Judging criteria at small unsanctioned shows

[benjamin j]

My wife and I went to a show that has an average of 400 cars in various classes. This show has been around for twenty plus years. We go for the food and to see friends but we register and stay for the trophies to be awarded.  There was a person we know at this show who has won best of show at good guys and also another big show. He did not even finish in the top three in his class at this show. I know this is no big deal to him or anyone else. We all have enough trophies and would like to see new people get the attention but what goes through the mind of a judge? They had experience judging and a list of criteria so how can they be so far off from the program?    

[alsancle]

Local shows are a free for all and you can expect anything and everything to happen.   I'll always remember as a boy going to a show with a friend and seeing a late 50s coachbuilt Rolls Royce, one of 3 or 4 built that had been restored by a knowledgeable well know collector.  The guy brought it to the show for fun but made the mistake of letting them judge it.  This was a Pebble Beach quality car and they awarded him a 3rd in class behind a 61 Buick convertible and a Studebaker.  Both of which were cruise night level restorations.

 

Best to just enter the cars for display. 

[Matt Harwood]

It also depends on the car and the judging standards. It's hard to judge a modified car--the shiniest car with the most chrome stuff usually wins. How else do you judge a modified car, since taste is subjective? With unmodified cars, you judge by how close it is to factory specifications, which is [relatively] straightforward. We run the annual Stan Hywet show in Akron which attracts about 450 cars and they're all supposed to be unmodified. We use a judging system similar to the AACA's and the goal is authenticity followed by quality. We inevitably have modified cars slip in. Two years ago, a guy with a pearl white 1969 Camaro with ghost flames, an LS1 engine, and a totally custom engine had his car judged and scored like 42 points out of 100. He lost his friggin' mind! "How dare you! My car wins best of show everywhere it goes! It won at the Goodguys in Columbus, blah, blah, blah."

 

Our head judge pointed out the score sheet. "Wrong engine, wrong color, wrong wheels, wrong interior... shall I go on, sir?" It was surely well built and had lots of shiny stuff, but it was at the wrong show. This guy incorrectly assumed that simply spending the most money would guarantee him the trophy at any event, regardless of judging criteria.

 

I agree with AJ that many local shows are usually a group of friends awarding themselves trophies. The criteria are often vague or undefined. Shiny car owned by your buddy's cousin wins. Craftsmanship and/or originality are usually a distant second.

[Phillip Cole]

Your statement, "What goes through the mind of a judge?", answers your criteria question. If there is no predetermined criteria for judging, the results are whatever the "judge" favors. If results are not important, one just goes and enjoys. If results are important, one learns the "rules" and prepares. Then, hopefully, enjoys...

 

Edited September 6, 2016 by Phillip Cole (see edit history)

[kevin1221]

Local shows can follow any judging format,and many times they are unpredictable.

 

When I had just completed my 1966 Mustang restoration, I went to a local show sponsored by the local AACA club. The car did not even score a top 3 in the class. The cars that won in my class all had after market wheels and much chrome added. 

 

The following week I took the car to a Mustang Club of America National show and won a Gold award in Concourse Driven class. Two weeks later, I won my First Junior Award at an AACA National. 

 

There was a local show that I loved to attend for the location of the event. This show was participant vote, and my car never won an award at this show in probably 8-10 showings.

 

I continued to go to local shows for the friendship and a nice day, but I never went thinking I would win anything. I had times that I did not place in a local show, even after I had won my Senior Grand National in AACA.

 

Go and have a good time. The people, cars, and location are what make for a good time. And if you win an award, consider that a plus!

 

Kevin

 

 

[Xander Wildeisen]

I will bite my tongue on this topic. But I do have a question, does any one else think that a restored car taken to a top notch level. (for today's standards) Is over restored? I know on the street rod /custom side to win top honors (not talking a show in the park) the level your car has to be, is off the chart. And when you build cars, and inspect cars. It makes it very hard to look at some thing and not compare it to the other cars you have see/built/restored. One of the painters that I have worked with does top notch paint work. Then I would have to go and inspect cars for a company that I did work for and grade the chrome, stainless, wheels, tires and paint and so on. The grading scale was A-E. If you build cars or restore them, and you have a finish on anything, that is as good as it gets. Anything short of that does not score as high. I have looked at very nice cars, and gave the owner a grade of B on the inspection for paint. And the owner gets mad. As he should, very nice paint. But if flawless gets an A. What does just short of flawless get? I have a friend that told me he was at a car show, and watched a guy who won second place. Get so pissed off, he threw the trophy right at his own windshield. It is crazy that people get so worked up over a plastic symbol of achievement. If you want my opinion. (you are going to get it) I think it would be great if some of these shows reached out to schools, and got a class room to attend the show. Not having kids of my own. I do not know the best age for the children. But they need to be of the age where every thing that comes out of their mouths is the brutal truth. Just imagine some guy in his car 500K+ being judged by twenty kids that think, not that his paint is flawless, but that the color looks funny. Or that his car looks strange or goofy. Talk about bringing you back to reality. It would also get kids involved in the car stuff, they would all ways remember the day they were asked to judge cars. And you might just plant a seed in a future car guy/gal. If the peoples choice award is the one to get. Kids choice would be the best of show in my opinion, you would never know what they would pick.        

[padgett]

I designed a platinum class for a major marque club. Main criteria was whether the car could have been built as shown. Had people get made at me when I pointed out at the safeguard speedometer was not available with the rally gauges or AC came with a 55A alternator and not a 3.90 gear  or an early 72 GTO should have a 140 mph speedo and not a 120 (late). Finally quit judging when I got tired of getting people mad when pointing out errors. Besides I have never had a stock car for long.

 

Couple of times had an informal contest to see how many people could identify the wrong things on my car.

[plymouthcranbrook]

i stopped going to our town's local once a year Sebang when it became plain to me that number one, it was and is a Chevy show . If you have to bring a Ford or Chrysler at least bring a Muscle car. If you don't and insist on participating you will be placed either on the far from the food and judges area on the main street or on one of the side streets away from the crowds. Modifieds are King and the ability to lay a lot of rubber in the driving up and down Main street is also very important. Furren cars, Old stock cars and anything somewhat odd, well you know. Run by a local car club and yes the trophies do seem to go to the same people each year.

[Matt Harwood]

15 minutes ago, padgett said:

I designed a platinum class for a major marque club. Main criteria was whether the car could have been built as shown. Had people get made at me when I pointed out at the safeguard speedometer was not available with the rally gauges or AC came with a 55A alternator and not a 3.90 gear  or an early 72 GTO should have a 140 mph speedo and not a 120 (late). Finally quit judging when I got tired of getting people mad when pointing out errors. Besides I have never had a stock car for long.

 

Couple of times had an informal contest to see how many people could identify the wrong things on my car.

 

This is a good point. You have a very specific knowledge set for a very specific group of cars. At a marque show like you describe, it's probably appropriate, but in a general show with multiple makes in a class like Ben describes, you could give other cars with which you were not as familiar an unfair advantage. Judges need to remember that their knowledge has limits, which is why, when I judge, I try to give each car the benefit of the doubt and judge it on its own merits, not against the other cars in the class. Yes, on Thursdays they used the orange Spuctor Spring, but this car was built on a Tuesday, which got a green spring. Splitting hairs down to this level doesn't help anyone except at the very highest levels of a marque show (which is where you were). At a general show? You should probably expect some pretty angry participants if you judge at that level. That's not fair and if a judge can't judge all cars equally, he should at least know that he knows too much to be impartial. That's why I don't judge 1941 Buicks, Corvettes, or 1920s Cadillacs except at marque events. My knowledge would put those specific cars at a disadvantage compared to other cars in the class where my knowledge isn't as comprehensive.

Does that make sense? Knowing too much can be as bad as knowing too little.

[nick8086]

i like people's choice awards.. The car guy votes for you.. They now how rare it is...

 

Most 20 years old do not know what a 1951 Henry J is.. or a sexton .. or a crosley ..

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2016 by nick8086 (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

What would happen if you took the last ten best of show winners from Pebble Beach and lined them up. Could you as a judge pick a best of show winner from the ten? If their condition was the same.

[JV Puleo]

A few years ago I found myself dragooned into judging the RRs at our biggest and oldest local show... strictly because I was the only person known to the organizers that actually had any RR experience and there were only 3 of them. One was a about a year old, entered by its owner. One was literally brand new, entered by the local RR dealer for whatever reason, though if he thought he'd find a buyer there he was badly mistaken. The thrid was a 20-25, about 1933 or 34. It was an older , probably amateur restoration that showed its age with a little flaking paint and worn leather. I gave the trophy to the 20-25, saying that neither of the other owners had done anything except demonstrate they could go to a RR dealer and buy a car. They hadn't even gone through the process with a restoration shop which, though I'll never do it, I can appreciate if the owner is involved in the project.

 

I'll add that I've never submitted a car to be judged and never will. to me, its meaningless and counterproductive. I've had enough competition in my business life and have no interest in extending it to my hobbies.

Edited September 7, 2016 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[nick8086]

3 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

What would happen if you took the last ten best of show winners from Pebble Beach and lined them up. Could you as a judge pick a best of show winner from the ten? If their condition was the same.

How would judge this;; He has 3 of the five..

[Xander Wildeisen]

That is cool. The bumper car bumper is a bit much. Do you have a side view?

[capngrog]

59 minutes ago, nick8086 said:

How would judge this;; He has 3 of the five..

 

I would subtract points for ugliness, but add more points for "coolness".  I don't care what number of how many built it was.  I have things that are one of one built(the only one in the world), but that by itself doesn't make them valuable.

 

Cheers,

Grog

[nick8086]

No one cares if it is valuable.   The old guys in the kaiser club would give  the new guy all the trophies.  It is all about getting new blood to collect this stuff..  If you do not back them up. finding parts they will walk..

I had so many people tell me why keep them.. I enjoy them.. Why not just take the money and run ..

I still want to enjoy the car..  

 

I just help a guy fix a part for his car.. He has money.. but he had the part fixed for free..

I like to see the cars at shows.. I worked with him for two weeks.. He should get it next week..

 

He did have two vendors work on it with no luck.... before this picture..

 

I had a car we drove 120 miles  just to get the over drive  worked on .. He has be gone 10 years now..

Where to I get this kind of help today.. He charged us 10.00

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2016 by nick8086 (see edit history)

[John348]

There is criteria for judging at local shows?

[nick8086]

50 minutes ago, John348 said:

There is criteria for judging at local shows?

I have a grasshopper on my frame . I have not removed it .. It is my lucky rabbit foot..

 

I have not detailed my engine compartment . It is stock.. 

 

Because it is not for sale..  i posted the old one.. I

Edited September 7, 2016 by nick8086 (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

11 hours ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

 It is crazy that people get so worked up over a plastic symbol of achievement. 

 

True!  Today's trophies are usually made of plastic, with bases that are

particle board covered in vinyl.  Maybe there's a little shiny metal thrown in.

Is this something to strive for, to spend tens of thousands of dollars in hope of achieving?

 

I completely forget about awards, and spend my time at shows

sharing my car with the public, explaining it to onlookers, and talking to

other car owners about their cars and learning from them.

In this way, I gradually expand my circle of friends in the hobby--

and shows then become much more enriching.  

 

It has been said, and wisely, that the CAR is the trophy!

Edited September 7, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

I agree with what you have said John_S_in_Penna. I have been asked by people if I think this is a hobby, or an industry? If I work on my cars, Then I am doing what I enjoy, my hobby. If I am working on a customers car, then I am part of the restoration/street rod/custom car/after market/car show industry. To have fun, enjoy, share, talk about the hobby is easy. The industry side is tough, a lot tougher then it needs to be. Just like with taking pills, it is the side effects that do the most harm.

[captndan]

Who you are and where you are.  I went to look at a Model A in a small out of the way town.  The owner had died and the car was in a garage and the family was proud of Daddy's car.   In my estimation the car was about 40% and worth less than half of what they were asking.  The garage also had many trophy's the owner had won.  I kinda felt sorry for the family.  

[Frantz]

I like the one local show here where they let each sponsor choose a winner, and there are LOTS of sponsors. Each person will have their own criteria. If I'm judging such an event I'll pick the most original orphan car, with a preference for Rambler. I'll pass a few nice Hemi's and pre war classics (just kidding, they don't show up too much), to pick a 232 Rambler Classic!

Even when there are criteria, one judge or team can miss major deductions and the next one catch em. Or you could be the only car in your class and have enough for a first one day, and next time with the same score end up with nothing if enough really clean cars show up. 380 with nothing around you is a First. Have a 400 point car show up and a 394 and a 388 point car show up and bam, what once was 1st now doesn't place. Still a nice vehicle!

[joe_padavano]

If the whole purpose of one's participation in the hobby is to collect trophies, it's a lot cheaper to just go out an buy yourself trophies than to restore a car.  I go to shows to meet people, to look at other cars, and to enjoy life.  I don't plan on winning anything.

 

Our club runs an All-GM show every year (amazingly, it is NOT overrun by Camaros). It's peer judged, which means it's a popularity contest, not "judging".  The results have about as much merit as a Twitter pole.  We still get one or two participants who bitch about the "judging".  Who cares?  The red convertible with the chrome will always win.  Get over it. Life's too short.

[46 woodie]

I went to a local show a few years ago and they allowed the Mayor of the town to pick "Best of Show". There were about 300 or so really nice cars and he made his choice. When they gave out the trophies they announced Best of Show, a 1910 Bugatti Speedster, there was a silence over the crowd. All of a sudden people started booing and yelling at the announcer. It seems the car he chose was a VW replica Bugatti kit car. It got real ugly, a lot of people said they would never return to this show. Threats were made to the committee and people had to be separated. The next year the judging system was completely changed. It took a couple of years to get the attendance back up to 300.

[46 woodie]

Another thing that I always laugh at at a car show is the guy that displays every trophy he has ever won around his car. This tells the judges two things. First, look how many trophies my car has won. Second, if I don't get a trophy at this show, the judges don't know what they are doing. I can't imaging boxing and carrying all those trophies to every show. Local shows are a "crapshoot". You want quality judging enter your car in an AACA, MARC, MAFCA, V-8 Club of America or other specialty club show and see how it does.

[joe_padavano]

20 minutes ago, 46 woodie said:

Another thing that I always laugh at at a car show is the guy that displays every trophy he has ever won around his car.

 

At least that's marginally better than the doll leaning against the side of the car or the dog peeing on the tire display...

[Xander Wildeisen]

I have never gotten in to judging, and this post has made me remember why. I am just a custom car builder, I will leave the judging to the pros.

[60FlatTop]

I got a trophy at an AACA regional a couple years ago. Well, I mean I got a letter and sent 15 bucks or something like that to get it mailed. It's on my dresser next to some clean socks and a couple of T shirts.

 

Years ago the historian from a local town asked me to help organize a car show. I decided just a good time with no judging and no trophies. Then I got a call from an entrant who told me he had to have a trophy and he always won one wherever he went. I thought deeply, then with concern, I asked if he would mind one with a guy holding a bowling ball. We didn't talk after that but his Corvette was at the show.

 

I recognize the personal achievement associated with trophies and respect that part of the hobby. I have some friends with those 100 point proper motor cars and have helped get some of the hardest points, but they really are for the standardized show, not the one where the mayor picks.

 

I did drive out of a meet behind one of my achiever friends who took second place. As his front tire passed the curb I thought the plaque was going to hit my fender!

 

Reminds me: Do you know the definition of a raving beauty? The girl who won second place in the beauty contest.

Bernie

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

... asked me to help organize a car show.

I decided just a good time with no judging and no trophies.

Then I got a call from an entrant who told me he had to have a trophy...

 

That brings up an interesting point for our AACA regional car shows:

Should we have judged shows, offering trophies--or not?

 

Are you more likely to attend a judged local show, hoping to earn a trophy?

Do you think others are more likely to attend for that reason?

Does offering trophies bring out more cars?

 

Our region's annual local show is a good one.  We'll see Franklins, Nashes,

Locomobiles, Crosleys--and of course many of the more usual type of antique vehicle.

It's for antiques only, not modified vehicles.  Our board tends to think that

offering judging in about 15 classes, and the attendant (cheap) trophies, brings out more cars;

but that entails quite a bit of extra work and expense for 200-300 cars on the field.

Is it worth it? 

Edited September 7, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[poci1957]

5 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

That brings up an interesting point for our AACA regional car shows:

Should we have judged shows, offering trophies--or not?

Are you more likely to attend a judged local show, hoping to earn a trophy?

Do you think others are more likely to attend for that reason?

Does offering trophies bring out more cars?

Our board tends to think that offering judging in about 15 classes, and the attendant (cheap) trophies, brings out more cars;

but that entails quite a bit of extra work and expense for 200-300 cars on the field.  Is it worth it? 

 

Our local AACA region just held our first show, we probably had 40 cars both stock and modified.  We had no trophies or judging (my strong preference) and no registration fee, just a free event for participants and spectators for about four hours on a Saturday afternoon and a good time was had by all.  As a participant or an organizer I have no interest in local trophies or judging and it is NOT worth the extra work IMO, I have other things to do without the added effort, expense or (especially) unnecessary drama, Todd C

[Matt Harwood]

I think avoiding judging is the best way to have a pleasant show. It makes for headaches, someone always goes home angry, and it creates all kinds of logistical nightmares for the show runners. For the past four years there's been a quality show that attracts all kinds of cars. It's on one of the greens of a golf course and all the proceeds go to charity. The guy who puts it on worked pretty hard to get good cars there and he runs a catering business nearby, so there's great food, too. The first three years were great, some of the best shows I've been to. Show up, drive whatever you want, park wherever you want, visit, look, have fun.

 

Last year they added judging. Now there were classes, restricted parking, have to stay by your car, and plenty of people pissed off. As soon as I showed up, they were asking me to be a judge because the knew I knew about cars. Dude, I didn't come to be a judge, I came to be a civilian for a change. No chance.

 

I'm not going this year. That show is dead to me. Judging and the relentless pursuit of crappy trophies took all the fun out of it. A dreadful mistake designed to please a handful of guys who are going to get pissed off anyway when they don't win.

[K8096]

I've been to the show you're talking about the past 2 years, and this year am bringing a car for the first time (no, I won't get it judged, not that I'd win anything anyway).  It's just down the road from where I live, so it's hard to pass up.  I know it's a bit of a haul for you.  I didn't know about the judging.   I wonder if they got sponsors for the trophies because the website says 100% of the $20 entry fee goes to the kidney foundation to honor his father.  If the show is anything like last year it should be pretty good.   It's supposed to be only 75 degrees Sunday, which is a relief after the hot/humid summer we've had.   I just ignore the trophy pass out at the end.   I guarantee it's the muscle car/modified car crowd that pushed for trophies, not the pre war car owners.        

[Xander Wildeisen]

When I was in the Hudson club years ago, they would give out awards for the oldest driver, the youngest driver, oldest car, newest car, hard luck story, greatest distance traveled and so on. They never judged cars against each other. Not sure if that is still done? I would think, nice setting, good food, beer/wine, no burn outs, no trophies, no entry fees, open to any car, donations helping Vets and kids would be a good show every time. 

[Matt Harwood]

25 minutes ago, K8096 said:

I've been to the show you're talking about the past 2 years, and this year am bringing a car for the first time (no, I won't get it judged, not that I'd win anything anyway).  It's just down the road from where I live, so it's hard to pass up.  I know it's a bit of a haul for you.  I didn't know about the judging.   I wonder if they got sponsors for the trophies because the website says 100% of the $20 entry fee goes to the kidney foundation to honor his father.  If the show is anything like last year it should be pretty good.   It's supposed to be only 75 degrees Sunday, which is a relief after the hot/humid summer we've had.   I just ignore the trophy pass out at the end.   I guarantee it's the muscle car/modified car crowd that pushed for trophies, not the pre war car owners.        

 

OK, maybe I'll come with one of my boys--it'd be nice to meet you there. I'll bring something ridiculous, like:

 

 or  or 

 

Or maybe I'll take it seriously and bring the '41 Buick limo or this (which I just acquired yesterday):

 

[Annie G]

A month or so ago, I went to a local car show with my Modified pickup.  Another member had his fully restored Concourse Studebaker with (I believe) his Senior Award.  While my pickup won in my class, he came in 2nd place to a "lacking" Firebird!!!  Unreal!  his car was IMHO Best in Show, but the judge thought otherwise.  what was his criteria?!  Didn't know what he was looking it?  didn't look at all of the cars.  Who knows.

 

the only thing that really bothers me at local shows is when people show up with brand new Mustangs and Camaros and get a trophy.  And my pickup goes home empty handed.  

 

The Burb doesn't go to local shows unless it's an AACA Chapter show for HPOF.

[61polara]

Many years ago I got tired of local shows charging me entry fees to show my car, let the public in free and donate the proceeds to some organization.  Roadmaster57 and I were asked to put together a local show.  I outlined a few rules for this new show.  There will be no judging.  Your car is your trophy.  There will be no registration fee for pre-registered cars.  Funds would be solicited from the Downtown Merchants Association which would be used to give each entrant ten "Down Town Dollars" to spend at any merchant of their choice on Main Street.  We had 150 cars at the first show and it continued to grow.  We would bring in special display cars for the plaza in front of the court house.  In the second year, Past AACA President Sharon Lee and her husband Lenard brought in a car early.  I asked them to walk with me for a few blocks and then pulled open the garage door to reveal a '48 Tucker.  "Jump in back and ride with me to the court house!"

 

After several years the merchants association decided they should make money on the show because people love to pay to show their car.  They started charging $25 a car for the show and discontinue the "dollars" for the car owners.  I've never been back to the show.

[John_S_in_Penna]

You can see from this picture the extra work

entailed by judging and giving out trophies.

At least 3 trophies in each class (4 in the larger classes).

And every car in that particular year's "feature class" gets a 

trophy as a memento and thanks.

 

One way I see to improve:  Give the 20 to 50 feature-class cars

something small and high-quality, and forget trophies altogether.

I don't think trophies should be necessary, because to me,

seeing the CARS and talking to people is what the event is all about!

 

 

Edited September 8, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

There is a ton of old automotive advertising and literature, and most of it has very little value, and is not really collected by a lot of people. Some of that stuff framed,would be better then a plastic trophy. And you could hang it on the wall, and it would look nice in a shop or garage. No matter what car was pictured in the ad. You see a lot of car clubs make their own awards, that can get interesting. I know people who save the trophies, and then pop off the brass tags, and then give them to coaches of kids sports teams in the area. Not sure what the trophies cost, but it can not be cheap. A plaque you could hang on the wall. One good thing about trophies, if you are in to spiders, in the right light you can see all of the cob webs spun across the tops of all of them. There is a good idea for a post, the dustiest trophy picture.  

[padgett]

Framing would probably cost more than the momento. I often used my old trophies with new plaques for rallys (only three trophies).

 

Guess part of my cynicism was seeing the platinum class just used to flip cars.

[benjamin j]

Great to hear all of your comments as usual you guys have tons of wisdom. I am a member of two national organizations that give out trophies. MECA and DB drag they are car audio organizations and MECA has judging on install quality and car quality as well as your sound level and sound quality.

Judges are trained very well before they are allowed to judge which takes out most of the complaints by members. After a year or two you have way more trophies than you want so we ask that our trophies go to new people. So the guy that got fourth or fifth place gets to take home a trophy to show his wife and kids. This helps grow the sport and keeps new guys coming back.

The local car show I was at last weekend had a point system with all the criteria listed for the judges who were experienced judges BUT they were so far off on judging that everyone just got quite and looked confused when trophies were awarded.

DB drag is actually an international organization where we compete against every country and the Germans are very tough to beat. I have managed to take third in world competition a couple of times in my class which is the hardest class. I would like a first place trophy someday LOL.