1941 Buick Limited Limousine

[Aaron65]

I hope you don't mind my jumping in, Bob, but Remflex suggests that you install the gaskets dry.  I've been running them on my 263 for a few years now (dry); you can see where the manifold moves, but the gaskets are still holding up.

[edinmass]

Machine the surface flat, compressing the manifolds with that differential is asking for it to crack. There is no free lunch, and no easy way out. Manifolds are hard to find as we see people posting here all the time. Your gambling with a prat that has a high failure rate.

[rodneybeauchamp]

Matt,

just some thoughts!

 

You can obtain a green translucent hobby paint (Tamiya or Humbrol) and paint the original 6V incandescent globes green, will give you best of both worlds..... green lamps, no flicker. The paint does not reduce the brightness by much either.

 

Another alternative is to substitute another LED and see if it is a globe quality issue.

 

Annoying problems that are difficult to ignore. They won’t go away by themselves either 😀😀😀😀😀

 

Just my two bobs worth Rodney 😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀

 

[Matt Harwood]

Getting the Buick ready to drive to Auburn on Thursday for the AACA/BCA joint meet. I had my detailer, Mike (AKA "Mr. Sparkle"), give it a quick clean up. Instead, he really went to town! I don't think it's ever looked this good the entire time I've owned it. Here's hoping it doesn't rain...

 

 

I'll spend some time tonight or tomorrow checking fluids and tire pressures, but this car is always ready to roll. I have no concerns at all about its roadworthiness. It's already ready already.

[valk]

Beautiful….just needs a 4-star General flag or license plate.

[Matt Harwood]

On 6/29/2021 at 2:33 PM, valk said:

Beautiful….just needs a 4-star General flag or license plate.

 

 

How about stars on the doors instead? I tell everyone it's Chester Nimitz's staff car after he transferred to Pearl. Nice that the "elephant ears" have built-in flag holders.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[valk]

7 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

 

How about stars on the doors instead? I tell everyone it's Chester Nimitz's staff car before he transferred to Pearl. Nice that the "elephant ears" have built-in flag holders.

 

 

 

 

Touché! Great minds think alike…

[Matt Harwood]

I'm not the sort of person who enjoys sitting around doing nothing, and with the Lincoln's engine still at the machine shop I felt the urge to work on an old car. The Limited has a "to do" list of minor things that I've been wanting to get done for some time, so I jumped in and got started. First up? Soundproofing. The Buick is actually pretty quiet for an old car, but I want it even better. I also have some odd sounds that I think are related to sounds booming through the bodywork (it's just a big metal box, after all), and all my weather seals are shot. Even though we drive the car almost exclusively with the windows open, I decided to gut the interior and do some heavy-duty soundproofing to see how quiet and smooth I can make it. I'll show you how I do it here.

 

I'm not going to go into a lot of details on the suppliers I'm using other than to say I've tried a lot of different types of sound deadening materials over the years and I've chosen the ones that offer the best combination of function, cost, and ease of installation (for me). Some might be better, some might be cheaper, but I've found this combination works pretty well. I've done a lot of reading on the theory behind soundproofing cars and while most of it is aimed at improving stereo performance, it's certainly applicable here. Without going into a full dissertation on noise abatement, there are two primary ways of eliminating noise: one, stop the metal from vibrating, and two, block the sound from coming in. Using a combination of these two techniques results in a tangible improvement to the way a car sounds and feels going down the road--it just feels more solid.

 

So far, cost is around $1500, including the insulation materials, all new weather seals, and miscellaneous rubber parts. My time, of course, is free.

 

My plan is to insulate the floor, the doors, the fender wells, the underside of the floor, and possibly even the underside of the hood (the latter three will be insulated with a liquid sound attenuator that I'll show you). Working in conjunction, this combination of materials and locations should profoundly lower the noise level in the limo. It will also be cooler, the doors will sound more solid when you slam them, and the engine will be quieter from the outside. Win-win-win.

 

I started by simply removing as much of the interior as possible. I started with the driver's compartment, removing the carpet and seat cushion to give me access to the floor underneath.

 

With the carpet removed, you can see the sub-standard

padding and insulation. It's homeowner-grade stuff

that wasn't up to the job of doing anything except

making the carpet feel fluffy.

 

My front compartment has been reupholstered at some point and they really did a nice job of it. However, they didn't really give much thought to sound and heat control and the single layer of Home Depot carpet insulation probably doesn't do much in terms of controlling sound or heat. So that came out as well. It was glued to the floor, so there was quite a bit of clean-up involved--you want the mounting surface to be clean and flat so that your primary layer of insulation (the vibration attenuator) contacts as much surface area as possible with no voids. I used a wire wheel to remove the remnants of the original tar paper and the glue from the carpet insulation, vacuumed everything, then hosed the floor down with brake cleaner to get rid of any residue that might interfere with the glue on the back of the self-stick damping mat.

 

  

Important to get all the old insulation off the floor. My car had a combination

of original tar paper and that fluffy carpet pad glued to the floor. Note the 

sizeable floor patch on the driver's side. Reasonably well done, fortunately.

 

I also pulled the kick panels and found them stuffed with

ancient rock wool that was practically petrified.
Again, not very effective at managing noise.

 

I'm using an 80 mil butyl-based attenuator layer with a foil backing. This is the most common type of sound insulation that folks install in their cars and it's probably the biggest bang for the buck in terms of improvement. For me, it's only half the program (I'll show you the second stage--the noise blocker--when I get to it), but it provides a great foundation that prevents vibrations from travelling through the floorboards. The foil layer also provides some heat reflection to keep the interior cooler. It's easy to cut with a razor knife and remains flexible enough to hug the contours of the floor. It's easy for anyone to get good results. Just trim it to fit, lay it in place, and smooth it down. This particular mat has a grid pressed into the foil that tells you when you've pressed it sufficiently because it disappears under pressure.

 

I debated removing that original jute-backed firewall pad, which is a little brittle. I ultimately decided to leave it intact. It's a decent insulator and the job of removing it and replacing it with something else was just more than I wanted to tackle. I tucked the edge of the attenuator mat under the edge of the firewall pad so they'll work together (hopefully). Sadly, my steering column filler cracked and failed, so I guess I'll have to order a new one from Steele Rubber ($220), along with having my accelerator pedal re-vulcanized ($110).

 

  

The vibration attenuator is easy to cut and sticks quite well to, well, just about

anything. Once it's in place, that's it, it's practically permanent. Note my broken

steering wheel filler.

 

A lot of installers use a wooden roller, but I found this

one at Home Depot made for installing vinyl flooring.

it's metal with a rounded edge and ball bearings so

you can really put some weight behind it. It's heavy,

though, so it's hard on the wrists.

 

I also insulated the kick panel area, which has a big

box-section reinforcement that surely acted like a

conduit to transmit a lot of noise up to the dashboard.

 

It's not critical for this layer of soundproofing have 100% coverage in all the nooks and crannies. Some gaps and open areas won't really hurt anything--remember, this is damping vibrations in the metal. The mass of the dampening mat combined with the viscoelastic properties of the butyl mean that it turns vibrations into (a tiny amount of) heat instead of soundwaves that can reach your ear. About 75% coverage is what the pros say is adequate. I'm aiming for more thorough coverage (maybe 90%) but only because it's the foundation of a second layer that will act as a physical barrier for any airborne noise that isn't vibrating the metal. 

 

I didn't get as far as I wanted today simply because the clean-up (as always) took longer than I expected. Mashing that stuff flat is also a lot more work than you expect. I'll get back on it tomorrow...

[billorn]

Can you show us what products your using for this? I want to insulate my pickup which is noisy with the windows closed and ac on... Is this something anyone can do???

[Matt Harwood]

Wow, this is an exhausting job! I don't remember working this hard on the other cars I've insulated, although this one is more complicated than most. The last one I did was my 2004 Audi "ute" pickup to insulate the rear bulkhead, which is also the front wall of the pickup bed. Since it's a custom build, it wasn't insulated. But by doing this same insulation process on it, it's as quiet as an OEM car. It was just a flat panel, so a much easier job, but it made me a believer in the process.

 

  
I insulated the hell out of my Audi ute because the pickup bed wall is also the

bulkhead between the cab and bed. That single sheet of aluminum was NOISY

before I insulated it using the same techniques I'm using here. 

 

Today I managed to finish the Buick's front floor with the butyl attenuator mat and that was about all the energy I had. Rolling it out is a real workout, or maybe I'm just getting old. I'm sore and weary tonight. This is ultimately about 7 hours of work:

 

Front compartment floor and kick panels are done.

 

One layer is typically enough, but I doubled it up over the transmission tunnel to help control transmission and driveline noise. It certainly can't hurt. I also added a second layer on the depressed floor area in the passenger toe board (basically the mirror opposite of where the pedals are on the driver's side) simply because it seemed kind of tinny when I rapped my knuckles on it. Now everything in the front seat area just goes "thud" when I knock on it. Nice!

 

I also insulated the heater box, which is a big, flat sheetmetal panel. As with other Buicks, it's located under the front seat. However, the Limited uses a unique design which features a box over the enlarged heater core, a fan below that forces air through the core, and ductwork to feed it into the back seat through two chrome grills. Front seat passengers make due with some leftover heat blowing out the corner of the box. I've never used it (and, in fact, it is disconnected) but getting the heater system working is on my 'to do' list. It'll involve removing the front seat entirely to access the ductwork, and I didn't really feel like tackling it although this probably would have been the ideal time. Meh. 

 

  
Insulating the heater box lid should cut down on one source of vibrations and noise.

 

The next step will be to install some closed-cell foam over the attenuator layer. I have some 3/16" thick self-adhesive sheets that I like to use, which are good for temperature insulation as well as a "decoupler" layer between the butyl and the final layer of mass-loaded vinyl. Ultimately, I should have about 5/16-inch of insulation between the floor and the carpet and that should make a big difference in sound and temperature. The CCF cuts easily with scissors and weighs next to nothing. It should be a lot easier to work with than the butyl sheets. I may work on that this week or perhaps I'll start taking the back seat area apart and insulating the floor, or maybe taking the door panels apart--I have concerns about that job, simply because my back seat is beautifully preserved original upholstery and I really don't want to do any damage. I may call my friend Joe the upholsterer and have him come and remove my door panels since he knows what he's doing. 

 

The mistake a lot of guys make is that they stop here and just reinstall the carpet. While the attenuator layer will make a difference, it's only one part of the equation and only stops sounds that are transmitted by vibrating metal. Lower-frequency sounds will pass right through, like tire noise and exhaust drone. Products like Dynamat are a composite that include some other products beyond the butyl, but without the second and third layers, it's still only a partial effort despite the reputation and cost. Some is always better than none, but if I'm doing all this work I want BIG results. Three layers will make a huge difference. More work, more money, more quiet.

 

I don't have as much time after work as I used to (spending more time with my kids) but since they're visiting grandma this week, maybe I'll get a few hours' work done each night and keep pressing forward. This is a bigger job than I expected, although I don't mind having something to do and it's not like there's a deadline.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

2 hours ago, billorn said:

Can you show us what products your using for this? I want to insulate my pickup which is noisy with the windows closed and ac on... Is this something anyone can do???

 

Sorry Bill, I didn't see your post when I was working on the last one. I don't really want to make specific recommendations since everyone has their favorites--it's like picking the best motor oil. But this is a system I've used in three cars with excellent results. Could the results be better with more expensive products? Who knows? I'm satisfied. 

 

I'm also of the belief that most of these materials are the same, regardless of brand. There's only so much difference you can have in 80 mil butyl sheets, right? Formulations might vary slightly, but 80 mils of butyl rubber is 80 mils of butyl rubber. Same with the closed cell foam (CCF) and mass loaded vinyl (MLV). I think the formula of butyl attenuator --->  CCF --->  MLV is more important than what brand those particular materials may be. 

 

Here's my pile of stuff for this job:

 

1. Kilmat 80 mil butyl attenuator mats, self adhesive

2. Noico "Red" 150 mil closed cell foam (CCF) mats, self adhesive

3. Second Skin Luxury Liner 1/8" mass loaded vinyl (MLV) sheet, 24 inches wide x 9 feet long (1 square foot = 1 pound)

4. Second Skin Spectrum spray-on sound deadener (for wheel wells and underbody, essentially the same function as the butyl attenuator but easy to apply to irregular surfaces and immune to the elements)

5. 3M Trim Adhesive

6. HH-66 vinyl adhesive

 

The attenuator layer damps vibrations coming through the panel, the CCF "disconnects" the panel from the MLV so that vibrations can't pass through, and the MLV blocks soundwaves that are too low-pitched to cause the metal to vibrate. Together, they smother a majority of the noise, or at least that's the theory. I've experienced it and that Audi ute went from being a buzz box to feeling like the luxury car that it is. The attenuator layer doesn't need 100% coverage but the CCF and MLV need to be as close to 100% as possible, and any gaps should be filled and taped to help block noise. Think of a closed window, then open it a tiny crack--a lot of noise comes in through that little crack right? That's why the top two layers should be tight and properly fitted, and any seams in the MLV should be taped. There's some debate as to whether it's best to glue the MLV to the CCF on the floor, because it's heavy enough that gravity should hold it in place. Personally, I like to glue it in place just to keep it from moving around or bunching up--that's what the trim adhesive and HH-66 are for. I also have a roll of special tape for the seams but it's not shown in the photo.

 

Together, these layers should add up to about 5/16-inch, which is still thinner than that carpet insulation that was in my car originally, so carpet fit should not be affected.

 

For the doors, I will probably just use the butyl attenuator mats just to make it feel more solid and the CCF to block some noise. I'm not sure there's much call for MLV on the door panels simply because I don't have a radio, which is really what it's for in the doors. Installing the MLV on vertical surfaces is a real pain, too. We'll see how much I have left over and how ambitious I feel, but it may be diminishing returns on a car that has its windows down 98% of the time.

 

You can see how I do it here and decide if it works for you. Some is better than none, but a lot is best. That's my theory, anyway.

 

Hope this helps!

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

A little free time tonight, so I laid down the CCF pads that I had left over from the Ute project (I have more on order that should be here tomorrow). A lot easier to work with than the butyl mats and it cuts with scissors. Self-adhesive, too, although you have to be careful because they're STICKY. One mistake and they're stuck to whatever they touched. I only had about six pads so I started with the difficult area under the pedals and worked out from there. 

 

A few CCF pads laid down with more to come in
the next few days.

 

I also placed a sizeable order with Steele Rubber for front door weather seals, the rubber steering column plate, and a few other parts. Has this stuff always been this crazy expensive? I blew through $1000 and that's skipping the accelerator pedal re-vulcanizing. Yikes!

 

I also smacked up my Buick TourX in the snowstorm yesterday and I'm none too happy about that. I was just starting to like the car (it's been remarkably trouble-free for almost six months) and was impressed that it powered out of my garage and driveway with more than a foot of snow on the ground, huge rooster tails of snow trailing behind it. It got me to the shop without incident on unplowed roads, but they didn't plow my parking lot so I decided to work from home and drove back to the house. Powered back up the driveway and just as I'm easing into the garage, the front wheels start to spin and it lurches towards the garage door frame and bashes up the front bumper and grille. Dangit. I hate driving bashed up cars and it's going to be quite a while before I can get parts (they come from Europe) and get it into the body shop. At least this is my opportunity to get rid of all that awful black plastic cladding--if I'm buying a new front bumper, I'll buy one for a different Regal and eliminate all that black plastic at the same time. No need to leave it stock, right? Still, I'm more unhappy about it than I expected I would be given my mixed emotions about the car itself. Meh.

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Sorry for you bad luck Matt..........Just one question.........What’s snow? 🤔

 

 

 

[mike brady]

22 hours ago, edinmass said:

Sorry for you bad luck Matt..........Just one question.........What’s snow? 🤔

 

 

 

You will know when you move to Michigan

[edinmass]

Yes! 👍

[Matt Harwood]

I wanted to get the front seat area finished today but didn't quite cross the finish line. I did get the rest of the closed cell foam (CCF) on the floor and then started working with the mass-loaded vinyl (MLV). It's heavy and a bit stiff, but it cuts easily enough and with some patience you can work it into place. Being a bit cool in the shop didn't help (about 60 degrees), but with some careful measurements and trimming, plus a heat gun, I got everything into place.

 

Finished installing the CCF on the front floor.
A few voids shouldn't make a difference, the important

thing is that it isolates the MLV from the vibrations

coming through the floor.

 

  
Lay down the MLV and work it into position, trimming and fitting along the way.

It was at this point that I wished I had removed the seat, but that would be a 

whole different set of headaches. If you're doing this and your seat is easy to

remove, you should probably do it. 

 

The toughest part is making cut-outs for the various

seat mounts. It's largely a guessing game with some

rough measurements to get it close. If the seat were

out of the car, there wouldn't be a seam to seal.

 

Once the driver's side was in place, I did the same for

the passenger side. It was easier without the pedals

but the heater box made its own set of problems.
Eventually this one worked into place. 

 

A few pie cuts along the transmission tunnel along with

some heat from the heat gun made it lay down flat. 

 

Then I applied a third strip of MLV on top of the

transmission tunnel. A few more pie cuts made it

conform to the complex curves. The tape is just

holding it in place while I used the heat gun to get it

to "relax" a bit. I'll use glue to permanently adhere

all three sections. It lays down well enough that I

may not need much glue elsewhere to keep it in place.

 

Hopefully the MLV will take a set and be roughly the shape of the panels underneath. I'll use some glue to join the seams of all three panels at the transmission tunnel, and maybe some to hold it to the top of the tunnel where it's a little wrinkly. On the driver's side, the bolt-down accelerator pedal does a good job of holding it in place and a little heat from the heat gun eliminated most of the other wrinkles. Maybe a little along the door sills to keep it in place. Then I'll install the carpets and see how it all fits and feels.

 

Tomorrow I may start on the rear compartment, which should be a bit easier. I've also got a bunch of weatherstripping jobs to start. My upholsterer said he'll stop by next week and pull the door panels so I can do some insulating in there, too. This is taking longer than I expected, but it's not like there's a ticking clock on the job. A shame I won't be able to test it for a few weeks or months; I'm eager to see how big a difference it makes.

[Matt Harwood]

Finished up the front seat area today. It took some tweaking to get everything back in there, particularly the accelerator pedal, but with some careful trimming it's back to normal. 

 

  

I glued the center strip to the outer strips using the HH-66 vinyl adhesive--that

stuff is STRONG! A light coat on the bonding surfaces and the minute they touch,

they're bonded. I also added some glue to the transmission tunnel to help hold it

down and glued some MLV to the top of the heater box. And just for grins I

added some attenuator pieces to the radio housing, just to see if performance

improves--the stuff comes from the car stereo market to improve sound.
 

Then I reinstalled the carpet, which fit nicely over the

new insulation. It's a little slicker than what was there

previously, so I may need some Velcro or something

to hold it in place. I also had a cool Buick floor mat

out of another car, but it was just too big to fit. Feh.

 

Seat cushion back in place, everything back to

normal. I even found the original clip for the seat track

adjuster so it won't rattle anymore.

 

I'll admit I hesitated at taking the rear compartment apart. It's original and it's beautiful and I don't want to damage anything. There's a lot to remove, too: foot rest, two jump seats, and the rear seat platform, which also houses a pair of lights. I think I'm going to hold off on insulating the inside of the passenger compartment until I've had a chance to use the spray-on sound deadening material underneath. We'll see how that works, first. 

 

  
Rear compartment might be too beautiful and too complex to disassemble.

 

Instead, I started taking the garnish moldings apart to get a better look at the window channels and how they're assembled. There's one long U-channel around the perimeter, then two strips of window "fuzzy" stapled to the door and the window molding. The U-channel is probably held in place with tiny screws, although they're not visible--I figure taking the U-channel out will involve some brute force. The rest will have to wait until Joe comes later this week to pull the door panels. Interestingly, it looks like they're not just door cards but the fabric on the door panels is nailed directly to the door frame. We'll see what's involved in gently pulling everything apart.

 

No sign of fasteners holding the U-channel in place.
I think just ripping it out will work.

 

"Fuzzies" are stapled directly to the door and the

window molding. I will probably use pop rivets to

hold the new ones in place.

 

Oddly enough, there was this block of wood screwed

to the door under the window molding. Not

quite sure why it's there, but I'll leave it alone.

 

I'll start with the weatherstripping around the door perimeter, then figure out the window channels once Joe has the door  panels removed. I ordered a new driver's vent window glass to replace my cracked one while I have everything apart and noticed that some of the other window glass is delaminating. I'm thinking this might be a good time to replace all the glass. It's not serious, but as long as it's apart, right? 

[Matt Harwood]

Well isn't this a cool find?

 

[TexRiv_63]

16 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Well isn't this a cool find?

 

Is this the same car?

[Matt Harwood]

2 hours ago, TexRiv_63 said:

Is this the same car?

 

No way to know for sure. It was in my file folder of documents that I got with the car (which I never really looked through). I was looking for a receipt to hopefully find out who did the upholstery work in the front seat area and came across a little cropped photo of that ad. I scanned it and blew it up to make it more legible. Without any other evidence, who knows? The history I do know is that it was part of a rental fleet in California for many years, but nothing before that. I looked up the name in the ad, Peter A. Ross, who was a car dealer in Honolulu. Sadly, he died in 2010. Given the pricing of the car, I'd say that ad probably dates back to the '60s, if not earlier.

 

I thought it was amusing simply because I've been calling it Chester Nimitz's staff car since I got it (mostly because I like the name "Chester Nimitz"). I stuck the magnetic stars on the doors for a D-Day re-enactment about six years ago, just so I could get on-field parking (they let me roll in, no questions asked!). I didn't expect there to be an actual connection.

 

Here it is with the rental fleet in California:

 

Here it is at Barrett-Jackson in 2001, where it sold for $11,550. I presume the rental fleet consigned it and it was purchased by the retired military vet in Las Vegas from whom I bought it in 2012:

 

Here's the D-Day Celebration in 2016:

 

   

 

 

[Cadillac Fan]

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Photograph_of_Admiral_Chester_Nimitz_and_his_family,_taken_on_the_occasion_of_the_celebration_held_in_Washington..._-_NARA_-_199198.jpg
 

Is this a 41 Buick?

 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Cadillac Fan (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

16 minutes ago, Cadillac Fan said:

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Photograph_of_Admiral_Chester_Nimitz_and_his_family,_taken_on_the_occasion_of_the_celebration_held_in_Washington..._-_NARA_-_199198.jpg
 

Is this a 41 Buick?

 

 

 

Yes, it appears to be. No way to tell which series, however. Tires look big enough to be a Limited.

[Cadillac Fan]

I would be surprised if he had a smaller series.  

[TexRiv_63]

3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

No way to know for sure. It was in my file folder of documents that I got with the car (which I never really looked through). I was looking for a receipt to hopefully find out who did the upholstery work in the front seat area and came across a little cropped photo of that ad. I scanned it and blew it up to make it more legible. Without any other evidence, who knows? The history I do know is that it was part of a rental fleet in California for many years, but nothing before that. I looked up the name in the ad, Peter A. Ross, who was a car dealer in Honolulu. Sadly, he died in 2010. Given the pricing of the car, I'd say that ad probably dates back to the '60s, if not earlier.

 

I thought it was amusing simply because I've been calling it Chester Nimitz's staff car since I got it (mostly because I like the name "Chester Nimitz"). I stuck the magnetic stars on the doors for a D-Day re-enactment about six years ago, just so I could get on-field parking (they let me roll in, no questions asked!). I didn't expect there to be an actual connection.

 

Here it is with the rental fleet in California:

 

Here it is at Barrett-Jackson in 2001, where it sold for $11,550. I presume the rental fleet consigned it and it was purchased by the retired military vet in Las Vegas from whom I bought it in 2012:

 

Here's the D-Day Celebration in 2016:

 

   

 

 

Great story! I would make the exact same assumption if it was mine.

[valk]

I hope DoD doesn’t get upset with us…

Edited January 25, 2022 by valk (see edit history)

[Barney Eaton]

Whats the worst thing they could do?   Give you a dishonorable discharge?

[Matt Harwood]

Got started on the weatherstripping tonight and it was slower and more frustrating than I expected. The perimeter seals around the doors are glued in place and the sticky weatherstripping adhesive is, well, really sticky and not as thick as I'd like--goopy yet runny. It took some experimenting to figure out a technique that worked. I've been doing a lot of reading about installing the stuff, but until you're in there, it's hard to know how it's going to behave. 

 

First up, I had to remove the old weatherstripping, which was hard and brittle and came off in little chunks. There was a LOT of glue smeared around to try to keep it in place but it was well and truly shot. It broke off in 2-inch chunks, so I used a putty knife to slice it off the door frame and that worked a little better. Then I used a brass wire wheel in my drill to clean off the remaining adhesive and rust, then wiped the whole thing down with acetone for a clean surface.

 

Old weatherstripping removed and adhesive cleaned

up with a wire wheel and acetone.

 

Once all the surfaces were clean, I test fitted the new weatherstripping, which has two distinct profiles--one for the top and sides of the door, and a flatter profile for the bottom edge. There's also a formed corner, which is where the instructions say to start. So I did.

 

I'm using this 3M adhesive

which should blend in with

the black paint.

 

A lot of guys just lay down a bead of adhesive and smash the rubber onto it, but that only makes a mess and doesn't really bond properly. In the reading I've been doing, the pros recommend smearing a very thin layer on both the weatherstripping and the door surface, letting it get tacky, then pressing them together. I used one of Michael's little detailing foam brushes to smear the adhesive and it worked pretty well. Wait a minute or so, then press the weatherstripping into place. Just be careful to get it right, because it isn't very forgiving and bonds very quickly--you can easily tear the stuff if you try to pull it apart after the glue grabs.

 

I used one of these little foam brushes to apply

the adhesive to the door and weatherstripping.

 

  

Smear a thin layer on both the door and the weatherstripping.

 

I worked in 12-inch sections, starting at the lower corner. I used a piece of tape to mark both the door and the weatherstripping so I know it's properly aligned and not stretched when the glue grabs.

 

Use tape on the door and weatherstripping to ensure

it is lining up properly as you work around the door.

 

Then secure with tape while the glue sets up. Let

it set up overnight before closing the door.

 

As you can see, less is more. I eventually learned

to apply a smooth layer of adhesive and keep it

within the boundaries of the weatherstripping

so it wouldn't be visible. 

 

I stopped with the passenger front door half done (the weatherstripping comes in two pieces per door). It was a bit more work than expected and maneuvering it into the hinge post area is going to be challenging (removing the door is obviously ideal but I'm not doing that level of disassembly). I'll take care of that job on Saturday when I have more time. Joe the upholsterer is coming over tomorrow to remove the door panels so the insulation project can keep moving forward, too. Between the new weather seals and some sound deadening materials inside the door, it should seal up really well and the doors will make that great kerTHUNK sound when they close.

 

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

Joe and Dale from Interior Motive came by this morning and pulled the door panels. No surprises other than the fact that the front door panels were stapled to the wood block on the window sill, which proves that it wasn't done by the factory. Rear compartment is unquestionably original and with everything in very good shape. No damage and all the fasteners are still in place, which Dale says is important since they're affixed to a metal channel that runs the perimeter of the panel. Replacements use clips that hold on to the edge of the fiber board panel, but the originals have a single metal channel that's impossible to replace but makes for a much stronger, stiffer panel. That's good news.

 

    

Four doors.

 

This was stuck in the driver's door (you can see it in

the photo above).

 

     

Four fully intact door panels.

 

Only one casualty: one of the escutcheon plates around a window crank cracked and disintegrated. Not unexpected. The bad news is that they're unique to the Limited and replacements are non-existent. I have one from a different series on my desk that we'll use for reassembly until I can locate I suitable replacement for a Limited. Like the dome light lens, I suspect it will be a fruitless search. Sigh.

 

   
A good escutcheon, the remains of the broken one, and the incorrect spare.

 

I also removed the tape from the front door weatherstripping I installed last night and found it to be fully bonded to the door with no issues. The door requires a slightly heartier slam to close than it did before, but it certainly closes up tightly. I suspect this will eliminate at least one big clunking sound over big bumps as the door moved around in the frame. Nice!

 

Tonight I'll proceed with more weatherstripping work and wait until Saturday to fully disassemble the doors, add sound proofing, and lubricate the window and latch mechanisms. I also have the driver's vent window glass to replace. Still a long way to go on this project. Big thanks to Joe and Dale for making a house call to help me out!

 

 

 

[EmTee]

Hey Matt, since I have been busy changing wheel cylinders on my '38 I was wondering how you handled access to your master cylinder.  I'm assuming it's under the floor like mine.  Did you have to cover the 'manhole lid' seperately?  It wasn't clear to me from your photos.  -Thx

 

[Matt Harwood]

3 minutes ago, EmTee said:

Hey Matt, since I have been busy changing wheel cylinders on my '38 I was wondering how you handled access to your master cylinder.  I'm assuming it's under the floor like mine.  Did you have to cover the 'manhole lid' seperately?  It wasn't clear to me from your photos.  -Thx

 

 

On the '41s the master cylinder is accessible from under the hood. It's still down on the frame so it's not exactly easy to access, but it's much farther forward than on your '38. It would have been a bummer to cover up the access hole!

 

You can see it down low in this shot:

[38Buick 80C]

7 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 The bad news is that they're unique to the Limited and replacements are non-existent. I have one from a different series on my desk that we'll use for reassembly until I can locate I suitable replacement for a Limited. Like the dome light lens, I suspect it will be a fruitless search. Sigh.

 

   
A good escutcheon, the remains of the broken one, and the incorrect spare.

 

 

Pretty sure Skip Boyer owns a '41 Limited... and makes the repro plastic... worth a call...

[Matt Harwood]

Long day today. I finished the perimeter weatherstripping on the right front door, which was a bit of a challenge on the hinge side. While it was drying, I tackled the window channel "fuzzies" on the passenger rear door. I actually stood on @Gary W's and @MCHinson's shoulders, reviewing their Buick restoration work to guide me, which was obviously a tremendous help. I knew roughly what I had to do, although knowing and doing are often two different things. With the window moldings and door panels removed, it was relatively easy to see the window channel, which is held in place inside the door with rigid channels at each end and special clips around the perimeter.

 

Original U-channel was completely shot and 

disintegrated as I removed it. Note the rigid

channels attached at each end.

 

Once it was out, I could see how the U-channel was fastened to the rigid channel with little pointed tabs that were bent over to hold things together. Obviously I couldn't re-use them, so I had to get rid of them.

 

Rigid channel fits at each end of the U-channel. I cleaned

and straightened them.

 

  

U-channel was originally held in the rigid channel by these little pointed

tabs. I couldn't re-use them so I zapped them off with a grinding wheel.

 

Once I had the rigid channels cleaned and straightened, I needed to bend the new U-channel to fit the perimeter of the window and determine how much of it would be secured to the rigid channel that bolts to the door. Unfortunately, the new U-channel is about 10 inches shorter than the original (5 inches per side). It probably wouldn't matter at the ends with the rigid channel in place, but I was a little concerned that the window might rattle in the down position. To get it to fit as best as I could, I decided to simply find the center of the window and the center of the U-channel and carefully bend from there. I used the window as a template and guide for the bends and with some coaxing and gentle tweaking, I managed to get a pretty good fit. Go slowly and allow the chrome piping to slide through the U-channel to avoid kinks.

 

  
I found the center of the window and the U-channel
and gently bent the U-channel around the curves
of the window. Sorry no photos of the finished product,

I was too eager to see if it fit.

 

Once I had it bent, I reinstalled the rigid channel and secured it to the door, then slid the U-channel into place and tucked it in tight around the perimeter. That way I could mark where the end of the U-channel fit into the rigid channel so everything would fit snugly. With the marks made, I pulled it apart again and secured the rigid channels to the U-channel using a combination of weatherstripping cement and some pop rivets. Then I could slide it all back into the door and secure it for the last time.

 

U-channel secured to the rigid channel using

glue and a pop rivet, then secured to the door.
You can see that the new U-channel is 4-5 

inches shorter than it should be.

 

  

Fit was decent but it still needed to be secured to the window frame.

 

To secure the perimeter of the U-channel to the door frame, I couldn't re-use the original clips since they use the same little tabs as the rigid channel. Others have suggested using pop rivets, which is a good idea. I held the U-channel snug to the door frame and drilled a 1/8-inch hole. Then I riveted it into place and... BANG! A bit of paint flew off. Crap. The vibrations or sudden clamping of the U-channel damaged the paint. Not cool. So I scrapped the pop rivets and went to #6 stainless screws. Just as easy to install and the flat heads bury themselves in the fuzzy surface of the U-channel so they won't interfere with the window. I'll dab some black paint on them and they'll vanish.

 

Unfortunately, I couldn't re-use the original  clips

because they use the same little tabs as the

rigid channel.

 

  

Vibrations from the pop rivet tool damaged the paint so I switched to

stainless screws.

 

With the U-channel secure, I installed the window sill sweepers. Most are stapled in place (which they are on the window molding side of my car) but the door side uses some handy little clips that--remarkably--I managed to not damage during disassembly. Where the U-channel was a bit too short for this application, the sweepers are too long and had to be cut to length. On my car, they also curved to match the contour of the window opening--a nice touch. So I gently bent each end to match the original, then cut it to length. Installation was as easy as tucking it back into the existing clips and running screws into the ends. I also tapped one wayward clip a little tighter so it wouldn't contact the window, which has obviously been rubbing against it for many years and scratched the glass. Meh, I'll live with it.

 

  

Window sweeper needed to be shaped and cut to length.

Note that the original stuff is just ruined. It's done.

 

Note that one of the clips was scratching the glass.
I remedied that clip while I was at it.

 

Then I reinstalled the glass, lubricated the mechanism,

and tested everything. Window moves smooth and

easy, although there's a bit more resistance now that

there's actually some weatherstripping in place.

 

I did not install the sweeper on the window molding

simply because they're stapled in place and I haven't

decided how I want to secure the new ones. Probably

with rivets.

 

Satisfied with the window channel work, I scraped the inside of the door to remove the remains of some ancient jute insulation that was held to the surface with what looks like tar. Once it was gone, I vacuumed it out and wiped everything down with acetone. There was plenty of surface scale where the paint had worn off over the decades, so I decided to seal it all up and grabbed some random spray paint from Michael's cabinet and shot the inside of the door with what appears to be Ford charcoal gray metallic paint. That will at least seal up the metal before I install the attenuator layer on the outer door skin. 

 

Remains of the jute insulation were still clinging to

the inside of the door. I scraped it off then cleaned

up any tar residue.

 

While the paint was drying, I added some attenuator insulation to the inner door skin to try to get it to sound a little less hollow. There's not much clearance between the door frame and the door panels, so I couldn't go crazy, but I added some wherever it would fit without interference. It will certainly help and a preliminary slam of the door revealed that it's quite a it better already. It still makes a "clop!" sound instead of a nice THUD, but the rattling window is gone and it doesn't sound as hollow. New weather seals and more sound attenuator on the outer skin (paint was still wet) should give me the result I want.

 

Sound deadener placed wherever there was enough

clearance with the door panel. I'll add more inside

the door tomorrow when the paint is dry.

 

All told, this was about six hours of work. Now that I know how things fit together and the best way to reassemble everything, I bet I can do the next door in half the time. Tomorrow I will finish insulating this door and install the perimeter weatherstripping, then tackle the U-channel and vent window on the passenger front door. The vent window is going to be interesting...

 

[Matt Harwood]

After yesterday being relatively hassle-free, today was a bit frustrating. I finished installing the window channel sweepers, including the one on the chrome interior window molding. It was originally stapled in place, so I removed the staples, made a new sweeper, and secured it using the stainless screws. They bury themselves sufficiently in the fuzz that they won't be an issue. 

 

Then I installed the weatherstripping around the perimeter of the right rear door, a job I'm learning to hate. It's no fun, particularly trying to maneuver sticky rubber into the gap between the body and the door along the hinge pillar. Obviously it would be easier with the doors off the car but I don't think I'm up to that. I ultimately got it into place and taped the edges to let it set up overnight.

 

Last step was adding some additional sound deadening materials to the inner door/outer door skin. All that done, the door does indeed close with a more solid-sounding kerCHUNK. Not quite as solid sounding as, say, a Cadillac 60 Special, but certainly better than it was. And the windows no longer rattle, which is nice.

 

That finished, I moved on to the right front door to install the new window channels. First thing I found was that someone was already in there trying to do some sound control on the door skin and covered it in some sloppy layer of tar. Ugh, that's going to be problematic. I think I'll have to use the spray-on attenuator here instead of the mats. A bit more work, but probably manageable. 

 

I knew I wouldn't be able to hide from the former hack

mechanic for long. What a mess...

 

Then I started disassembly, starting with the vent window. Even after referring to Gary and Matt's work on their own windows, it took me a long time to figure out how to remove that vent window from the door. There were about 10 screws plus one set screw holding the window to the regulator. After fighting with it for about an hour, I finally got it out as an assembly simply because the last screw--the one that acts as the upper pivot on the vent window--just would not come out. I was limited with my positioning and the amount of force I could apply because there's glass there, but it wasn't coming undone. Once I had it out of the door I clamped it in my vice and still couldn't budge it. I decided not to risk any damage and just left the thing assembled. I won't be able to sandblast and paint the window frame, but maybe I'll hit it with a wire wheel and paint it by hand. 

 

I eventually got the vent window out of the door.
It was a lot more work than expected.

 

But this screw just wouldn't give up and allow me to

remove the window from the frame. So I removed the

glass from the chrome frame instead, just to avoid

breakage.

 

How am I going to get this ancient rubber out of

the frame without damage? It's rock hard. I'll have

to think on it for a while.

 

The other hassle is that the existing rubber vent window seals are hard as rock. Maybe not rock, but at least some kind of really hard plastic. It would crack and break off, leaving all kinds of sharp edges, but when I started trying to dig it out of the channel with a screwdriver, it remained mushy enough to not just crumble and fall out. This is going to be a J O B. So I quit and went home.

 

 

[Ken_P]

Maybe a heat gun on the rubber?

[JohnD1956]

How about a solvent to get that rubber softened?  I would try hot trans fluid, then maybe a paint stripper  and if neither worked I would consider a cutter like a grout bit, on a dremmel 

[edinmass]

Use brake fluid to soften the rubber.......DOT3

[Matt Harwood]

Tonight was one of those nights when I wonder why I do this. No fun, only frustration. I wonder why it comes in waves where I'll have a productive day followed by a day where everything goes wrong. It's weird.

 

Anyway, I finished disassembling the front window and successfully removed the vent post without incident. The divider is sealed with a rubber seal on the vent window side and U-channel on the main window side. The vent window seal is held in place with little fold-over tabs, which I simply bent up and removed the old rubber, which just crumbled in my hands. I secured the new seal with some weatherstripping glue and then bent the tabs into position. I clamped it and left it to set up overnight.

 

Vent window seal is held in place with metal tabs.

 

New seal matches correctly.

 

New tabs bent into position.

 

Since the center post was tied up with the glue setting up, I decided to get the main window U-channel ready to install. I had the window out and on the bench and as I did with the rear window, I figured I would use the glass as a template for the U-channel bends. So I did. And failed. The 90-degree bend just wouldn't cooperate and no matter how gentle and careful I was, eventually the U-channel kinked and was ruined. I looked closely at it and it seems that the stainless piping didn't slide properly through the U-channel, allowing it to create a radius. I don't know if that was operator error or a manufacturing defect, but it's ruined and I need to buy another length of the stuff. I'll probably buy two just in case I ruin another one. It's only money, right?

 

U-channel just wouldn't take a radius...

 

...no matter how many times I tried (just for practice). 
You can see how distorted that center section is as the

piping tried to accommodate the radius but could not

slide to make it work. Is it me or the stuff?

 

Fed up, I decided to go home.

 

[edinmass]

That stuff sucks......I have dealt with it in the past. You need to be sure the wire slides inside the stainless, and the ends are open and free to allow the wire to slide. Also, we made multiple special benders using our own dies machines on the lathe and Bridgeport. We ruined a bunch of material before we got it right........it’s more than 30 years ago........I don’t have any photos, and the bender is somewhere in the shop up north in an old and long forgot about dusty bin. I’ll as the guys tomorrow if they know where it is. 

Edited February 1, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

Matt:

 When doing my 1937 I remember having to FILE the ends of the channel and work an awl into the ends so that the wire could slide. I also ruined a section of the material. 

This was the only side I finished. Both doors. A moot point now.

[39BuickEight]

I ruined a piece of that on my car the first time.  The key term that keeps being mentioned is slide.  The stainless has to slide as it’s bent or it will kink.