:

Bet some will argue that if there is a "L" on the firewall then the steering gearbox should leak but then have never seen a 63 Corvette FI with the original (defective) FI fuel pump.

 

Why on earth would anyone see a factory defective part or any defective part (other then a cosmetic defect) on any car? 

IF IT IS DEFECTIVE IT MEANS IT DOES NOT WORK!!!!

 

Mr P does open the door to another side of judging. Some vehicles are text book vehicles to restore, Corvettes come to mind, as well as Model A's, Camaros, Mustangs, Small T-Birds, and 5-7 Chevy's are just a few I can think of, where the restorer has all of the of the documented information they need to restore the car properly to be correct. Those classes are very competitive, and almost every car is done extremely well, and every year there is few "fresh out of the box" restorations done to the same caliber.  From my observations some of the not so old cars from the 80's don't appear to be held to the same criteria. 

 

 

50 minutes ago, Rooney3100 said:

I hope my opinion will help you answer your original post A Griffin...

 

I started attending my first AACA show in 2016 with my 56 Chevy truck not knowing other than what the judging manual says about what I can expect the judges to look for, I thought I covered most of my restoration to as how the truck came from the factory, I went in with the hope of my truck being restored by me being able to what I call ( The AACA POINTS Ladder) to climb, the first step I was able to step on the (1st Junior), I had some issues to change but if I wanted to climb the next step to the (SENIOR AWARD), I had to change some issues that the judges found to be incorrect, so I changed them and got to the next step (Senior award), there was even a few more issues judges found I had to correct so I could get to the next step the (Grand National Award), there was no more changes that AACA Judging found but I still changed a few  NOS items that made myself happier, the next step was the ( Senior Grand National) I made that step , my next step this year is to get a ( Repeat Senior Grand National) Hopefully the Virus won't get in the way....I'm very grateful that our truck has climbed the AACA ladder so far, as West quoted ( The Vehicle is the trophy) I believe in that 100% 

 

The Awards that are given by AACA are there way I believe to show and document thru Judging to get you closer to that ORIGINAL FROM THE FACTORY RESTORATION, I didn't expect ANYTHING going into my first show with AACA but POINTS & AWARDS that I have been given by AACA & VCCA are proudly displayed in my ( Garage Museum) that shows the respect of the Judges for all my effort into our restoration....

 

To add to that RESPECT our 56 chevy truck was displayed in each clubs Magazine the past few years, another step on the Ladder....

 

From what I've seen at  local shows,  it wouldn't even come close to the caliber at an AACA or VCCA show event....plus I'm still trying to climb the AACA, VCCA clubs ladder that helps us PRESERVE our restoration for others to see at there future events, ( In my lifetime I will not do another restoration), It is a Great feeling when other members that are showing there Beautiful vehicles at the AACA or VCCA comment on our 56 Chevy truck, because they understand what it takes to do a restoration on there own, (I do the same same with other members vehicles),  plus we have met some very Nice people in the years we've shown with AACA & VCCA,

 

Some day down the road I will drive our truck,  I will take my truck to our local event just to show (NO TROHPY)

 

No Regrets at ALL with AACA & VCCA even if we wouldn't of made it up the Points ladder.....Hope this help answer your question A Griffin

 

STEVE MAVEAL

 

I agree with Steve's observations and sentiments 100% about the vehicles on the AACA Show Field. I had the pleasure of seeing Steve's truck in person at the Grand National at Auburn and at a VCCA Meet in Morgantown PA. it is a head turner.    

[Marty Roth]

9 minutes ago, John348 said:

 

Why on earth would anyone see a factory defective part or any defective part (other then a cosmetic defect) on any car? 

IF IT IS DEFECTIVE IT MEANS IT DOES NOT WORK!!!!

 

Mr P does open the door to another side of judging. Some vehicles are text book vehicles to restore, Corvettes come to mind, as well as Model A's, Camaros, Mustangs, Small T-Birds, and 5-7 Chevy's are just a few I can think of, where the restorer has all of the of the documented information they need to restore the car properly to be correct. Those classes are very competitive, and almost every car is done extremely well, and every year there is few "fresh out of the box" restorations done to the same caliber.  From my observations some of the not so old cars from the 80's don't appear to be held to the same criteria. 

 

 

 

I agree with Steve's observations and sentiments 100% about the vehicles on the AACA Show Field. I had the pleasure of seeing Steve's truck in person at the Grand National at Auburn and at a VCCA Meet in Morgantown PA. it is a head turner.    

 

I have also seen Steve's beautiful truck and agree with his observations. I spoke with Steve during his restoration about a few matters - especially relating to tires, and respect the path he chose. Congratulations to Steve on not only the recognition, but having done it right and done it exceptionally well !

[Rooney3100]

12 minutes ago, John348 said:

 

Why on earth would anyone see a factory defective part or any defective part (other then a cosmetic defect) on any car? 

IF IT IS DEFECTIVE IT MEANS IT DOES NOT WORK!!!!

 

Mr P does open the door to another side of judging. Some vehicles are text book vehicles to restore, Corvettes come to mind, as well as Model A's, Camaros, Mustangs, Small T-Birds, and 5-7 Chevy's are just a few I can think of, where the restorer has all of the of the documented information they need to restore the car properly to be correct. Those classes are very competitive, and almost every car is done extremely well, and every year there is few "fresh out of the box" restorations done to the same caliber.  From my observations some of the not so old cars from the 80's don't appear to be held to the same criteria. 

 

 

 

I agree with Steve's observations and sentiments 100% about the vehicles on the AACA Show Field. I had the pleasure of seeing Steve's truck in person at the Grand National at Auburn and at a VCCA Meet in Morgantown PA. it is a head turner.    

Thank You John.....:)  

 

[padgett]

"Why on earth would anyone see a factory defective part or any defective part (other then a cosmetic defect) on any car? "

"The Awards that are given by AACA are there way I believe to show and document thru Judging to get you closer to that ORIGINAL FROM THE FACTORY RESTORATION"

 

Bet there are some who would say the defect " is how it left the factory". Not agreeing, just commenting. I don't have a "stock" car, all have been "personalized".

[Rooney3100]

2 minutes ago, Marty Roth said:

 

I have also seen Steve's beautiful truck and agree with his observations. I spoke with Steve during his restoration about a few matters - especially relating to tires, and respect the path he chose. Congratulations to Steve on not only the recognition, but having done it right and done it exceptionally well !

Thank You Marty.....Between the 10 years of my restoration to 5 years of climbing the AACA Ladder it has all been very Worth While, looking forward to going as far as possible with AACA & VCCA in the future....:)

[Buffalowed Bill]

It behoves every owner to know his perspective audience and the judging platform before he commits to showing/judging! Anything less then a complete understanding of the process leaves the owner open to disappointment and possible anger. I guess it should go without say that the owner needs to understand how good his car is, however, I think too many owners commit to a judging event expecting to have the judges to tell him what's wrong, and then become angry when they do.

[John348]

31 minutes ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

It behoves every owner to know his perspective audience and the judging platform before he commits to showing/judging! Anything less then a complete understanding of the process leaves the owner open to disappointment and possible anger. I guess it should go without say that the owner needs to understand how good his car is, however, I think too many owners commit to a judging event expecting to have the judges to tell him what's wrong, and then become angry when they do.

 

Great observation, 

 

3 hours ago, padgett said:

"Why on earth would anyone see a factory defective part or any defective part (other then a cosmetic defect) on any car? "

"The Awards that are given by AACA are there way I believe to show and document thru Judging to get you closer to that ORIGINAL FROM THE FACTORY RESTORATION"

 

Bet there are some who would say the defect " is how it left the factory". Not agreeing, just commenting. I don't have a "stock" car, all have been "personalized".

 

That is the confusion, I understand now. it is how it was delivered as new to the public, not how it left the factory. 

[padgett]

Yes, are some doozies. My new 72 wagon was received at the dealer. Could not understand why I insisted putting on a lift before acceptance. Had no fluid in the posi differential.

 

GM had a habit in the sixties and seventies of slipstreaming in fixes the first time a car came back for service.  Go to the parts counter and book shows the replacement part (e.g. 67 PF23 vs PF24) and not what came from the factory. And then there was the '84 Iron Duke.