Why do you think NASCAR has declined?

[Restorer32]

Nascar no longer races. They negotiate. I'm not totally convinced Nascar races are not scripted like pro wrestling.

[John_S_in_Penna]

9 hours ago, Mike36 said:

...you do know why Mercury and Oldsmobile are not competing, right?

  

Hmm, I never heard!

Actually, the idea of the internet writer who made that point

was, I believe, to indicate how uniform the situation had become,

with only 3 makes competing--and with uniformity of cars, that there

was little reason for fans to root for their favorite makes any more.

 

Did Mercury and Oldsmobile drop out BEFORE those makes were discontinued,

or only because of the automakers' bad financial conditions circa 2008?

 

Edited March 27, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

No Brainer from where I'm sitting. Them Moonshiners just can't put a car together and compete like they did in the old days. The local good old boys are priced out so there family member don't show up to root them on. And yes, Totally agree that watching them go in circles nowadays is BORING. Dandy Dave!  

[Vila]

I go to 410 sprint car races every Friday night during the racing season.  The races are normally exciting on every lap from start of the race through the 25th or 30th lap depending on the length off the race.

 

Then look at NASCAR.  First, the races are to long.  Second, you can skip watching the race until the last 10 laps and you never missed anything.

[Restorer32]

Every year at Indy you see at least one rookie who obviously bought his way into the race. Tell me how an 18 year old can possibly have "come up thru the ranks" by gaining experience? I suspect the same is true of NASCAR. I  always wondered if the owners have to carry and pay for worker's comp insurance on their drivers (employees?). How much does the cost of insurance affect NASCAR and its rules.

[46 woodie]

I think that it's a combination of things. First the age group that grew up with NASCAR during the '60s thru the early '20s aren't around any more. We all grew up with mega HP cars and many of us street raced them. Just like the Indy series, at one time ordinary people, could and did, build cars that could compete. Now a day's it takes millions just to fund a team. In this economy, people can't relate to this. Over saturation is another cause. I think there are something like 33 NASCAR races thru out the country. If you can't see one on a Sunday, there will be another next week, who cares. Yes, the entry of Toyota probably took it's toll. I know one guy that was an avid fan that simply stopped watching NASCAR after they let them compete. I do remember at one time it was impossible to get tickets to Indy or Daytona.  I called in the '70s and was told that there was a waiting list. A couple of years ago my wife wanted to surprise me with a retirement gift and called Daytona to inquire about tickets and was able to purchase tickets that were right across from the pits and they didn't cost an arm and a leg. Also, kids today would rather look at Hondas and VWs scrapping the ground with the rear tires splayed out at a 45 degree angle.

[poci1957]

As a young teenager in the early 1980s I was practically obsessed with NASCAR.  In 1981-88 Chevy/Pontiac/Buick/Olds/Ford and Dodge were all were represented to some degree.  Most of the great drivers from the 1960s and 1970s were still there along with a new generation and that variety of cars and drivers captured my interest, plus I understood the championship points system.

 

By the early 1990s every race was on TV and popularity was booming, but where was I?  Sunday was my only full day off and I was longer willing or able to devote 4 hours or more to watching a race (and the grating commercials).  I just lost interest, plus I needed Sundays to work on my old cars.  At that time IndyCar had begun a terrible decline with lookalike cars and drivers and I had already abandoned it first, then by the 2000s when I tried to watch again NASCAR also had lookalike cars and drivers.  I was a rabid fan in my youth and don't think I will be back because I just won't spare the time, Todd C        

 

 

[joe_padavano]

15 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

And with 29 postings in 3 hours, anyone can see how popular

this topic is with our car buffs!

 

Actually, I think it shows that griping about NASCAR is really what's popular with this crowd... 

[JACK M]

17 hours ago, cheezestaak2000 said:

 in the past, the lower series were the same cars, only with v6 engines, and later, since they became so popular, the truck races were added. maybe it's time for them to add a "heritage series" . limit them to pre-1975 body styles, and maybe 300 cubic inch engines. i'd pay to see that, dover is only 20 miles away

 

Cheez and others.

I am quite sure that there will be a local dirt track within commuting distance from where ever you are.

Make sure that they have a Sportsman of Hobby Stock type of class.

While a lot of people look down their noses at those greasy loud punks they offer great Saturday evenings entertainment. And not all that expensive to watch.

Grab a cold one and watch a local race. When the beer is gone you can look at the bottom of your cup and see what you have been breathing.

REALLY FUN STUFF !!!!

[Hudsy Wudsy]

I sort of lost my taste for Nascar after reading in several places that the only thing truly legendary about it is the totally pervasive cheating. Also, the lack of Hudson Hornets...

[Brass is Best]

The real decline of the sport can be traced to a certain commentator yelling "Boogity Boogity Boogity" at the start of each race and periodically on restarts.

[Brass is Best]

4 minutes ago, Hudsy Wudsy said:

I sort of lost my taste for Nascar after reading in several places that the only thing truly legendary about it is the totally pervasive cheating. Also, the lack of Hudson Hornets...

There is an old saying at Nascar races.The first rule of stock car racing is to cheat on 5 rules and let the tech inspectors catch you on 3 of them.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

I don't recall much in the way of details on the matter, but I do remember seeing a show on TV about Nascar in which they mentioned that one team was caught racing a Firebird (I think) that was seven eighths the size of a normal model. To me, that was just appalling.

[Guest]

...and remember, racecar spelled backwards is....... racecar. 

[F&J]

37 minutes ago, Hudsy Wudsy said:

I don't recall much in the way of details on the matter, but I do remember seeing a show on TV about Nascar in which they mentioned that one team was caught racing a Firebird (I think) that was seven eighths the size of a normal model. To me, that was just appalling.

 

 

 

Close, but not a Firebird.  That was the legendary Smokey Yunick, and the car was a 7/8 scale Chevelle, 66 or 67.  He was always stretching the rules.  One thing he did before, was to smooth out the underside of the car for better airflow.  He got away with it temporarily as there was nothing in the Nascar rules that said he could not do that.

 

he also put a little upturned lip above the back glass to act as a subtle spoiler, and when someone contested it, they took the roof template checking tool to the parking lot, it did not quite match a new car they tested it on. 

 

another modification that was contested was to run a monstrous, huge ID gas line from tank to engine.  The rules never said he couldn't, so he did, to gain more fuel capacity.

 

 

Smokey also was there during the Hudson Hornet days.  He was using a trash pump to pump a slurry mix of abrasive and water through the ports in manifold and valve areas to enlarge them, but leaving a stock "cast look".  he,he

 

 

"There is no way to be competitive without stretching the rules.."  That was said many times back in the day.

 

 

Smokey Yunick

Mechanic

Henry "Smokey" Yunick was an American mechanic and car designer associated with motorsports. Yunick was deeply involved in the early years of NASCAR, and he is probably most associated with that racing genre. He participated as a racer, designer, and held other jobs related to the sport, but was best known as a mechanic, builder, and crew chief.

[jrbartlett]

Several factors.

1) The goofy "chase" points system. I recently looked up on a website the "real" champions if the chase system had never come along. The results were often different than those produced by the Chase. Apparently I'm not the only one who dislikes it. 

2) Both NASCAR and Indy cars suffer from hyper-speeds that put a premium on drafting and thus cluster the cars together. I remember the 1960s and 1970s as a great era of racing, even though speeds were far lower.

3) The "yellow flag let's start over from scratch" racing. There's no incentive for a superior driver and car to try to establish dominance, as a big lead with only get erased when the next mishap occurs. Indy formerly used a timing system that maintained spacing throughout a caution.

4) The generic "cars" of today. It was fun watching real manufacturers go against each other back in the day.      

 

As a result of factors 2 and 3, races now really are just endurance runs until the last few laps kick in. And then, the winner is whoever gets luckiest in terms of which drivers are around/behind them in the draft, and whether they help each other out. A "really strong car" is one that finishes 20 feet in front of the pack at the end.  

 

[Hudsy Wudsy]

F&J, thanks for all of that detail about Smokey Yunick. That business of force eroding out the ports is hilarious. What a resourceful guy.

[avgwarhawk]

23 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

I've been reading various opinions on the internet,

and wondered what any race fans think:

WHY HAS NASCAR DECLINED SO NOTICEABLY IN RECENT YEARS?

 

Tracks are removing up to a third of their seats;

television viewership has declined by almost half;

some sponsors are finding it no longer worthwhile;

attendance is down so much that NASCAR doesn't even quote attendance any more.

 

Several opinions have been put forth:

Younger men have less interest in cars and speed, and therefore in NASCAR;

The sport got too big and haughty--it's no longer local guys with truly stock cars,

     but millionaires who arrive in helicopters and flashy motorhomes;

The rules keep changing;

The sport is boring, with 4-hour races and the cars being more uniform today;  etc.

 

I never followed NASCAR--it's especially popular in rural Southeastern U. S.--

but when I read about 1950's races in truly stock cars, THAT sounds more interesting.

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

Stock car/NASCAR ended for me about 30 years ago when it really was stock cars.  Win on Sunday and sell them on Monday.  By and large, it is a very expensive ticket to attend a 4 hour roundy round of same cars with same everything.    

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, F&J said:

"There is no way to be competitive without stretching the rules.."  That was said many times back in the day.

 

So cheating was endemic even in the heydays?

I wonder whether they cleaned it up, or whether cheating still persists.  (I haven't followed NASCAR.)

Baseball has occasional cheaters, but they are often caught and looked down on.

I can see how having fair rules, and playing by them, would make the race more interesting,

     even if a dishonest driver didn't get his illegitimate win.

 

Edited March 27, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Akstraw]

"Pigs Get Fat. Hogs get Slaughtered"

 

I think NASCAR got greedy, adding more tracks, more dates, more seats, and expensive tickets while the economy was going the other way.  And, as some have said above, got less entertaining to boot.  At some point, the cost exceeds the entertainment value, and people just move on.  There was an interesting article in Bloomberg Business Week a couple months ago about whether the NFL was getting too big and greedy, and headed for a decline as well.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Akstraw
spelling correction (see edit history)

[Brass is Best]

In the early 1990's Bill Elliot was always getting better fuel mileage then everybody else. Week after week he would stay out and run more laps. Finally Nascar got fed up with it and took his car apart. They found nothing. So they took it apart again. The inspector removed the fuel cell and started the car. Then he went out and drove it around the speedway for several laps. Bill's crew had hidden a fuel tank in the frame rail.

[joe_padavano]

46 minutes ago, Brass is Best said:

In the early 1990's Bill Elliot was always getting better fuel mileage then everybody else. Week after week he would stay out and run more laps. Finally Nascar got fed up with it and took his car apart. They found nothing. So they took it apart again. The inspector removed the fuel cell and started the car. Then he went out and drove it around the speedway for several laps. Bill's crew had hidden a fuel tank in the frame rail.

 

Don't know if that's true or not, but exactly the same story was told about Smokey Yunick and a certain Chevelle stock car in the 1960s, so I have my doubts about either one. 

[Larry Schramm]

My wife and I went to all of the races at Talledega in the early 80's when we lived about 50 miles from the track.  It was during the time that no one had won Talladega twice.  All of the team and drivers were aiming for the crown as the first to win Talladega a second time.  Great time with I felt competition between cars and teams.

 

IMHO, the money priority took over and changed the tenor of the races/ sport like most things in todays society.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Paul Dobbin]

 

I have a real NASCAR story for old car guys. 

About 10 years ago we went on a AACA Tour in Burlington NC with our 1934 Ford.

On the way home we detoured to the Blue Ridge Parkway in our motor home towing the 34 Ford.  Hearing a bad noise in the front end of the motor home, left the Parkway for Marion NC where there was a Bob Johnson RV Center (NASCAR sponsor) where we discovered a broken front rotor.  Parts were ordered and we would be there a few days.

We unloaded the 34 Ford and toured the area for few days while staying in the RV Center campground.  We took in a local car show, got to ride in a 1918 Cadillac Roadster belonging to a guy we met in a gas station.

One day on returning to the campground a real nice white haired man came over to share stories of 34 ford ownership.  (It happens less now than it used to).  One of the stories was that he remembered racing those cars in his youth.

After he talked for awhile, he asked if I had seen his car in the RV Center showroom?

He said "it's the car I won the 1961 Daytona 500 with?  Then he introduced himself as Marvin Panch. 

 

It was a 1960 Pontiac and it was really a stock car!  We went to see it then.

It had all its glass, bumpers, interior, side trim and everything except chrome wheel covers.  The upper half of the front passenger seat and the full back seat were removed and it had a roll bar an seat belts, but it was really a Pontiac.

I think I would like that kind of stock car racing, but I was to young then.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Paul Dobbin (see edit history)

[Guest]

Now THAT is a great looking race car! 

[1937hd45]

Jimmy Johnson winning killed it for me, but I still turn the race on Sunday. I'm good for the National Anthem, flyover, and the first ten or so laps, then work on a car project, or list junk on eBay. Check the race, make another cup of coffee, repeat, maybe catch the wreck and restart 10 laps from the end (Why does this have to happen in every race?) Jimmy Johnson wins!!!!!!!!!! Well at least I didn't sit there and loose a Sunday afternoon. Bob

[Hudsy Wudsy]

It's been many years, but I recall that Pontiac's prestige benefitted greatly from it's stock car's performance in the early sixties.

A lot of people talked about 421s, wide tracks, Grand Prixes and race wins.

[Brass is Best]

The single biggest change ever in the history of the sport was the loss of Dale Earnhardt. When Dale died an era and style of racing ended. I don't think any of todays drivers would be able to cope with the Black number 3 car in their mirror. I still miss Mr. Earnhardt.

 

By the way the photo of the Wrangler car was taken the time Dale climbed halfway out of his car and cleaned his windshield on a caution lap. Not sure anybody would try that today.

[Uncle_Buck]

21 hours ago, Brass is Best said:

The real decline of the sport can be traced to a certain commentator yelling "Boogity Boogity Boogity" at the start of each race and periodically on restarts.

 

The older of the Fox broadcast brothers should know better than to trivialize the 'sport' with this trite and annoying saying.  Moreover, the network should just stop it.  

 

The younger brother and former team owner, caught 'cooking' race fuel, a NASCAR rules infraction of the highest order - out and out cheating not just bending the rules, then later attempting to fix the points outcome of a race for a chase berth continues to prattle on.  Why ?  Allowing a team owner (at the time) to be part of the broadcast team, in my opinion, is a serious conflict of interest to say nothing of being a cheat and low life who never took responsibility for his transgressions.  Jeff Gordon is a team owner, yet they removed the competent and fair Larry McReynolds from the broadcast booth to make room for Jeff.

 

To be fair, Jeff Gordon has done a good job in the booth, but the conflict is still there.  It's the other 2 stooges I can't get past ...   

Edited March 28, 2017 by Uncle_Buck (see edit history)

[dalef62]

NASCAR has got boring.  I agree with all the comments about STOCK cars and I think they need to get back to that.  I think that would lower the speeds (no need for restrictor plates) and make it more competitive also. 

One thing I would like to see is to stop the yellow flag pit stops completely.  In my opinion, yellow flag stops drag out the yellow flag laps (pits closed, then lead cars pit, then lap down cars pit then several laps just to line everyone up).  Clean up the track and get back to green flag racing as fast as possible.  Make them do all pit stops under green flag racing.  If you have damage you could go to the pits but couldn't work on the car till the green flag drops.

Also, I don't like the caution after this new segment racing, keep making the race longer time wise and less and less people will watch it.

I record the race and buzz though it in about one hour, fast forwarding through lap after lap of roundy round, and watch the first ten laps or so, the wrecks, and the last ten laps or so.     

[capngrog]

Here's another reason why NASCAR is declining in popularity:  Bill France Jr.'s hatred of Southern culture as exemplified by his attempts to ban the private showing of the "Rebel Flag" at NASCAR events.  The roots of NASCAR are in the South, and NASCAR has historically embraced the South and Southern Culture, where many of its most avid fans reside.  While a symbol of hate to some, many Southerners consider the "Rebel Flag" (in reality the Battle Flag of the Confederacy flown by General Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia) to symbolize resistance to the brutal rape of the South by the victorious north during the so-called era of Reconstruction.  Although some American vessels (owned primarily by New Englanders) participated in the slave trade, most slave vessels exporting slaves to the United States flew English, Dutch and Portuguese flags.  Most countries during the mid nineteenth century sullied their hands by participation in the slave trade to one degree or another.  As an aside, human slavery is one of the worst aspects of humanity, and the operation of slave ships was, in turn, the worst and most evil aspect of slavery (in my opinion).

 

With all that said, Bill France Jr. is well within his rights in his attempts to separate NASCAR from a symbol of Southern Culture, and perhaps he is right to do so; however, I believe that his actions are part of the decline in the popularity of NASCAR.

 

As a Son of the South, I'm deeply disturbed by the fact that most (not all) of the slaves in the U.S. were owned by Southerners.  While I'm proud of my Southern Heritage, I am glad that the North prevailed in the Civil War.  Had it been otherwise, the world would not have had the United States of America as a beacon of freedom and a model for governments around the world. 

 

Just my opinion ...

 

Cheers,

Grog

[Hudsy Wudsy]

I'm sorry, but the majority of Americans see the rebel flag as being just as seditious today as then. The sight of it really is offensive to many people. But, you know that. You see, your remarks about who was responsible for slavery (the slave traders, not the slave buyers) are perfect examples of exactly what causes elevated and heated rhetoric and leads the moderators to have to close down otherwise enjoyable and meaningful discussions on these forums. Please avoid the politics, and, especially the politics of one hundred fifty years ago.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

Whatever flags or fervor are in the parking lots,

it seems like there's less of it at NASCAR.

Imagine actually tearing down entire grandstands

seating 40,000 or 50,000--reducing capacity from

150,000 to 100,000, and even the remaining areas

have empty seats.

 

An example of popularity was given in one article:

At the Indianapolis 500 track, the Indy race drew

350,000 people, as I recall;  a later NASCAR race

drew only 50,000, noticeably less than it had previously.

A subsequent football game at the same place, between

two small colleges, was expected to draw 30,000!

Edited March 28, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Maybe those good old boys didn't understand what each other was saying. They even have to dub the videos.

 

At 2:05 read about the same sailor. Read and listen.

 

[capngrog]

2 hours ago, Hudsy Wudsy said:

I'm sorry, but the majority of Americans see the rebel flag as being just as seditious today as then. The sight of it really is offensive to many people. But, you know that. You see, your remarks about who was responsible for slavery (the slave traders, not the slave buyers) are perfect examples of exactly what causes elevated rhetoric and leads the moderators to have to close down otherwise enjoyable and meaningful discussions on these forums. Please avoid the politics, and, especially the politics of one hundred fifty years ago.

 

The title of this thread is: "Why do you think NASCAR has declined?"  I took that title as an invitation to comment upon the subject.  I read the 70 posts to this thread that preceded mine, and agree with almost all of them as to the various factors that have resulted in the decline in the popularity of NASCAR; however, sometimes "the 800lb. gorilla in the room" needs to be addressed.  While it may not be a primary cause of the decline in NASCAR popularity, I believe that the intentional alienation of a large part of its fan base has been a significant factor in the decline. 

 

While one is invited to disagree with my opinions posted to this thread, I believe that the personal attack was unwarranted.  I merely attempted to provide a little perspective on why the "Rebel Flag" is not universally hated, even though some find its display to be offensive.  I did not single out any one group or nationality as being responsible for slavery, but I merely tried to point out that there was enough blame to go around.  Your comments above echo the current debate of "Who Is Responsible For the Epidemic of Drugs in the U.S.?"  Some say it's the dealers, and others say it's the users ... I say it's both.

 

Thank you for your response to my post.

 

Cheers from the South,

Grog

 

 

[Guest]

Like it or not, the stars & bars have always been a part of the southern racing theme.

Dukes of Hazzard anyone?

[60FlatTop]

We didn't see many rebel (confederate) flags around here until a bunch of people moved north to work at the glass plant in town. The only thing that flag meant to us was that it was associated with the biggest kid in the fourth grade. I didn't even know about all that other stuff until a year ago when the yellow journalists said something on TV. Yellow journalism is NOT connected with Asians, please.

 

And that image of a slave ship dropping anchor on the coast of Africa, then the Captain and crew hunting through the jungle don't sound quite right. I kind of think some of the neighbors has caught them already. You think?

 

I gotta admit, the Confederate flag never reflected any kind of supremacy to me. Hell, I am a descendant of undocumented Irish that managed not to be killed by Cromwell. That was when Britain made the whole Emerald Isle a plantation.

Bernie

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Well, to that I can only state my opinion that more folks would be repelled by the flags presence than attracted. Remember, they are trying to broaden the sports appeal.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[Guest]

But it's been present in NASCAR since inception. All politics aside, it is part of that southern identity. It's not like someone just introduced the stars & bars theme in the last couple of years. 

Just my humble opinion. I think this is a great thread, not looking to get it closed down.

[capngrog]

18 minutes ago, Hudsy Wudsy said:

Well, to that I can only state my opinion that more folks would be repelled off by the flags presence than attracted. Remember, they are trying to broaden the sports appeal.

 

While I personally disagree with your above-stated opinion, I believe that your opinion could prove, with time, to be the correct one. I believe that Bill France Jr.'s stance vis-à-vis the "Rebel Flag" has resulted in a near term net loss of fans of NASCAR; however, this may turn around with the passage of time.  A significant factor in the question of who is repelled or attracted to something (be it a thing or philosophy) is often a function of the populace polled.

 

Cheers,

Grog