GM Diesel Sierra/Silverado Law Suit?

[John348]

Hello All,

I did not want to place this in the Towing/Tow Vehicle thread as it does not get as much traffic. I wanted everyone to be aware of this considering that this effects at least 1/4 of the tow vehicles seen at our meets. Apparently GM is bring brought up on the same charges as VW was in 2015 for cheating on emissions. I was debating trading in my 2013 2500 HD Sierra for a 2018 (I was told orders were getting written for 2018's at the end of May)  Someone had just old me about it and I just wanted to get the word out before anyone trades one away, or buys used one in the suit. I do love my Sierra, pulls my trailer without any effort, but one of my son's is looking for a new truck so I thought it would be the fatherly thing to do and let him buy it for the trade in offered to me, lower then wholesale for a 70,000 mile truck. So now I am going to wait it out... 

 

For more info here is a link to the lawsuit filed on 6/21/2017

 

https://www.hbsslaw.com/uploads/case_downloads/silverado_sierra/silveradoclassactioncomplaint.pdf

Edited June 29, 2017 by John348 (see edit history)

[capngrog]

Another class action lawsuit to the lawyers' benefit.

 

Cheers,

Grog

[John348]

I would tend to agree on that observation but on this I am not be so sure of that, I know of a few people that had VW's and they just dropped off the vehicle and picked up a new one. The problem is that there is absolute zero resale for those infected VW's in the US (except states like Fla that do not have emission testing). While the dealers are offering me now near 40K for a trade in, in a few months they might not offer anything....

[mike6024]

GM denies the accusations, saying its engines meet standards set by U.S. and California environmental agencies.

"These claims are baseless and we will vigorously defend ourselves," the company says. "The Duramax Diesel Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra comply with all U.S. EPA and CARB emissions regulations."

 

While acknowledging that each car maker customized the EDC unit's specifications and software for their own vehicles, the suit states that "Bosch's EDC Unit 17 gave Volkswagen, GM, and other manufacturers the power to detect test scenarios by monitoring vehicle speed, acceleration, engine operation, air pressure, and even the position of the steering wheel."

 

When NPR asked the Environmental Protection Agency to comment on the case and whether there had been any issues with the vehicles in question, the agency declined to comment. The California Air Resources Board also said it has nothing to say at this time.

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/05/26/530221853/lawsuit-claims-gm-used-defeat-devices-on-duramax-diesel-trucks-and-suvs

 

So theoretically the computer control could be set-up to detect a testing situation and alter parameters to reduce the emissions. Where is the proof that was actually done though?

[60FlatTop]

I heard about a guy who had a hernia repaired with faulty mesh that is pending a lawsuit. He felt depressed and told his doctor who prescribed Abilify. He got a little over optimistic and drove his diesel Chevy truck to the casino, way more than once. At the bar in the casino he saw that his losses could be recovered, and new truck, and a little pocket money (but not for gambling) were all pending the court decision. He knocked down a couple of more drinks and got a little wobbly. Two unemployed German computer programmers showed him how to defeat the breathalyzer and he headed for home to wait for the checks.

After his fatal accident his state mandated insurance claim was denied. The widow called for help. She new to dial all the same numbers and started at zero. The operator kept interrupting.

 

In none of these instances was health, welfare, quality of life, or the needs of the environment met by the regulations. Stay tuned for the new fall season of ambulance chasers coming to a pay cable TV channel near you, the kind where you pay and don't have to listen to commercials.

 

Bernie

 

 

[joe_padavano]

2 hours ago, capngrog said:

Another class action lawsuit to the lawyers' benefit.

 

Cheers,

Grog

 

Sadly, you are far too correct...

 

Anyone remember the great GM pickup gas tank class action lawsuit?  The lawyers got millions, the class members got a coupon for a discount on a new GM truck.

[Joe in Canada]

I will stick to my GMC 2500 gas and not too impressed with the Duramax second generation. The fuel mileage is no longer there to warrant to have a diesel for all I drive. Plus the towing capacity is not much different than the gas engine.

[CarlLaFong]

And now Lowes has been ordered to pay 1.6 million in damages because their 2X4s are actually 1 1/2 X 3 1/2. As a retired carpenter, I will not comment on the comprehensive stupidity of this decision or the nitwit, liberal judge who heard the case or the ambulance chasing, sleazeball lawyers who hatched this quick, money making scheme........................oops, I think I may have commented

[Robert Street]

John:

I would buy a 2018 without any reservation.  I ordered a 2017 3500HD with the new Duramax back in September as I had sold my F350 6.7 Powerstroke.  Waited until the first week of February to get the truck as I learned it and many 100's of them were "Bayed" in Michigan as my 3500HD was built the last week of November.  The reason for the bayed vehicles was hands on emissions testing of the L5P Duramax.  This is an incredible truck and the economy is unreal compared to the 6.7 Powerstroke. Mine has 16,000 miles most of that towing. My best 50 mile continuous mileage segment is 26.3 MPG.  Also let's not forget that the 2017 3500's won the Ike's Gauntlet truck testing this year!

Now,  The 2017's are a different motor than the LML's that are the subject of the suit. The suit is solely focused on that model Duramax with the Bosche systems.  The L5P Duramax is a Denso system far different than the earlier ones.

Not gonna make any specific comments of the suit but to ensure your thinking read about the plaintiffs and the trucks represented.

Robert

Now the good news will we see you in Iowa?

[joe_padavano]

23 minutes ago, CarlLaFong said:

And now Lowes has been ordered to pay 1.6 million in damages because their 2X4s are actually 1 1/2 X 3 1/2. As a retired carpenter, I will not comment on the comprehensive stupidity of this decision or the nitwit, liberal judge who heard the case or the ambulance chasing, sleazeball lawyers who hatched this quick, money making scheme........................oops, I think I may have commented

 

Lowes wasn't "ordered" to pay anything.  Lowes' management decided that it was cheaper to settle than to fight this idiocy. A judge approved the proposed settlement. This all happened in 2014, by the way, and only applies to Lowes in Calif.  Of course, Lowes' customers are the ones who actually will pay this bill.  Unfortunately, since Lowes settled and thus set precedent, it has emboldened more ambulance-chasing lawyers to sue Home Depot and Menards for the same thing.  Hopefully one of them will have the stones to fight this.

[Bhigdog]

Lowes should have corrected their "error" by selling only actual 2" x 4" or the later 1 5/8" X 3 5/8" lumber. Then listen to the builders who had to work with these odd ball sizes howl along with the new home buyers whose cost of construction went up by 10% or so because of the added cost of the lumber, labor and wasted material trying to make components designed for modern 2 X 4's fit with the "correct" sized lumber.

Actually, it's not a bit surprising this is a Calif. boondoggle.

I kind of feel you get what you deserve.................Bob

[old car fan]

flattop is right and funny, it is the truth ha, no fake news here

[victorialynn2]

I worked in the largest independant lumberyard in New England in the 80's for 10 years. My ex-husband was a framer. 2 X 4's have never been 2 x 4. Maybe they should sue the saw mills they all get them from.

 

Stupid, stupid lawsuits. 

We live in an age where the next generation wants to blame someone and not look at themselves and take no responsibility for their feelings either. 

 

That being said, if there is truly a safety issue or misrepresentation with autos, there should be consequences. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by victorialynn2 (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Our 2nd house was built in 1946 with lumber cut before the war. We bought the house as a fixer upper in 1980 and it needed all kinds of repair. The 2x4's were actually that the roof and floor joist were actual sized also. Lumber milled prior to the war was actual size they called it. Because of the housing boom they started milling it smaller for cost/profit margins. It was a bear making some of that fit in an old house. I actually put an extra board on every support to make it fit and that was costly in time and dollars. Lowes should have fought the law suit in my option. I'm sure they didn't really care what someone like me thought. 

[60FlatTop]

That nitwit judge probably looked at the measurements on the 2X4 and never noticed it went across his bench and curved to the back row of jury seats. We call 'em banana boards around here.

 

I kept trying to remember that repeated number from the ads. I could have sworn the announcer said call 666-66 66, no answer so I checked the Criss-Cross Book for the address. I got there and peeked in the back window. They were all hanging upside down from the rafters taking a nap.

 

[John348]

3 hours ago, Robert Street said:

John:

I would buy a 2018 without any reservation.  I ordered a 2017 3500HD with the new Duramax back in September as I had sold my F350 6.7 Powerstroke.  Waited until the first week of February to get the truck as I learned it and many 100's of them were "Bayed" in Michigan as my 3500HD was built the last week of November.  The reason for the bayed vehicles was hands on emissions testing of the L5P Duramax.  This is an incredible truck and the economy is unreal compared to the 6.7 Powerstroke. Mine has 16,000 miles most of that towing. My best 50 mile continuous mileage segment is 26.3 MPG.  Also let's not forget that the 2017 3500's won the Ike's Gauntlet truck testing this year!

Now,  The 2017's are a different motor than the LML's that are the subject of the suit. The suit is solely focused on that model Duramax with the Bosche systems.  The L5P Duramax is a Denso system far different than the earlier ones.

Not gonna make any specific comments of the suit but to ensure your thinking read about the plaintiffs and the trucks represented.

Robert

Now the good news will we see you in Iowa?

 

Hey Robert, 

Always a pleasure! I think I mentioned to you in Ocala I was looking into the 17's then I found out that they were taking orders for the 18's in May. My truck is fine I just don't want my son getting stuck with a problem down the road when he goes to get rid of it, that is my main concern. The MPG's on yours are great, I never came close to that. No Iowa for me my friend my mother in law is not doing well and she is 98 years old so I am staying close to home this summer.

 

5 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

I heard about a guy who had a hernia repaired with faulty mesh that is pending a lawsuit.

Bernie

 

That guy you heard about is me, I almost passed away a year ago from a failed hernia mesh, lost 6" of my intestines, and went toxic from the mesh piercing my intestines.just from tying my shoes, and it is pending a lawsuit.

 

For everyone else the medical product failure case's are not a class action suit they are called a mass tort suit,

[Uncle_Buck]

On 6/29/2017 at 1:19 PM, John348 said:

I would tend to agree on that observation but on this I am not be so sure of that, I know of a few people that had VW's and they just dropped off the vehicle and picked up a new one. The problem is that there is absolute zero resale for those infected VW's in the US (except states like Fla that do not have emission testing). While the dealers are offering me now near 40K for a trade in, in a few months they might not offer anything....

 

I'm glad your acquaintances were able to 'drop off the vehicle and pick(ed) up a new one'.  As an actual owner of a VW diesel Jetta affected by this debacle, I can tell you first hand that the whole experience was not pleasant, seamless, expedient nor any way, financially advantageous.  If I were to add all the details, it would sound like a rant, so I won't.

 

Lets just say that I hope this never happens to anyone ever again ...  

[padgett]

Nothing new, Pontiac ran afoul of the EPA in 1973 about emission controls (why engine colors changed from light blue to dark blue and why the SD455 was held up).

[cahartley]

On 6/29/2017 at 3:46 PM, CarlLaFong said:

And now Lowes has been ordered to pay 1.6 million in damages because their 2X4s are actually 1 1/2 X 3 1/2. As a retired carpenter, I will not comment on the comprehensive stupidity of this decision or the nitwit, liberal judge who heard the case or the ambulance chasing, sleazeball lawyers who hatched this quick, money making scheme........................oops, I think I may have commented

 

When I built a house back in the late 70's 2 × 4's measured 1 7/16" × 3 7/16" and that was measuring with a machinists' caliper.

How ANY lawyer ANYWHERE could win this suit is beyond me....... 

[Larry Schramm]

On ‎6‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 8:58 PM, cahartley said:

 

When I built a house back in the late 70's 2 × 4's measured 1 7/16" × 3 7/16" and that was measuring with a machinists' caliper.

How ANY lawyer ANYWHERE could win this suit is beyond me....... 

 

Less than intelligent juries.

[charlier]

Getting this thread back on topic....

 

I agree with others here that proof needs to be provided to support this class action suit. If the lawyers involved are smart, they had the trucks involved tested by the same scientists at West Virginia University who used Portable Emissions Measurement Systems (PEMS). The data from those scientists and tests along with other tests from other sources were used to prove the case against Volkswagen. It makes sense to use the same testing methods/people. If the lawyers did not do their homework before bring this lawsuit they are pretty dumb since AFAIK they don't get paid if they don't win.

 

If, in fact, GM is found to have violated the law concerning these trucks, one would think that they would face similar fines and orders to fix the vehicles involved that VW was required to do. In VW's case they are paying close to 5 billion in fines and about 10 Billion to buyback or repair the vehicles.

Since the number of trucks is higher than VW's by about 118,000 (at this point) GM could be facing more than VW in fines and costs.

 

I too know VW diesel owners that took the buyback option. In these cases they did not buy another VW for one of two reasons. First, they needed a high MPG vehicle and VW did not sell one at this time or Two, they wanted something with a lower total cost of ownership that had a reputation for reliability.

From the information I have seen it appears that about 1/2 of diesel owners stayed with VW. This probably doesn't matter much when it comes to GM diesel trucks since they are a different animal compared to VW's cars & SUVs.

 

Another interesting thing about the VW situation. Of the 51% of diesels vehicles VW has bought back or repaired so far, only 2.5% were fixed. The other 97.5 were buybacks that were scrapped. This has a lot to do with the particular diesel engine involved since there is currently no published fix for the older VW diesel engines as of now.

 

When it comes to the GM situation I suppose one has to wonder if  a fix was developed and it  decreased performance and MPG by 10-20% would owners even care? If GM could not sell any new diesel trucks for a year or more (while they fixed a problem) would owners move on to another brand or buy a GM truck with a gas engine with buyback money or wait until GM had a diesel truck they were permitted to sell? 

 

It looks like TIme Will Tell as to the allegations against GM in this lawsuit.  Stay Tuned.

 

 

 

[Doug Novak]

I always wondered with the VW situation, the Diesels were getting 52 miles to a gallon. So the question is if  a VW Gasoline engine gets averaged mid to high 20's MPG of gas, wouldn't a 52 MPG Diesel, going the same distance burning say half as much fuel as the 25-30 MPG vehicle, pollute less? If so, are the Diesels required to meet the same emission standards as the Gas Cars?

[John348]

1 hour ago, charlier said:

Getting this thread back on topic....

 

 The other 97.5 were buybacks that were scrapped.

 

 

First of all Charlier thanks for bringing it back on topic!!!

 

I don't know if they were scrapped but rather sold oversea's  to countries where there is little if any emission testing required. Like you said we will have to see where this is going to go. The law firm is the same one who won the VW case so like you said we will have to wait and see how his plays out. 

Overall it really did not hurt VW the stock dropped for a few weeks, which I jumped in on and now last I looked it was pretty close to $30 a share, it was very good for me

 

Doug  Diesels require DEF or diesel exhaust fluid which is injected into the exhaust, from what I understand it lowers the NOX (nitrous oxide)  I really do not know the process, what I do know is the tank for the DEF holds only 5 gallons and there is no dip stick which is not the best way to do it

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2017 by John348 (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

People wonder why this kind of stuff falls on dead ears.

 

https://www.uschamber.com/press-release/trial-lawyer-tv-ads-medical-malpractice-lawsuits-grew-1400-percent-last-four-years

 

Has anyone noticed that the $19 a month to save animals and babies never show blue eyes.

 

I guess the malamutes are doing pretty good on their own.

 

 

[39BuickEight]

attorneys have ruined this country, convincing people they have problems and that money paid to them comes out of thin air

[John348]

13 minutes ago, 39BuickEight said:

attorneys have ruined this country, convincing people they have problems and that money paid to them comes out of thin air

 

Matter of opinion, I almost died a year ago from a failed hernia mesh. no attorney convinced me that I had a problem after loosing 6" of my intestines and having a cut across my abdomen from hip to hip, Priest came in to offer my last rites, and my Children,Grandchildren and friends came to say their farewell because of a faulty product. I was very lucky to shake the toxic infection. I guess I am a faker? I am glad that you and the others did not have to go through what I went through last year.  I am not billionaire businessman so I am really not so sympathetic to their cause when they cut corners and screw people over to make more profit

 

Bottom line this thread not about lawyers/lawsuits or 2X4's. I posted it inform some of members who might own one of these trucks as a tow vehicle or might even consider buying one now used for a tow vehicle that there might be a problem and to be aware the potential is there for a problem

 

Edited July 5, 2017 by John348 (see edit history)

[39BuickEight]

What you posted does not have anything to do with what I posted.  You clearly had a real problem.

Edited July 5, 2017 by 39BuickEight (see edit history)

[charlier]

16 minutes ago, John348 said:

 

First of all Charlier thanks for bringing it back on topic!!!

 

I don't know if they were scrapped but rather sold oversea's  to countries where there is little if any emission testing required. Like you said we will have to see where this is going to go. The law firm is the same one who won the VW case so like you said we will have to wait and see how his plays out. 

Overall it really did not hurt VW the stock dropped for a few weeks, which I jumped in on and now last I looked it was pretty close to $30 a share, it was very good for me

 

Doug  Diesels require DEF or diesel exhaust fluid which is injected into the exhaust, from what I understand it lowers the NOX (nitrous oxide)  I really do not know the process, what I do know is the tank for the DEF holds only 5 gallons and there is no dip stick which is not the best way to do it

 

 

 

 

 

John348, you're welcome.

 

John, I stand corrected. I would imagine only the older VWs with diesel engines, high miles and whose bodies, interiors, etc. are in poor condition may have been scrapped as of now. I know several people who work at VW dealerships who have told me that several VW's that were bought back were in very, very poor condition and were not worth fixing (they had other problems) let alone correcting their emissions issue.

 

According to the court ruling, VW cannot resell or export the diesel vehicles unless they are modified to comply with the EPA regulations. According to reports only 157,000 of the 482,000 vehicles involved may require less costly repairs to make them compliant (ie reprogram the ECU). The other 325,000 vehicles might require installation of catalytic converters, urea tanks, and many engine modifications they were never designed to accommodate. These are the cars whose engines are most likely to be "disabled" or "rendered inoperable" under the terms of the court ruling. As of now, there is no approved plan as to how most of the vehicles (ie older ones) can be brought into compliance here in the USA. Therefore the final cost for VW has yet to be determined.

 

VW also faces many more court cases along with potential fines and costs in various other countries around the world. Until those court rulings are final and the fines/costs associated with them are determined (for about 10.5 million vehicles), the direction/price level of VW stock is far from certain. 

 

[Doug Novak]

There's a VW Dealer in Maryland that was given 30  brand new never sold before 2015 VW Diesels. to be resold as used. To fix and make compliant the on-board computers have been reprogrammed and OK'e by the Government. The prices for these is a deal. 

 

CARS.COM — Diesel may be dead to Volkswagen, but apparently it's not to diesel's fans. VW got EPA approval March 30 to fix and begin selling about 12,000 brand-new model-year 2015 2.0-liter diesel models that were stranded on dealer lots when the diesel emissions scandal broke, ending production and sales. By April 30, some 3,196 had been snapped up.

Related: VW Cleared to Sell 2015 Diesels After Fix

That was reflected in dealer listings on Cars.com, where more than 3,300 new ones were listed last week and as of today, there were 3,012, some at healthy discounts.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Doug Novak (see edit history)

[Robert Street]

4 hours ago, John348 said:

 

First of all Charlier thanks for bringing it back on topic!!!

 

Doug  Diesels require DEF or diesel exhaust fluid which is injected into the exhaust, from what I understand it lowers the NOX (nitrous oxide)  I really do not know the process, what I do know is the tank for the DEF holds only 5 gallons and there is no dip stick which is not the best way to do it

 

 

 

 

John

the 2017's DEF tank is now 7 gallons rather than 5.  The DEF levels are done by electronic sensor starting at about 30 percent I think. I didn't get too far up 301 after leaving you all in Ocala before my DIC announced a low DEF level!  Stopped and filled it up near Jacksonville.

tell your son my new L5P Duramax uses more DEF then 2016's due to lowering NOX emissions standards but with "normal" driving he will still get 800 to 1,000 miles per gallon of DEF. I get about 400-500 while towing though.

I have used 6.0/6.2 gas 2500's and they are wimps in my opinion so I hope he doesn't get taken into one of them unless he is towing lite and infrequent. 910+ foot pounds of torque is great!

Like you I read the DEF formula but don't understand it either like you. We better stay with older cars!

Robert

[mercer09]

 

I too know VW diesel owners that took the buyback option. In these cases they did not buy another VW for one of two reasons. First, they needed a high MPG vehicle and VW did not sell one at this time or Two, they wanted something with a lower total cost of ownership that had a reputation for reliability.

From the information I have seen it appears that about 1/2 of diesel owners stayed with VW. This probably doesn't matter much when it comes to GM diesel trucks since they are a different animal compared to VW's cars & SUVs.

 

 

 

and VW went on to outsell every other manufacturer in the world last year..............................

 

who would have guessed???????????????

 

somebody likes vw!

[charlier]

11 hours ago, mercer09 said:

I too know VW diesel owners that took the buyback option. In these cases they did not buy another VW for one of two reasons. First, they needed a high MPG vehicle and VW did not sell one at this time or Two, they wanted something with a lower total cost of ownership that had a reputation for reliability.

From the information I have seen it appears that about 1/2 of diesel owners stayed with VW. This probably doesn't matter much when it comes to GM diesel trucks since they are a different animal compared to VW's cars & SUVs.

 

 

and VW went on to outsell every other manufacturer in the world last year..............................

 

who would have guessed???????????????

 

somebody likes vw!

 

Yes, VW was the top selling vehicle manufacturer in 2016 no question about that. VW did that in spite of the fact that sales in the USA were down 12% here.

Considering the US market makes up only about 3% of VW's worldwide sales it is easy to see  how the drop of US sales did not greatly impact their worldwide sales.

[joe_padavano]

I'm sorry, but this whole lawsuit is EXACTLY about profiteering lawyers, not the trucks.  The fundamental difference between the VW case and this lawsuit is that the EPA flagged VW for violations FIRST, then the lawyers piled on. There has been no such EPA action against GM - right now there is nothing official that says these trucks are not compliant.  The complaint even states:

Quote

Testing confirmed that the vehicle complies with emissions standards at the temperature windows where the emissions test is performed for certification.

 

This is profiteering, pure and simple.  The class action settlement will be millions of dollars for the lawyers and coupons for the class members.

 

 

[60FlatTop]

Lawyers, politicians, media reporters and producers have all worked hard to destroy their image in the eyes of the public.

 

It's gotten to the point where I'm afraid to sell a $500 car for $2500 any more!

I can see the commercial now- "If you have purchased a car from Bernie Daily, or know of a relative, friend, or neighbor, or their pet that has ridden in a car, or anyone whom has used the letter "B' in any verbal or written communications WE can get you 50X, 100X, 500X, or more from him and his local, sate, and federally required insurance. We won't get paid unless you do. And we expect to get paid to cover air time."

 

Before TV, at least they would dress up a couple of old Indians and have a cowboy doing rope tricks.

 

Just remember, the next time some scandal about car manufacturers, politicians, even churches breaks out, listen for how many say "Oh, a respected citizen would never do that. I don't believe it."