Ethanol damage after 4-1/2 years

[Pete Phillips]

I got this car running and driving for a customer 4-1/2 years ago with a new gas tank, new sending unit, etc.; 1956 Buick Special. He let it sit since then--never drove it. Now I have to get it going again. Here's the "new" sending unit after 4-1/2 years of sitting with gas & ethanol in the tank. The stinky dust and debris on the sidewalk is from the inside of the tank. I'm open to suggestions on how to get the rest of it out of the tank. This is after half an hour of shaking it upside down.

Moral of the story: AVOID enthanol if your car is going to sit for more than a month or two!

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

[KongaMan]

Put a bunch of chain in the tank.  Put the tank in your trunk, bed of a pickup, etc.  Take a long drive down some washboard gravel roads.

 

But if there's that much rust in the tank, ya gotta wonder how much tank is left.

Edited November 7, 2018 by KongaMan (see edit history)

[Pete Phillips]

Tank is still very solid. That's mostly the dried up gas residue.

Pete

[MCHinson]

I would suspect that Tanks Inc. has a tank that is close enough to work. If you compare the sizes for similar year Buick tanks on their website, as well as same year Chevrolets, you will probably find something that is close enough to work. That way, you get a new tank cheaper than fixing the existing one. 

 

Here is a link to something that might be close: http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=130/category_id=102/mode=prod/prd130.htm

 

Other than that, Gas Tank Renu may have a franchise near you. They are not cheap but people seem to be happy with the results from them.  

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

That is insane!  I would not have expected that from a tank of water.

 

  Ben

[60FlatTop]

I would probably lean toward another new tank and sending unit. That stuff looks pretty dry. Just how much liquid was in the tank when it arrived? And where was the car during hurricane Harvey?

 

Shaking and clanking a chain around inside might leave you with a car like the '56 Olds I had back in the 1990's. Full of fine brown particles that never went away and made the tips of my plugs orange. That was a surprise.

Bernie

[KongaMan]

Maybe it's not denial; maybe it's true.  

 

Just because something might occur doesn't mean it will occur.  More likely doesn't mean inevitable.  Etc., etc.

[MCHinson]

As long a a car is being driven on a regular basis, the damage from ethanol is not nearly as bad as seen in this situation. Ethanol containing fuel will do massive damage if it sits for an extended amount of time, such as seen in this case. I avoid ethanol containing fuel whenever I can. If I have to use ethanol fuel on a tour, I am sure to run all of that fuel out of the car and then switch back to non-ethanol fuel for regular use. I might be able to get away with ethanol  since I normally drive my car regularly, but I don't want to take a chance. 

[JohnD1956]

I'll endorse Gas Tank renu.  Did my 56 tank  back in 2002 or thereabouts.  Have not had any problems .

 

Too bad the owner did not take the car out periodically.  Perhaps that's a service that stands a chance of making some $$$?  Drive other's classics once every two weeks for them? 

[Mark Shaw]

Pete,

    Many years ago, I used a whole can of Drano crystals dissolved in two gallons of hot water and a bucket full of 1/4 minus crushed gravel to clean a 1929 Buick tank.  I just took it outside and did the twist with it for 5-10 minutes and rinse.  Red Coat tank liner will seal the steel so it no longer contacts the gas.

[Smartin]

My radiator guy does gas tank work.  I gave him one that looked like this out of a 55 Pontiac.  He used caustic soda inside it to soak and dissolve the garbage...and flushed the hell out of it.  Then he lined the tank with some super duper stuff that keeps this from happening again.

[Pete Phillips]

Closest Gas Tank Re-nu to me is about 300 miles south in Waller, Texas near Houston. The service was excellent--had to do it for a '47 Lincoln Continental gas tank couple of years ago, for which there was no other alternative. It cost me more for that than what I can buy a new reproduction Buick gas tank for this '56 from Bob's Automobilia, so that may be my next move. Thanks for the advice, etc.

Pete

[RivNut]

Water also forms in the tank due to condensation. The less fuel you have in the tank, the more room you have for air.  In cool weather, the condensation is greater.  Keep the tank full of fuel so there's less room for the condensation.  While te car is sitting, do something to agitate the fuel in the tank so the fuel doesn't separate and you should have fewer problems.

[Beemon]

I would advise buying a Tanks Inc tank unless it's absolutely necessary. The difference between new and old is 2 gallons, and that might mean something to some people. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

I bought a Tanks, Inc for my '50  . It is 17 gal versus 18. I would have been happier were it the other way.

 

  Ben

[60FlatTop]

A good radiator shop will cut a tank open for access to the inside, do a real good job boiling them out and weld it back together.

 

A few years ago I got into a job with a rust filled Bentley tank. Their tanks are chambered with walled sections and passages at the bottom of the walls. Couldn't have done a good gob without cutting it open. That is a point to remember since "newer" old cars with fuel pumps internal to the tank usually have a well that the pump is located in. So if you have a keeper less than 30 years old with a cruddy tank you may have to do surgery.

 

I would be more inclined to cut a tank open for cleaning. I would feel more confident.

Bernie

[Pete Phillips]

I put a chain into this tank and shook it around for several minutes (until my back said "That's enough!"). That resulted in a couple of pea-sized holes opening up near the top of the tank, so that's it for this tank. Going to have to buy a new one.

Pete

[60FlatTop]

That whole thing sounds suspicious. Something else must have been going on for those years.

 

It wasn't with these guys?

[old-tank]

That is the most extreme example of neglect, poor storage, galvanic corrosion and inferior tank you can demonstrate.  If you use a new tank, have it coated before installation or just solder your holes shut and have the existing one coated.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

How much different than a '50 tank. I have one.

 

  Ben

[Pete Phillips]

Thanks, Ben, but I didn't see your post until after I bought the new tank. It arrived Thursday.  It is slightly smaller, so now the straps don't fit tight!

Edited November 18, 2018 by Pete Phillips (see edit history)

[Y-JobFan]

Not sure this is as much about the ethanol damage as how not to store your car for a long period if you use ethanol.  You really can't blame ethanol for poor storage choice.  

[MCHinson]

58 minutes ago, Y-JobFan said:

Not sure this is as much about the ethanol damage as how not to store your car for a long period if you use ethanol.  You really can't blame ethanol for poor storage choice.  

 

I would say you can certainly atribute it to long term storage with ethanol. Without ethanol, there would not have been a problem. I am restoring a 1938 Buick Century. It was stored outside in Massachusetts with gasoline in the tank for over 20 years. The inside of the fuel tank was clean and shiny. 

[Bhigdog]

19 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

Without ethanol, there would not have been a problem

 

 

Hmmm........Wonder what rotted out all those pre ethanol tanks guys are always looking to repair or replace. Just asking.....................Bob

[MCHinson]

7 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

 

 

Hmmm........Wonder what rotted out all those pre ethanol tanks guys are always looking to repair or replace. Just asking.....................Bob

Typically salt and other snow/ice removal products.

In the case of the car in this discussion, as well as mine, the cars were parked and not driven. If you park one with ethanol in the tank for an extended time, the ethanol will cause damage. If you park the same car without ethanol the fuel tank should be OK a lot longer than you would expect, as demonstrated in the car that I am restoring. If you drive a car in a winter environment with chemical snow/ice removal, you will also have a different type of rust problem. The difference determines if the tank rusts from the inside or from the outside.

[Larry Schramm]

I just drained the fuel out of a Corvette that had been stored and not started in 36+ years.  When it was put away, it had an almost full tank of gas.  The gas did not smell too bad, but with the full tank of gas, the inside of the tank looked great.  No place for moisture to build up so no rust/ corrosion.

[Pilgrim65]

I use unleaded 95 octane in Ruby , and is currently sat till spring with 1/2 tank should I be worried , sat last winter to but don’t remember how much gas was in tank . I’ll inspect tank in spring , I presume there would be signs of corrosion on outside if problem.

[avgwarhawk]

3 hours ago, Pilgrim65 said:

I use unleaded 95 octane in Ruby , and is currently sat till spring with 1/2 tank should I be worried , sat last winter to but don’t remember how much gas was in tank . I’ll inspect tank in spring , I presume there would be signs of corrosion on outside if problem.

 

Ethanol can contribute to corrosion in your tank.  It is said to keep the tank full to limit the amount of moisture.  Use a stabilizer as well.   For me, I usually have gas left over in my portable gas can for the lawn mower.  It is usually purchased by me in March or April.  By the end of summer(Sept) I will still have 1/2 a gallon left in a 3 gallon gas can.   So, the gas has sat for 6 months. It still burns just fine in my mower, snow blower and portable generator.   I also dump what is left in my 54.   With that said, I would say your car sitting 4-5 months with half a tank will probably be just fine. 

 

Understand the original poster said this car sat for 4 1/2 years if I read it correctly.   You are sitting for 4-5 months.  

 

  

My concerns lay in the fuel delivery systems(carbs).  These I run dry on my small engines.   For my Buicks, I run them every 2 weeks and have no concerns for ethanol going bad inside my carbs.             

Edited November 21, 2018 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[Pilgrim65]

Thanks  avgwarhark 

I did relise it was 4 and 1/2 years stated , but as Ruby has stood for most of the time in the 3 years I have owned her. At first  I wondered if there would be any degree of corrosion considering the extent of corrosion shown  and perhaps  my tank may be rotting from the inside.

however my weekly drive during the spring and summer which is probably usual routine for many members , must help as I and haven’t heard others suffering an ethanol related problem , so I’m not worrying , but will check 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Pilgrim65 (see edit history)

[RivNut]

Condensation also forms in the crankcase and oil pan.  To "steam" that condensation from the crankcase, you should actually take the car out and drive it until everything has been brought to full operating temperature.  Just starting it and letting it run for a few minutes to put fresher gas in the carburetor probably does more overall harm than good. 

[Pilgrim65]

31 minutes ago, RivNut said:

Condensation also forms in the crankcase and oil pan.  To "steam" that condensation from the crankcase, you should actually take the car out and drive it until everything has been brought to full operating temperature.  Just starting it and letting it run for a few minutes to put fresher gas in the carburetor probably does more overall harm than good. 

I usually take ruby to local shops on some pretext that I need something probably 3 to 4 mile outing probably 20 min run , do you think this is good or bad?

[KongaMan]

Seems to me that letting the car run for 20-30 minutes will bring it up to operating temperature.  Put it this way: would you open the radiator cap?

 

If you want to run it harder without driving it, put it on the fast idle cam.

 

When the car is running (by whatever method), it's also a good idea to run the heater, AC, power windows, and any other accessories to just keep them free and loose.

[RivNut]

51 minutes ago, KongaMan said:

Seems to me that letting the car run for 20-30 minutes will bring it up to operating temperature.  Put it this way: would you open the radiator cap?

 

If you want to run it harder without driving it, put it on the fast idle cam.

 

When the car is running (by whatever method), it's also a good idea to run the heater, AC, power windows, and any other accessories to just keep them free and loose.

But just running the engine does nothing for the other moving parts of the car.  Running the transmission through the gears, ring and pinion, wheel bearings, etc.  Might as well make use of using the gas. Run to the store. Go see family.  Enjoy a nice day. Visit your local pub and lube some other systems. You own the car to drive it, so just do it.

[KongaMan]

True enough, but the topic was steaming the water out of the crankcase.  Idling would do that.

 

Yeah, it is better to exercise the whole car, but when there's 18" of snow piled up outside, I'm satisfied with 20 minutes on fast idle.  If one feels that he must put the rest of the car through its paces, there's always the option of putting the rear axle on jackstands and dropping it into gear.  That won't get everything, but the transmission, differential, and rear axle bearings will get a workout.

 

Of course, if this is all taking place inside a garage and you're in there with it, you'll probably be dead before the 20 minutes is up.

[60FlatTop]

"He was so fussy about his Roadmaster. If he didn't get out there and start it while it was in storage he didn't think it would last the rest of his life."

[Ronnie]

I don't doubt what is being said about ethanol damage, but I can remember in the days before ethanol, if my father's mechanic suspected you had water in your gas he would pour a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the tank to get rid of the water. He said it caused the water to mix with the gas. If that is true why is ethanol (alcohol) so bad for a gas tank?

 

Seems like the condensate (water) being suspended in the gasoline would be a good thing instead of the water separating from the gas and settling in the bottom of the tank?  When I think of the bad effects of ethanol on older cars I think of rubber fuel hoses rotting and flaking off internally and other rubber parts deteriorating causing problems in the fuel system. I had never thought about it rusting out gas tanks. Again, I don't doubt that it happens. I'm just trying to understand why ethanol rusts gas tanks the way it did this one.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

 Several different alcohols, Ronnie.  I have used "HEET" which is,  I believe ,  methanol.  It absorbs water.Years ago we used it in truck air brake systems to dry them .  I understand ethanol attracts moisture instead of absorbing.  Rubbing alcohol is isopropyl I think. It probably absorbs like methanol.

 

  Ben

[Thriller]

This reminds me of going up with a friend who had his pilot’s license in a Cessna.  Part of the pre-flight check was to pull a bit of fuel from the (bottom of) the tank.  Since water sinks relative to fuel, you could see if there was water in the bottom of the tank.  The ounce (give or take) of fuel was just tossed...this was well over 20 years ago and environmental rules were a bit more lax back then.

 

Which makes me think it would be neat if we could draw from the bottom of the tank to check and, if necessary, drain any water.  The airplane had some sort of valve that allowed this to happen on the bottom of the wing.

 

Of course, the effects of contaminated fuel could be a bit more drastic if you were up a few thousand feet in a small aircraft.

 

[NTX5467]

On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 3:46 PM, Bhigdog said:

 

 

Hmmm........Wonder what rotted out all those pre ethanol tanks guys are always looking to repair or replace. Just asking.....................Bob

 

Yep, seems that the two fuel tanks that started to seep had perforations on the bottom of the tank, not the top.  The first one had a patch brazed onto the outside, by the radiator shop.  The other one, I took a larger sheet metal screw, a piece of rubber, and some sealer.  I put the screw through the rubber, applied some sealer, plus a larger washer under the screw head for support, then installed the screw into the main seep perforation.  Tightened firmly, not too much.  Both of these were done in the later '70s.  No problems or seeps after that.

 

NTX5467

[EmTee]

The tank in my '56 Chevy has a threaded brass plug in the bottom -- I wish my Buick & Pontiac had that!