Duesenberg Concept

[gwells]

Just goes to prove... there's no accounting for taste! 

[SC38dls]

Is it a Lincoln or a Riviera or a Thunderbird or a cobbled together whatever? Just because it’s a custom Ghia doesn’t make it a good looking automobile. 

[West Peterson]

55 minutes ago, gwells said:

Just goes to prove... there's no accounting for taste! 

 

"Accounting" being about numbers, I believe what you're trying to say is, "Styling is not quantifiable, therefore taste isn't either."

So far, the only better-looking alternative 1966 American sedan that has been suggested is the Chevy.

[gwells]

"De gustibus non est disputandum, or de gustibus non disputandum est, is a Latin maxim meaning "In matters of taste, there can be no disputes" (literally "about tastes it should not be disputed/discussed")... The phrase is most commonly rendered in English as "There is no accouting for taste(s)."

 

And I would suggest the 1966 Buick Riviera is equally well-styled.

[West Peterson]

Come on, Greg. Count the doors, then come up with another idea.

[smithbrother]

Just GOOGLE (images of 1966 American sedans) lots of better looking pieces than this MESS of a car.

 

I bet most automotive designers did, and still are scratching their heads. 

 

It it belongs in the selection of butt ugly cars.

 

Dale in Indy

[edinmass]

I would rather have this car than the one that started this thread.........yes, I like this one much better.

[West Peterson]

4 minutes ago, smithbrother said:

Just GOOGLE images of 1966 American sedans.

 

Did that. I came up empty.

[smithbrother]

Going further,,,,,,, bumpers that look like chrome 2 X 4's stacked on top of each other. A restyled 1932 Ford radiator shell, except the 32 Ford was much better looking.  Out of proportion small vent windows, concave inter fender panels that would look a mess after a few miles of road crap bounching of of them.

 

Looks  like pre-school kids were each assigned a section of the car to express their ideas, then the teacher pasted it all together.

 

Get the idea this arty guy is NOT a fan of this piece, Yes,,,,,,Just my opinion.

 

Dale in Indy 

[smithbrother]

West, that's because, like me, You are sticking to your opinion,  Good for you.

 

Dale in Indy

[60FlatTop]

The concept was to design a continuation as if the defunct company was still in business. So these coachbuilt cars of 1936 (https://www.google.com/search?q=coachbuilt+1936+cars&tbm=isch&tbo=u&

source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwijt4X-iIXXAhVo1oMKHabWCY8QsAQIJw&biw=1600&bih=768) would have morphed into the 1966 iteration.

 

So this

Could have been built in 1966 as this.

 

Lots of proposals were out there. The Duesenberg is one that was actually built.

 

It is kind of like the guy who comes up to you at the car show and seems to be saying "If I had one of those cars like yours it would be better.

 

Nothing ventured, never critiqued.

Bernie

 

Edited October 22, 2017 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

One piece at a time - Johnny Cash says it all. 

 

Well, I left Kentucky back in forty nine
An' went to Detroit workin' on a 'sembly line
The first year they had me puttin' wheels on Cadillacs

Every day I'd watch them beauties roll by
And sometimes I'd hang my head and cry
'Cause I always wanted me one that was long and black.

One day I devised myself a plan
That should be the envy of most any man
I'd sneak it out of there in a lunchbox in my hand
Now gettin' caught meant gettin' fired
But I figured I'd have it all by the time I retired
I'd have me a car worth at least a hundred grand.

I'd get it one piece at a time
And it wouldn't cost me a dime
You'll know it's me when I come through your town
I'm gonna ride around in style
I'm gonna drive everybody wild
'Cause I'll have the only one there is around.

So the very next day when I punched in
With my big lunchbox and with help from my friends
I left that day with a lunch box full of gears
I've never considered myself a thief
But GM wouldn't miss just one little piece
Especially if I strung it out over several years.

The first day I got me a fuel pump
And the next day I got me an engine and a trunk
Then I got me a transmission and all the chrome
The little things I could get in my big lunchbox
Like nuts, an' bolts, and all four shocks
But the big stuff we snuck out in my buddy's mobile home.

Now, up to now my plan went all right
'Til we tried to put it all together one night
And that's when we noticed that something was definitely wrong.

The transmission was a fifty three
And the motor turned out to be a seventy three
And when we tried to put in the bolts all the holes were gone.

So we drilled it out so that it would fit
And with a little bit of help with an adapter kit
We had that engine runnin' just like a song
Now the headlight' was another sight
We had two on the left and one on the right
But when we pulled out the switch all three of 'em come on.

The back end looked kinda funny too
But we put it together and when we got through
Well, that's when we noticed that we only had one tail-fin
About that time my wife walked out
And I could see in her eyes that she had her doubts
But she opened the door and said "Honey, take me for a spin."

So we drove up town just to get the tags
And I headed her right on down main drag
I could hear everybody laughin' for blocks around
But up there at the court house they didn't laugh
'Cause to type it up it took the whole staff
And when they got through the title weighed sixty pounds.

I got it one piece at a time
And it wouldn't cost me a dime
You'll know it's me when I come through your town
I'm gonna ride around in style
I'm gonna drive everybody wild
'Cause I'll have the only one there is around.

Ugh! Yeah, RED RYDER
This is the COTTON MOUTH
In the PSYCHO-BILLY CADILLAC Come on

Huh, This is the COTTON MOUTH
And negatory on the cost of this mow-chine there RED RYDER
You might say I went right up to the factory
And picked it up, it's cheaper that way
Ugh!, what model is it?

Well, It's a '49, '50, '51, '52, '53, '54, '55, '56
'57, '58' 59' automobile
It's a '60, '61, '62, '63, '64, '65, '66, '67
'68, '69, '70 automobile.

[gwells]

Didn't realize the discussion was limited to just FOUR-door sedans.

 

Quote

I find it better looking than all other American 1966 sedans.

 

[60FlatTop]

But it is not like that. Here is the Johnny Cash car. It is just a joke and intended to be one. One pi

 

I have been next to the car on five visits to the museum. The last time it had been moved to a location without a barricade and really enjoyed being close to examine it. Most of the pictures are poor and do very little to capture the real car.  The car is a modified Imperial. There are quite a few tell tales when you look it over.

 

It is an elite 1966 car. In the fall of 1966 I was on liberty in downtown Chicago, near the Picasso, to see Thoroughly Modern Millie, when one of these pulled up in front of the theater:

 

A memorable experience, and it is not some 1966 sedan, neither was the Duesenberg, certainly not some proletariat AMC Ambassador. And less than a decade before:

 

And when one starts with something special, making it one step higher or different is a natural part of it.

 

I have been toying with the idea of putting a stalled (underfunded) '59 T-Bird convertible on a Lincoln Mark VIII platform, maybe I will snag an old Imperial instead. Today I can graph some lincoln and Thunderbird parts on one and get close to the target.

Bernie

 

 

[Xander Wildeisen]

This is a good looking  1 of 1 car from 1966. http://www.conceptcarz.com/z23021/Ford-Mustang-Mach-1-Concept.aspx

[alsancle]

49 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

This is a good looking  1 of 1 car from 1966. http://www.conceptcarz.com/z23021/Ford-Mustang-Mach-1-Concept.aspx

 

I agree, but not a 4 door.

[alsancle]

6 hours ago, edinmass said:

I would rather have this car than the one that started this thread.........yes, I like this one much better.

 

Hmmmm,  might be the years of staring at Pierce Arrow styling that clouding your vision. 

[1937hd45]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

Hmmmm,  might be the years of staring at Pierce Arrow styling that clouding your vision. 

Oh my, sometimes it isn't worth back tracking to see what people are talking about, when was the last one of those crushed? 

 

Bob

[Ivan Saxton]

It might be more truthful to call this an "Exner Concept" car, because  there is really nothing of Duesenberg about it.    Obviously it has no twin overhead camshafts;  nor single overhead camshaft driven by spiral bevel gearing, with rockers operating inclined valves in hemi-  combustion chambers;  nor 14 inch vertical walking beam rockers, horizontal valves with short flame travel and good "squish areas"  and gas flow in and out vertically.    The only real mechanical Duesenberg design element would be the hydraulic brakes ,but  without continuity of the elegance of the Duesenberg design.   I apologise that to me it is a modern little-used car of the 1960s.   ( I wonder why they drove it so little if it was really good.)   I may be wrong,  but I think it is more likely to be marketable to some very wealthy oriental business person to whom the price assures value.

[Ivan Saxton]

Afterthoughts:        I am sure this modern was not at the ACD Museum when I visited for the Auburn Meet in 1980.   I had quite a lot of conversation with Ray Wolff then,  because I still have a lot of correspondence with him, dating back to early 1960s.   And because Joe Kauffmann was worried about Ray driving home late on the Sunday evening alone,  he organised that I should ride with him most of the way.  We did not discuss even the other modern re-makes,  which are at least fairly faithful in appearance to some of the iconic originals.  So I do not know what Ray might have thought of a car which neither mechanically nor externally resembled any original Duesenberg.   I can assure you that he was alwáys polite and respectful towards peoples opinions and interests that may have differed from his own.  He did trouble to explain to me that valuation of antique cars was not always necessarily as declared or printed.  Ray said that trading could be likened to "exchanging one $10,000 dog for two $5,000 cats" !!!  When he determined that I had always most admired and would like to restore an A model Duesenberg, he arranged and negotiated with his elderly friend in Mexico City that I buy his early 1922 plus additional parts, to restore.    Among the extra parts was a 1923 chassis frame, cut and inverted at the rear.   When Jim Gilmartin from NY needed a chassis frame for his project.  I had material folded  and shaped and prepared it to replace what was missing, and made a jig with a correct chassis,  so that when Jim arrived to stay with us and help with the physical work because I needed to protect my lower back which was impaired by injury and surgery.   Everything was riveted back together , first bolted, and the bolts replaced one at a time by hot rivets using the heavy pneumatic rivet tool with sets made from old axle steel.  ( Jim  had some nutritional beliefs which we respected.   But the "gluten-free bread from the bread-maker was  "tasteless, odourless, hard to chip or break, and would stand boiling".  Then he watched that the dairy cows in the paddock next door fed on pasture grown with solar power without alteration by manufactured chemicals;  whereas soy milk is predominantly manufactured from plant material which is genetically engineered so it can absorb weedicide that only kills the weeds.   It would be nice if Jim would visit again sometime.  It gives satisfaction when you can help somebody out too, like that chassis frame for Jim.

[Ivan Saxton]

Sorry to become a nuisance over trivial issues.  But it is claimed that the object was created under the auspices of Augie Duesenberg.   The car is 1966, but Augie left us very early in 1955.  It would be very interesting to get the account from the Medium through whom Augie conveyed his auspices.

[8E45E]

Stylistically, it is NOT an improvement over the 1965 Imperial upon which it was based. 

 

What DOES come to mind though, is this what the 1964-'66 Imperial might have looked like had Virgil Exner still been in charge of Chrysler's styling division? 

 

Craig

[1937hd45]

 

There is a fair amount of junk being discussed on this thread, could someone please post some history on this car? Bob 

[alsancle]

36 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

There is a fair amount of junk being discussed on this thread, could someone please post some history on this car? Bob 

Bob,  it is either Caddy's entry for the 33 Chicago Worlds Fair (along with the 20 Grand, Car of the Dome, Silver Arrow, etc) or one of the 1/2 dozen copies they made in 34/35.

[Grimy]

The Cadillac Aerodynamic Coupe was offered 1934 thru 1937, 20 copies IIRC, in addition to the "concept" for 1933.  It was available in V-8, V-12, or V-16.  None were made one year, perhaps 1935.  I recently saw a 1934 V-8 (the only year with biplane bumpers) on an approximate 140" wheelbase.  The V-16 wheelbase was 154.  Knowledgeable Cadillac folks, please correct me as appropriate.

[John_S_in_Penna]

On 10/19/2017 at 8:15 AM, West Peterson said:

Nope. I like it too. As you mentioned earlier, no sense in comparing to something built 50 years earlier. Much, much more stylish than a Big Three (Four?) sedan of the same time period.

 

I agree:  I like the car.

In the roofline, I see similarities to the 1966 Lincoln, another

good-looking sedan of that decade.  If this Duesenberg, though,

is going to be sold around $400,000, I guess I'd rather have a nice 

maroon 1966-67 Lincoln sedan and invest the rest of the money.

The Duesenberg is very interesting, but I don't need stares and

admiration to enjoy the hobby.

 

But what engine does this Duesenberg have?  Surely they didn't

manufacture their own for a single prototype.

 

By the way, there is a video in the Hemmings ad, and at the very end

of the video is a screen full of prose.  That says that the car was

developed by Fritz Duesenberg, son of Augie Duesenberg, along with

a business partner.  They got only as far as this one pre-production car

before the money ran out.

[Bleach]

Now it finally hit me why the car in the original topic looks so familiar. It reminds me of Green Hornet's Black Beauty.

 

[60FlatTop]

Artistically it would fall into the class of baroque design. If you do an image search for "baroque auto design" there is a whole bunch of stuff that you have to scroll past before you get to the first Exner revival car.

 

I am pretty sure the car has a 313 Mopar engine. They are good.

 

The first time I saw the car at the ACD Museum was 1977. My, then girlfriend and I went to the '77 Strongville BCA Nationals in Strongville, Ohio in my '71 LTD convertible. We stopped at the ACD on the second leg of the trip at Greenfield Village. At that time it was in a back room with stanchions and a rope barrier. I don't know if the gray Toronado four door was there the first time, but eventually they were in the same room.

 

I drove my Ford because my '39 Special was apart and I never did put it back together. Two friendly guys were at the entrance to the Nationals when I pulled up, top down in the red convertible. The first said "You can't bring that in here. It's just Buicks." The other said "Yeah, and it looks better than some of them." I joined a couple years later when I got on the day shift and could go to the meetings.

 

The same Augie and Fred story was on the car then.

Bernie

 

 

 

[1937hd45]

Thanks for the Cadillac  Aero Coupe info! I have to go look for what may be a factory showroom illustration of one my Grandfather nailed to the carriage house wall back when it was new. I can tell the 1932 V16 Caddy Town car story later, if anyone is interested. 

 

 

Bob 

[C Carl]

All ears here !     - Carl

[SC38dls]

It’s later ! 

[Grimy]

We're waiting, Bob.....

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Yes Bob, there is interest.....

[RogerPHX]

I've lusted after this car since I first read the article in Car and Driver magazine in 1966.  I finally saw the car in the flesh at the ACD Museum in Auburn a number of years ago.  I'm glad that some of you don't like it as it's less competition for me.  I can't quite swing the rent they're asking....

[8E45E]

On 10/25/2017 at 5:31 PM, John_S_in_Penna said:

But what engine does this Duesenberg have?  

 

As I stated in a previous post, it is based on an Imperial chassis complete with the standard 413 cubic inch engine.

 

Craig

[60FlatTop]

10 hours ago, RogerPHX said:

I'm glad that some of you don't like it as it's less competition for me.

 

In any conversation, if the marque, Jaguar, comes up I never have a good thing to say about them. I have had 6. They catch fire, carburetors leak, a V12 tune up costs $2,000, they leave you stranded. Nope, they aren't worth much. Here's my number. Let me know if you hear of one coming up for sale.

 

Always plan ahead.

 

Bernie

Edited October 26, 2017 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[MarrsCars]

56 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

In any conversation, if the marque, Jaguar, comes up I never have a good thing to say about them. I have had 6. They catch fire, carburetors leak, a V12 tune up costs $2,000, they leave you stranded. Nope, they aren't worth much. Here's my number. Let me know if you hear of one coming up for sale.

 

Always plan ahead.

 

Bernie

 

I believe you just coincidentally, yet perfectly, summed up my own Jaguar ownership experience. We wrote nearly the same thing, I just used a few hundred more words. http://oppositelock.kinja.com/the-worst-car-i-ever-owned-was-a-jaguar-xj6-472662007

[JACK M]

17 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

I am pretty sure the car has a 313 Mopar engine. They are good.

 

413 ?

[Trulyvintage]

Bad Dreams

 

Don’t Necessite 

 

Bad Car Builds

 

Sometimes a nightmare should be left in the imaginary world

 

Jim

Edited October 27, 2017 by Trulyvintage (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

I drove a ratty Jag 140 Drophead as my daily driver for a bit over a year while in college. It never left me sit and I didn't even have to bang on the fuel pump or unstick the carb pistons from their seats. I think if driven regularly they are reliable but if they sit for more than 2 days they begin to freeze up. Proposed to wife #1 in the car. Wife is gone but I still have the Jag.