Viking - Defunct GM brand

[eweave]

Anyone have any leads on parts or people who are familiar with the brand. The vehicle shared Oldsmobile and Cadillac parts and my father has two incomplete models.

One is a 1929 four door and the other is a 1930 roadster.

Both are very incomplete.

 

Thanks

Edited December 26, 2019 by eweave
Grammar (see edit history)

[Mark Gregory]

I have never heard of the car but here is some information about the car.

 

Viking is an automobile manufactured by General Motors' Oldsmobile division, in Lansing, Michigan, for model years 1929 to 1931 and used the GM B platform.

Viking was part of Alfred Sloan's companion make program introduced to help span gaps in General Motors’ pricing structure, and was marketed through GM's Oldsmobile division. Viking was one of four makes introduced by General Motors, the other lines (and their GM divisions) being Pontiac (Oakland), Marquette (Buick) and LaSalle (Cadillac). Of the four makes, Viking was the only one priced higher than its "parent" make.^[1]

 

1930 Viking

Riding a 125 in (3,175 mm) wheelbase with steel semi-elliptic springs and a 44 1/2 foot turning circle,^[2] Vikings were powered by a monobloc V8 engine, the first automobile using this type of engine construction.^[1] Vikings were available as 4-door sedan, deluxe 4-door sedan, convertible coupé with rear deck seat, deluxe convertible coupé with rear deck seat, close-coupled 4-door sedan and deluxe close-coupled 4-door sedan.^[1] The front seat and the steering wheel were adjustable.^[3]

Viking production for 1929 was 4,058 units and 1930 2,813.^[1] GM discontinued the Viking and the Marquette at the end of the 1930 model year, preferring to bet on Oldsmobile and Buick which had better consumer awareness. However, an additional 353 units were assembled using existing parts and marketed as 1931 models.^[1]

 

[Steve Moskowitz]

I will PM you with some info on Viking owners.  There are indeed a few around but Parts may be a problem!!  Info I have is a bit old but Vikings have been shown at Olds and AACA meets for years. 

[TexRiv_63]

Radiator Emblem

[Guest]

V-8, that's interesting.

[joe_padavano]

17 minutes ago, GregLaR said:

V-8, that's interesting.

 

[Guest]

Interesting how the engine is so similar to the Oakland/Pontiac V8 but without the svncronizer lever.  Also neat that they describe it as having a "down-draft intake manifold" but not mentioning that it still has an ancient up-draft carburetor.  Salesmanship brainwashing the customer.

[58L-Y8]

A mass-produced mono-block V-8 engine fully three years before the '32 Ford V-8 that everyone thinks was the first. GM deserves more recognition for this accomplishment with both the Viking and Oakland-Pontiac mono-block V-8's.  One wonders why these engines weren't developed further and utilized by both automakers rather than straight eights.

[carbking]

38 minutes ago, Tinindian said:

Interesting how the engine is so similar to the Oakland/Pontiac V8 but without the svncronizer lever.  Also neat that they describe it as having a "down-draft intake manifold" but not mentioning that it still has an ancient up-draft carburetor.  Salesmanship brainwashing the customer.

Oldsmobile used a Johnson type R updraft carburetor on the Viking. This is the same type that Packard tried for 4 months in 1929, and then stopped, and went back to Detroit Lubricator.

 

I started playing with carburetors in 1960, and to this date have not seen a complete rebuildable Johnson type R.

 

Jon.

[edinmass]

Have you ever seen a Johnson carburetor worth rebuilding? 😎

[PONTIAC1953]

5 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:

A mass-produced mono-block V-8 engine fully three years before the '32 Ford V-8 that everyone thinks was the first. GM deserves more recognition for this accomplishment with both the Viking and Oakland-Pontiac mono-block V-8's.  One wonders why these engines weren't developed further and utilized by both automakers rather than straight eights.

a straight eight using a 90 degree crankshaft was inherently a much more smoother running engine, and more economically to manufacture.

[carbking]

9 hours ago, edinmass said:

Have you ever seen a Johnson carburetor worth rebuilding? 😎

 

No, but it IS the holiday season, was trying to be nice, not naughty!

 

Jon

[60FlatTop]

45 minutes ago, carbking said:

No, but it IS the holiday season, was trying to be nice, not naughty!

 

That sounds a lot like me saying "restraint is my least recognized attribute"

 

Bernie

[Old buicks 2]

If you get it close to running, I have NOS points, rotor and dist cap for the Vikings

 

tom

[Billy Kingsley]

I believe Viking is the only GM companion brand I've never seen in person. Hopefully someday.

[58L-Y8]

19 hours ago, pontiac1953 said:

a straight eight using a 90 degree crankshaft was inherently a much more smoother running engine, and more economically to manufacture.

That was true at the time, certainly in the early 1930's.  I suspect the lessons learned from those two engines was included in the development of GM's next mono-block V8; the '36 Cadillac 322 and 346.   This time, they got it right in spades!

[8E45E]

3 hours ago, Billy Kingsley said:

I believe Viking is the only GM companion brand I've never seen in person. Hopefully someday.

Have you ever seen a Cartercar? Sheridan? Oakland? or a Marquette?

 

Craig

[Matt Harwood]

When I was a kid a friend of my father's had a yellow Viking roadster. I recall thinking it was a big car, but I was just a little kid. I remember liking the sound it made. Was the Viking a half step up from Olds or a half step down?

[Guest]

3 hours ago, 8E45E said:

7 hours ago, Billy Kingsley said:

I believe Viking is the only GM companion brand I've never seen in person. Hopefully someday.

Have you ever seen a Cartercar? Sheridan? Oakland? or a Marquette?

8E45E Oakland is NOT the companion car.  Pontiac is.  Pontiac is the one companion car that outlasted the marque that it was companion to.

[8E45E]

6 hours ago, Tinindian said:

8E45E Oakland is NOT the companion car.  Pontiac is.  Pontiac is the one companion car that outlasted the marque that it was companion to.

Pontiac started out as the 'companion car' in 1926, but by 1929, the Oakland demoted itself to becoming the tagalong companion car.

 

Craig

Edited December 28, 2019 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

Was the Viking a half step up from Olds or a half step down?

 

Matt

 

Viking was a half step up from Oldsmobile, in the $1, 595-$1,695 range for the two years respectively, around $500 more than the general Oldsmobile range.  In terms of spec's, they were like a Fisher-bodied '27 LaSalle 303 but with a 259 ci rather than a 303 ci V8.  They unfortunately competed with the '29 Buick 121 and 129 and the '30 Series 50 and 60.  Filling the price gaps was becoming more problematic with too many nameplates. 

Edited December 28, 2019 by 58L-Y8
Forgot Matt's question quote. (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

11 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

When I was a kid a friend of my father's had a yellow Viking roadster. 

 

Around the year 2000, there was a yellow Viking 

roadster for sale--an older restoration--and I inquired.

Could it be the same one?  How many in that color 

could there be?

 

When I decided not to pursue it, I told people at the

Oldsmobile Club of America tent at a major show.

I figured they'd jump at the opportunity for such a rare car

in their favorite car family, but they must have been too

deeply into Cutlass 442's and showed absolutely zero interest

in a Viking.

[Billy Kingsley]

I don't consider Cartercar a companion brand, rather it was one that just didn't survive. I've seen several Oaklands. The Marquette is why I couldn't just say out right that Viking was the only one. I can't remember for sure, and my Excel chart where I track what I've seen is not available to me on my tablet. 

 

I've seen and photographed more than 250 brands, actually planning to post about that in the next day or two. 

[Pfeil]

On 12/26/2019 at 4:21 PM, 58L-Y8 said:

A mass-produced mono-block V-8 engine fully three years before the '32 Ford V-8 that everyone thinks was the first. GM deserves more recognition for this accomplishment with both the Viking and Oakland-Pontiac mono-block V-8's.  One wonders why these engines weren't developed further and utilized by both automakers rather than straight eights.

 

These engines use a flat plane crank which is very rough hence the pud knocker on the Oakland/Pontiac V-8. The Pontiac straight eight was easier to produce and was smoother , quieter and made more or the same HP. on the available fuel at the time. I would like to see a picture of the other side of the Viking engine. Pontiac / Oakland exhaust through the engine block.

You can see all the exhaust manifold runners gather at the top of the engine  at the middle and exhaust down and through the left side of the block and out.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

Thanks, With the known benefits of a 90 degree crankshaft already standard practice, why would they revert to flat plane crankshaft when developing these V8 engines?

 

Exhaust gathered across then exited down through the block!  Sounds as if the understanding of back pressure and excessive heat dispersed into the cooling system wasn't well understood...

Edited December 28, 2019 by 58L-Y8
Exhaust comments. (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

8 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Thanks, With the known benefits of a 90 degree crankshaft already standard practice, why would they revert to flat plane crankshaft when developing these V8 engines?

 

Exhaust gathered across then exited down through the block!  Sounds as if the understanding of back pressure and excessive heat dispersed into the cooling system wasn't well understood...

Ford flat head V8 does it too.

[Guest]

 Earlier you wrote "I believe Viking is the only GM companion brand I've never seen in person."

3 hours ago, Billy Kingsley said:

I've seen several Oaklands.

The Oakland was never a companion car.  It was a recognized GM Division from 1909 when it was purchased by W.C.D.  In the twenties GM was working on the idea of a balanced systematic price step up that would provide upward mobility to the buying public. In it's first two years Pontiac sold 204,553 units   In 1930 Pontiac (the companion sold 188,000 cars while the Oakland sold 24,443.  Death knell for Oakland. At the years end in 1931 the Oakland Motor Car Company became Pontiac Motor Company.  Pontiac was the only long time surviving "Companion car" once the LaSalle was shut down.  Ultimately Pontiac also became an Orphan car in December 2009 following the demise of Oldsmobile in 2004

[Billy Kingsley]

Yes, neither was Cartercar, but I was replying to 8E45 who asked me specifically if I had seen one. (I have seen a Cartercar, but I have not gotten far enough back in my image sorting project to pinpoint where and when just yet)

 

I checked my list, and I have NOT seen a Marquette either. And I was way off on the numbers, I thought I was over 250 but I'm only at 211. Of course, 211 is still a fantastic number. 

[Matt Harwood]

Here's my 9-year-old son driving a 1909 Cartercar. As easy to drive as anything--one pedal for go, one pedal for stop, get in trouble, just release everything and it stops. I figured he couldn't get in trouble in a parking lot.

 

[wayne sheldon]

If you can all pardon a bit of further thread drift. A couple posts including from carbking were about Johnson carburetors, and comments about their lack of "rebuildability" brings a few comments and questions. The 1927 Paige 6-45 used a Johnson model H carburetor.  I don't know just how many variations they had, but I have seen at least four different ones. My car had a '30s Ford four cylinder carburetor on it when my dad bought it way back in '67. The carburetor it had turned out to be somewhat rare, and I gave it to a fellow that needed it a long time ago. In addition to the model H, I acquired a slightly larger Johnson carburetor of similar design (I don't recall the model, and it isn't readily handy to look at it). Most of the Johnson carburetors of the mid to late '20s I have seen were made mostly of some form of pot metal. Most, clearly are NOT rebuildable, with the pot metal warping and cracking beyond any level of reliability even IF one could make it work at all (the larger one I have is that way, so even IF it was a desirable model for a larger rare car, it is basically worthless). I also found and acquired a couple of Johnson model H carburetors, with the hope of maybe someday getting the car running with a correct carburetor. To this end, I did get lucky. As I said, "most" Johnson carburetors of the era were made of pot metal. Some, at least a few, were cast in what appears to be aluminum. I did find and get an aluminum cast model H.

Question to carbking et al, is the aluminum model H (in decent looking condition!) likely worth rebuilding or not? The casting is rather thin.

If I ever get the car put together, and the Johnson isn't worth fooling with, I will just go back to plan B and use a Stromberg or Zenith brass carburetor of the era. I have a couple of those squirreled away on a shelf.

 

Billy K, I look forward to seeing a thread listing all the marques you have seen! I would find that very interesting.

 

Now back to the Viking! I have seen a couple over the years, but there does not appear to be many around. I do hope eweave can get one or both of theirs back on the road, as they were meant to be. Depending upon what pieces are missing? Like with many other cars, a lot of parts can be fabricated with a little creativity and stubbornness. And a lot of parts would likely interchange with little to no effort with other GM Cars of the era.

I do hope to see more posts from eweave.

[carbking]

Wayne - I guess the answer would depend on what you plan to do with the car. If a numbers-and-components-matching show car that will never be started OR a museum car that will never be started; then clean up the Johnson.

 

Johnson made brass carburetors earlier than years. Reo was one of their customers. Some 40 years ago, I started offering the new agricultural Zenith carburetors IN SOME INSTANCES as replacements for older cars/trucks. One day received a telephone call from a customer with a Reo, who planned only to drive (if he could) his Reo in parades. Sold him one of the Zeniths. Didn't hear from him for about 6 months or so. Received a package from UPS that weighed about 90 pounds. This was when one still had to pay quite a bit extra for anything over 70 pounds. Inside, there were some 15 brass Johnson carburetors, with a note "please give this junk a good home!". He called about a week later, telling me how well the Reo ran on the Zenith compared to what anyone at the Reo convention had ever seen a Reo run.

 

Your decision, but personally, would suggest the Johnson only for looks.

 

Jon.

[Billy Kingsley]

I posted a screenshot of my Excel chart in the How was your 2019 thread I started. It lists all 211 brands I've seen in alphabetical order.

[wayne sheldon]

Thank you Billy K! I did discover it sometime later and enjoyed looking over your list!

 

Carbking, Thank you. Pretty much what I figured. I do also have a '10s era brass Johnson. I don't know what it is of off, and have kept it as I may have a use for an earlier small brass carburetor. It appears to be in decent condition.

[ConquerCustom]

Does anyone have any VIN information on these Viking cars? I’d love to get a decoder database together for them. 

[carbking]

According to Branham:

 

1929 model V-29 beginning 13 April 1929

 

1929 5-pass 4-door sedan VS-101 and up

1929 5-pass closed coupe sedan VB-101 and up

1929 2-4 pass standard convertibl coupe VCC-101 and up

1929 5-pass DeLuxe 4-door sedan VDS-101 and up

1929 5-pass DeLuxe closed coupe sedan VDB-101 and up

1929 2-4 pass DeLuxe convertible coupe VDCC-101 and up

1929 5-pass special 4 door sedan VZS-101 and up

1929 5-pass special closed coupe sedan VZB-101 and up

1929 5-pass special convertible coupe VZCC-101 and up

 

1930 model V-30

 

1930 5-pass 4-door standard sedan VS-3001 to end

1930 5-pass standard closed coupe sedan VB-3001 to end

1930 4-pass standard convertible coupe VCC-3001 to end

1930 5-pass special 4-door sedan VZS-3001 to end

1930 5-pass special brougham VZB-3001 to end

1930 4-pass special convertible coupe VZCC-3001 to end (my note: same prefix as next line?)

1930 5-pass DeLuxe 4-door sedan VZCC-3001 to end (my note: same prefix as previous line?)

1930 5-pass DeLuxe brougham VDB-3001 to end

1930 4-pass Deluxe convertible coupe VDCC-3001 to end

 

Hope this helps.

 

Jon

[SLDMRossi]

So to simply answer the original guy's question...way up above. Here's an owner:

 

Cliff Baker

112 Boardman Road

East Haddam, CT 06423

(860) 873-9587

ctech1950@hotmail.com

[Rusty_OToole]

On 12/29/2019 at 9:05 AM, carbking said:

Wayne - I guess the answer would depend on what you plan to do with the car. If a numbers-and-components-matching show car that will never be started OR a museum car that will never be started; then clean up the Johnson.

 

Johnson made brass carburetors earlier than years. Reo was one of their customers. Some 40 years ago, I started offering the new agricultural Zenith carburetors IN SOME INSTANCES as replacements for older cars/trucks. One day received a telephone call from a customer with a Reo, who planned only to drive (if he could) his Reo in parades. Sold him one of the Zeniths. Didn't hear from him for about 6 months or so. Received a package from UPS that weighed about 90 pounds. This was when one still had to pay quite a bit extra for anything over 70 pounds. Inside, there were some 15 brass Johnson carburetors, with a note "please give this junk a good home!". He called about a week later, telling me how well the Reo ran on the Zenith compared to what anyone at the Reo convention had ever seen a Reo run.

 

Your decision, but personally, would suggest the Johnson only for looks.

 

Jon.

I am wondering if the problems are because of old age and decrepitude or was the Johnson  a rotten carburetor to begin with? The reason I ask is, with 3D printing it may be possible to reproduce a carburetor in its original state using more durable material. Or would this be a waste of time?

Edited December 2, 2022 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[carbking]

Quote Rusty_OToole: "I am wondering if the problems are because of old age and decrepitude or was the Johnson  a rotten carburetor to begin with? The reason I ask is, with 3D printing it may be possible to reproduce a carburetor in its original state using more durable material. Or would this be a waste of time?" End quote.

 

The brass Johnsons may have suffered from old age (don't most of us  ), but they did not suffer from decrepitude. 

 

Consider that Packard tried them from April through July of 1929, and promptly discontinued them, pressing the new Detroit 51 into service. And these were the supposedly more technologically efficient model R. Do you wonder why Packard used them for only 4 months.

 

Of course, they could be reproduced in miniature, and be a historical paperweight!

 

Jon

[ConquerCustom]

21 hours ago, carbking said:

According to Branham:

 

1929 model V-29 beginning 13 April 1929

 

1929 5-pass 4-door sedan VS-101 and up

1929 5-pass closed coupe sedan VB-101 and up

1929 2-4 pass standard convertibl coupe VCC-101 and up

1929 5-pass DeLuxe 4-door sedan VDS-101 and up

1929 5-pass DeLuxe closed coupe sedan VDB-101 and up

1929 2-4 pass DeLuxe convertible coupe VDCC-101 and up

1929 5-pass special 4 door sedan VZS-101 and up

1929 5-pass special closed coupe sedan VZB-101 and up

1929 5-pass special convertible coupe VZCC-101 and up

 

1930 model V-30

 

1930 5-pass 4-door standard sedan VS-3001 to end

1930 5-pass standard closed coupe sedan VB-3001 to end

1930 4-pass standard convertible coupe VCC-3001 to end

1930 5-pass special 4-door sedan VZS-3001 to end

1930 5-pass special brougham VZB-3001 to end

1930 4-pass special convertible coupe VZCC-3001 to end (my note: same prefix as next line?)

1930 5-pass DeLuxe 4-door sedan VZCC-3001 to end (my note: same prefix as previous line?)

1930 5-pass DeLuxe brougham VDB-3001 to end

1930 4-pass Deluxe convertible coupe VDCC-3001 to end

 

Hope this helps.

 

Jon

I assume the trail numbers are the build or serial number? For 1929 it’s 101- 4030 (or however many where produced. For 1930 it’s 3001-5500 something (2500ish produced). 

[Stude Light]

The Viking was the only premium companion brand produced by GM. As mentioned above it used a monobloc V8 engine but used a cross-plane crankshaft not a flat-plane design. The design of the engine began in 1926, was completed by 1928 and was ahead of it’s time but complex to manufacture. A brand new manufacturing plant was constructed by Oldsmobile just to produce that engine. Unfortunately, the market crash of 1929 put the nail in the coffin for the car and it was discontinued after 1930. 
 

The RE Olds Transportation Museum in Lansing has one. Last year I got that car running for the first time. It had been upgraded with a Zenith G that I rebuilt.

My plan was to get the car running for the Eyes on Design Show at the Edsel and Eleanor Ford Estate so I didn’t have to tow it on to the show field. The engine sounds great and runs strong and smooth.

 

I ended up taking a 1959 Super 88 convertible to that show so Rusty Berg (@rustyjazz1938) was kind enough to trailer the Viking there and drive the car from the trailer lot the few miles to the event.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Stude Light (see edit history)