Are we pricing our old cars and hobby out of existence?

[Dynaflash8]

You know, I've been thinking of buying one more old car, or at least one more, before the rocking chair becomes a habit.  For a year now, I've looked at ads and talked to a few sellers too.  When I started out in 1959 you could buy a good old car for $75.  Of course, $75 was a lot of money then when I was making $3175 a  year.  For $100 you could get a good running old car, for $300 a cream puff and for $800 a car of prize-winning original quality.  Many young men, married with a child, could possibly make $31,750 these days.  Extrapolate that and you come to $1,000, $3,000 and $8000 today for cars of the above quality, right?  Well, friends, that "ain't" gonna happen.  It's more like $20,000, $30,000 and $40,000 up these days.  Do we wonder why we're not attracting more young men?  Yeah, cellphone, computers, more college grads (many out of work when they graduate) that people speak about.  But, I think think it all comes down to the almighty dollar.  Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it.  I'll be surprised if I do get to buy that one more car before the rocking chair gets me.  Yes, I can afford it, but cars are like boats I've found, except they're not in the water.  You know the old saying, "a boat is a hole in the water to throw money into."  Some of us geezers could think about giving a young, hardworking married 20 or 30-something with two kids, a dog and a house payment a leg up.  As for me, I have to save money for the possibility of an $8000 a month old age home  Hmm, I wonder what they used to cost.

 

 

[edinmass]

With the exception of the top 1/10 of one percent of the cars, the hobby is more affordable now than it was for the past thirty years. I expect things to stay static, with only the top stuff doing well......I.E. if it's over 500k.

[Rusty_OToole]

And what year were the old cars? In 1959 that would be 1939 or older, the same age of car today would be 1997 and older. I dare say you can buy cars from the 90s, 80s, and even the 70s for $1000 - $8000.

 

I'm afraid the day of the $2000 Duesenberg is long gone, and so is the $5000 Mercedes gull wing. But there are some cool cars from the 70s and 80s that are still affordable.

[1912Staver]

I am hard pressed to think of much from the 80's that I would consider owning. Esp. built in North America. Lotus Esprit ? Toyota Supra , Miata, all possibilities but not at todays prices. OK early Miata's are cheap enough . I actually have one but it's a heavily modified track day car, not really what we are talking about.

My interest in North American built cars hits a pretty firm wall at about 1970-71.  My newest collector interest car is a 1974 TVR 2500, and once again well outside the collector mainstream. And they are unfortunately not very affordable anymore either.

I like lots of cars from the 1950's and 60's and all the way back to brass era. But few are at the cheap end of $30,000.00 or so for a decent one.

 

Greg in Canada

[Guest]

Dynaflash8, I suppose the pricing is all relative to the time period. Our dollar has simply devalued over the years so more gets you less. My father related a story, when he rolled out of the navy after WWII, there was a Duesenberg for sale at the Shell service station down the block. It was just old enough to be a big old tub at that point. $600 was the asking price and it sat there for a long, long time.

[cxgvd]

Many cars are languishing in garages.  I recall an ad posted on these forums a few months ago for a '28 Dodge Brothers, lovely looking, nice colours, hadn't run in a short while $6500.  I bought a nice looking '39 Buick Century sedan last fall, hard to start, $6500. USD.  Needed ignition wires and a coil to get it going.  I have a pre '16 Buick which has been both a good car and investment. Not likely I'll ever drive a Ferrari.  Gary

[billorn]

Things are different now than they used to be. News at 11.

 

Things will be different in 30 years. How different we dont know. But it will be different I promise.

 

My first car cost $55. It was a 1930 Ford two door. This was 1956. Just a 26 year old used car. Think I could find a running 1991 Ford escort for $550 today? I bet I could. Things havent changed all that much. Good cars cost more than junky cars then and today. I bet you werent buying class 1 show cars for $800 even 50 years ago. Conditions were different. Just be happy that guys like us lived thru the glory years of the hobby when everyone was young and had fun in the cars and didnt think of them as investments. Those days are gone........

[JustDave]

I don't think. It's the cars that are not affordable I believe it's the repairs or restore that's gone out of sight,you used to be able to get chrome donereasonable but the cost now is astronomical thanks to the EPA,when I first started painting you could buy a gallon of lacquerpaintfor45.00.anda5 gallon an of lacquer thinner for 30.00 now a gallon of quality paint is in the 400.00 range and the hardened and reducer is extra,unless you use single stage but most single stages have poor juvenile ratings,     Dave

 

[1912Staver]

When I think of Ford Escort I picture the English Ford cars. Mk 1 , Escort RS, Escort RS2000. All great cars, rare to very rare in North America, expensive to very expensive. The US produced Escorts of the 90's, well not so much. Just another econobox with little appeal. Sort of like comparing a 1965 -73 Mustang with a Mustang 2.  I will stick to my rough but genuine 1966 Lotus Cortina {if I am lucky I will see it run in my lifetime, Locort parts are rare and pricy !}.

 

edinmass I have to disagree. Many if not most of the cars I am interested in have gone up quite a bit in the last 15 years. MGA's, TVR's Lotus Cortina's {gone up lots and lots} , Formula fords and 2 litre and under Sports Racers {Lotus , Elva , Lola Etc.} and many others. Yes 1920's / 30's/ 40's are down esp. closed body styles. I used to think a Stutz vertical 8, or perhaps a older post brass era Stutz would eventually be possible, but the last 15 years has seen them shoot up. And I could go on but I think you get the picture.  There are cheap collector cars out there but they are almost always quite ho- hum cars. My wish list has almost universally at least doubled ; often tripled , over the last 15-20 years and I am talking about cars far less than $500,00.00.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited July 2, 2017 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[hidden_hunter]

I think part of the problem is also the cost of parts, a 20 year old car has reasonably available parts for a decent price. The amount of rusted junk that has been sitting in someones chook shed for 40 years that they still want top dollar for (or sit on fleabay for years)

[Guest SaddleRider]

2 hours ago, billorn said:

Things are different now than they used to be. .........My first car cost $55. It was a 1930 Ford two door. This was 1956. Just a 26 year old used car........

 

Yes  - by implication what an illustration of how things have changed.  While we didn't have any Interstates in 1956,  we had many four-lane divided highways,  and lots of inter-city travel.   Once you got on the open road out of the traffic jams in the big cities,  cruising speeds weren't that much different than they are today - 65-75 mph.   The cars of the 1950's were quite capable, (with a couple of cheapo car exceptions)   with their short-strokes and "high" ( numerically low ) rear axle ratios, of going that fast or faster.    A 1930 Ford was and is a hazard under those conditions - anyone have ANY question of what would happen to a bone stock 1930 Ford if you tried to keep up with modern traffic in 1956 or today?

 

By contrast, look how things have changed - how technology advanced since the 1950's.   A 26 year old car today ( assuming it has been properly maintained)    is just as competent in today's traffic as a current issue car.    It isn't going to overheat or "blow" a connecting rod from sustained high speed driving.  Has anyone seen a 26 year old car that DOSNT have air conditioning ?

 

Bottom line - no question about it - things have changed beyond what we could have imagined...and no doubt..will continue to do so !

 

 

[Dynaflash8]

5 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

And what year were the old cars? In 1959 that would be 1939 or older, the same age of car today would be 1997 and older. I dare say you can buy cars from the 90s, 80s, and even the 70s for $1000 - $8000.

 

I'm afraid the day of the $2000 Duesenberg is long gone, and so is the $5000 Mercedes gull wing. But there are some cool cars from the 70s and 80s that are still affordable.

As are the days of a perfect 1936 Buick Century for $300.  I thought of that, but I was in AACA from 1962 and close to it from 1959, and I was also thinking of cars in the 1920s in my statement.

[Dynaflash8]

3 hours ago, cxgvd said:

Many cars are languishing in garages.  I recall an ad posted on these forums a few months ago for a '28 Dodge Brothers, lovely looking, nice colours, hadn't run in a short while $6500.  I bought a nice looking '39 Buick Century sedan last fall, hard to start, $6500. USD.  Needed ignition wires and a coil to get it going.  I have a pre '16 Buick which has been both a good car and investment. Not likely I'll ever drive a Ferrari.  Gary

I certainly haven't seen a GOOD 1939 Buick Century anywhere anytime for $6500 in the last ten years.  You were in the right place and the right time.

[Dynaflash8]

I don't necessarily think an old sedan from the 1940s is "ho-hum".  A '41 Buick Roadmaster sedan or a '47 Cadillac sedan would suit me just fine in my old age.  No need to drag a closed trailer.....a open trailer would do find.....or, just drive it 60 mph with the windows open and enjoy the breeze.  But, try to find a really good one for under $20,000....or $25,000....or even $30,000 for a real good one.  Something major will be wrong with it...the need for a paint job would be the worst of all.  Where I come from, that is still real serious money..............and I'm a long way from the young guy with two kids and a government joy that I was in 1962.  I think we here are preaching to the choir, and none of us are that 26 year old guy with a love for old cars that I was then.  Nuff said.  But, oh by the way, I bought that blue car in the picture for $100 on my birthday in 1963 and had to borrow the money.  I drove it 50 miles home and it became my second car.  It was 2000 before I was able to get an AACA National Senior with it.  It stays when all the others are gone.  Have a great 4th of July!!!!!

 

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[hidden_hunter]

3 minutes ago, Dynaflash8 said:

and I'm a long way from the young guy with two kids and a government joy that I was in 1962.  I think we here are preaching to the choir, and none of us are that 26 year old guy with a love for old cars that I was then.

 

 

 

I'm actually not far off that, asides from the whole 1962 part

[CarNucopia]

5 hours ago, Dynaflash8 said:

Do we wonder why we're not attracting more young men?

 

 

It's pretty simple; young people don't want what old people want.

 

I drove my Figaro to two cruise nights last week and was overwelmed by the number of young car enthusiasts that wanted to talk about the car. When they mention the cars they want, it's things you might not even be familiar with, like an FD, an E30 or something JDM. And, if you go to forums where these guys post, you'll see from their "build threads" they aren't afraid to spend money on their cars. 

 

I think we really need to dispense with the notion there's anything that can be done to get large numbers of young people interested in antique cars.

[Joe in Canada]

The problem here in Canada is the dollar exchange to the US  dollar. I bought a car past spring in Michigan and payed 37% extra on top of the price of the car in exchange rate. It is hard to find an early car up here seeing many have been exported from here. Dealers are buying at a greater price advantage then reselling in the US or Europe for a larger profit. Some sellers are also demanding US $ for their cars that cuts out many Canadian buyers. I see a 1912 Hudson just listed on the HCCA web site asking $150,000. US for the car and it is in Canada. If I were to buy it for the asking price it would then cost me an extra $50,500. over the $150,000. = $200,500.  If it sells I guaranty you it will not be staying up here. The less expensive starter cars are around as they do not get exported but the ones you upgrade to can be more difficult to acquire. I believe this is hurting clubs like HCCA for membership as the early cars are far apart an few between up here now for new members wanting to get involved in the hobby.   

[edinmass]

Greg, my High school history teacher drove a 71 or 72 TVR as an every day car till the mid 80's when I graduated. He couldn't get 2k for it back then when it was well worn and starting to rust. A few of the rare and unusual post war performance cars have been hot  the last ten years, but almost nothing in the 70's or 80's. Lots of market movement is the rising tide of the 1/10 of one percent stuff making everything head north.......the gull wings and 250's will hold, most of the others won't. Don't forget there are not too many rare post war cars, and that's what's keeping the Corvette,Mustang,Camero markets against a wall. Look at the 55-57 T Bird, the prices haven't changed that much for the last thirty years. Any one particular car or marque may jump and fall, but overall things are more affordable from the car purchase standpoint. Service, repair, and restoration........things are now three-four-five times more expensive. Taking a 100 point pre war show car that has been garaged for ten or fifteen years and making it roadworthy can run twenty five to fifty grand just getting it back to driving condition. Tires,tubes, and labor on a pre war car can run five to seven thousand on a car with sidemounts. As far a Stutz, look at the market today, the top five percent of the cars bring 750k to 1.5 mil, the 1926 sedan that runs and drives nice won't bring 30k. So where you are in the Stutz club depends on what you like, and can afford.

Edited July 3, 2017 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Paul Dobbin]

Earl,

I know you drive your cars more than most guys your age, (I admire that) and you hold onto the ones you own.  

But, if you wanted to sell them, would you be one of those overpriced sellers?  Probably not, because you can justify your

prices just the same as other sellers.  Eventually your desire to sell will be reflected in the price. That's the way it's always worked.

I too am looking for another car, and I'm shocked by the prices for the ones I want.  I keep looking and when the desire & price come together I'll buy one.  In the mean time, I'll just wear out the one's I already know how to fix and enjoy their longevity.

[Rusty_OToole]

A 1920s car in 1960 could be between 30 and 40 years old. Like a 1977 - 1987 car today. I remember in the early seventies visiting a local antique car dealer, cars like a nice 20s sedan for $300, a pristine 1940 Willys coupe for $600 and a Model A cabriolet that had been stripped for a hot rod, no fender, running boards, top or engine, $100. There were lots of others to chose from that I don't remember the price of. I do remember turning down a 1932 Ford coupe for $600 because it had Corvair front suspension. I didn't mind the Chev V8. That was a long time ago.

[edinmass]

Paul two weeks ago, I sold my 32 Pierce Coupe. I was on tour in St Louis with the Pierce club. Didn't intend to sell it, but it worked out, so I moved on and am looking for another car, probably a Stutz or Cord. I am quite sure I will find something that peaks my interest sooner or later. I didn't sell for crazy money, both of us were happy with the transaction. In my experience the past ten years, most people don't understand the market or the value of their cars. I was looking at a nice CCCA open car last month, and I am very familiar with the market. The guy was about twice what the market will bring. The Cadillac market is terrible.......an I am a Cadillac guy.  I have owned a bunch of 1931's. Only the best open 16's will bring real money, recently I was stunned when a friend bought a great open 12 that I would be proud to own for half of what I thought the market would bear. I saw a similar car at a dealers showroom for three times what my buddy paid. The market is that broad and diverse. If you look long and hard, you can find good cars at fair prices, open or closed. The trick is to always be looking, and ready to act on a moments notice. The last few cars I purchased, all of them were not actively for sale. We made an inquiry, and put a deal together. It makes sense to chase only good cars that you know and are familiar with. Too much time and money chasing junk has burnt me out. Overall I'm more satisfied with my purchases when I chase and land known good cars. I can start driving them right away. Like I did last week!

[1912Staver]

Hi Ed, I know you are a lot more in tune with the market than I am. And in general you are correct, as long as we are talking about what I consider to be uninteresting cars. In Mustangs I would not be interested in any that were not a GT {1965-69} Mach 1 1969-71, Boss 302 69-70.  I grew up with Mustangs, worked in a 99% Mustang restoration shop in the 1980's, and find any not on my list above nice but for someone else. And I am definitely priced out of any of them that isn't a total basket case. I have driven them all {boss 429 excepted} and owned several, and the plain "c" code,drum brake coupes just don't turn my crank. Almost took the plunge on a 1966 "K" code coupe project a few years ago but my project category is full enough already.

 If there are still $30,000.1926 Stutz sedans around that is welcome news. Unfortunately I sure haven't seen any in my part of the world.

  My big drawback is that I am 5 miles from the Washington State border. Not a long distance but it might as well be 1000 miles. It's no easier to earn a $ in Canada than the USA but by the time I get a US market anything home in my garage the price in Canadian $ {the currency of my paycheque} is double the US sales price. {Exchange , tax , duty, brokerage, transport } Puts me at a distinct disadvantage.  Not pertinent to the overall topic but a big reason why I haven't bought a collector car for a long time.

When you start talking about PA's, open 1930's Cadillac's and Cords you are definitely talking about cars in the 1/2 of the top 1 % of  collector cars in Canada. What we have up here is for the most part pretty ordinary. Anything better has probably already been exported to the U.S. market. {see Joe in Canada's comment above}

Greg in Canada

Edited July 3, 2017 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[edinmass]

I was looking at a Shelby 428 four speed last week. Right car, right engine(428), four speed........."the one you want" car. Owner has had it over thirty years, did a restoration in the 80's to concours standards. Car hasn't seen the street since 1989. It's worth half of what he has in it at 1990 restoration  costs. Perfect car, no stories, even at the "good old days" prices, his in and out was a fifty percent hit. Almost like you would if you had done a 34 Packard twelve club sedan. So the pre war and post war stuff in many ways is parallel. 

Edited July 3, 2017 by edinmass (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

If I was to look at even a so-so 68 Shelby 428 4speed , it would roughly equal 4 years or so of my total take home income, probably in fact more once all the costs were in. That and the divorce costs make even thinking about cars like that painfull.  In the 1980's I could have bought one without any real hardship , sure not the case these days. Please take no offence, but you are clearly in a much different tax bracket than I am.

 

Greg in Canada

[edinmass]

Greg, most of the cars I work on and deal with are MUCH beyond my reach. I'm lucky to have a background that lets me work on the cars I have a passion for.......I get paid to do something that brings me pure joy. It's very fun and gratifying. Most of the car clubs, even the pre war and HCCA are all working class people. What many spend on casinos, nightclubs, travel, and other expensive non tangible things, car collectors tend to do without.......and buy cars. I'm the same way. I much rather have cool cars than a big house. Never spent twenty bucks at the casino in my life. Problem is today we in the middle class are slipping backwards, while the cost of living, raising a family, paying for college, everything is costing more and more money, and our pay is static at best. Not having children has saved me about seven figures in expenses. I figure my cars have cost me about what it would to have raised three or four kids. So, I have a bit of advantage over most. Otherwise I would be collecting bottle caps. My best, Ed

[1912Staver]

Sorry to hear you are just one of us. For a moment I assumed you were the owner of the Co. my bosses boss worked for.  But seriously I am relived to see I am not the only one trying to get by on a stagnant middle class income. All of what you say is only too true. And in Canada even more so.

Your job sounds like a car guy's dream come true. What you say about the expense of kids is quite true. I only have one, a teenaged boy . But a substantial drain on the disposable income.  Likewise my only passion apart from family is the cars. Modest house, modest lifestyle, but the old car budget shrinks every decade. Several potential project cars but nothing drivable. It will be several years until time and $ allow one to be completed. Been interested in old cars since I was 10 years old {49 years} , owned old cars since I was 15 , a Sunbeam Alpine, replaced by my first MGA when I was 16. As the years go by there has been increasing frustration with my inability to keep up with rising costs. But I still plug on, they are in my blood.

 

Greg in Canada

[Rusty_OToole]

There is nothing new about all this. One story that illustrates what happens to desirable old cars, is Merle Norman's Duesenberg. He wanted to start a cosmetic company and to raise money he sold his Duesenberg to Bill Harrah in 1962 for $5000. Ten years later, his business a success, he approached Harrah and asked if he could buy his old car back. Harrah said ordinarily he did not sell cars but under the circumstances, would sell it back to him - for $50,000. Norman indignantly refused. Harrah kept the car and after his death it was sold in 1986 for more than $500,000. I recall Norman bought it back for $650,000 but can't swear to it and am too lazy to do a web search.

 

The point is it happens to everybody. As time goes on they get older and rarer, they deteriorate and need expensive work, for one reason or another are actually worth a lot more than they used to be, which is neither here nor there except for supply and demand. The supply of good cars is slowly shrinking and so is the supply of parts, guys who know how to work on them etc.

 

I don't want to be morbid but probably the best buys are in run of the mill 1930s and older models. The guys who owned and loved them are dying off or dead and the cars can often be bought reasonable. Not the Duesenbergs and top museum pieces, the Studebakers and DeSotos.

[cahartley]

Setting a price is one thing.

Getting it is another....... 

[1912Staver]

5 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

The problem here in Canada is the dollar exchange to the US  dollar. I bought a car past spring in Michigan and payed 37% extra on top of the price of the car in exchange rate. It is hard to find an early car up here seeing many have been exported from here. Dealers are buying at a greater price advantage then reselling in the US or Europe for a larger profit. Some sellers are also demanding US $ for their cars that cuts out many Canadian buyers. I see a 1912 Hudson just listed on the HCCA web site asking $150,000. US for the car and it is in Canada. If I were to buy it for the asking price it would then cost me an extra $50,500. over the $150,000. = $200,500.  If it sells I guaranty you it will not be staying up here. The less expensive starter cars are around as they do not get exported but the ones you upgrade to can be more difficult to acquire. I believe this is hurting clubs like HCCA for membership as the early cars are far apart an few between up here now for new members wanting to get involved in the hobby.   

Hi Joe, that Hudson looks like a very nice car but I don't see it selling for anything near $150,000 either U.S. or Canadian.  The Stoddard Dayton on the HCCA site is the same price, way more of a Blue Chip car and is still for sale months after it first appeared. A Hudson ; even if it is a rare factory speedster, just isn't in the same league. But I agree , if it does eventually sell it is unlikely to stay in Canada. And I totally agree about our Canadian $ situation. We are at a big disadvantage in the marketplace.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited July 3, 2017 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[mrcvs]

I think the problem today is multifaceted. Unless one collects old cars that are at the high end that has outpaced inflation, I think that old cars are not necessarily extremely expensive and outpacing inflation. As others pointed out, a car of 1920's to '40's vintage can be had very reasonably, even '50's stuff. If you want a brass era car that is in impeccable condition and not of a common make (I do!), or a muscle car, maybe this stuff is priced out of the league of most folks. If you just want a vintage car that runs, might have replaced parts, not a trophy winner, but something to take for a Sunday afternoon drive with the wife and kids, this can still be had reasonably.

 

But, the problem lies with stagnant wages and inflation on everything else. How is the average working stiff going to afford something extraordinary when he has to pay for day care or junior's college expenses plus a mortgage, when his wages are stagnant?

 

Or, where does one store all these cars? If the wife wants to live in a neighborhood (most do), gone are the days of buying from a local builder, a house on a decent size lot, room for outbuildings, at a reasonable price. These national builders cram as many houses as they can into a development and you get a 2 Or 3 bay garage with no room for a workbench. With tools in the basement and one car in the garage, it makes working on cars a cramped experience with trips to the basement to fetch tools. I rent space in a barn for the second car and it is nowhere near as much fun as having it nearby. I think in the past, there wasn't the propensity for national builders to corner the real estate market and base the cost of a house on the maximum two working individuals can afford. Okay, why not buy an old farmhouse with outbuildings? First, the wife won't like it. Secondly, unless really run down, they are rather costly. Even run down can be costly due to development value. Around here you are competing against the development value of the land to a developer, so good luck purchasing a place with some acreage and a pole barn one can fill with 8 Or 10 vintage cars.

[Dynaflash8]

10 hours ago, Buick64C said:

It's pretty simple; young people don't want what old people want.

 

I drove my Figaro to two cruise nights last week and was overwelmed by the number of young car enthusiasts that wanted to talk about the car. When they mention the cars they want, it's things you might not even be familiar with, like an FD, an E30 or something JDM. And, if you go to forums where these guys post, you'll see from their "build threads" they aren't afraid to spend money on their cars. 

 

I think we really need to dispense with the notion there's anything that can be done to get large numbers of young people interested in antique cars.

That doesn't bring down any prices on the old cars that I do want.  Maybe it is sticker shock.  I mean my daughter had to pay $197 for a battery for a 1998 Chevrolet tin can last week.  That included installation, but even so, a battery for that car should be $55.  We are living in a time where money is cheap.  So, I think the four cars I've got might well be the last old cars I'll ever own.  I can buy mutual funds and get over 6% on $30,000 and use the monthly income to travel rather than watch my old car sit in the garage for $152 a month.  I'm just tired of these prices.

[alsancle]

Rusty,  I think you mean J.B. Nethercutt as Merle Norman was his Aunt and founder of the company. I recall that story too but I don't think it was a Model J, but can't remember the exact car.  Couldn't have been the Dupont could it?

 

Ed,  everybody whips out the T-Bird as the example of stagnant values.   I agree that the pricing on that car literally hasn't changed in 30-40 years.  Juxtapose that against the 55-57 XK140 and you seem something that has tripled in price in the same time.   Some cars have skyrocketed while many have not budged.

 

Things change and the market corrects everything eventually.  How many 18 year olds can change a tire or oil in a 20 year old car?   Mechanical skills are diminishing at a rapid pace and they are absolutely required for the average hobbyist to own his own car.   Think about model trains and how many guys were doing that 40 years ago?  Everybody!  

 

 

[Guest Skyking]

The good prices are still out there,  you just have to be at the right place at the right time.  I picked up this nice Chevelle for less than half the price they're selling for on eBay.  

[R W Burgess]

55 minutes ago, Skyking said:

The good prices are still out there,  you just have to be at the right place at the right time.  I picked up this nice Chevelle for less than half the price they're selling for on eBay.  

 

*

*

Good to see you on here again Sky!!! Happy Holidays!

[Frantz]

It's interest... I drive a Fiesta for my daily driver and my payment is $263. I pay $200 a month to rent a 20x60 shop, and I spend probably another $200 a month on parts for my project cars. If I was a little less obsessed with the idea of fixing things, I could easily have the $400 and put that toward a payment on an old car, and $400 a month would be a pretty nice vehicle. I'd love a '56 Merc, and that would be very attainable with a loan... but I like having the shop... so for now this is how I'm doing it. So my total auto budget is $663 (excluding insurance and fuel). I work in the new car business and so I would say that's probably higher than most of my peers, but not by much. Seeing folks get $450-550 payments in their 30s isn't uncommon by any means. It's just a lifestyle choice. I like my little Fiesta with crank windows and a manual trans. My daughter is 4 and she fits in the back. My wife has the big car, a Focus. If we get more kids we'll get an Escape. The number of folks who buy huge vehicles because of their kids friends is a bit silly IMO. Get a rental car for a day or week if you have something planned! But it's a lifestyle. I think anyone of modest means can afford a safe driving antique, and anyone who at least has one foot in the door of "adulting" as we like to call it, can afford a nice classic. I did a quick CL search for 1940 autos (my fav way to find cars is just type in the year and you find all sorts of stuff you've forgotten about... and so has everyone else). For $15,500 there is a very nice Bantam convertible, $38k for a very clean looking 1940 Ford Business Coupe, and for $8500 looks like a great base project in a Packard 120 that claims to need some brake work but runs. There are always ugly duckling projects that can be driven for $1-2k and a pretty nice Model T is common for $12k. IMO price isn't a factor beyond perhaps a perception.

[R Walling]

"Are we pricing our old cars and hobby out of existence?"

 

 Way back when... The hobby was repairing them and having fun when we did it ourselves.

The "repairs" were probably not exactly OEM but we had fun. New parts were not available so we repaired them and kept the cost low.

 

After the war, (don't ask me which one, as there was only one) having a model A that was presentable was a nice car. No one took out a micrometer to check the wheel base or a microscope to the paint.

 

 Now, there are ready made parts, or for that mater, ready made cars. That is where the expense comes from. 

Edited July 3, 2017 by Roger Walling (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

18 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I am hard pressed to think of much from the 80's that I would consider owning. Esp. built in North America.

 

While I appreciate cars from all decades, I could

be a satisfied collector with cars only from the 1980's:

 

---1979-85 Buick Riviera, and notably the convertibles;

---1979-85 Cadillac Eldorado, and the convertibles in that line;

---1980-83 Lincoln Mark VI

---Early 1980's Lincoln Town Coupes.  Try to find one!

---1980-84 Buick Electra, coupe or sedan

---The full-sized GM station wagons.  They are not often seen today.

 

When people think of great old cars at bargain prices, they 

must remember that those cars might have been only 30 years

old at the time.  The cars I listed are now inexpensive.  They may be

the desirable and scarce cars that people ogle at a show in 2040. 

 

No matter what your age and experience, always look forward--

and never settle, Earl or anyone else, for that rocking chair!

Edited July 3, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

4 hours ago, mrcvs said:

I think the problem today is multifaceted.

 

Everything is multifaceted, always has been.

 

My old car hobby has pretty much been paid for by my activities in the hobby. Buying and selling car and parts, maybe a little side work servicing has never been difficult to do and just seemed to be a natural way of doing things.

 

My Dad had a factory job and he bought and sold a few good cars as I was growing up.

This is me at about 10 years old with a Pontiac he sold to a guy in town. Every time I see the buyer he still tells me what a great car it was.

 

For me the casual sales have supported my hobby. Since I have been married it would be a stretch to think that 10% of my post-tax work earnings ever hit an old car.

 

For young people there is a lurking facet that will affect the casual sales many of us old guys relied on for out hobby. The rumblings about rural broadband have been fairly (or unfairly) quiet recently. Technical issues are being addressed now. It is being compared to bringing the telephone to farms and an entry into the world market through the network.

 

With the increased use of "plastic" money a case for the dissolution of hard currency can be made. Extended broadband will make it workable. With the exclusivity of electronic transactions casual sales of cars and parts, a $50 welding job in a farm shop, or a dozen ears of home grown corn can immediately be monitored and taxed as sales or income, resulting in fees of about 30%. That will have a real impact on discretionary money in the future. The reasons for the transition can be the cost of making money or the threat of terrorist funding. There is a wide range of reasoning. Self funded hobbies will feel it. Some of the diners I stop in for lunch are supported by that economy. It is a wide spread economy. And the young guys in the hobby will feel it if it comes to fruition. When is the last time you added a tip to your debit card?

 

I may be reading too much into my observations, but I see a lot of money grubbing from taxes, fees, and fines that make me distrustful. There is hardly a regulation that goes into place without a financial penalty. Many times the intent of the regulation is not realized but the cash comes in. (How many municipalities have taken down speed monitoring cameras when cash income from fines was reduced?)

 

The youth has been targeted as a ripe tomato to squeeze for increased revenue. We will be pointed out as an extravagant generation and their Spartan lives will be the norm.

 

A year after that Pontiac picture was taken I got my first car.

Bernie

[Rusty_OToole]

Dynaflash let me turn the tables on you. You say you have some nice restored cars. How much would you have to get for them, to get back the money you spent? Would you sell any of them for $300? You must know what things cost these days. Can you expect someone else to take a major loss so you can have another play toy? Lets be reasonable.

[JV Puleo]

I don't believe the time comparisons everyone likes to make are entirely fair or accurate. A 20 year old car in 1970 was a 1950 model. I was driving in 1970 and I can say with some certainty that there were no 1950 cars on the road as everyday drivers. Around 1973 my every day car was a 56 Plymouth and that was considered VERY unusual. Just look at the photos on "The Old Motor"... one almost never sees a 10 year old car, much less one that is 20 years old. Today, my everyday car is a 98 GMC... 19 years old and doesn't look or seem a bit out of the norm in my area. That car that was 30 years in 1970 would be roughly analogous to a 60 year old car today.

 

As to pricing ourselves out of the market... yes, I do think that is happening in some areas but that is the nature of collecting. Some things are hot, others are stagnant. It is true in all other areas as well – just look at coins and stamps, once the most popular collected items and today moribund. If I had to keep a 70s car because that was all I could afford, I'd give up on old cars all together. My interests include brass cars and end with the 20s. Fortunately, the latter part of that era is in the doldrums so I haven't been squeezed out completely. What we are really complaining about is that the prices of POPULAR cars (i.e. popular now, not necessarily in the past or the future) are high but that has probably always been the case. My first old car was a 27 Cadillac sedan. I couldn't touch an open car at the time – nor since.  I've collected Federal period martial arms since I was a teenager... I never even looked at US martial pistols because those were the popular, "expensive" items. Today, there are probably four collectors left that are specifically interested in them and the prices have hardly changed for 30 years.

 

And... I think the heavy emphasis on points judging that the AACA and specialist clubs make so much of has had a long term, deleterious effect by forcing up the "price of admittance" and actively discouraging people to do their own work even if it isn't always up to "professional" standards.