1941 Buick Limited Limousine

[dibarlaw]

Matt:

 When doing my 1937 I remember having to FILE the ends of the channel and work an awl into the ends so that the wire could slide. I also ruined a section of the material. 

This was the only side I finished. Both doors. A moot point now.

[39BuickEight]

I ruined a piece of that on my car the first time.  The key term that keeps being mentioned is slide.  The stainless has to slide as it’s bent or it will kink. 

[edinmass]

The more I think about it......it sucks even more than I remembered.

Edited February 1, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

If I recall correctly, I used a grinding wheel lightly on the ends to clean up where the factory cut the ends of that material. If it was crimped a bit when the factory cut it, the inner piece won't slide and as you know, you get an ugly kink. 

[Matt Harwood]

Remember how I said some days just go to hell and there's no way to stop the train once it comes off the tracks? That was today. I call situations like this "cascading failures" where everything goes wrong and everything I do to get back on track only makes it worse. The only safe thing to do is go home and touch nothing and sit and do nothing until it passes.

 

New cowl vent seal fits like crap. This is my

third one. The Limited must be unique somehow.

 

Steele sent me the wrong glovebox door bumpers.

These won't work, it still rattles.

 

Went to work on the U-channel and my pop rivet

tool swallowed a tang and wouldn't let go.

Enjoy the trash bin, crap tool.

 

Semi-expensive new pop rivet tool broke its spring on

the first pull. At least it will have company in the trash.

 

  

Switch back to screws and the heads all snap off, even when

tightening them by hand. Same bag as the others, but somehow

I managed to find the three defective ones? WTF?

 

Drill trigger stopped working, so I murdered it.

Screw you, drill, I'm glad you're dead.

 

Spent 45 minutes driving home, a distance of 3 miles.

NOTE: I walk it in 45 minutes.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

On 1/31/2022 at 8:36 PM, edinmass said:

That stuff sucks......I have dealt with it in the past. You need to be sure the wire slides inside the stainless, and the ends are open and free to allow the wire to slide. Also, we made multiple special benders using our own dies machines on the lathe and Bridgeport. We ruined a bunch of material before we got it right........it’s more than 30 years ago........I don’t have any photos, and the bender is somewhere in the shop up north in an old and long forgot about dusty bin. I’ll as the guys tomorrow if they know where it is. 

Been there done that too - I recall making a jig and ruining twice what came out well (at least well enough).  And, people ask me why I like 30's cars more so than 40's cars and they were surprised I did not restore the 1941 Cadillac 60 Special (well, it was a serviceable original car, I hate projects like rebuilding window channels and it was more complicated than you think - try working on it, I like my chrome plated - but not that much, and ....  

[John_Mereness]

Sad looking drill Matt !

[Smartin]

I've had lots of stainless screws do that.  I try not to bother with stainless anymore unless it's visible.

[MCHinson]

Matt, Sorry you had a bad day today. Hopefully tomorrow will be better for you. Tomorrow will be a new day! 

[EmTee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M

Edited February 4, 2022 by EmTee (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

Dragged myself back out into the shop--this project isn't any fun anymore. I thought it would be maybe two weekends' worth of work but I'm not even halfway done and it's been a month. Meh. I wanted to finish the passenger front door today and got close, but was ultimately thwarted by one simple screw. I can't separate the vent window from the vent window frame, which is going to make installing new seals challenging at best and impossible at worst.

 

Obviously, I can't remove this screw. I actually broke

off half the head torquing on it, so I cut it off with

a cut-off wheel and tried again. This is the result.
It isn't coming out without collateral damage.

 

And if I can't get that screw out, I can't remove the

window frame, which means I can't install the

new seal--that post has to pass through the seal.
I guess I could cut it, but that kind of defeats

the purpose of weather seals, no?

 

I'll also admit I had some concerns about trying to bend more of that U-channel, having ordered two more six-foot chunks that arrived on Thursday. That gives me one spare for a screw-up, and I'm sorry to say that I needed it immediately. I tried every trick I knew, including cutting it cleanly with both a cut-off wheel and a Dremel tool, I used a file to clean up the ends, and even used a small screwdriver to try to pry the ends open and some penetrating oil to allow it to slide. And it didn't slide. At all. I sent a WTF? message to Steele Rubber asking if perhaps they've changed the supplier or something since I bought the stuff I used on the rear door last year, which bent easily and without issues. After buggering a second length of U-channel, I finally got the third one to take a rough bend that I figured was close enough. It's inside the car and won't be terribly visible behind the chrome window molding. I don't like doing shitty work, but it seems that it's impossible to not do shitty work with this shitty material.

 

  

Despite being EXTREMELY careful with the ends and cutting them clean,

I was unable to get the stuff to slide properly and create clean bends.

 

Choice words were uttered.

 

Bend wasn't quite as smooth as I wanted, but it'll do.

 

Fitted to the door but not screwed into place

(because I still have to install the vent window)

 

With patience waning, I turned to adding some soundproofing to the door--a relatively easy task. I tried to get that tar out of there but it's rock hard and solidly adhered to the inner door skin, so I simply plastered the attenuator mat over it. It sticks well enough and using a variety of tools to accommodate the rough surface, I got a good bond. I decided that was better than getting my spray gun out and making a fresh mess with the liquid sound attenuator. 

 

Some well-placed attenuator mat will quiet down

the door. I just plastered it over the tar. Seemed to

have no problems with adhesion.

 

I need to figure out that vent window, I just don't know what I'm going to do there. Drill it out? I don't even know what the screw looks like or whether I'll be able to replace it. It's not particularly visible, but I don't really want to hack it up more than I have. And I don't really know how I'll install the seals--it's going to be a wrestling match under the best of circumstances and it'll be almost impossible if I have to deal with the window frame in my way. I don't know yet what the solution might be.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

Obviously, you need to take a day off before working on it any more. I assume you have applied some solvent to that screw. Can you tack weld a nut to the remains of the screw and then use a nut driver, wrench or ratchet to back it out? The heat from tack welding should also help break it free. If you can get it out, I am sure you can find a replacment for the original screw.     

[Matt Harwood]

When is a screw not a screw? 

 

My friend Nate Seybold (of Buick restoration fame) stopped by yesterday and I showed him my vent window and asked what I was doing wrong. He said that there is no screw, it's just a post that the vent window slides onto. No screw. Hmmmm. Today I took the driver's door apart and sure enough, it looks like a screw but it is definitely a post. And yes, the window frame just slid right off once it was out of the door. Wish I'd known that a week ago. Dang.

 

Driver's side also looked like it was held in place

with a screw...

 

...but obviously was not. Good to know.

 

Glad I didn't resort to brute force or welding a nut on the stub, although I decided that trying to get it apart at this point was a waste. Instead, I sliced the window seal at the lower post and worked it into place around the perimeter of the frame using some soapy water and a plastic tool. It popped into place pretty easily. I'll use some of that weatherstripping adhesive to glue the sliced area back together. It should work well enough.

 

The driver's door came apart more easily than the passenger door simply because I now know what I'm doing. However, there was a curious "mistake" in the assembly of the driver's vent window--the bolt that connects the lower post of the window frame to the crank mechanism was in backwards. You're supposed to be able to install and remove it through an access hole, but when I looked in there, all I saw was the threaded end of the bolt. Cranking the window all the way open gave me partial access to the bolt head, which took a LONG time to unscrew using a box wrench that could move all of about 8 degrees per turn. But how the hell did they assemble it in the first place? Very strange and I'll correct it when I reassemble everything.

 

Lock bolt barely accessible with window cranked all

the way open. How did they assemble it like this?!?

 

Not much room to turn a wrench in there and my

ratcheting box wrench wouldn't fit through the 

hole. Took about 15 minutes to get that bolt out...

 

I sandblasted and painted the driver's vent window frame and while it was drying, I added the sound deadening to the driver's door. This door had what I believe to be factory-applied tar and jute, ostensibly to deaden sound, but the stuff was just crumbling. I scraped it out with a putty knife, vacuumed up the debris, wiped everything down with acetone, and stuck the sound attenuator mats in place.

 

  

Installing sound attenuator mats in the driver's door. I may have over-done it a bit.

 

Done there, I retrieved the vent window frame from the paint area and installed the window seal. No need to slice this one, since I had the window out of the way. A little soapy water and my plastic tool worked the seal into place--an easier job than expected. 

 

New seal installed on window frame.

 

I used the glass glue to install both glass panes in the vent windows and set it aside to let it dry. The stuff really makes a mess if you get it on your hands--very sticky! I also installed the vent window seal on the divider post. While looking at the U-channel for the divider post, I realized that there were two distinctly different types of U-channel supplied in the kit. Unfortunately, it seems I used both uppers on the passenger side and only have two lowers for the driver's side. They're more or less the same, with the difference being that the uppers have a stainless bead instead of a plain steel one. Do I spend more money with Steele (who I'm not thrilled with right now) or just use the stuff I have? I don't know.

 

Tomorrow I'll finish assembling the passenger door and see if I can make the window channel bend properly on the driver's door. Wish me luck!

 

[old-tank]

3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

I'll use some of that weatherstripping adhesive to glue the sliced area back together. It should work well enough

Super glue is better.

[Matt Harwood]

More of the same work today. No photos because I left my phone at home, sorry. The glue in the vent windows had cured enough for me to reassemble the passenger's door, so I bolted it all together. Unfortunately, the rubber seal around the vent window is much too tight and the window won't close fully. I don't want to force it into place and I can't see anywhere that the seal is not properly seated, it's just too "fat." Hmmmm. There are no obvious places where I need to trim it (or even where I can trim it such that it won't be visible), but it's probably off by 1/4 inch. It's not merely snug and I doubt that having the window in place for a while will cause the rubber to compress sufficiently for it to fit easily.

 

I also managed to successfully bend another piece of U-channel for the driver's side front window. It was a bit dicey and the inside edge kinked just like it did on the passenger's side, but it's not terrible. Cut it to length and secured it to the rigid channel that bolts to the inside of the door. I left it hanging at the top knowing that I'm going to have that center post in and out a few times while fitting the vent window. 

 

Oh, and I tried to install the metal U-channel I had left over that's actually supposed to only be used on the lower half of the divider post, but as you will recall from my last post, I ignorantly used both top halves on the passenger side. Since this stuff won't work, I bit the bullet and spent another $130 at Steele Rubber to buy replacements. Feh.  

 

Finally, I scraped the old perimeter seal around the driver's door but didn't start gluing in the replacement--it just isn't any fun and I didn't feel up to it, so I went home and watched the Super Bowl.

 

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

Finished the driver's door weatherstripping today. For reasons I can't explain, the vent window fit perfectly while the passenger side is still off by 1/4" and won't close. I can't see anything wrong or any differences, but I guess I'll take it apart and see if I can find anything. The good news is that the driver's side mostly went together without much of a fight, although I discovered that it's impossible if you don't assemble everything in EXACTLY the right order. I installed the center post to fit the U channel, but then it all had to come out to install the vent window. Then I reinstalled it, but realized the stud that holds the center post at the bottom wasn't installed, so it had to come apart again. No shortcuts available, it has to be done in a very specific order. 

 

All those little screws for the vent window assembly

need to be installed in exactly the right order. I

replaced some of the screws simply because the

originals would no longer take much torque. 

 

  

This vent window fits just fine. I'm at a loss to explain why the

passenger side is too tight. The experts at Steele Rubber

believe it is my fault and that I did something wrong. We'll see.

 

I managed to bend the U-channel without much of an issue, although it kinked slightly on the inside--probably not noticeable once the window molding is reinstalled. The outside looks good. I also installed the window fuzzy and it fits nicely. I talked to the guys at Steele Rubber and they also blamed me for the kinking even though the stuff I bought 8 months ago bent perfectly and the new stuff didn't. They had exactly zero useful advice because I was already doing all the things they told me to do. So I guess it's just a crapshoot with this stuff and if you have four windows to do, you should probably buy six or seven lengths of that U-channel.

 

  

U-channel kinked slightly, but looks good on the outside. It should

be hidden by the window molding on the inside.

 

Window fuzzy looks good and fits well.

 

Finally, I installed the perimeter door seal. I've pretty much perfected my glue technique but it's still a no-fun job. I guess I was getting tired towards the end because on the last piece (which is also the most difficult to reach along the hinge pillar side) I smeared glue on the wrong face of the rubber. Feh. Pull it all out and clean it off with acetone, then try again. Fortunately, this adhesive seems to re-activate when some fresh adhesive touches it, so I didn't have to clean off the door side and everything went into place without any more drama. I left it to cure overnight and went home. It should be good to go tomorrow.

 

    

Door seal installed. Fits well. I only wish I had been paying

better attention with the glue.

 

Driver's door finished.

 

 

[TexRiv_63]

18 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

This vent window fits just fine. I'm at a loss to explain why the

passenger side is too tight. The experts at Steele Rubber

believe it is my fault and that I did something wrong. We'll see.

 

I talked to the guys at Steele Rubber and they also blamed me for the kinking even though the stuff I bought 8 months ago bent perfectly and the new stuff didn't. They had exactly zero useful advice because I was already doing all the things they told me to do. So I guess it's just a crapshoot with this stuff and if you have four windows to do, you should probably buy six or seven lengths of that U-channel.

 

 

 

 

Its pretty bad when the so called best supplier of rubber goods in the market with ridiculously high prices will not provide needed customer support. Have you tried applying some silicone grease to the tight weatherstrip?

[Matt Harwood]

I decided to figure out what's going on with the passenger vent window, so I removed it from the door. And in so doing...

 

Dang.

 

Well, with it broken, I had no choice but to try to remove it from the chrome channel. This is the window that's permanently affixed to the frame, so I have to treat it as a unit. I tried for a while to pull the glass out of the chrome channel but that window glue is incredibly strong. So I just smashed it and dug the glass out of the channel with a screwdriver. Not sophisticated but it worked.

 

I just broke the glass out of the frame.

 

Once I had the glass cleared out, I let it soak with some acetone to try to dissolve the remaining window glue. We'll see how it looks tomorrow. I'll have to order a new vent window pane. I'm not especially happy about that, but worse things could have happened.

 

Soaking with some acetone.

 

I spent the rest of the day doing more of the same stuff you've already seen. I removed the window from the fourth and final door, the driver's rear. Then I removed the U-channel and brackets and unfortunately broke the bolt that secures the bottom of one of the window brackets. Fortunately, thanks to my Lincoln project, nobody is better than I at removing broken bolts. 10 minutes later, crisis averted. With all the hardware out of the way, I scraped out the existing jute sound deadening, and gave the inside of the door a coat of paint to seal it up so the attenuator mats will stick to it. I successfully bent some U-channel to fit the window and installed the channel brackets on the ends of the U-channel. I think I need another pop rivet tool to secure them properly, but I used some weatherstrip adhesive to at least get them in place. I'll get the rivet tool and a new piece of glass before next weekend, which is the next opportunity I'll have to work on it. I think I'm in the home stretch on this project; hopefully I'll have it finished next week because the week after we're headed to Amelia with the Marmon.

 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Bleach]

I used to pull out vent glass by applying heat on the frame with a heat gun. I've even been lucky enough several times to pull them out when it was hot enough from sitting outside in the hot summer sun.

I never removed the frame off the cars on any of them. All I did was them use both hands and pull.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Bleach (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

My new vent window glass showed up earlier this week, so my first task today was to clean up the frame and try again to install the glass. I laid down a thick bead of adhesive and pressed the glass into the frame. And just to make sure it gets positioned correctly, I clamped it in place. Unfortunately, as I was leaving the shop a few hours later, I noticed that the clamp had slipped and the frame pulled away from the glass slightly along the bottom edge. I re-clamped it, but had the glue set too much to grab? I guess I'll find out tomorrow. I don't want to do this again, I'm tired of buying the same supplies two and three times for this project.

 

Clamped the frame and glass but unfortunately

one of the clamps slipped and the frame moved.

Hopefully the glue will set anyway.

 

I spent the rest of the day wrapping up the last door, adding the sound deadening and installing the U-channel and window glass. I guess I must be getting better at this, because this window fit beautifully, rolls up and down easily, and closes snugly. I still have to install the perimeter weather seal and the vent window, so hopefully I can get that done tomorrow and call this project finished. I'll call Joe and have him come back to reinstall the door panels after we get back from Amelia. I have a few other projects for him, including seat covers for a GTO and fresh upholstery for this big guy, which I picked up a few weeks ago:

 

 

 

[billorn]

That truck is awesome!!! Keeper?

[Matt Harwood]

Went to the shop and found that the vent window adhesive did indeed hold and the glass is correctly seated in the frame. That's good news. I reassembled the vent window in the door and it was still pretty snug with the new weather seals, but I could get it closed by helping it with my fingers on the edge of the glass. Unfortunately, when I used the crank to see if it would open, I broke two of the teeth in the regulator assembly and it no longer works. Guess I'll have to find another one. Melanie reminded me when I got home that I have a full set of spare doors in the storage room that I completely forgot about. Perhaps there's a vent window regulator in one of those doors. If not, I'll call Doug S. and get one. It makes sense to fix it now rather than to live with a broken one or try to take the door panels off again later. 

 

Vent window glass secured to the frame. Think I

used enough adhesive? Fortunately it was easy to

trim away with a razor blade and some acetone.

 

Window installed. Still pretty snug...

 

...snug enough that this happened. In truth, I think

it was already mangled. Note that it's out-of-round

and the protective cover over the gears is missing.

I don't think it was long for this world anyway.

 

  

I think clamping the glass to push it farther into the frame was a mistake.

It's almost too far and doesn't quite seat against the seals in the divider post.

It's not serious enough that I want to take it apart again, but it's probably 

going to whistle at speed.

 

Then I went to install the perimeter weatherstripping around the driver's side rear door. As with the other doors, I cleaned up the old adhesive and traces of dried rubber with a wire wheel. For some reason, the bottom of this door was really rusty, unlike all the others which are totally solid and still have original black paint clinging to them. Makes me wonder if maybe this door came from another car--why else would there be so much surface scale on it but none of the others? Meh. Instead of just installing the weatherstripping over the rust, I gave it a quick coat of gloss black sealing paint. It'll have to dry before I can start gluing the rubber in place, and that will probably be two weeks from now. It'll give me time to find another vent window gear, so no hurry...

 

Painted the bottom of this door to seal up the surface

rust. Only this door was rusty, and I don't know why.

 

16 hours ago, billorn said:

That truck is awesome!!! Keeper?

 

No, not a keeper. We'll have some fun with it, then sell it. We've got some service work to do (brakes, kingpins, wiring, upholstery) and some dressing up (decals and accessories) to add some value, then we'll enjoy it this spring. But if I'm adding a tow truck to the collection, it's going to be a Full Classic wrecker. This was just something cool that floated by at the right moment. Interested?

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[edinmass]

That tow truck is cool......

[Ken_P]

5 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

I gave it a quick coat of gloss black sealing paint.

Looking good Matt! 
 

What’s your sealing paint of choice for a project like this?

[Matt Harwood]

Returned from the Amelia Island show this morning and found a care package from my friend Doug Seybold:

 

 

Not only did he have the window regulator that I needed, but just on a lark I asked him for a replacement window crank escutcheon and a dome light lens, another Limited-only part. Et voila! I should have asked him for the dome light lens a decade ago when I first got the car--it's been bugging me since day one. And now the window/door/interior project can be wrapped up and I can get the car on the road for the spring. Thanks, Doug!

[38Buick 80C]

Doug is a good man!

[Matt Harwood]

Got back out in the shop today and wrapped up the weatherstripping project. The left rear door needed its perimeter seal, which went on without a hitch. I wish I could offer some good advice on how best to do this tedious and sticky job, but I can't. My technique was to squeeze out some adhesive on my little foam "brush" like toothpaste, then wipe it on the door and the rubber. Let cure for a few minutes, then stick it together. I don't know what would work better for spreading the glue, which starts to set up the moment it hits the air and the brush drags on it almost instantly. It's not smooth like paint. I worked with 8-10 inch sections at a time and was careful to press it into the corner of the door frame so it would fit right. My best advice would be to do it with the doors off the car because the hinge side was tight and tough to work in, but that's not always an option. Ultimately, this door "sounds" the best when you slam it--a nice, dull THUMP.

 

  

Finished the door seal on the left rear door. This was my best work yet and it fits well.
Even got the seam to snug up tight.

 

Then I installed the new vent window regulator from Doug S., which was easy. Bolted right into place and the window moved easily. The window closed properly and sat tight on the weather seals, so it must have been my regulator that was the problem, not the weather seals--apologies to Steele Rubber, their stuff was right.

 

Replacement regulator bolted right in...

 

  

...and worked perfectly.

 

So with all that done, I went around slamming doors. Both front doors still had a kind of "CLACK" sound when closing. There was a solid THUNK thanks to the sound deadening materials, but the CLACK still sounds cheap. I thought it was the window rattling in the tracks without the inner window molding in place, but it made the sound even when I had my hand on the glass. It's not the glass. Then I thought it was the rod between the door handle mechanism and the latch, and sure enough, holding that piece while I slammed the door eliminated the CLACK sound. OK. So I tried to insulate and attenuate that particular part.

 

It seems like this rod vibrates and makes a CLACK

sound when slamming the door.

 

So I tried insulating it with some attenuator mat.

 

Unfortunately, insulating the rod did nothing to stop the CLACK sound. Then I looked at the mechanism and saw that the rod had a little spring-loaded post at the latch end which was obviously designed to help reduce vibrations. Maybe the spring was getting tired, so I added a little C-clip under the post to help take up some of the slack. I also lubricated the mechanism while I was in there working. Result? No change. The CLACK is apparently just the sound that the door latch makes. It sounds cheap and my 1941 Cadillac 60S doesn't make that sound (none of them have, as a matter of fact) so I am guessing that even on the Limited, Buick used slightly cheaper latches than Cadillac. There's no other conclusion to draw. I'll just have to live with the CLACK sound. Meh.

 

A C-clip (arrow) and some lubricant didn't do anything

to reduce the CLACK sound.

 

With the real work done, I installed my new dome light lens. Perfection!

 

WooT!

 

The last step before I call Joe to put the interior back together is to make some new hardboard covers for the access holes in the doors to replace the originals, which are crumbling. I went to the craft store and picked up some thick, stiff cardboard that's about the same weight as the factory stuff. I'll cut them to fit tomorrow and screw them into place. THEN we'll be ready to put the door panels back on.

 

I'll make new hardboard panels to replace these

old ones that were falling apart.

 

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[95Cardinal]

Great progress, Matt! 

Excellent combination of patience & tenacity.

[JohnD1956]

4 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Maybe the spring was getting tired, so I added a little C-clip under the post to help take up some of the slack. I also lubricated the mechanism while I was in there working.

Maybe a 2nd C clip on the other end?  What lube did you use?  Perhaps some white grease on each connection would absorb the shocks making it clack?

 

[Matt Harwood]

Spent about an hour making new hardboard access panels to finish the doors. Easy enough, especially since each side is a mirror image of the other. A little challenging to get the screw holes located, but by running screws in from behind I was able to make indents on the hardboard. Judging from the multiple holes around each screw, it seems that they just made the panel then drilled the holes through the board and the door itself. The back seat was obviously original and there was only one set of holes, but the front seat area has been restored and there were two sets. Meh, they were close enough and held the boards securely. And since the new hardboard panels seemed kind of hollow, I threw a sheet of attenuator mat on each one--who knows what difference it will make, if any. I had the stuff left over, why not?

 

Right rear door with fresh hardboard panel.

 

  

All four doors received a bit of attenuator mat, just in case the

hardboard wanted to vibrate or act like a drum head.

 

And just for grins, here's a video so you can hear the sound of the doors closing. Definitely more solid-sounding than before, but hopefully you can hear the kind of loose CLACK sound when they close. I don't believe there's anything I can do about that, it's just the sound of the latches closing. Perhaps installing the door panels will make a little difference, but overall I'm pretty satisfied. I'm eager to take it for a drive (it's a blizzard today, so that won't happen) and see how different it sounds.

 

 

And remember, I'm still planning on spray-on sound deadener in the wheel housings and under the floor to help quiet things down even more. I may even try that as soon as next week if I can free up the big lift in the shop area.

[EmTee]

On 3/12/2022 at 4:30 PM, Matt Harwood said:

The CLACK is apparently just the sound that the door latch makes.

How is the rear latch setup different?  You say that one doesn't 'clack', right?  Maybe comparing the two will suggest something...

 

Edit: I just listened to your video.  Sounds like a bank vault!    I couldn't distinguish any difference between the front and rear doors.  They all sounded pretty much alike to me.  Are the door latches like those on my '38?  (The latch is similar to those used on house doors.)  If so, maybe the 'clack' is the bolt extending (bottoming-out) in the strike plate, or within the latch assembly itself.

Edited March 14, 2022 by EmTee (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

15 hours ago, EmTee said:

How is the rear latch setup different?  You say that one doesn't 'clack', right?  Maybe comparing the two will suggest something...

 

Edit: I just listened to your video.  Sounds like a bank vault!    I couldn't distinguish any difference between the front and rear doors.  They all sounded pretty much alike to me.  Are the door latches like those on my '38?  (The latch is similar to those used on house doors.)  If so, maybe the 'clack' is the bolt extending (bottoming-out) in the strike plate, or within the latch assembly itself.

 

They actually all clack about the same, although the rear doors are a bit different--not better, just different. The sound on the video isn't quite what you hear in person, either. I'm not going to sweat it; I'm convinced that it's just how the latches sound. I think it's a combination of the latch bolt snapping into position and the spring-loaded striker plate springing up as it latches. I don't know why the 1940 Limited and 1941 Cadillac make such a nice kerTHUNK sound, but I've done all that can be done to improve this car. All four doors definitely close and sound better than before. I'm eager to drive it to see if it sounds any better from the driver's seat. It's warming up so maybe later this week we'll take a spin.

[Matt Harwood]

And we're done with the interior insulation project. Joe and Dale from Interior Motive came over and reinstalled my door panels for me and did a nice job. For the most part, everything went off without a hitch, although sadly we lost another escutcheon plate. That plastic just wasn't made to last 81 years. Fortunately, I had a non-matching escutcheon from a different model and we used that on the driver's side where it won't be as noticeable. Doors close nicely and sound far more solid than they did before and the passenger's front door is notably heavier than it was--I think I went a little overboard there. But so far I'm pleased with the results. It's raining now and it is supposed to snow this weekend so I may or may not get a drive sometime soon to evaluate the results. It can only be an improvement, right?

 

     

All four door panels reinstalled and tight, Should have no issues in the future.

 

Some of the screws on the window fuzzies are visible,

so I'll have to touch those up with some flat black paint.

 

One more escutcheon broke, so we used a spare I

had from a different series. It'll be good enough

until I can source a correct one from Doug S.

(unless the one I got was the only one he had).

 

My plan this weekend is to put it in the air, take off the wheels, and spray all four wheel wells with the Spectrum liquid sound deadener. It takes three coats to build up a sufficient thickness (3-5mm), so it'll probably take both days. If I have time and enough extra material, I plan to undercoat the floors with the stuff as well, both for sound and for protection. Right now my floors are naked with some surface rust, so I feel better about sealing them up. This is a car we drive through all kinds of weather and the December/January when I drove it every day two winters ago probably didn't do it any favors. We'll see how it looks under there when I put it on the lift...

 

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

Prepared for a long, dirty, awful day of work with the Spectrum spray-on sound deadener and instead was rewarded with an easy job with no glitches. Nice! The hardest part was putting the car in the air and pulling the wheels and tires. I prepped the work area with plastic sheeting on the ground and moved all the other cars out of the area or covered them up to prevent any overspray from getting on them. I fired the Buick up for the first time since I did all this work and the result was a notably quieter driver's compartment, less engine noise at idle, and a driver's door that sounds A LOT different from the inside. That made me happy.

 

  

Pulled the car onto some plastic, put it in the air, and removed the wheels and tires.

 

Once it was in the air and the tires were out of the way, I hosed down the inner fender wells with a pretty liberal application of brake cleaner and let it dry for 15 minutes. There's some kind of tar-based undercoating on the inner panels of the fenders, but it is obviously not terribly effective. Fortunately, it's well-adhered to the sheetmetal and will be a good foundation for the Spectrum. There's no rust, which is a little surprising after I drove it in the salt for a few weeks two winters ago, and everything was in good condition aside from being a little grungy. I think the grunge protected it.

 

Inner fender after hosing it down with brake cleaner.
Note the trash bag I used to mask the front suspension.

 

I opened up the first gallon of Spectrum, mixed it with my drill, and filled the spray gun, which is basically just an undercoating gun. After playing with the air pressure a bit (it seems to like about 80 PSI) I got a nice even first coat of Spectrum. I coated the flat panels and insides of the fenders and got good coverage on anything that I thought might resonate. The car has a hollow "booming" sound over certain bumps which I have always assumed were these big flat metal panels resonating and I really hope this solves it. I took some video of me rapping my knuckles on the inner fenders before I applied the Spectrum and I'll take another after I have all three coats--the difference should be significant.

 

  

First coat of Spectrum on the inner fender

sheetmetal. It's blue when it's wet but dries

black so it should look great behind the tires.

 

It took about 1.5 spray gun cups to coat each front fender area and about 1 cup for each of the rear wheel wells. I should be able to get three coats of the stuff from the two gallons I have, but I'll order another two gallons for the undercarriage and floors. It needs a total of about 3mm thickness for maximum effect. The first coat is a bit thinner to act as a primer so subsequent coats will stick. Fortunately, it's really good at sticking to itself, so the next two coats can be much heavier. The downside is that it takes about 12 hours to dry between coats, so I may have to tie up the work area in the shop for an extra day to spray the third coat or I do it first thing tomorrow morning and go back in the evening for the final coat. That limo takes up a lot of room.

 

    

Right front fenderwell area.

 

    

Rear fenderwells, including the splash shields behind the wheels.
There was already a fairly heavy layer of undercoating on the inner fenders,

which I believe was factory-applied to keep the rear compartment  quiet.

Note that even without masking it was easy to get a clean line without

overspray all over the frame.

 

And as long as I was in there, I decided to paint the brake drums. I degreased them with more brake cleaner and used high-heat gloss black on the fronts, then ran out of paint. I'll pick up more tomorrow and paint the rears. 

 

  

Painted the front brake drums.

 

  

Rears degreased and ready for paint.

 

Ultimately, the spraying part itself was incredibly easy. There was virtually no overspray, no drips, no mess, and the nice thing is that all the equipment can be cleaned with soap and water. I did quite a bit of masking around the fender edges but it was unnecessary and even the plastic on the floor had zero drips. I was very pleased with the result. The next two coats should be easy now that I have the hang of it. Since my car isn't a show car and is our primary driver, I don't mind this kind of modification as it should make the driving part more pleasant for everyone. It isn't appropriate for every old car (it won't help a car with wood floors, for example) but if you're going to undercoat your car to protect the metal, you may as well use something like this to help control noise and heat.

 

I'll keep you posted on how it works.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

First coat cured overnight so I went in early hoping to get two more coats done. I rapped my knuckles on the front fender and the sound was nice and muted. THUMP. It's interesting that when it's wet, it does almost nothing, but once it dries, it makes a significant difference. The manufacturer says that it gets more effective as it cures over the period of 48 hours and reaches peak efficiency after about 10 days. It will be curious to see how well it works once it's fully cured.

 

First coat dried black. Should be invisible behind

the tire in the wheel well.

 

Anyway, I did some reading last night and apparently Spectrum doesn't need a full 12 hours to dry between coats--it can be re-coated after it turns from blue to black. Well OK then. I sprayed on a very heavy second coat without any issues then left it to set up and went to lunch with Melanie. When I returned from lunch it was still a little tacky so I grabbed a couple of space heaters from the offices and aimed them into the wheel wells to speed things up a bit. While it was baking I decided to buff my hubcaps, which were looking a little dull. I pulled out the buffer and gave them a quick once over with the white rouge and a loose wheel--nothing too aggressive since they're chrome plated, not stainless, and I didn't want to remove any plating. It brought up some shine, although some of the deeper scratches obviously weren't affected. They cleaned up well enough and I'll hide the two worst ones under the rear fender skirts.

 

Representative of the hubcaps--a little beat up

and scratched but not dented or damaged.

 

Hubcaps shined up reasonably well.

 

The polishing bought me enough time that the second coat finished drying and everything was black. I killed a little more time by spraying a medium coat on the backs of the fender skirts and on the backs of the rear fenders behind the splash shields closest to the back of the car. Then I laid down a relatively heavy third coat everywhere else and called it done. I used almost all two gallons, with maybe enough left to do a second coat on the fender skirts and fenders. I'll probably save that for when I put it on the lift and spray the floors.

 

Last step, I put the tires back on after rotating their positions and put the car back on the ground. It'll cure overnight and be ready to move tomorrow. I have some touch-up on the wheels that I'd like to do, it's just black paint so that's easy. I also want to touch up the lettering on the hubcaps. 

 

Next weekend I'm headed to Canada to pick up some Lincoln K parts, including a spare engine, so it may be two weeks before I get to the next step. But that won't affect my ability to drive the car, I can do the underside anytime without taking it off the road. It's ready to go and I'm eager to see how big an improvement I've made.

 

[Matt Harwood]

Weather was good this afternoon so after work I took a quick run around the block to see how the sound insulation experiment went.

 

And, well, the results are mixed. Windows up, the outside noises are notably muted, the windows don't rattle, and the doors sound awesome from inside when you slam them. However, engine noise is far more prominent coming through the firewall, which, obviously, wasn't insulated. Most of it seems to be leaking in around the steering column, even though I have a new Steele Rubber column cover. I may try to put some additional insulation in there, although I'm not quite sure which material would be best suited to that task. I'll do some more reading.

 

Windows open, it's about the same as it was before. I expected that and it's OK simply because that's how we drive it 90% of the time. I drove over plenty of rough pavement and it seemed that the hollow "booming" sound is greatly diminished and it does feel more robust. The heavy CLUNK that I believe was the passenger's front door moving in its frame is gone. That's a definite plus.

 

So I'm not exactly overwhelmed by the improvement, especially given the cost and effort, but that may only be because I'm hearing new sounds in place of the old ones that are now muted. Do I continue with the undercarriage? I think so and I may try to reach up the firewall somewhat with the liquid Spectrum, maybe using a small roller. I'm also going to see if I can stuff something around the steering column to help with that leak, which was by far the most prominent source of noise. 

 

I'll have to wait for a hotter day to see if temperatures are more moderate in the driver's seat--that would be nice.

And, of course, I should replace the water pump and readjust the valves because I can hear them loud and clear now. 

[usnavystgc]

19 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

well, the results are mixed

This is what I've heard from many people who have installed sound deadening on/in their vehicles.  The one area you miss gets amplified because the others are no longer the issue.  

[JohnD1956]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

And, well, the results are mixed.

I am sorry to hear this report Matt.  A lot of time,  effort, and $$$. I hope the added efforts help out. 

[EmTee]

Maybe use your "Chassis Ears" to hunt for the remaining worst offenders?

[Matt Harwood]

Finished the last remnants of this project save for the undercoating, which I'm not really sure I'll be doing at this point. Priority one was getting the opening around the steering column sealed up to kill that source of noise. On the interior, I installed my new steering column base plate and screwed it into place. That alone probably helped quite a bit, but there was still a bit of a gap around it and a better seal would only help. I went to Lowe's and picked up some black expanding foam from the garden department (it's for sealing waterfalls) and used that to seal the opening from the engine side of the firewall. The stuff is seriously sticky and gets all over the place. Fortunately, you just let it cure and scrape it off--don't bother chasing it while it's wet, you'll only make a bigger mess. 

 

  

New column base plate installed.

 

Black expanding foam on the engine side

seals it up. I may trim it a bit to make it look

better, but it's all but invisible from the top.

 

While the foam was setting up, I finished off the hubcaps. I polished them a few weeks ago, which removed some of the paint as well, so I dabbed in some fresh gloss black paint. There's a trick for getting recessed areas like this looking crisp, and it isn't having a very steady hand. I smeared some paint in each of the recessed areas, let it dry for a few minutes, then used a rag soaked in lacquer thinner and a plastic squeegee to remove paint from the flat surfaces. Use a thin rag with no nap (no microfiber) and keep it VERY tight against the squeegee blade. Then just wipe it over the lettering and voila! Crisp, perfect lettering.

 

  

Use a squeegee wrapped in a thinner-soaked rag to wipe

off the excess paint and get a crisp result.

 

A little polish and the hubcaps were ready to reinstall.

 

I reinstalled the fender skirts and secured them, noting that my splash guards are really coming apart. There are new ones available from Steele Rubber, but they're like $700/pair. Hard to justify right now when I'm burning cash at a record-setting pace in the Lincoln department. Maybe next year.

 

Once it was all back together, I fired it up and as expected, it is quieter inside now. The noises coming through the steering column opening are greatly diminished, even with the windows closed. Good enough. I didn't quite have the fortitude to take it for a drive but running the engine revealed no extraneous noises coming through any specific location. I can still hear the engine clearly, of course, but it's muted. There's only so much sound insulation offered by the factory-style jute firewall pad. That will be the source of most of the noise in the car. I can live with that, although a test drive will confirm my results.

 

The Buick is ready for the summer now--we have some drives ahead of us, not the least of which is a road trip to Chicago for the BCA national meet in June. That should be a good drive. We're also planning a trip to the Gilmore Museum campus via Auburn in a few weeks. Lots of opportunities to let the big Buick stretch its legs.

 

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)