1933 Studebaker

[wendling]

My 1933 Studebaker has been restored,everything with the brakes have been gone through,but are not good.The last thing that was done is the vacuum booster was sent off for inspecting and repair, now that it is re installed there is no change,before I give up maybe some one has a suggestion.The wedding that it is to be in is getting closer. Les

[auburnseeker]

I think we will need a little more information to help you?  Does it just not stop well?  Does it pull one way or another?  Do the brakes drag?  Is the car stock or does it have any drivetrain modifications? 

[benjamin j]

power brake booster on a 1933 Studebaker?   my guess is Camaro front clip and a small block chevy. the Camaros used a caliper that had very large bore thus the master cylinder had to have a large bore 11/4"  pedal ratio is also a common problem when customizing.

[C Carl]

Late '20s , early '30s cars were becoming more powerful , and speeds were creeping up. Brakes needed improving. Hydraulics were becoming more prevalent. Some of the many cars still using mechanical brakes employed vacuum boosters to amplify the effect of pedal pressure. No , Benjamin I have not heard of power hydraulics back then. But , look here , just because I have not heard of something................... a lot of things we regard as recent innovation were first developed many years earlier. (Hmmmmmmmmm , that would be a very interesting subject for another thread). But , Les , hey if you are working against an imminent deadline , along with the information you will get here , try to get local help if possible. Fair chance you can find someone here. Where are you ? As stated above , detailed specifics would be necessary at this time. Do you have experience driving old cars with mechanical brakes ? Always drive slowly , planning far ahead. Personally , I like well engineered mechanical brakes , particularly my rod actuated 1924 Cadillac brakes. They were rather good mechanicals for the era , quite large drums , and a very primitive "ABS". As I say , you would do well to get a local hands-on second opinion , considering time constraints and precious passengers. Good luck , and best wishes to the couple for matrimonial bliss ! - Carl

[JACK M]

I just went thru this. Pedal ratio and bore size of the M/C and caliper (wheel cylinder) all have to jive.

A smaller M/C bore will give better brakes (more pressure) if  there is enough pedal travel (ratio).

If you are working on a stock 33 Studebaker it may not have had very good brakes when it was new. Did they have boosters on them originally?

 

[poci1957]

Others will know for sure but I think a President may have had one originally, I think Pierce Arrow had an early vacuum power brake in 1933 and remember they were related at that time

[C Carl]

So did '33 Stude' have hydraulics ? When I was a little kid , my dad had a '33 Buick with mechanicals. It became a "tug" at the junkyard he sold it to after the vacuum booster went out. I can still vaguely remember it.  - Carl

[Grimy]

Don't know about Studebaker in 1933, but 1933-35 Pierces used a Stewart-Warner servo-type power brake (NOT vacuum) mounted on the transmission, and then returned to B-K vacuum boosters on 1936-38 (also used on Series 36 in 1927-28).  The S-W brake concept was also used in Rolls as a supplemental system from 1930s into the 1950s.

 

As an owner of a 1934 Pierce, I can tell you that the BIG problem with the S-W brakes is that the brake pedal does not drop as the shoes wear, so if one does not adjust the wheel brakes every 3,000 miles, you'll only know you need an adjustment when you slide thru a stop sign or traffic light--or into a car in front of you.  Needless to say, I do brake adjustments on a mileage schedule!  If you do happen to have S-W brakes, I can provide detailed adjustment instructions.

[trimacar]

The other fun thing about the 33-35 Pierce Stewart Warner system is that it relies on rotation of the driveshaft to actuate the brakes, so at very slow speeds there's a noticeable lag between pressing the pedal and actually stopping.

 

Perhaps if they were adjusted as mentioned above, this wouldn't happen, but I've recently driven a '34 and a '35 Pierce and they both did the same thing, and at low (just moving) speed you needed to have your hand on the emergency brake if stopping RIGHT NOW was important!

Edited August 11, 2016 by trimacar (see edit history)

[poci1957]

1 minute ago, trimacar said:

The other fun thing about the 33-35 Pierce Stewart Warner system is that it relies on movement of the car to actuate the brakes, so at very slow speeds there's a noticeable lag between pressing the pedal and actually stopping.

 

Perhaps if they were adjusted as mentioned above, this wouldn't happen, but I've recently driven a '34 and a '35 Pierce and they both did the same thing, and at low (just moving) speed you needed to have your hand on the emergency brake if stopping RIGHT NOW was important!

 

Yikes, this seems like a bit of a design flaw for one of America's most expensive cars at the time

[JACK M]

15 minutes ago, trimacar said:

The other fun thing about the 33-35 Pierce Stewart Warner system is that it relies on rotation of the driveshaft to actuate the brakes, so at very slow speeds there's a noticeable lag between pressing the pedal and actually stopping.

 

Perhaps if they were adjusted as mentioned above, this wouldn't happen, but I've recently driven a '34 and a '35 Pierce and they both did the same thing, and at low (just moving) speed you needed to have your hand on the emergency brake if stopping RIGHT NOW was important!

 

I had a Bentley once that did this same thing.

A real pain to parallel park, especially if on a hill.

[Grimy]

Yes, while parallel parking, one almost must use the hand brake--and I wish the hand brake were taller.  It takes almost a second for all the monkey motion in the clevises to take up.  On the other hand, the faster you go, the more braking boost you have.  Jump on the brakes at 40 and your passenger is in danger of going through the windshield!  Pierce had 342 sq in of swept areas in those days, half again as much as a Cadillac V-16.

[trimacar]

My '31 Pierce has mechanical brakes, but huge tool steel brake drums and over 16 linear feet of wide linings.  I have a friend who's great with early car mechanicals, and had him adjust them.  You can easily lock the wheels, and the brakes works great.

 

As mentioned, if you hit the brakes hard, be holding on!

 

The tool steel brake drums have to be ground if you wish to smooth them out, and if you lay a drum on the ground on the hub side and tap it with a hammer, it has the most beautiful bell ring to it!!

[Rusty_OToole]

Many possible problems with that type of brake system. Modern linings are harder than those used on mechanical systems and offer less friction. The shoes must be arced to the drum to make full contact. Everything must be adjusted to factory specs. Booster must be installed and adjusted properly and you must have full vacuum, I was fooled on this one once by an early fifties Chrysler New Yorker. It had been left sitting with the vacuum hose off and a mud dauber built a nest in the fitting. I didn't discover this until after having the booster rebuilt lol.

[intimeold]

http://www.oldcarsweekly.com/collector-cars/30s-cars/car_of_the_week_1933_studebaker_president_eight

 

Well Yes,  a Bendix power brake booster was available.

 

If all the mechanical/ hydraulic brake parts are functioning properly; I would certainly be looking at the booster, or whatever controls the booster.

Edited August 11, 2016 by intimeold (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

Wendling, you might get more response to your question if you go down to the Studebaker forum and ask your question there.

[wendling]

I am sorry, I didn't give enough information on my 33 Studebaker it has mechanical cabled brakes,tightening the cables isn't easy,if they only had a turn buckle system but the way it is,pulling them tight, and then trying to get the pin in is a challenge. Nothing has been changed sense the factory as I have had the car for 52 years and have got lot's  of information on it. A parts car has been a big help.Like I said the vacuum booster has been inspected and with some new parts although there isn't many parts. It would be helpful if someone could explain an adjustment on them ( that is the booster I haven't seen anything ). I haven't gave it a vacuum test,and maybe that could be the problem. The shoe tighteners are working fine as I have  tightened them,and then backed them off as they should be.

[nzcarnerd]

Have the brakes been set up correctly inside the drums? You haven't said which model Studebaker you have. If it has the three shoe Bendix brakes they require care in setting up. 

[wendling]

The Studebaker is a Regal 56-6 cylinder, there is just 2 shoes for each wheel. It has been quite some time sense I had the brakes done,and tomorrow I will inspect the shoes,and check things out maybe the cables are supposed to be tightened there. sending my web site for a picture.  http:/www.customfurniture.net/les-shell/

[John_Mereness]

My experience is people want to put "hard" modern style linings on - you need a soft lining - exactly what car had in it via 1933.  My brake guy screams they will only last 10K miles (I reply that should be just fine and then he mumbles and does it my way).  I can generally do 4 wheel lock up and throw you into the windshield.    You also have to arc the lining into the drum (ie lay the shoe in the drum and the the lining must fit beautifully into the drum verses hitting on limited surface area)  A few people still have arc machines.  I have seen people try to stop on an inch or two of area - not good.  Also, w/many 30's cars in general they are not joking in the manual when they tell you to adjust using a feeler gauge.    If drums have been turned down you may have to do some filing in the feeler gauge slot so that you can get accuracy.  And check to make sure you are not riding on an ridges in the drums.

[Rusty_OToole]

If the cables are anything like emergency brake cables they get stiff to operate when they get old. Maybe you need new cables. Now if someone could make teflon lined cables the way they do for motorcycles that would be great.

[Marty Roth]

Wendling, check the vacuum hose at both ends, but also check to ensure that it is not collapsing internally. This could be a double walled hose as was used on some other makes. My '34 Buick had a vacuum power brake system, and at one time shortly after I got the car, I found that the hose had a defect. Replacing the large hose made a dramatic difference.  

[Grimy]

+1 to Marty's comment.  You MUST use air/vacuum hose, not heater or fuel hose, both of which will collapse.  Last 1/2" (as I recall) I installed on a 1936 Pierce about 8 yrs ago was $4/ft, so price is an indication of what you're getting. 

[Buffalowed Bill]

As a Pierce Arrow and a period Studebaker owner, I think that I should speak to the subject. !933-35 PA used the mechanical brakes with mechanical brakes. The unfortunate braking dynamic with the PA was that the slower the car was traveling the less mechanical advantage there was from the assist and thus more peddle pressure was required. In a parade like situation some drivers just used the emergency brake at low speed. In 1936  PA, began using the more commonly used vacuum assisted mechanical braking system. The change was made when PA began using the trans mounted overdrive. It's addition left no room for the their unique Stewart-Warner system on the back of the transmission. This assist system was the same as Studebaker had adopted several years earlier. Studebaker PA used identical mechanical braking systems that Studebaker began using in 1928. PA did use a somewhat greater sweep area, because several hundred pounds of additional weight.

 

You still haven't explained why you are dissatisfied by your brakes performance. These are great brakes and when adjusted properly will lock up all four wheels! I suspect that your problem has the do with the mechanical braking portion and not the assist. You should be able to lock all four wheels even without the vacuum assist. Remember though, the mechanical braking system W/O the power assist will require a great deal more peddle pressure then you may be used to. As a test jack up all four corners of the car and support the car on jack stands. With an assistant to apply the brakes check to see if all four wheels are reacting the same to the foot pleasure. All four brakes must react identically as foot pressure is applied. The kind of lining material that you are using might be a problem. If the newer harder non-asbestos material was used braking may never be as good as you have come to expect.

[jpage]

This may be a stupid question and I'm not familiar with the brake system being talked about here, but how does a hyd brake booster work with mechanical brakes? I thought a mechanical system was just that, all mechanical with no hydraulics.

[wendling]

Buffalowed Bill- thanks for the help,I did find the fitting some what loose where it fastens to the manifold,and that part is normal now,but next I will spend more time with adjustments..

Jpage,I will let some one that can explain it better than me tell you,All I know about it,there is a vacuum can and if working right can give much power,the power must be much less than air brakes,several years ago large gas powered  trucks used vacuum brakes for the trailers.

[junkyardjeff]

I learned something new today as I did not know power brakes were available in the 30s.

[Guest]

Rolls Royce had servo assisted (power) brakes in 1923.

[JV Puleo]

I think Hispano-Suiza had them in 1920 or 21. The RR system was licensed from them.

[Rusty_OToole]

Railroad trains had vacuum power brakes in the mid 19th century, replaced by pressure power brakes because the vacuum ones weren't powerful enough. So the technology was available.

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

On 8/11/2016 at 0:03 PM, Grimy said:

Don't know about Studebaker in 1933, but 1933-35 Pierces used a Stewart-Warner servo-type power brake (NOT vacuum) mounted on the transmission, and then returned to B-K vacuum boosters on 1936-38 (also used on Series 36 in 1927-28).  The S-W brake concept was also used in Rolls as a supplemental system from 1930s into the 1950s.

 

As an owner of a 1934 Pierce, I can tell you that the BIG problem with the S-W brakes is that the brake pedal does not drop as the shoes wear, so if one does not adjust the wheel brakes every 3,000 miles, you'll only know you need an adjustment when you slide thru a stop sign or traffic light--or into a car in front of you.  Needless to say, I do brake adjustments on a mileage schedule!  If you do happen to have S-W brakes, I can provide detailed adjustment instructions.

I have occasion to drive (not own) a '39 Rolls and a '52 Bentley. They each have that type of braking . It takes some getting used to

[jpage]

Wendling...so you're saying that the booster was connected directly to the brake cables or rods and was activated by the brake pedal. The booster actually applied the brakes not the pedal itself as in a true mechanical system. That could clear it up.  Thanks

[ply33]

2 hours ago, jpage said:

Wendling...so you're saying that the booster was connected directly to the brake cables or rods and was activated by the brake pedal. The booster actually applied the brakes not the pedal itself as in a true mechanical system. That could clear it up.  Thanks

 

I haven't actually seen such a system, but was curious enough to look it up in my 1930's Dyke's Automotive Encyclopedia. At least one system described had a connection to the brake pedal and worked much like a more modern vacuum power assist on hydraulic brakes. Difference being that it helped pull on the rods or cables rather than help push on the master cylinder piston. It was setup so that if there was no vacuum then you just had non-power brakes, still mechanical of course.

[wendling]

Buffalowed Bill- thanks for the help,I did find the fitting some what loose where it fastens to the manifold,and that part is normal now,but next I will spend more time with adjustments..

Jpage,I will let some one that can explain it better than me tell you,All I know about it,there is a vacuum can and if working right can give much power,the power must

On 8/13/2016 at 0:25 PM, Rusty_OToole said:

Railroad trains had vacuum power brakes in the mid 19th century, replaced by pressure power brakes because the vacuum ones weren't powerful enough. So the technology was available.

be much less than air brakes,several years ago large gas powered  trucks used vacuum brakes for the trailers. This is the booster,at one time it definitely had power to tug on the cables,even at a slow speed,but something change and like I said it was sent off  for inspection and rebuilding to a well known power brake repair co.

[jpage]

That's one "Shell" of a pump!  Is that an original or repro?

[wendling]

Now I'm getting in to a diff.subject -the visible is a 1928 Boyal Dayton,original,and glass,I pump gas from a can setting beside it.( It is only a look a like gas it is anti-freeze,and won't start a fire.

[wendling]

On 8/11/2016 at 10:37 PM, Marty Roth said:

Wendling, check the vacuum hose at both ends, but also check to ensure that it is not collapsing internally. This could be a double walled hose as was used on some other makes. My '34 Buick had a vacuum power brake system, and at one time shortly after I got the car, I found that the hose had a defect. Replacing the large hose made a dramatic difference.  

Yes the vacuum line is in good shape,the line starts out from the manifold and is 3/8 steel for protection and about two ft. long as  it goes around the rear of the engine , the rubber hose at the end is only about 10 inches long.