The Car Which Shall Not Be Named III (1935 Lincoln K)

[prewarnut]

The vanes allow water to pass through even when the pump is not spinning....Just to ensure there is no obstruction with the oil cooler/temp regulator part in the rectangular box, have you tried reassembly and either attempted to hand pump water through in the normal direction with the pump not spinning (to assess the pressure needed) or simply hung the thing upside down and gravity feed water through in the normal (now upside-down) direction - also with pump not spinning? I don't mean to beat a dead horse but obstruction within the unit keeps coming to mind. This should be throwing so much wake at your normal engine RPMs that water is circumferentially thrown to the sides and out the scroll like egress - as in a motor boat propeller's wake....I don't think clearance issues would drop net output to "0".

[Matt Harwood]

Behold the power of this forum! I was showing some visitors out and turned around to find Jason AKA @K8096 in my shop bearing gifts because he'd been reading about my water pump woes. First, sorry I didn't recognize you right away, Jason, and second, check out the awesome:

 

    

 

Jason had a spare water pump that he's allowing me to dissect and measure. It's not viable (check out the big crack down the side of the oil cooler housing) but he's certain that it has never been apart. I can pull the rear cover and take some measurements of the impeller's location on the shaft and in relation to the housing. I've got it soaking in penetrating oil now so hopefully it comes apart without much of a fight tomorrow. I'll go get my pump from Jim's place and do some dissecting.

 

Thanks, Jason!

[AB-Buff]

While you have that apart take a picture of the impeller of the one you’re dissecting and the one that you in yours. I’d like to see if there’s any difference in the two. I think Ray mentioned there were three or four different types of impellers (L & K) I’m wondering if they look similar and are not interchangeable?

[Matt Harwood]

Spent another six hours at Jim's shop yesterday dissecting water pumps and doing some testing. With lots of penetrating oil and patience, we were able to get the old water pump apart without issues (only one stud was a casualty). Once we had it apart, there was nothing obviously different than what we'd done in my pump. Knocking the impeller and shaft loose, and taking some measurements, we found a rather surprising amount of end play in the shaft itself--almost .125".

 

  
Old pump was rusted but not awful inside. Once we knocked the impeller

loose, there was A LOT of end play, suggesting that the impeller

kind of floats inside the housing.

 

When Jim rebuilt my pump, he consulted a friend who specializes in Auburn water pumps and he suggested that most of the end play should be eliminated. So that's what they did--they got my pump down to .006" end play while still able to turn easily. Examining the old pump, there was definitely some wear on the thrust bearing but certainly not an eighth of an inch. Was that a clue?

 

Old pump's thrust washer has plenty of wear. My

pump was in better condition here.

 

  

These photos show just how much end play there was in the old pump's shaft.
The left photo shows where it was rusted in place, which we assumed was operating

position. But we could push it all the way into the housing, almost .125".
 

  

New pump cover had no thrust bearing, so Jim made one and installed it

to match the original (right).

 

  
To eliminate the remaining play in the shaft, Jim used a .060" brass washer

between the impeller and the thrust washer on the front of the pump. That

essentially pushed the impeller towards the back of the pump.

 

Ultimately, Jim managed to eliminate most of that end play, getting it down to .006" inside the housing. In theory having less end play was a good idea, but in practice it appears that the impeller wants to float around in there a bit. We removed the brass washer and installed a slightly thicker gasket to allow the impeller and shaft to move fore and aft about .110" inside the pump. Then we buttoned it up and put it on a crudely improvised test rig. We filled that larger upper tube with water high enough to allow us to bleed the pump housing using my pipe plug and until it was just trickling out of the outlet pipe (which was also higher than the housing). Spinning it with a drill, it actually worked. We were only spinning at about 250 RPM, so it didn't move much water, but about a 4-inch high jet of water came out of the pipe. 

 

Crude and simple test rig showed the pump now

moves water.

 

I'm going to make a new gasket for the end cover that's about half as thick as the .070" gasket we used--my gut says the play still seems excessive. But it seems that these water pumps want the shafts to be able to float a bit. The shaft will be largely locked in place because of the connection to the generator drive (which pushes it towards the rear cover), and that's why I want a little less gasket--I don't want it pushing back to where we had it before. It needs to be inside the housing with a little freedom to move. I even considered moving the .060" washer to the cover side of the pump to push the impeller forward in the housing, but we'll see how this works on the engine first. I suspect I will need to disassemble/reassemble the pump a few more times to get it right.

 

This is a lot of words and I'm not sure I'm describing what we found and changed, but the bottom line is that a lot of play inside the pump is apparently OK and it's better to have the impeller located towards the center of the pump rather than closer to the rear cover. I'm going to make some new gaskets for the whole cooling system and reinstall the pump on the engine then do the water test with the barrel again before we reinstall the radiator. The pump definitely moves water at ~250 RPM with a drill, but will more RPM from the engine move sufficient water to keep the whole thing cool? I'm not sure.

 

[Matt Harwood]

On 9/10/2021 at 7:52 PM, AB-Buff said:

While you have that apart take a picture of the impeller of the one you’re dissecting and the one that you in yours. I’d like to see if there’s any difference in the two. I think Ray mentioned there were three or four different types of impellers (L & K) I’m wondering if they look similar and are not interchangeable?

 

Impellers were identical, and identical to those shown as parts from Ebay earlier in the thread.

[m-mman]

4 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

we were able to get the old water pump apart without issues (only one stud was a casualty).

Considering the Harwood-Lincoln curse, I might have expected ALL the studs to break off . . . 

Here's hoping that its finally fixed.  

[JV Puleo]

On a centrifugal pump like this the water has to enter at the center of the impeller. If I'm reading this correctly, this is the side facing the water inlet...

 

 

If so, your .006 clearance was probably not allowing water to flow into the pump fast enough. It would have trickled in and appeared to fill the engine but once it started turning the flow could never keep up. I'm guessing that the end play, in itself, is not an issue but that you need the maximum amount of space possible between the inlet and the impeller.  In the water pump I made, the impeller faces in the opposite direction so the vanes face the inlet and there is nothing to obstruct the flow.

 

I realize this is a postmortem set of deductions but it's a valuable lesson...

[Matt Harwood]

This is actually the inlet side of the impeller:

 

 

The side you can see in most of my photos is just the back side against the back of the pump. We had the spacer in place to push the impeller as far back as possible, so there was probably enough flow on the inlet side. However, I think the vanes were too shrouded in the opening where the rear cover fits and couldn't "throw" the water effectively. That's why I'm sort of thinking that I should use the .060" spacer BEHIND the impeller to force it to stay in the fat part of the housing. We'll see how it works as-is, but I think I'll need the spacer once it's hooked up to the generator, which will tend to push the impeller towards the back of the housing.

[mike6024]

38 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

If I'm reading this correctly, this is the side facing the water inlet...

 

 

No that is the back side.

[mike6024]

Very interesting stuff. I think you are finding the impeller needs to be more forward, so this lessens the gap between the front of the impeller blades and the housing. I think if the gap is lessened it can build pressure easier. It's like the space between the impeller and the stationary diffuser in my water well pump. It is the small gap between the impeller and the stationary structure it rides in where pressure can build.

I don't think you want the impeller floating, or moving back and forth in the direction of the axis of the shaft. Don't let it float to find it's optimal position. Move it forward and fix it into position, but whatever that optimal position is who knows. Anyway I was thinking Ed was right, I would expect it to pump anyway even if the impeller not positioned quite right. But now I am thinking that too far back, and too much gap between the front of the impeller and the housing may have been the problem.

[prewarnut]

I tend to agree with Mike, no part should be left to float or decide where it wants to be as external forces will interfere with the final and perpetual positioning. Also I still have a hard time thinking the 1/8" described will make or break this. I mean wouldn't V-12 Lincolns overheated and been on the side of the roads in 1933-1936 by the dozens (even now) if this was so finicky? ... you know, at the hands of Ed's tractor mechanics (I'll say Soviet tractor mechanics, just no offense to any party members on here😁). Wouldn't there be a service bulletin and revision by now? BTW didn't you describe the car running hot a few years ago to begin with? There may be more than one specific issue. I have another thought in case this hypothesis fails.

[edinmass]

I expect somewhere there is an engineer who's speciality is knowing everything about pumps. Trick is finding him, and getting him to help you. There shouldn't be excessive end play when the pump is assembled. .125 is way too much. That said, with the flow through impeller, maybe more clearance behind the impeller is needed? Interestingly, the first water pump I ever did on a pre war car was identicle to this one. I don't remember what we did, or why. Since I was in my teens, it couldn't have been complicated. Something here still just doesn't feel quite right. What speed does the water pump shaft turn at? Crank speed? Cam speed? Or some other number? Early on, Matt was placing restrictors in the system, now it won't pump. STRANGE! I think I would Flo test the block from the top down, looking for 50gmp. It can ONLY be the pump, or a restriction.........somehow we are all missing something. 

Edited September 17, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[GMT]

Matt I agree I think there is a restriction between the water neck of your pump and the freeze out plug in your block. This is what worked for me, bolt your circulator flange to the water neck where the pump would bolt to, with a couple of bushings get to a 1 inch or 3/4 inch ball valve close it, put a garden hose in one of your radiator hoses off of your heads preferably the passenger side, plug the other one start to fill your block with water until the flow stops at normal house pressure, when it stops open the ball valve at the neck, stand back and catch the water so you can see what was in there. This worked for me. Just a thought.

[95Cardinal]

Matt,

H&H Flatheads sells replacement parts and also offers high-performance builds of the Model K V-12.

One of the "improvements" listed in their typical V12 build is a high flow water pump.

If you don't find any obstructions and your pump turns out to be the culprit, maybe somebody there could help you identify what's going on with the pump. 

 

https://handhflatheads.com

 

 

[AB-Buff]

29 minutes ago, 95Cardinal said:

Matt,

H&H Flatheads sells replacement parts and also offers high-performance builds of the Model K V-12.

One of the "improvements" listed in their typical V12 build is a high flow water pump.

If you don't find any obstructions and your pump turns out to be the culprit, maybe somebody there could help you identify what's going on with the pump. 

 

https://handhflatheads.com

I'm pretty sure that's not "K" Lincoln... Zephyr v12 different animal

[edinmass]

34 minutes ago, AB-Buff said:

I'm pretty sure that's not "K" Lincoln... Zephyr v12 different animal

 

 

You are correct......👍

[prewarnut]

This may help...only 90 pages of fun - circa 1911:

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrCmnT_8z9hdXcA1wIPxQt.;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1631609983/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.ideals.illinois.edu%2fbitstream%2fhandle%2f2142%2f54309%2ftheorydesignofce00leve.pdf%3fsequence%3d2/RK=2/RS=gA4gyIlni86cptDcW1L_..eSYbY-

[95Cardinal]

19 minutes ago, AB-Buff said:

I'm pretty sure that's not "K" Lincoln... Zephyr v12 different animal

Yes, you're correct; all the V12 pics on the site are Zephyr...but I was thinking it might be worth a call to ask if they have any knowledge that can help.

[ply33]

1 hour ago, prewarnut said:

This may help...only 90 pages of fun - circa 1911:

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrCmnT_8z9hdXcA1wIPxQt.;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1631609983/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.ideals.illinois.edu%2fbitstream%2fhandle%2f2142%2f54309%2ftheorydesignofce00leve.pdf%3fsequence%3d2/RK=2/RS=gA4gyIlni86cptDcW1L_..eSYbY-

Boy, that doesn’t look like a thesis for a BS degree. Maybe masters or PhD. Either that or colleges really slacked off between 1911 and when I got my degree in the 1970s.

[m-mman]

14 hours ago, ply33 said:

Boy, that doesn’t look like a thesis for a BS degree.

Wow! that deserves a degree in typing and typesetting.  Type it and then hand draw all the math and equations!!  I am impressed. 

 

Some typos fixed in pencil, but you can imagine the many mistakes that forced someone to go back and do an entire page over again. Work it up and then go back and do it again, and again.  

 

Kinda what Matt is enduring in his project. And just like the 1911 paper, He is doing the work and we get to learn.  Thank you Matt for allowing us to come along on your odyssey.

 

[Matt Harwood]

There's an industrial pump rebuilder up the street from my shop. Jim is bringing the pump over later today and we were going to install it to see if it works. However, I was thinking maybe I'd take it to the pump shop first and have them look it over. I don't think I'll tell them what it's from, but a centrifugal pump is a centrifugal pump and maybe they have a guy who has been there for 40 years who will know exactly how it's supposed to be set up.

 

Worth a shot, no?

[AB-Buff]

Excellent, great idea. You’re right a pump is a pump. Let us know what you find out!

[Matt Harwood]

So I took both water pumps to Cleveland Pump Repair Services up the street and after talking my way past a receptionist met my new friend Mike. Mike was able to diagnose my problem in 10 seconds flat and by looking at the dissected old, rusty pump, explained exactly what I need to do. Obviously the impeller was too far back in the housing, meaning too close to the back cover, and without the front wall of the housing to build pressure, well, it couldn't build pressure. The impeller's vanes need to be quite close to the front of the housing--Mike says .030" clearance is plenty, so that's what I'll aim for. There should only be .010-.020" play in the shaft itself, preferably less so that the drive doesn't push the impeller away from the housing and reduce flow. It's impossible to know how worn the thrust bushings are, so I'll need to do a lot of measuring to get the numbers right. He also said the bleed hole I added was a good idea given the design of the pump because air bubbles tend to transform it from a pump to a blender.

 

Now I know what I need to do. I'll take the pump apart (again) tonight and do some measuring, then get some brass shims to accurately locate the impeller inside the housing. Hopefully it's just as easy as Mike said it would be.

 

Nice!

 

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I’m storing this one away with the story I heard about the impeller being backwards.

[Laughing Coyote]

Well I bet that's refreshing to hear.  If all goes well, then it's time to buy Mike some beer and a ride in a Lincoln.  

[dalef62]

Good call on taking it down the street to the pump expert!!!!  Thanks Mike!

[JV Puleo]

5 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Now I know what I need to do. I'll take the pump apart (again) tonight and do some measuring, then get some brass shims to accurately locate the impeller inside the housing. Hopefully it's just as easy as Mike said it would be.

 

Nice!

 

 

 

You probably know this but you want bronze thrust washers...not brass. Bronze wears much better - brass is never used for that purpose and only very rarely for bushings...although practically everyone uses the wrong term.

[Steve9]

What a relief! It’s great you had an expert there to lend a hand. Very anxiously waiting to see Edsel Ford’s spawn on the road again.

[Matt Harwood]

I believe I have an operational water pump [fingers crossed]. 

I took some measurements before disassembly and found that there was almost .080" of end play, so most of that needed to be eliminated. I took it apart and pushed the impeller all the way against the built-in thrust bushing. I couldn't get a feeler gauge in there to measure clearance between the impeller and the housing like Mike suggested, but I assumed that having the impeller against the original built-in thrust bushing would provide adequate clearance (unless the bushing was badly worn, but I don't believe it is).

 

I decided that if the impeller was tight against the

original thrust bushing, it would be properly positioned

and there'd be adequate clearance. So that's what I did.

 

To remove some of the end play, I added a .0625" brass (sorry, Joe, I saw your post too late so I guess I'll take it apart tomorrow and use a bronze washer instead) washer to push the impeller towards the front of the housing. I made a new gasket from Fel-Pro 3075, which is .047" thick, about half the thickness of the gasket that Jim used to reassemble it. With the end cover snugged down, I could test end play.

 

  
You can see my brass spacer on the back of the impeller. I smeared the rear

thrust bushing with some water pump grease, then reassembled the pump.

 

   
With the end cover in place, end play was .013" which is in the right neighborhood;

Mike said .010-.020" end play would be fine. 

 

Once I was satisfied that end play was set and that the impeller was properly positioned, I greased the shaft and installed the packing. You might recall when I first got the car, one of the very first things it did was empty its radiator through the packing on the water pump. Replacing it with the pump still on the engine is a difficult job and I spent about three days trying to get some packing in there, losing my temper frequently. Then I discovered these neat little rings made for Model A Ford water pumps, which share the 5/8" diameter water pump shaft with the Lincoln K. My lovely wife with her smaller fingers was able to get the rings into the pump and voila! The leak was cured. I had a bunch of the graphite rings (which you can get from Snyder's Antique Auto Parts) left over, so I slid them onto the shaft and tightened the packing nut. With the clean housing and new stainless shaft, it took four rings. Once it was all snug I was still able to turn the shaft by hand so there wasn't any binding--a good sign.

 

Remember these guys?

 

And this lady?

 

These rings sure make packing a water pump easy!
I used a bit of waterproof grease so the rings don't

chew into the shaft.

 

With the packing in place, I reinstalled the bracket that connects the water pump shaft to the generator shaft via a rag joint. I installed it as close to the body of the pump as possible in order to reduce any thrust imparted by the rag joint, which was pretty tight. My goal is to have the water pump shaft spinning with neutral thrust; that should keep it alive indefinitely. 

 

Hopefully the 1/8" of extra space I bought by

pushing the bracket towards the packing nut will

allow the shaft to spin without any pressure on it.

 

Finally, with the pump reassembled, I switched out my bleeder plug for an antique-looking Schrader valve to make bleeding the water pump easier. Removing the plug makes coolant spray all over the place and it's hard to reinstall the plug with pipe dope on the threads while water is spraying out. With the Schrader valve I can simply push it down briefly and bleed off any trapped air. Simple.

 

  

Schrader valve will make bleeding the pump quick, clean, and easy.

 

Here's a look through the inlet at the oil cooler

bypass, which I reinstalled.

 

  

Water pump finished. I'll paint the edge of the blue gasket black to

help it blend in a little better. Or not, we'll see how visible it is.

 

Of course, Joe (@JV Puleo)  is surely right, and that spacer I used should be bronze instead of brass and maybe even slightly larger in diameter. I'll go to McMaster tomorrow and bet a bronze thrust washer to replace it. The back of the pump is easy enough to disassemble and I installed the gasket dry so it should only take a few minutes to swap it out for the right part. Thanks for the advice, Joe!

 

I'm fairly confident that it'll work. Maybe I'll be ambitious enough to install it on the engine, set up the water barrel, and fire it tomorrow, but I bet I don't get to testing before the weekend. We'll see...

 

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I don't think I'd push the impeller up against the front thrust washer. The trick for adjusting that would be to put something between the impeller and the washer - like several sheets of paper, some shim stock, chipboard...anything that is about the right thickness. If the pro said .030 was plenty, I'd aim for that or maybe .020. Then set the thrust washers on the other side. Chances are you won't get a perfect fit but the play will be within tolerance. When you pull the spacer out, you'll have a tiny bit of end play. You don't want it rubbing - that will only accelerate wear. I think the impeller should be free to move back and forth a tiny bit. This will minimize wear on both ends without compromising performance.

 

If you have a dial indicator...secure the pump to something, push the impeller forward and set the indicator against the end of the shaft set at zero. Then push the shaft toward the indicator until it stops - that will give you an accurate measurement for the end play.

 

The Schrader valve is brilliant!

Edited September 16, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

5 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

I don't think I'd push the impeller up against the front thrust washer. The trick for adjusting that would be to put something between the impeller and the washer - like several sheets of paper, some shim stock, chipboard...anything that is about the right thickness. If the pro said .030 was plenty, I'd aim for that or maybe .020. Then set the thrust washers on the other side. Chances are you won't get a perfect fit but the play will be withing tolerance. When you pull the spacer out, you'll have a tiny bit of end play. You don't want it rubbing - that will only accelerate wear. I think the impeller should be free to move back and forth a tiny bit. This will minimize wear on both ends without compromising performance.

 

If you have a dial indicator...secure the pump down to something, push the impeller forward and set the indicator against the end of the shaft set at zero. Then push the shaft toward the indicator until it stops - that will give you an accurate measurement for the end play.

 

That's more or less what I did. I ended up with .013" end play, which will keep the impeller from pressing against either of the thrust bushings while still keeping it close enough to the housing to allow the impeller to build pressure. The problem we had when it wasn't pumping anything was that Jim removed the end play (he got it down to .006") but took all the slop out of the front of the pump, effectively pushing the impeller away from the housing and killing its ability to pump. I did just the opposite and moved the spacer behind the impeller to push it closer to the housing, but left enough end play so that it isn't pressing against the bushings with any force. Even fully assembled with packing, I was still able to turn it by hand pretty easily, so there's no binding or pressure on the thrust surfaces. 

 

[John Bloom]

I like the Schrader valve, nice engineering and a nice touch cosmetically.   I have a good feeling about this.  
 

call in sick to work tomorrow and get the plumbing hooked up for a trial run.......you can dock yourself an hours pay for calling in sick. 
 

waiting for the next update.......

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

Swapped out the brass spacer for a bronze "oilite" bushing, then buttoned it back up. End play is down to .011" which I think is still OK. It still turns easily and doesn't ride specifically on either thrust bushing. I think it's OK. 

 

Then I mounted it on the car and installed the rag joint between the generator and water pump, which is a chore. I only used one joint instead of two, so it's thinner than it was but I don't think I'll have problems. If it self-destructs, I'll figure out a solution then.

 

Sadly, the car just doesn't want to be fixed. Installing the oil lines from the block to the water pump was a major PITA even though I've done that particular job perhaps a half dozen times before. The holes just didn't want to line up. I made new gaskets out of thinner material (God I'm sick of making gaskets), loosened the water pump mounting bolts, and eventually was able to work them into position. It only took three hours. I cursed at the stupid thing and went home.

 

I'll finish installing the water manifolds on Saturday, rig up my test barrel, and fire it up to see what happens. Hopefully this particular problem is solved...

 

 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[keiser31]

Best of luck on it!

[AB-Buff]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

only used one joint instead of two, so it's thinner than it was but I don't think I'll have problems.

Mine only has one 

L

[Matt Harwood]

Oh God f*(king dammit.

 

[Bloo]

What is that?

 

[dalef62]

Something lodged in the water passages?  

 

Edited September 17, 2021 by dalef62 (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

That, my friends, is an .015" main bearing cap shim that I neglected to reinstall when I had the bottom end apart. I found it in the pile of oil-dry as I was cleaning up last night. Must have slipped off and landed on the wooden stand when I was putting it back together.

 

Guess I know what I'm doing this weekend and it isn't testing a water pump or doing something I'll enjoy.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Bloo]

GAH!