1936 Packard Twelve Speedster 904080 Mecum Monterey 2016

[58L-Y8]

This poor Packard, what a terrible mish-mash of styling features: a narrow late 1920's boat-tail roadster mounted on a mid-1930's quasi-streamlined fully-filled out width chassis.  Industry styling had moved so dramatically beyond that late 1920's theme that mash-ups such as this rarely work visually.  The conflicting styling here is painful!

 

Dutch Darrin, for all this early design achievements, later happily took credit for styling successes for which his contributions were minimal, if much at all.   When presented this 'effort' likely saw it as another opportunity to enhance his growing legend...he should have given it more serious consideration.   Taking credit for such an obvious stylistically amateurish mish-mash did nothing but detract from his historic stature.

[md murray]

As it was explained to me Mr. Saunders has used some electrical components from Brockway trucks and the French-Canadian writing on them led everyone to jump to the conclusion that it was a Paris Darrin car and you get the idea... 

[alsancle]

There was no attempt to defraud anyone by the original builder.  I think as a period got rod it is pretty cool.  Would love to see the twin blowers put back on it.

[8E45E]

30 minutes ago, alsancle said:

There was no attempt to defraud anyone by the original builder.  

Definitely not!  

 

The original builder would have place 'Darrin' scripts on it if he was going to deceive someone.  There is no record of that being done.

 

Craig

[alsancle]

14 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

Definitely not!  

 

The original builder would have place 'Darrin' scripts on it if he was going to deceive someone.  There is no record of that being done.

 

Craig

He also would have destroyed the pictures of him lowering the body on to a v16 Marmon chassis.

[Paul Dobbin]

In that time period wealthy buyer were still odereing one off bodies from manufacturers.   Like most sustom car guys, not all are home runs int

he eyes of us Johnny come lately hobby/experts.   I feel the same way about many factory models.   Then again some custom cars are magnificent.

Does a custom car really need a pedigree?   We're not the Kennal Club.

[alsancle]

2 minutes ago, Paul Dobbin said:

In that time period wealthy buyer were still odereing one off bodies from manufacturers.   Like most sustom car guys, not all are home runs int

he eyes of us Johnny come lately hobby/experts.   I feel the same way about many factory models.   Then again some custom cars are magnificent.

Does a custom car really need a pedigree?   We're not the Kennal Club.

 

Only if you want one point something million bucks for it.

 

 

[roadster]

[alsancle]

Who is Steve Purdy?

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I think, from what I have read about this one, it was put together for fun by an enthusiast, not for fraud as these cars were nowhere near as pricey then as now.  We know for sure the build was not recent.  I don't get the fraud part.  Darrin connection seems disproven, just goes to show earlier articles are not always 100% truth. A lot was written about coachbuilding and other things related to the Classic era from say, 68 or 69 to the 80s, sometimes updated info makes some corrections after deeper research.  Looking forward to latest write up.  Period cars like this have their own interest as Kerry points out.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

Who is Steve Purdy?

I Ken only imagine.

[TTR]

So basically, this car is just another “Hot Rod”, nothing more, nothing less, right ?

[Pilgrim65]

Hot rod ,maybe ,but great looking car , has class ,not like some frankenstien creations I’ve Seen which ruined the original car completely.

[mike6024]

Detroit Editor at The Auto Channel

 

https://autoheritagefoundation.org/2021/07/16/automotive-heritage-foundation-bulletin-9-july-2021           

 

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[alsancle]

It will be interesting to see what he comes up with. 

[60FlatTop]

Hot Rod may be a bit over specifying. Basically it is some cast iron, some steel, a bit of aluminum, and even less rubber.

 

To make it really worthy one would have to hide that '31 Cocker Spaniel tail with a Buehrig style razor edge. Then it is a whole different story.

 

[TTR]

On 9/24/2021 at 6:20 AM, 58L-Y8 said:

This poor Packard, what a terrible mish-mash of styling features: a narrow late 1920's boat-tail roadster mounted on a mid-1930's quasi-streamlined fully-filled out width chassis.  Industry styling had moved so dramatically beyond that late 1920's theme that mash-ups such as this rarely work visually.  The conflicting styling here is painful!

I agree.

OTOH, there aren’t many “boat tail” style coach works designs I’ve ever found appealing.

Most look rather silly, or if I may, cartoonish/childish, especially ones with “skiff” type wooden bodies.

But then again, while many like “woody” type production cars (“Town & Country”, etc) I’ve always viewed their appearance as something like from depression era when perhaps steel was at premium and the wood frame constructions was just a low cost alternative.

 

6 hours ago, Pilgrim65 said:

… but great looking car , has class ,not like some frankenstien creations I’ve Seen which ruined the original car completely.

It has been said (I’m paraphrasing) “the greatness of appearance or beauty is in the eye of…”. so I respectfully refer to above comments.

 

Besides, which or how many “original” cars were “ruined”(?) when this was created and/or further modified (hot rodded) over the subsequent decades ?

[edinmass]

12 hours ago, alsancle said:

Who is Steve Purdy?

 

I asked several well known collectors today........they weren’t familiar with him. I looked up the organization, it’s a 501C3 charity that is supposed to promote automobile history. I have never heard of the organization until today. 

[K8096]

I think that Packard would be a good candidate for a Russo Steele auction.   

[edinmass]

8 hours ago, alsancle said:

It will be interesting to see what he comes up with. 

 

In the way of fact, or fiction? I don’t know a single serious automotive scholar that would put in an effort when so much public post war assembly and donor car information is posted. It’s my experience that correct, documented, Packard V-12 Customs and one offs don’t need help to tip the scales in the seven figure numbers. Looking at it with a critical eye............it’s obviously floor sweeping that were assembled into a mediocre back yard build. It probably took the well known restoration shop a lot of work to get it assembled so it actually looked like it was built as a singular package. If it were a great car, where is it’s CCCA history of judging? Or it’s participation at Pebble? Better yet...........any crazy good looking and unusual one off Packard would have been the property of the top collectors in the world. I haven’t ever seen the car at Mozart’s, Pyramids Collection,  Nethercutt Collection, ect, ect, ect. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[mike6024]

Steve Purdy is an editor with The Auto Channel, as well with the Automotive Heritage Foundation. I never heard of either, but would like to say that The Auto Channel apparently does reviews of new cars. Monthly online publication, like this one where the Ford F-150 EV is featured.

 

https://www.theautochannel.com/news/2021/05/19/1000390-official-close-up-advanced-electric-ford-f-150-amazing.html

 

DEARBORN, Mich., May 19, 2021 – The truck of the future is here. The F-150 Lightning is the smartest, most innovative truck Ford has ever built. From near instant torque to intelligent towing, seamless connectivity to software updates, plus power for your home, a power frunk and a digital screen that’s larger than any currently offered on a full-size truck – F-150 Lightning is a driving and ownership experience unlike any other.

F-150 Lightning will roll off the line next year at a new high-tech factory using sustainable manufacturing practices at Ford’s storied Rouge complex in Dearborn just outside Detroit.

 

https://cloud.3dissue.com/89166/89559/132405/P702/index.html?r=96

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[mike6024]

That's a lot of flat real estate between the rear fenders.

 

 

[58L-Y8]

Every mid-'30's boat-tail roadster 'creation' falls far short of the 1935-'36 Auburn 851/852 speedster for medium-sized cars. 

For large cars the size of this Packard, here is the ultimate standard:

 

Word of advice for those undertaking such a large boat-tail roadster re-body project: if you can't get it this right, don't do it!

[Cadillac Fan]

 

 

 

[alsancle]

It occurred to me that it looks great in black.   Video is interesting.  

[edinmass]

Guy in the video calls it a  "an outstanding design", I agree......I would rather be out standing on the side of the road than be seen in a fake car. Especially a poorly executed one. How about an opinion from someone who doesn't have any financial interest in it? Like we always say, where is the photo of it new, or pre war? Ain't got one? It's not real till you prove it is. No designer in the world would take credit for that thing....if they were in their right mind. That said, I'm sure it's a fun car to bang around town in. The video is too painful to watch. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Maybe we can end the conversation with the auction listing.......will make your head spin......we have proof it's real, and a fake. Fortunately  everyone is dead who can relate it in first person. Look at the auction venue........Why not RM? Gooding? See the description below......

 

 

• 30
• 2
• 108

MAIN ATTRACTIONS

• Color

  Black
•  

• VIN/Serial

  904080

 

HIGHLIGHTS

• According to America's Packard Museum, the coachwork on this car was designed and executed by the Dutch Darrin in Paris
• Restored by Harold Sliger with assistance from Dutch Darrin in the 1970s
• Featured in a 1988 issue of the AACA newsletter that displayed a certificate of authenticity and a list of unique components identified by Dutch Darrin
• The published letter of authentication states: I (Dutch Darrin) would like to authenticate the validity, and vicissitude, of Harold Sliger's, 1936 Packared Twelve: Fernandez & Darrin Speedster as being one of my creations.
• Recently restored by Fran Roxas with 3-years, 7,000 hours and $450,000 invested

For many years, the provenance of this automobile has been the subject of much research by historians and the curiosity of avid Packard enthusiasts. Differing opinions have been brought forth over several decades about this vehicle’s origins and early history. As the auction house, we will disclose the available information brought to our attention in an effort to provide potential buyers as much information as possible to assist in their decision making process to bid confidently at auction. Please note this 1936 Packard Twelve Gentleman’s Tailback Speedster is being offered by America’s Packard Museum in Dayton, Ohio and the following narrative has been provided by the museum’s historian.

 

This 1936 Packard Fernandez & Darrin Speedster is one of the most stunning Packards in existence; exquisitely designed, beautifully executed, and perfectly restored. It is a one-off, V-12 Packard sports car, and has recently completed a 3-year, 7,000 hour, restoration, at a cost in excess of $450,000. It is certainly one of the finest Classic Era motor cars, of any marque, ever built. Its jet-black finish is unblemished; its taupe ostrich-leather and Wilton wool interior is flawless; as is its interior and exterior brightwork; its instrumentation all works properly; it runs and drives as new.

According to America’s Packard Museum, this coachwork was designed and executed by the fabled Howard “Dutch” Darrin in Paris, in 1936, when he was in partnership with J. Fernandez, a wealthy banker and furniture manufacturer. It is one of a group of either five or six speedsters (history is a little vague on this point) which Darrin built on various chassis, including Packard, Duesenberg, Delage, and Buick (and perhaps another) in the 1936/1937 time frame, and shortly before Darrin shut down the Paris operation and returned to Hollywood, California in mid-1937. It is believed that the Buick example exists today and the Delage was spotted on national television with President Jimmy Carter riding in the car.

These particular speedsters were all produced by using a cache of Auburn Speedster “bodies-in-white” which Darrin had been able to acquire from the financially troubled Auburn Distributor in Paris, as a starting point.

This example is believed to have been originally commissioned by Parisian playboy Count Armand de La Rochefoucauld, Darrin’s polo-playing pal. Howard Darrin’s passion for polo was shared by La Rochefoucauld, who, though not having Darrin’s skill, was still an aficionado of the sport, and owned many of the ponies ridden by Darrin. It is reported that by early 1937 La Rochefoucauld owned not only a Fernandez & Darrin Town Car, executed on a Hispano-Suiza chassis, but the Packard Twelve Speedster as well.

This magnificent motor car, like many others, has acquired over the years a “Legend” in which it is claimed that a Mr. Dick Saunders, in upstate New York, built this piece of rolling art, “in his backyard” using a rope, a tree limb, a dis-used Auburn boattail body, and a Packard Twelve chassis and engine. Or maybe it was first on a Marmon chassis, either with or without a Marmon V-16 engine, depending on who is telling which version of the Legend. Or maybe the Packard Twelve was in the Marmon chassis. Or maybe the Marmon V-16 engine was in the Packard chassis.  

Documentation reveals that Mr. Saunders owned 116 Packards throughout his lifetime. He was one of the forefathers of Packard hot rodding and had created many different custom Packard Speedsters over the years. Mr. Saunders was in inveterate tinkerer, whole loved to play “mix and match” with various engines, chassis and bodies. It is documented that Mr. Saunders owned two or more Packard Speedsters fitted with custom Auburn bodies.

After Saunders’ death, his boattail was acquired from his estate by a Mr. Harold Sliger, from Illinois. Sliger was smart enough to seek out and find Mr. Darrin, for advice in restoring his car to its original glory. Mr. Darrin agreed to help Sliger, and advise him on what had to be both done and/or undone, or both, to restore the car to its original configuration. Sliger spent many nights on the telephone with Darrin and his son Patrick, consulting on these matters. When his trucking would take him to California, he would personally visit with both of them for the same purposes. Patrick recalls these visits and calls as he participated in them. Patrick recalls that his father told both him and Mr. Sliger that the car was his creation, in Paris.

As anyone who has ever attempted to address vague assertions and innuendo once they are in circulation knows, it is more difficult to gain a hearing with facts to set the record straight than it is to create doubt and cast aspersions. Nevertheless, the Packard Museum offers the following facts for your consideration to show that the 1936 Packard Twelve could only have been created by a master designer and craftsman of Dutch Darrin’s caliber rather than by an avid customizer whose specialty was mixing and matching parts from various makes and models in an effort to revive the great classics of the 1930s.

So how do we reconcile the conflicting beliefs and documents held by two parties of good faith in this dispute? We list the undisputed statements of fact from both sides to fully disclose all known information.

 

Statements of Fact Provided by America’s Packard Museum

1. The issue of authenticity was addressed and should have been laid to rest as a result of the research conducted by respected automotive historians Ed Blend and Robert Turnquist, with Dutch Darrin when he was still alive, and later published in the in the AACA magazine in Vol 52, No 4 (1988) article by Mr. Blend. 
2. In that article, and based upon extended interviews with Dutch Darrin himself, and others, Mr. Blend concludes, as follows: “With total restoration/reconstruction completed, it has been proved beyond doubt—Darrin’s number system, plus stamped and cast parts bearing his logo, and his personal attestment as well—that the car is authentic and of true heritage.”
3. Dutch Darrin wrote a letter of authentication in 1978 that states: “I would like to authenticate the validity, and vicissitude, of Harold Sliger’s, 1936 Packared Twelve: Fernandez & Darrin Boattail Speedster as being one of my creations.”
4. During one of their interviews, Mr. Darrin provided to Mr. Blend and Mr. Turnquist an extensive listing of particular Packard and Fernandez & Darrin parts and numbers which were among those used in the 1936 Speedster, and were still there.
5. It is undisputed that Patrick was a part of these discussions and that he witnessed the personally, and that his father, on several occasions either with Sliger or himself, spoke at length about it being “his” car.
6. If Mr. Darrin had not built this magnificent motor car, in Paris; if, indeed it had been cobbled together in somebody’s back yard in Upstate New York; if Darrin had no previous connection with it; how, then, would he have such a document?  
7. It is undisputed that Dutch Darrin bought five or six Auburn boattail bodies-in-white from the Paris Auburn Distributor during the throes of the Great Depression. One became a Duesenberg speedster, another a Packard Eight, a Buick, and a Delage. No one seems to know with certainty if a sixth car was purchased by Darrin, or, if so, what became of it.
8. It is undisputed that the 1936 Twelve Boattail contains features that are Darrin’s own styling cues such as: the stamped or cast “D” for Darrin on door hinges, bumper back bars and clamping devices; evidence of the European method of lead-filled body moldings with nailheads soldered in place in the tailback; several body alternations that would require the use of special sheet metal tooling; reverse bent 90 degree sheet metal that would be impossible to perform by hand and require a coach builder’s genius and tooling to accomplish; and also significantly the Darrin-patented “jiffy top” across the back of the seat
9. It is undisputed that according to Robert Turnquist, at the time the world’s greatest living Packard authority, and a personal friend of Howard Darrin, Darrin and Turnquist had a lengthy visit in the mid-to-late 1970’s, and covered a number of subjects, including the provenance of this car. Darrin related to Turnquist that when he first saw the LeBaron Twelve Boattail Packard in 1934, he thought it was “quite striking” although “a little bob-tailed in the rear end”. Turnquist remembered Darrin telling him that he hoped, at that time, that someone would commission him to do a Packard Twelve Boattail, “So that I could show LeBaron how it should have been done.” And, indeed, he did.
10. One last statement the America’s Packard Museum believes to be certain: No one, not even Dutch Darrin himself, could create this magnificent Speedster in his backyard using a rope, a tree limb, and a dis-used Auburn boattail body!

Statements of Fact Provided by Friends of the Dick Saunders Estate

1. It is undisputed that a family close to the Dick Saunders Estate holds voluminous automobile documentation from the estate that reveals this engine had been installed in more than one Packard chassis.
2. It is undisputed that Mr. Saunders owned more than 100 Packards in his lifetime and was an avid customizer who experimented with custom bodies and had a taste for custom European-built coachwork.
3. It is undisputed that Mr. Saunders was mentioned in the July 1951 issue of Hot Rod with a photo of a Packard with an Auburn Speedster body described as a hybrid classic built by Dick Saunders.
4. It is undisputed that Mr. Saunders was mentioned in the October 1952 issue of The Automobilist with a photo of a hybrid special built from Packard, Auburn and Studebaker components.
5. It is undisputed that Mr. Sliger worked with Dutch Darrin to accurately restore the car and in the process, the body was mounted on a restoration chassis.
6. This vehicle was previously sold at auction and represented with “replica coachwork”
7. The friends of the Dick Saunders Estate believe this automobile was a special speedster creation built by Dick Saunders in the late 1940s. 
8. <

    

Information found on the website is presented as advance information for the auction lot. Photos, materials for videos, descriptions and other information are provided by the consignor/seller and is deemed reliable, but Mecum Auction does not verify, warrant or guarantee this information. The lot and information presented at auction on the auction block supersedes any previous descriptions or information. Mecum is not responsible for information that may be changed or updated prior to the auction. The decision to purchase should be based solely on the buyers personal inspection of the lot at the auction site prior to the auction.

 

[alsancle]

For me personally, the car that was put together by Dick Saunders is an exceptionally cool Hot rod. I think that the marketplace and collectors in general only started to value period Hot rods in the last decade or two. This car restored to its twin supercharger configuration would be ridiculously fantastic. For me that is a much better story then Dutch Darrin borrowing an Auburn boat tail body and grafting it onto a Packard.  

Edited November 9, 2021 by alsancle (see edit history)

[edinmass]

AJ- problem is now, the story stinks so bad, it’s all just folklore.......with a bad start, middle, and ending. It’s been through too many hands, too many different looks, and too many fiction authors to ever be anything but a sad footnote. Wonder where it is now? 

[alsancle]

4 minutes ago, edinmass said:

AJ- problem is now, the story stinks so bad, it’s all just folklore.......with a bad start, middle, and ending. It’s been through too many hands, too many different looks, and too many fiction authors to ever be anything but a sad footnote. Wonder where it is now? 

 

It is unfortunate.   I've seen situations where "chatter" creates smoke around an otherwise fine car.  

 

On the other hand, you see the opposite happen much more often.  Not that owners are even lying or embellishing on purpose,  they are often passing down information given to them by a previous owner.   

 

But it is incredible bad luck to own a full blown custom Packard speedster made with an Auburn body that just happened to  be owned by a guy who was dropping Auburn bodies on anything he could find.   And kept all the pictures,  paperwork etc,  AND has friends and family that are happy to show anybody interested.

[TTR]

Perhaps this car and subsequent discussions would be more appropriate on that HAMB website where they are accustomed to and accommodating of vehicles being claimed or pretending to be period correct, even if a car is completely made of new reproduction parts and modern technology components.

[Matt Harwood]

18 hours ago, edinmass said:

Maybe we can end the conversation with the auction listing.......will make your head spin......we have proof it's real, and a fake. Fortunately  everyone is dead who can relate it in first person. Look at the auction venue........Why not RM? Gooding? See the description below......

 

 

• 30
• 2
• 108

MAIN ATTRACTIONS

• Color

  Black
•  

• VIN/Serial

  904080

 

HIGHLIGHTS

• According to America's Packard Museum, the coachwork on this car was designed and executed by the Dutch Darrin in Paris
• Restored by Harold Sliger with assistance from Dutch Darrin in the 1970s
• Featured in a 1988 issue of the AACA newsletter that displayed a certificate of authenticity and a list of unique components identified by Dutch Darrin
• The published letter of authentication states: I (Dutch Darrin) would like to authenticate the validity, and vicissitude, of Harold Sliger's, 1936 Packared Twelve: Fernandez & Darrin Speedster as being one of my creations.
• Recently restored by Fran Roxas with 3-years, 7,000 hours and $450,000 invested

For many years, the provenance of this automobile has been the subject of much research by historians and the curiosity of avid Packard enthusiasts. Differing opinions have been brought forth over several decades about this vehicle’s origins and early history. As the auction house, we will disclose the available information brought to our attention in an effort to provide potential buyers as much information as possible to assist in their decision making process to bid confidently at auction. Please note this 1936 Packard Twelve Gentleman’s Tailback Speedster is being offered by America’s Packard Museum in Dayton, Ohio and the following narrative has been provided by the museum’s historian.

 

This 1936 Packard Fernandez & Darrin Speedster is one of the most stunning Packards in existence; exquisitely designed, beautifully executed, and perfectly restored. It is a one-off, V-12 Packard sports car, and has recently completed a 3-year, 7,000 hour, restoration, at a cost in excess of $450,000. It is certainly one of the finest Classic Era motor cars, of any marque, ever built. Its jet-black finish is unblemished; its taupe ostrich-leather and Wilton wool interior is flawless; as is its interior and exterior brightwork; its instrumentation all works properly; it runs and drives as new.

According to America’s Packard Museum, this coachwork was designed and executed by the fabled Howard “Dutch” Darrin in Paris, in 1936, when he was in partnership with J. Fernandez, a wealthy banker and furniture manufacturer. It is one of a group of either five or six speedsters (history is a little vague on this point) which Darrin built on various chassis, including Packard, Duesenberg, Delage, and Buick (and perhaps another) in the 1936/1937 time frame, and shortly before Darrin shut down the Paris operation and returned to Hollywood, California in mid-1937. It is believed that the Buick example exists today and the Delage was spotted on national television with President Jimmy Carter riding in the car.

These particular speedsters were all produced by using a cache of Auburn Speedster “bodies-in-white” which Darrin had been able to acquire from the financially troubled Auburn Distributor in Paris, as a starting point.

This example is believed to have been originally commissioned by Parisian playboy Count Armand de La Rochefoucauld, Darrin’s polo-playing pal. Howard Darrin’s passion for polo was shared by La Rochefoucauld, who, though not having Darrin’s skill, was still an aficionado of the sport, and owned many of the ponies ridden by Darrin. It is reported that by early 1937 La Rochefoucauld owned not only a Fernandez & Darrin Town Car, executed on a Hispano-Suiza chassis, but the Packard Twelve Speedster as well.

This magnificent motor car, like many others, has acquired over the years a “Legend” in which it is claimed that a Mr. Dick Saunders, in upstate New York, built this piece of rolling art, “in his backyard” using a rope, a tree limb, a dis-used Auburn boattail body, and a Packard Twelve chassis and engine. Or maybe it was first on a Marmon chassis, either with or without a Marmon V-16 engine, depending on who is telling which version of the Legend. Or maybe the Packard Twelve was in the Marmon chassis. Or maybe the Marmon V-16 engine was in the Packard chassis.  

Documentation reveals that Mr. Saunders owned 116 Packards throughout his lifetime. He was one of the forefathers of Packard hot rodding and had created many different custom Packard Speedsters over the years. Mr. Saunders was in inveterate tinkerer, whole loved to play “mix and match” with various engines, chassis and bodies. It is documented that Mr. Saunders owned two or more Packard Speedsters fitted with custom Auburn bodies.

After Saunders’ death, his boattail was acquired from his estate by a Mr. Harold Sliger, from Illinois. Sliger was smart enough to seek out and find Mr. Darrin, for advice in restoring his car to its original glory. Mr. Darrin agreed to help Sliger, and advise him on what had to be both done and/or undone, or both, to restore the car to its original configuration. Sliger spent many nights on the telephone with Darrin and his son Patrick, consulting on these matters. When his trucking would take him to California, he would personally visit with both of them for the same purposes. Patrick recalls these visits and calls as he participated in them. Patrick recalls that his father told both him and Mr. Sliger that the car was his creation, in Paris.

As anyone who has ever attempted to address vague assertions and innuendo once they are in circulation knows, it is more difficult to gain a hearing with facts to set the record straight than it is to create doubt and cast aspersions. Nevertheless, the Packard Museum offers the following facts for your consideration to show that the 1936 Packard Twelve could only have been created by a master designer and craftsman of Dutch Darrin’s caliber rather than by an avid customizer whose specialty was mixing and matching parts from various makes and models in an effort to revive the great classics of the 1930s.

So how do we reconcile the conflicting beliefs and documents held by two parties of good faith in this dispute? We list the undisputed statements of fact from both sides to fully disclose all known information.

 

Statements of Fact Provided by America’s Packard Museum

1. The issue of authenticity was addressed and should have been laid to rest as a result of the research conducted by respected automotive historians Ed Blend and Robert Turnquist, with Dutch Darrin when he was still alive, and later published in the in the AACA magazine in Vol 52, No 4 (1988) article by Mr. Blend. 
2. In that article, and based upon extended interviews with Dutch Darrin himself, and others, Mr. Blend concludes, as follows: “With total restoration/reconstruction completed, it has been proved beyond doubt—Darrin’s number system, plus stamped and cast parts bearing his logo, and his personal attestment as well—that the car is authentic and of true heritage.”
3. Dutch Darrin wrote a letter of authentication in 1978 that states: “I would like to authenticate the validity, and vicissitude, of Harold Sliger’s, 1936 Packared Twelve: Fernandez & Darrin Boattail Speedster as being one of my creations.”
4. During one of their interviews, Mr. Darrin provided to Mr. Blend and Mr. Turnquist an extensive listing of particular Packard and Fernandez & Darrin parts and numbers which were among those used in the 1936 Speedster, and were still there.
5. It is undisputed that Patrick was a part of these discussions and that he witnessed the personally, and that his father, on several occasions either with Sliger or himself, spoke at length about it being “his” car.
6. If Mr. Darrin had not built this magnificent motor car, in Paris; if, indeed it had been cobbled together in somebody’s back yard in Upstate New York; if Darrin had no previous connection with it; how, then, would he have such a document?  
7. It is undisputed that Dutch Darrin bought five or six Auburn boattail bodies-in-white from the Paris Auburn Distributor during the throes of the Great Depression. One became a Duesenberg speedster, another a Packard Eight, a Buick, and a Delage. No one seems to know with certainty if a sixth car was purchased by Darrin, or, if so, what became of it.
8. It is undisputed that the 1936 Twelve Boattail contains features that are Darrin’s own styling cues such as: the stamped or cast “D” for Darrin on door hinges, bumper back bars and clamping devices; evidence of the European method of lead-filled body moldings with nailheads soldered in place in the tailback; several body alternations that would require the use of special sheet metal tooling; reverse bent 90 degree sheet metal that would be impossible to perform by hand and require a coach builder’s genius and tooling to accomplish; and also significantly the Darrin-patented “jiffy top” across the back of the seat
9. It is undisputed that according to Robert Turnquist, at the time the world’s greatest living Packard authority, and a personal friend of Howard Darrin, Darrin and Turnquist had a lengthy visit in the mid-to-late 1970’s, and covered a number of subjects, including the provenance of this car. Darrin related to Turnquist that when he first saw the LeBaron Twelve Boattail Packard in 1934, he thought it was “quite striking” although “a little bob-tailed in the rear end”. Turnquist remembered Darrin telling him that he hoped, at that time, that someone would commission him to do a Packard Twelve Boattail, “So that I could show LeBaron how it should have been done.” And, indeed, he did.
10. One last statement the America’s Packard Museum believes to be certain: No one, not even Dutch Darrin himself, could create this magnificent Speedster in his backyard using a rope, a tree limb, and a dis-used Auburn boattail body!

Statements of Fact Provided by Friends of the Dick Saunders Estate

1. It is undisputed that a family close to the Dick Saunders Estate holds voluminous automobile documentation from the estate that reveals this engine had been installed in more than one Packard chassis.
2. It is undisputed that Mr. Saunders owned more than 100 Packards in his lifetime and was an avid customizer who experimented with custom bodies and had a taste for custom European-built coachwork.
3. It is undisputed that Mr. Saunders was mentioned in the July 1951 issue of Hot Rod with a photo of a Packard with an Auburn Speedster body described as a hybrid classic built by Dick Saunders.
4. It is undisputed that Mr. Saunders was mentioned in the October 1952 issue of The Automobilist with a photo of a hybrid special built from Packard, Auburn and Studebaker components.
5. It is undisputed that Mr. Sliger worked with Dutch Darrin to accurately restore the car and in the process, the body was mounted on a restoration chassis.
6. This vehicle was previously sold at auction and represented with “replica coachwork”
7. The friends of the Dick Saunders Estate believe this automobile was a special speedster creation built by Dick Saunders in the late 1940s. 
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Information found on the website is presented as advance information for the auction lot. Photos, materials for videos, descriptions and other information are provided by the consignor/seller and is deemed reliable, but Mecum Auction does not verify, warrant or guarantee this information. The lot and information presented at auction on the auction block supersedes any previous descriptions or information. Mecum is not responsible for information that may be changed or updated prior to the auction. The decision to purchase should be based solely on the buyers personal inspection of the lot at the auction site prior to the auction.

 

 

With that kind of description and over use of the word "undisputed," methinks the lady doth protest too much.

[prewarnut]

I collect and restore other things and have done it long enough to have learned: when something doesn't line up, has a mismatched part, is missing something, has the wrong shape etc...it is not a factory "one-off", it is not an experimental piece, it is not a limited edition. What it is is what the smokescreen of excuses are trying to avert the buyer from, it is simply not-right!

[8E45E]

2 hours ago, prewarnut said:

I collect and restore other things and have done it long enough to have learned: when something doesn't line up, has a mismatched part, is missing something, has the wrong shape etc...it is not a factory "one-off", it is not an experimental piece, it is not a limited edition. What it is is what the smokescreen of excuses are trying to avert the buyer from, it is simply not-right!

You might in for a surprise when it comes to some Italian one, or two-off cars built by a smaller coachbuilder.   

 

They are well known to modify production items 'to fit', most often, in unseen places, such as inside the door panels, and chassis, etc.  I have seen an Italian one-off by Frua where the door strikers and latches were off-the-shelf parts, but the connecting rod from the latch to the inside door handles were welded together from two separate pieces, as an example.  One could see the extra effort Frua's staff took to 'make it work'.

 

Craig

Edited November 12, 2021 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Even on American cars there are sometimes things that at first glance look like aftermarket cobbles. Torino and Cyclone 428 CJ, 4 speed cars. Look in the trunk where the staggered shock plate welds in. On the production line they just torch a hole in the stock floor and roughly weld the staggered shock parts in. They even cut through the stock spare tire hold down loop and leave part of it in place . Then weld in a new hold down loop in a slightly different location. It looks like something a Jr. High kid did in Metal Shop, but it is 100% production line FOMOCO.

 Just a low production number , expedient fix.

 This one off the net does not show the hold down , but it does show the rough torch work on the trunk floor. All 100 % factory. My guess is that some people on the production line were tidyer than others and fully removed the old loop rather than leaving 1/2 still there. On my 70 Torino Cobra there was 1 1/2 loops.

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[F&J]

1 hour ago, 1912Staver said:

Even on American cars there are sometimes things that at first glance look like aftermarket cobbles.

I recently saw a post someplace about the 1964-65 Worlds Fair Ford "Skyway" ride cars that ran on rails.  I never knew Ford resold those ride cars as used cars after the fair.  They showed a survivor Skyway Mustang conv and it still had thick steel plates with empty bolt-holes welded onto the sub frame (these welded on brackets attached/bolted the car to the track rails). Ford never cut them off.  

[TTR]

2 hours ago, 8E45E said:

You might in for a surprise when it comes to some Italian one, or two-off cars built by a smaller coachbuilder.   

 

They are well known to modify production items 'to fit', most often, in unseen places, such as inside the door panels, and chassis, etc.  I have seen an Italian one-off by Frua where the door strikers and latches were off-the-shelf parts, but the connecting rod from the latch to the inside door handles were welded together from two separate pieces, as an example.  One could see the extra effort Frua's staff took to 'make it work'.

 

Craig

These kinds of "methods" aren't/weren't limited to one- or two-off examples.

Many smaller Italian car manufacturers like Ferrari, Maserati, etc had all their production cars coach work + related components "make it work" fabricated, modified (or used "as is") from generic, "off-the-shelf" components readily available from parts vendors producing small items for the entire "industry" of vehicle manufacturing.

This apparently was a common practice up until at least '70s/'80s by aforementioned and similar (exotic) brands.

 

[Pilgrim65]

One thing for sure the car has certainly promoted some interesting a diverse posts , I admire the wealth of  knowledge shown  and specific information provided , making me return and read latest posts enjoying the arguments for and against 

cheers posters 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Pilgrim65
Correction (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

Lots of strange info.

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

The "Italian way" is known. I'm simply stating when a gross difference in style or construction (not extra welds) is seen it is usually a "marriage" not a prototype, not a supposed new model stopped by top brass, not an experimental piece. This all relates to the original vehicle discussed here who's lines don't match contemporary styling but there's numerous "excuses" to attempt to support a provenance. This again happens in the antiques world...