Economic cost (e.g., decrease in actual value of cars) due to lack of storage space

[mrcvs]

Obviously, this is an immeasurable, and abstract, value, but it has to be "real". I was talking to a friend today and he mentioned he could have bought a Model T at a reasonable price a few months ago, but refrained from doing so, as he had nowhere to store the car. He stated, in an ideal world, he would have a 50 x 100 ft barn to store cars. Likewise, I refrained from purchasing a car at auction last month for lack of where to put it. I know a limited amount of folks, and if this is the case, multiply times numerous other folks in the same predicament, it has to lead to a suppression in value, in prices realized. Of course, an abstract concept, but it has to lead to a decrease to some degree, perhaps 20 or 25%, vs an 'ideal' world where all folks interested in antique vehicles have no limitations on storage capacity. Comments?

 

Call it what you will, but urban sprawl, too much development, overpopulation (excess population, and not necessarily saying I'm not one of the excess), leading to (too) small property size, zoning restrictions, home owner associations and restrictions, etc, etc, all these things which were not problematic until the last several decades, have to cause downward pressure on antique car prices and values.

[1912Staver]

For many of us storage is a big problem. And the cost of erecting even simple storage buildings can be considerable. Yet one more obstacle to the middle class and lower old car person.

 And yes , I think the situation probably has an effect on old car value. Particularly at the parts car / project car level.  One more reason to seek out a rural lifestyle.

 

Greg in Canada

[John_S_in_Penna]

25 minutes ago, mrcvs said:

...urban sprawl, too much development... have to cause downward pressure on antique car prices and values.

 

I agree up to a point, Mr. CVS.  Those high-cost urban areas

probably would have a lessened demand for antique cars.

Demand certainly could be more if all the cities' good-paying jobs

were accompanied by lots of affordable places to put the old cars.

 

However, it's certainly not an effect across the entire antique-car market.

In south-central Pennsylvania, the area of A.A.C.A. headquarters,

there is plenty of open land, car storage is affordable, and the

hobby has blossomed.  Other parts of the country could say the same.

 

People in cities often have summer homes in the country.

Instead of buying a whole house, why not rent a country barn

to store your cars, and go out on sunny week-ends to enjoy them?

[John_S_in_Penna]

17 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

One more reason to seek out a rural lifestyle.

 

Good point, Greg.  And driving the old cars on 

miles of scenic back roads is probably more fun, too!

 

Here's a nice example of what you can see on

the country roads of northern Pennsylvania:

 

[mrcvs]

Really? Lots of open land in southeast Pennsylvania (at affordable prices)? That's essentially where I live and that's not the case. I would prefer to live much more rurally, but something annoying called a job (LOL) prevents me from doing so!

 

I have two old cars, one in my garage less than a mile away, that I rent. Not having the car on my property, I have found, means I have done little with it. Having to drive over to get it, work on it, etc Is more inconvenient than one might think. Have to haul tools, not having the right tool, having to have limited access. Works for some, not so much myself. I regard it simply as dry storage until I find a better property someday.

[mrcvs]

Rural vs urban. Yes, more country roads to drive, probably more urban and suburban dwellers not so interested in antique autos. In my development, driving my old cars around does attract attention, but beyond that no one else here shows any interest in such things.

[SC38dls]

How about this barn. In the Kentucky blue grass. 

 

 

[auburnseeker]

That would be great.  I wish I could find a barn like that.  As it is,  I had to settle for a 28 by 50 Pretty much clear span garage with 7 acres (on a hill) to build another building.  I came up with a simple clear span 60 by 72 foot garage ? Barn with a 16 foot ceiling. 

Even though I'm pretty much in the woods,  the Planning board gave me some grief about the size and it's affect on the woods.   and water run off that affects the lake a few miles away on the other side of a mountain.  You know all the stuff that makes them feel important.  

Now I have the permits, paid all the fees.  Spent $12,000 leveling what looked like a site with 4 foot of grade  (41 loads of fill later)  Another $1300 this spring to tune it up and line the banks with crushed rock to prevent washing, then another $1200 to dig the footings and frost wall, though I helped and even dug part of one wall as my excavator was more practical to use than their equipment.  

I cut all the trees, cut them to length stacked the logs and chipped all the brush.  

Right now we are at:

$1000 permits

$14,500 excavating and site prep

$2300 Stamped engineered plans

so

$17,800 and I haven't bought a stick of wood or put any concrete in the ground. 

Kind of gives you an idea of how it can all add up fast.  I will say the excavating fees are very low as the guys that I hired are very cheap but do good work and the most honest guys you will ever meet.  They were Highly recommended.  I have never met anyone that had anything but praise for them and their business practices so I imagine you could tack alot more on for a normal excavator.  For example they were selling me 20 yards of fill delivered for 100.00 a generous load.  It's really nice sand with a little clay so it packs and almost no rocks or even stones.   They also trucked out all the stumps and logs including all the pulp wood I was having trouble getting rid of. 

I have a price of 17,000 and change for the trusses.  

I'm expecting to have atleast 100,000 in it before I put a floor or insulation in it.  That's using board and batton siding that I did start getting delivered so the wife can pre stain it all. 

I could have gone with a cheap tin pole barn but it wouldn't match anything up here and as they say,  you get what you pay for.  I can make it fancy once it's up. 

So yes more space and having to spend less on a building would allow me to put a whole lot more cars in it.  

I'm just hoping the tax man doesn't bang me too hard when I'm all done as well. 

[auburnseeker]

I will add one thing though as well.  With the larger more rural property you need more storage space for the property management equipment.  I now have a Good sized tractor with bucket and various attachments, a mini excavator, A  Commercial size chipper, a walk behind tractor for field mowing so those will be hogging up space in the garage as well.  I figure 50 percent cars and the other 50 percent equipment.  I'm looking at getting a boom man lift to work on the new barn, and a dump trailer.  I also ended up with a 24 foot enclosed trailer that I needed to move my business and store my tools in until the shop is built.  

I know I could leave the equipment outside but in the northeast everything pretty much just biodegrades right before your eyes if you do.  Not to mention all the smaller tools including Chainsaws, leaf blowers, trimmers, etc. 

[Rusty_OToole]

You can buy or rent storage space. All it costs is money. So, lack of money is the real issue. Lack of money for storage, to buy cars, for that matter lack of money to pay restoration and repair costs, insurance etc.

 

Now you have me wondering how so many people have the thousands of dollars to fritter away on old cars. We really are lucky, we really are in the top 1% of all the people who ever lived.

[John_S_in_Penna]

10 hours ago, mrcvs said:

Really? Lots of open land in southeast Pennsylvania (at affordable prices)?

 

I can't speak for southeastern Penna., but I know it's more built-up.

South-CENTRAL and other parts of the state are entirely different.

 

Where I used to work, if I took the alternate route, I could sometimes

drive  FIFTEEN MILES on my route to work and not see a car coming

the other direction.  Most often, there would be 2 or 3 other cars in 15 miles.

 

Ah, to experience other parts of the country and see their benefits!

[39BuickEight]

It's always a choice.  Either you prioritize being able to store a car or not.  You can choose to live somewhere that makes it difficult, whether that means unable to build or find rental space, or what have you, or not.  There is nothing wrong with putting your dwelling status ahead of your ability to collect cars. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by 39BuickEight (see edit history)

[mercer09]

My brother and I have had this discussion many times-bottom line

 

if we were to do it over again, we would have delved into antique motorcycles............

 

you figure out the advantages!

[auburnseeker]

7 minutes ago, mercer09 said:

My brother and I have had this discussion many times-bottom line

 

if we were to do it over again, we would have delved into antique motorcycles............

 

you figure out the advantages!

I often think the same thing.  I should have just gone the motorcycle route.  A 28 by 50 garage will hold alot of bikes. 

[mercer09]

not only that-you can drag one into your living room or basement and work on it, while watching your favorite tv show! 

 

try dragging a car into the house........................

 

and the values of the bikes-ouch!

[Pilgrim65]

Lucky you don't live Uk , where the majority of folks have only on road parking or none at all , some local apartment blocks have 6 parking bays for 30 flats and in town centres only pay municipal or private parking , little chance for classic cars , but you see newish  mercs , Ferrari and Maserati parked in bays covered and never moved. 

I only have 2 parking spaces in front of my home , so indulge my hobby at our holiday home in Cyprus , where I have drive space and two car ports , garages are rare.

[JACK M]

Its a cart before the horse thing.

I used to sell boats and with those that live month to month these days storage is the last thing on a buyers mind.

Its that instant gratification thing.

I tried to teach my kids that there should be an order to things.

Get a nice place to live,

Step up to that and a place for storage,

Then get the toys.

HOWEVER....One daughter walked out of her office the other day on a Friday and her car wouldn't start.

She called me for a tow and I couldn't do it until Monday.

When I showed up at her work on Monday she had a new car in the parking lot.

A free tow and $200 bucks got her original car running but it sits parked now.

Go figure !!     Its that instant gratification thing.  Costs a BUNCH !!

[SC38dls]

Just so you know that big white barn holds about 20-25 horses. But a good number of them are in the 7 figure pice tag. It would take a lot to change it into a car garage. 

[1912Staver]

As Rusty OTool said above it always comes down to $.  Either you have substantial disposable buying power and can go in whatever direction you choose with regards to lifestyle, location and hobbies, or you are like the majority of us and are constantly juggling to make ends meet and still have some quality of life. An old iron addiction can be a real complication. And in these ever more stressful times more than a few have had to give up old cars in favor of Wizzers, scooters, or pedal cars. With the odd bit of petrolina thrown in I hope. 

 And for many of us it isn't getting any better.  Costs in almost every sector of life continue to go up faster than middle class  income, and that leads to a slow but relentless erosion of hobby money.  The degree of loss will vary , some times substantially , depending on location and personal situation. But the trend is felt to one degree or another by roughly 75 % of Western Economy residents.  

 The effect of storage on old car costs is just one part of a very complicated equation.  And the equation itself is almost infinitely variable.

 

Greg in Canada

[mercer09]

Just so you know that big white barn holds about 20-25 horses. But a good number of them are in the 7 figure pice tag. It would take a lot to change it into a car garage. 

 

just line it with Ferrari or Mercers and you will be fine..........................

[mrcvs]

Yes, of course it all boils down to money and priorities. In my friend's case, he already has several tractors and cars. It's just that he doesn't have room for one more. In my case, my wife wants the house in a development, so not much room for anything. Not my ideal choice, but that's what she wants. Learned from how she was raised--everthing had to be fancy and new as her parents haven't the foggiest idea how to fix anything, which is sad, when you think about it.

 

BUT, my friend not buying that Model T, and the seller maybe having to lower his price, myself not raising my bidding card for yet a higher bid...although not quantifiable, has to be a real phenomenon. E.g., a lowered inherent value due to storage problems.

 

Saw the movie Salem's Lot last night. I think the car in it is a 1959 Cadillac. They just don't make cars like that anymore!

[padgett]

When moved here wife wanted a development with sidewalks and good schools nearby. Thutty yar later am alone in the same house but now have 2k ft2 of garage space (not easy but possible if forego a swimming pool). However in the same period the population of metro-Orlando has tripled so  try to run all errands before noon. And so it goes.

[auburnseeker]

We are a little closer to atleast concrete on my job.  Footings are all dug,  I had alot of hand tuning to do with a shovel after the masons incorrectly placed the lines to dig.  

Lots of taters as well. 

[kgreen]

An urban lifestyle and an old iron addiction do not go hand in hand.  When you see an early 20th century home you see no garage or a separate outbuilding big enough to hold the carriage or a car.  When you see mid century homes you see a one car garage or a carport.  When you see 80's homes and newer all you see is garage and something that might be a house behind the garage.  It seems to me that there is an increasing trend for Americans to have more storage space for a nonessential car.  

[llskis]

One must also remember the cost of "Real Estate Tax" when one has a storage facility. In Illinois this tax is going up drastically. Also when your storage facility has no one living there the rate is higher then if it is attached to your house. (At least in Illinois) It is starting to become a very expensive hobby! Larry

[46 woodie]

I sold one of my Model A's because of of storage space. I had a great place and was fairly reasonable, but every time I wanted to use the car it was a chore. For one, the storage place owner had to move several other cars to get mine out. The other issue was that I just couldn't decide to go for a cruise, I had to call the owner etc. I finally realized that after not driving the car for some time that it just wasn't worth the hassle. On the other hand, I know of a gentleman that has been renting a storage spot for over 22 years at $100 a month. That's over $26,000 to store a car thats worth about $10,000. Sometimes it just does not make economic sense.

[auburnseeker]

In many cases they make as much sense as a boat.  Most people rarely use their boat,  pay for seasonal docking which easily approaches or exceeds $2000  a season in many areas then many people have the marina store it in the winter another 500 around here plus launch and pull out fees as well as tax/permit to use the lake it's on then you actually get to the maintenance part.  The only difference is the depreciation curve on old cars is much less harsh than watercraft. 

Few hobbies make good economic sense.    They help relieve stress though and preserve sanity which in today's world can be , Priceless. 

[60FlatTop]

Economic sense kind of took a back seat when I filled the garage with project cars and left my new truck parked in the driveway.

 

I do have a storage location available when needed. A 10 X 20 units costs $110 per month. I have used 1 to 3 units on a regular basis since 2005. I will juggle things around according to what I am doing. Sometimes they have just been full of parts.

 

If I had a car that wasn't worth $100 a month toward storage I would sell it for a couple thousand bucks and get something better.     < Read that twice.

 

57 minutes ago, auburnseeker said:

They help relieve stress though and preserve sanity which in today's world can be , Priceless.

That advice is priceless. My life gets cluttered with so much pragmatic BS I NEED the cars to prove to myself that I haven't lost it.

 

After my Grandmother died my Grandfather got pretty nutty, beyond the usual (he was actually a Step-Grandfather). One time I asked him "Just how crazy are you going to get before you recognize it?" I will never forget the great big smile he had at that moment. I hope I can smile like that someday.

 

Bernie

[Ed Luddy]

Cost of storage keeps me from buying too many more cars for certain. Being in Canada (S-W Ontario) I want indoor storage for at least the winter. Last year my storage bill for the season was over my budget, so I sold a few cars and my boat. But I just bought a few more this summer, including this Lime monster that will require a big parking spot. 

 

Just can't get rid of the bug!!

[1912Staver]

On ‎2017‎-‎09‎-‎02 at 6:33 AM, auburnseeker said:

In many cases they make as much sense as a boat.  Most people rarely use their boat,  pay for seasonal docking which easily approaches or exceeds $2000  a season in many areas then many people have the marina store it in the winter another 500 around here plus launch and pull out fees as well as tax/permit to use the lake it's on then you actually get to the maintenance part.  The only difference is the depreciation curve on old cars is much less harsh than watercraft. 

Few hobbies make good economic sense.    They help relieve stress though and preserve sanity which in today's world can be , Priceless. 

I agree with you 100% about the "investment" potential of hobby cars. The odd person might see a bit of a profit from time to time but they are the exception. 

 The biggest challenge for many these days is keeping costs down to the point where stress is reduced and sanity is preserved. For a number of us these days the opposite is often the case, and our continued participation is threatened. 

 No matter how devoted a person is as an old car guy the cost elevator combined with eroding disposable $ is a ticking time bomb.

 

Greg in Canada

[auburnseeker]

42 minutes ago, Dave Fields said:

How many cars are being destroyed in the Houston area right now?

 

 

I always wonder this when we keep hearing about the surplus of old cars coming on the market,  then you think of the number of cars we lose in natural disasters from Katrina, Sandy, now the one in TX, not to mention of the number lost in Forest fires last summer, as well as even the collector car dealer that burnt last month losing 150 cars right there.  

Then think of the number being exported as well. 

I would like to know the actual real effect these occurrences are having on the Market of old cars.   

[alsancle]

40 minutes ago, auburnseeker said:

Then think of the number being exported as well.  

 

This is the one I'm interested in.  I know the Chinese are buying at least some high end cars.  It would be interesting if they really started buying, much like the Japanese did in the 80s which really pushed up the high end of the market.   Many of those cars have come back, but not all.

[JV Puleo]

I was under the impression that the Chinese weren't allowed to buy any "used" car that was less then 100 years old. I'm not certain where I read that but obviously I was wrong or perhaps, as in many cases, those that have the wherewithal can get the rules bent.

 

My other lifelong collecting interest is 17th to early 19th century arms, mostly British. A huge amount of this material is here in the US, imported between the 40s and the 70s when the prices here were much higher than in Britain. Much of that has gone back because the prices have shifted the other way. But, collecting has it's fads and fancies. Things that are popular in one area are ignored elsewhere. Because my interests do not coincide with the majority of British collectors,  I often buy things in England. I also have friends in England that buy almost exclusively in the US. I was having coffee with one of the better known British dealers a few years ago and asked him how he felt about the business (since in this area, as in cars, there is a certain amount of backlash directed at those who sell out of the country). He replied "that its all one big market now".

 

I know of one well-known antique arms dealer who specializes in soaking newly affluent Chinese and other Pacific Rim customers with overpriced (and often misidentified or entirely fake) items with fake inscriptions... possession of wealth does not impart knowledge, aside from the technique of making the money. I have to wonder what the reaction will be when the market declines (which it inevitably will) and these buyers try to liquidate their collections. It will be time for a very rude awakening.

[John_S_in_Penna]

3 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

I know of one well-known antique arms dealer who specializes in soaking newly affluent Chinese and other Pacific Rim customers with overpriced (and often misidentified or entirely fake) items with fake inscriptions... 

 

That's a criminal committing fraud.  I hope you don't

know him TOO closely, JV, because justice will catch up to him!

 

As it's time to write another check for car-storage rent,

I appreciate the fact that I can find reasonably priced garage space.

But, let's face it, hobbies work better in some areas than in others:

 

Rural Pennsylvania is not a good place for opera and art museums.

Snowmobile fans don't do so well in Georgia.

Horse lovers and ranchers don't have much room to ride in Los Angeles.

But every area has its advantages, and we can all appreciate what we have.

Edited September 4, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I ought to have said "I know of" rather than "I know". We have some mutual acquaintances, but none of my colleagues would have anything to do with such practices. In fact, we make every effort to them point out. The material is advertised on the internet with lots of photos so it really isn't difficult for someone who knows the subject to see what is going on.  I also have limited sympathy for the gullible. Presumably, if one is intelligent enough to make a lot of money, one ought to be intelligent enough to get some other professional opinions before buying an expensive item or at least seek out someone who is known to be knowledgeable. I've helped dozens of new collectors in that manner. It's a case of "fool me once, shame on you", "fool me twice, shame on me." People who know what is going on are readily available and would be happy to assist, but they would have to be asked. There is no overarching organization that passes on authenticity... if you are a neophyte you need to depend on someone who knows the subject.

 

It isn't much different from some of the idiotic car descriptions we see except in this case, they occasionally hook a victim.

[nick8086]

I think the price will go down. Do to lack of buyers not storage ??

 

It will show up in any business.. Read about golf.. 300 new built in 2000.. Now less than 45..

 

http://journalstar.com/special-section/new-directions/landscapes-unlimited-survives-decline-in-new-golf-course-construction/article_53db688e-8f00-520f-9375-baaadb5ad2bc.html

 

[mrcvs]

On Saturday, September 02, 2017 at 9:09 AM, 46 woodie said:

I sold one of my Model A's because of of storage space. I had a great place and was fairly reasonable, but every time I wanted to use the car it was a chore. For one, the storage place owner had to move several other cars to get mine out. The other issue was that I just couldn't decide to go for a cruise, I had to call the owner etc. I finally realized that after not driving the car for some time that it just wasn't worth the hassle. On the other hand, I know of a gentleman that has been renting a storage spot for over 22 years at $100 a month. That's over $26,000 to store a car thats worth about $10,000. Sometimes it just does not make economic sense.

This is the bind I am in! I have contemplated selling my Model A just because of this! Have to stumble over everything just to get it out...temporary storage has turned into long-term, with a monthly rent. Just this weekend my wife said she found a better place...  But, no barn, a typical McMansion (shouldn't those be illegal?), a huge monthly payment. Admittedly, I liked the small farm over there at the bottom of the hill with the bank barn a whole lot more.

[mrcvs]

14 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

 

 

I always wonder this when we keep hearing about the surplus of old cars coming on the market,  then you think of the number of cars we lose in natural disasters from Katrina, Sandy, now the one in TX, not to mention of the number lost in Forest fires last summer, as well as even the collector car dealer that burnt last month losing 150 cars right there.  

Then think of the number being exported as well. 

I would like to know the actual real effect these occurrences are having on the Market of old cars.   

I just mentioned this to someone the other day. I would not be in the market for a late model used car in the next several months. These have a good chance of having originated in the Houston area.

[padgett]

Unfortunately it is the children and grandchildren who usually spend what the prior generation (that did not have time for toys) made. Is a reason alcohol is abundant in the sky boxes.

[Ed Luddy]

There is always a huge supply of old cars to buy. Just realizing that 1977 cars are now 40 years old! Supply of money  and a storage place to keep 'em isn't quite up to desire to buy 'em