Dumb Car Laws

[Spinneyhill]

Can't let it pass unchallenged. We have a proportion of our drivers who call speed cameras revenue gathering too. But it is an entirely voluntary tax or revenue payment. The driver has complete control over whether he is obliged to pay it. Also, why disobey that law and not the one restricting murder? It is only victimless if you don't crash. No one can tell me they are not on "auto pilot" or distracted (e.g. talking to a passenger or a phone or inserting a CD or something) from time to time.

Another thing about motorcycle (and cycle) helmets is that, as a taxpayer, paying for the medical and future care of a crashed helmetless rider infringes my personal freedoms. It is sort of similar to passive smoking. I don't want smoker's toxins in my air, thank you very much, and I also object to paying for smokers' care later in life when they are dying as a result of it.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[R.White]

It depends on where the cameras are positioned. The siting of cameras near accident 'black spots' or outside schools is understandable for road safety but locating cameras where there is no risk is pointless unless it is to catch out drivers (who miss the carefully concealed signs) as a stealth tax. We have seen a fight back over here up and down the country. In one situation in my home town, several hundred drivers were snapped in a week exceeding a 30 mph limit on the ring road. Eventually, a Police Sergeant was dragged before the court and in his defence he claimed that the cameras were positioned inappropriately; his assertion was that it was unrealistic to expect motorists to drive at 30mph along a dual carriageway where there was no sidewalk (pavement) with central and side barriers. The Magistrate agreed and overturned all the previous convictions (including mine) and the cameras mysteriously disappeared shortly afterwards.

[ply33]

. . . it was unrealistic to expect motorists to drive at 30mph along a dual carriageway where there was no sidewalk (pavement) with central and side barriers. The Magistrate agreed and overturned all the previous convictions . . .

Around here that type of thing is supposed to be caught by traffic studies: Unless there have been accidents or other circumstances that may not be obvious to a driver, speed limits are supposed to be set by traffic survey where the speed is determined by the 85 percentile of the actual speed people are driving. Upper limit on those speed limits is set by the state's "prima facie" law though and many, perhaps the vast majority of roads, are pretty much signed at what the prima facie speed is for that type of road in the state motor vehicle code.

[60FlatTop]

I still have this image of a sheriff in waders having an argument with a guy in the water with his car. I guess its all in the name of public safety. I did get a smile out of exploring the thought deeper: http://vimeo.com/47089948.

[Dandy Dave]

Oohhh My word..., Looks like a job for Amphicar Buyer.... Dandy Dave!

[MyJetstar1]

Re: Dumb Car Laws

Quote,

..."immediately and as rapidly as possible... disassemble the automobile," and (3) "conceal the various components out of sight, behind nearby bushes" until equestrian or livestock is sufficiently pacified"

This works equally as well if your wife objects to your hobby.

You had the better idea, Roger. I told my wife the cars belonged to friends. It backfired when she started calling them to come get their cars.

[60FlatTop]

Sure Jetstar you told your wife the cars were your friend's. I know how that works:

Bernie

[Luv2Wrench]

Re: Dumb Car Laws

Quote,

..."immediately and as rapidly as possible... disassemble the automobile," and (3) "conceal the various components out of sight, behind nearby bushes" until equestrian or livestock is sufficiently pacified"

This works equally as well if your wife objects to your hobby.

Maybe this is what happened to my car.

[R.White]

caught in the act!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/472408/VIDEO-Shocking-moment-car-EXPLODES-on-motorway-to-leave-both-passengers-deaf

"Now where are those bushes?"

Ray.

Edited September 29, 2014 by R.White (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Had a customer who bought a very expensive unrestored car and had us do it. He asked us to simply move the decimal point 1 place to the left on all correspondence or if we were to speak to his wife. If he paid $50,000 for the car we were to refer to it as $5000 and so on. They have since divorced.

[60FlatTop]

Had a customer who bought a very expensive unrestored car and had us do it. He asked us to simply move the decimal point 1 place to the left on all correspondence or if we were to speak to his wife. If he paid $50,000 for the car we were to refer to it as $5000 and so on. They have since divorced.

OOOOhhhh, Boy, that sure reminds me of a building operations consulting job I once went on. I have a little windshield time to do today. Maybe I will reminiscence about that job.

Bernie

[28 Chrysler]

Here in Las Vegas there are school zones that the sings say 15 MPH when children are present.

Only 1 child ? 24 hours a day ? How about if they are in your own car or they are using spray paint on a school wall at 2 AM ?

An other one they just came up with is a "distracted driver".

If an officer thinks you are distracted for any reason ( cell phone, radio, passengers, looking at a scantly dressed gal or whatever) you can be ticketed.

[Amphicar BUYER]

I don't buy into the comments that say you pay for a helmetless motorcycle rider's injuries. You do not! Do you think that if you are in a car wreck and get a head or any type of injury that you should not pay for that too as they are not wearing a helmet or have a roll cage in your car? Maybe all cars should require roll cages and drivers to wear helmets? Maybe we should make convertibles illegal too? Why don't busses have seatbelts? This is nonsense and more misinformation. I choose to wear a lid and sometimes I choose not to. If I get in a wreck on my bike is has the same effect on you that when you crash your car has on me. Mile per mile motorcycles still have fewer injuries than automobiles. Your insurance does not pay for my injuries. My insurance does not pay for yours either.

[CarlLaFong]

^^^^I have heard that lame, ill advised rant for years. It seems a large majority thinks that all injuries, caused by no helmets, no seat belts or some other egregious lack of common sense are placed on some secret list and the American taxpayers are forced to pay for their care, forever. It never happens if all laws and prudent behavior is followed. Nobody ever complains when someone gets cancer and has to go into the hospital, but let one helmetless biker go down and the whining begins

[Spinneyhill]

In New Zealand, our health system is paid for by the tax payer, as it is in UK. Health insurance is held by only a small proportion of the population. Thus we all pay for people who are too blase to keep themselves safe. US health insurance premiums are also affected by such people being injured.

Back to dumb laws. Not sure if this qualifies. In NZ, there was a change to the "right hand rule" ("left hand rule" in LHD countries?) about 10 years ago. It was changed to make left turning traffic give way to right turning traffic when both were turning into the same side road from opposing directions. This is the opposite of what it was before and of most countries. A year ago, it was changed back to what it was before. Too many crashes at intersections (i.e. confusion), not to mention the international drivers who were confused. In the last month I have had two right turners turn across me when I had right of way, one of which was a 12 tonne truck of soil. I think the change was supposed to improve traffic flow and safety by getting the right turners out of the middle of the road where they were a hazard while waiting. OK, it may have reduced the nose to tail crashes in the centre of the road, but it just lead to more intersection prangs.

[60FlatTop]

Well, you can't law laws that are so obvious they actually reduce crime. Budgets depend on it:

http://www.newsday.com/opinion/the-paradox-of-school-speed-cameras-editorial-1.9155908

Bernie

[Guest]

This is a great one and a true story;

This happened to an Englishman in France who was totally drunk.

The French policeman stops his car and asks the gentleman if he has been drinking. With great difficulty, the Englishman admits that he has been drinking all day, that his daughter got married in the morning to a French man, and that he drank champagne and a few bottles of wine at the reception and a quite few glasses of single malt thereafter.

Quite upset, the policeman proceeds to alcotest (breath test) him and asks the Englishman if he knows under French Law why he is going to be arrested.

The Englishman answers with humour: "No sir, I do not! But while we’re asking questions, do you know that this is a British car and my wife is driving... on the other side !!

[Amphicar BUYER]

In New Zealand, our health system is paid for by the tax payer, as it is in UK. Health insurance is held by only a small proportion of the population. Thus we all pay for people who are too blase to keep themselves safe. US health insurance premiums are also affected by such people being injured...

This is NOT how it is in the US, I can't speak about NZ or the UK. However to single out only motorcycle riders is ignorant. The text in BOLD from your post is only partially correct as you omitted the all important fact that the these rates in the USA are NOT based on only motorcycle riders, they are based on all forms of transport. We (motorcycle riders) do not complain that we pay higher rates due to the other drivers choices. This is a common misconception from the people (non-riders mostly) who choose to filter the facts and strategically omit many of the facts to make it appear as they want. Most motorcycle accidents are caused by inattentive drivers, the vast majority of those are illegal left turns in front of the biker. Again, passenger mile per mile, motorcycles are still safer than cars.

[R W Burgess]

...........Most motorcycle accidents are caused by inattentive drivers, the vast majority of those are illegal left turns in front of the biker. Again, passenger mile per mile, motorcycles are still safer than cars.

You're being too kind John. I don't want to get in a fuss about educated drivers, but the education (on the road training) leaves a lot to be desired.

Thinking about these people killed from GM ignition defects.... Just for fun this morning, while bringing Gloria back home from a Doctor's visit, I turned the engine on my '08 Suburban off. Car was easy to control. Wait, I said, let's try it longer. So I did it again at 60 mph, waited a few seconds and noticed the steering get a little tight. I was swaying back and forth with no problems. ?? Well, the wife wasn't happy. She was hitting the "emergency control", beating me on the arm.

The point is I could have driven home like this. I did not try the brakes, but I'm sure after 2-3 pumps they would have gone hard but would still be operational. So, what gives? Neither my wife or I died in the median strip.

Better school instruction is needed for everyone. There's no reason to see these people getting hurt because of poor training.

Forgot to add, everyone test your vehicles out "at the limit" so you can learn what "your limits are" with your vehicles!

[R W Burgess]

........is that the airbags are turned off when the ignition switch is in the OFF position and that the switches tended to rotate to the OFF position during an accident where an airbag would be useful....

If this is the case then we are back to proper education before getting your driver's license. Accidents should be avoided in the first place, not thought about after the fact. Sorry, didn't mean to rant, but as John said above, we need to prevent accidents in the first place to protect all of us.

[Dandy Dave]

If this is the case then we are back to proper education before getting your driver's license. Accidents should be avoided in the first place, not thought about after the fact. Sorry, didn't mean to rant, but as John said above, we need to prevent accidents in the first place to protect all of us.

Hear Hear. Yes, I am with you Wayne. Dandy Dave!

[DAVE A]

Well all of the professions of fact on the safety of motorcycles got this Ignorant, myopic, misinformed idiot thinking. Perhaps I don't have the facts...perhaps I am wrong. So I went to the website of the agency in charge of keeping statistics on these things. The National Highway Transportation Safety Administration has a National Center on Statistics that accumulates the figures on this stuff. Now I realize there are lots of agencies and companies that keep statistics so I am sure proponents of motorcycles have factual statistics to the contrary also. Anyway, according to their 2007 statistics (which seems to be the most current I could find) 13.1 cars per 100,000 registered in the United States were involved in fatal accidents...This compares to 72.34 motorcycles per 100,000 registered ...a rate of 5.5 times more frequent. If you are more interested in a rate per mile traveled the death rate for motorcycles is 35 times more than for a car. Overall motorcycles represent 5% of all vehicle fatalities while only making up 2% of vehicles registered.

By the way according to them of every 100 motorcycle fatalities not wearing a helmet...they estimate 37 of them would have been saved if they had worn one.

[dan at larescorp]

The stats I would like to see is how many fatal motorcycle crashes involve some idiot in his car not paying attention and slamming into the bike. From personal experience I'm willing to bet the problem is less with the biker and more with the driver. Call me ignorant if you like, but I've seen this first hand. I've never been in an accident on my bike, because I watch everyone next to me like a hawk. It's saved my life more times then I can remember.

Don't get me wrong. There are many people on motorcycles that have no respect for the road, drive way too fast,and swerve in and out of traffic. That doesn't mean you can lump all of us together. That's like me telling you that you shouldn't be allowed on the road with your car because you might be a teenage girl texting her girlfriends.

[Larry Schramm]

Three things that I do not do.

1. Jump out of perfectly good airplanes,

2. Bunge jumping,

3. Ride a motorcycle.

The risk management side of me says too much downfall to upside.

[R.White]

Quite frankly, it doesn't much matter who is to blame for the crash when you are laid out on a slab. It's then someone else's problem.

[Amphicar BUYER]

Stating 7+ year old statistics is like test driving a 2007 car but buying a 2014. It does not translate, not to say they still may show similar results. I stated "MOTORCYCLES" not just registered road bikes. There are many many miles traveled by unregistered motorcycles and scooters thru back country and off road paths. They are far more dangerous by nature and certainly are passenger miles traveled. In Europe I'd bet the figures are significantly different that the ones you had available to you.

I am not against helmets, I am against helmet laws. Helmets block your view and it always mutes your hearing making it difficult to not only hear whats around you but more importantly to discern where the sound is coming from. Anyone who rides and wears a lid knows this. Just as seat belts are not always a good idea and certainly are not required in all vehicles, helmets are undoubtedly a good choice in most cases, but not in all.

[DAVE A]

The stats I would like to see is how many fatal motorcycle crashes involve some idiot in his car not paying attention and slamming into the bike. From personal experience I'm willing to bet the problem is less with the biker and more with the driver. Call me ignorant if you like, but I've seen this first hand. I've never been in an accident on my bike, because I watch everyone next to me like a hawk. It's saved my life more times then I can remember.

Don't get me wrong. There are many people on motorcycles that have no respect for the road, drive way too fast,and swerve in and out of traffic. That doesn't mean you can lump all of us together. That's like me telling you that you shouldn't be allowed on the road with your car because you might be a teenage girl texting her girlfriends.

Dan...please don't get me wrong... I am not anti motorcycle. I never had the confidence in my abilities (particularly my vision in my younger days) to be confident riding a motorcycle . There are too many crazies out there and I value my safety too much (coming from a guy that drives Crosleys, that's almost laughable). To answer your question , according to the same years statistics 40% (939) of the 2,332 motorcycle fatalities that involved 2 vehicles occurred when the other vehicle turned left in front of an oncoming motorcycle. I am sure there are a number of other 2 vehicle crash circumstances that also involve vehicle drivers that just don't pay attention well enough to see the motorcycle. I won't get into the alcohol statistics but they are tragic also.

[dan at larescorp]

Sorry Dave, I didn't mean for that to be directed to your statement. I reread what I posted and it sounded like I was coming after you in that post. That was not my intention.

Thank you for the answer. By those statistics that's saying almost half of the fatal accidents are caused just by someone making a left turn in front of a motorcycle. So now if we figure in lane changes, rear ending, running a stop sign/light, and whatever other variations make that percentage go a lot higher. I'm a big guy. I can be seen far better then others because of it. It seams like people still try running me off the road every time I look down to check my speed. Again, some bikers are complete idiots. If your riding 100 mph and swerving in and out of traffic it should be considered natural selection.

My point being, saying things like "motorcyclist are why my insurance rates are high" is absolutely ridiculous. Inattentive drivers of any vehicle type have contributed to the insurance premiums. Not to mention the outright greed of the insurance companies. But that's an entirely different issue.

[oldcarfudd]

I've never ridden a motorcycle. I've ridden bicycles hundreds of miles, sometimes (but usually not) in traffic. People do dumb things, whether on two wheels or four, but the guy on two has a lot less protection if he's not agile enough to get out of the way.

I'm reminded of two things. One is an old Burma Shave ad:

He was right-

Dead right -

As he sped along,

But he's just as dead

As if he'd been wrong.

The other is a line from Sancho Panza in "Man of La Mancha":

Whether the stone hits the pitcher or the pitcher hits the stone, it's going to be hard on the pitcher.

[DAVES89]

Stating 7+ year old statistics is like test driving a 2007 car but buying a 2014. It does not translate, not to say they still may show similar results. I stated "MOTORCYCLES" not just registered road bikes. There are many many miles traveled by unregistered motorcycles and scooters thru back country and off road paths. They are far more dangerous by nature and certainly are passenger miles traveled. In Europe I'd bet the figures are significantly different that the ones you had available to you.

I am not against helmets, I am against helmet laws. Helmets block your view and it always mutes your hearing making it difficult to not only hear whats around you but more importantly to discern where the sound is coming from. Anyone who rides and wears a lid knows this. Just as seat belts are not always a good idea and certainly are not required in all vehicles, helmets are undoubtedly a good choice in most cases, but not in all.

Can't have it both ways. Can't say you shouldn't wear a helmet because you need to hear and then run straight pipes so others can hear you. One cancels out the other. And that is what mirrors are for, to improve seeing what is around you. Keep your head on a swivel. that is what I do with my daily driver Reatta. I am looking all the time, and I still look over my shoulder when doing lane changes, and many people [including bikers] do not.

I don't like driving down the road with the windows down and a biker comes past with his pipes so loud conversation stops in the car or you can't hear the radio.

If a guy wants to go without a helmet that is his decision. I just don't want the loud pipes. If a car was as loud as a bike the car owner would have to fix it, but not the bike owner.

[dan at larescorp]

Can't have it both ways. Can't say you shouldn't wear a helmet because you need to hear and then run straight pipes so others can hear you. One cancels out the other. And that is what mirrors are for, to improve seeing what is around you. Keep your head on a swivel. that is what I do with my daily driver Reatta. I am looking all the time, and I still look over my shoulder when doing lane changes, and many people [including bikers] do not.

I don't like driving down the road with the windows down and a biker comes past with his pipes so loud conversation stops in the car or you can't hear the radio.

If a guy wants to go without a helmet that is his decision. I just don't want the loud pipes. If a car was as loud as a bike the car owner would have to fix it, but not the bike owner.

WHAT???

Being able to hear, and others hearing you are two completely separate issues. On the bike your moving away from the sound. It's behind you. So even with loud pipes you can still hear whats going on around you. I can tell you've never really rode a motorcycle before by this statement.

As for the loud pipes, they are not for me being able to see you. It's so you know I'm there. If irritating you with my loud exhaust makes sure your not changing lanes into me on the freeway then I'm all for it. My life is more important then your conversation that's more than likely distraction you from PAYING ATTENTION TO THE ROAD anyways!

Fact is, anyone who rides on a regular basis DOES have their head on a swivel. All the time. From the moment you leave your driveway till the moment you park your bike. It's the other idiots on the road who don't. I appreciate the fact that you paying attention to the road, but others do not! Again, just like with car drivers, this doesn't apply to all bikers. There are some idiots on two wheels as well as four. Only difference is the idiots on two wheels don't seem to last very long. The idiots on 4 wheels get a new chance every morning. If you look at a guy who has put over 20K miles on his bike you'll notice he doesn't ride around like a jackass.

[R W Burgess]

............

A lot of arguments for loud pipes just went behind you.

I guess the "arguments' were not heard by the lawmakers, as I seldom see a motorcyclist fined for loud pipes, otherwise there would not be any.

[Chris Bamford]

...So loud pipes do not inform people in front of you of your presence, just those behind...

And a one or two block radius of pedestrians, people in their yards and those in their homes with a window open.

[dan at larescorp]

I've noticed this too......

So loud pipes do not inform people in front of you of your presence, just those behind.

So pipes do not help avoid Left turns IN FRONT of you

So pipes do not help avoid Lane changes IN FRONT of you

So piped do not help avoid parked car doors opening IN FRONT of you

A lot of arguments for loud pipes just went behind you.

I can see the people in front of me. It's the cars besides, and behind me that the loud pipes apply to. It's for the cars that I can't keep a constant eye on while continuing to ride down the road. So, No my arguments did not fall behind me. Same thing applies to car drivers. You can't look all places all of the time.

If something was going on IN FRONT of me I would hopefully have the appropriate time to react and avoid the situation. If someone merges in to me on the freeway while sitting in my blind spot there isn't much I can do about that.

Edited October 7, 2014 by dan@larescorp (see edit history)

[CarlLaFong]

I have ridden motorcycles for over 50 years, so I think I am qualified to make some observations. Motorcycles are dangerous. There is no denying that fact. I know people who have died on their bikes. Helmets save lives. They do restrict vision if you wear a full coverage lid. They don't restrict hearing. The wind noise on a bike can be ferocious. On long rides, I wear ear plugs. I have found that a full face helmet allows me to hear better because it blocks the wind noise. Loud pipes do not save lives. What a bunch of hooey. As has been noted, the only one who can hear your pipes are those who have already seen you and pedestrians. My bike is a 350 Chevy powered Boss Hoss. It has short pipes with no mufflers whatsoever. It is factory stock. It is only loud when I am into the throttle. Cruising on the freeway, it just makes a low rumble. Nobody can hear me coming. I will continue to rely upon my swivel head, my instincts and the grace of God to keep me alive. When I'm out on the road, hammering along at 80 mph, I'm in my element. I'll admit that bikes are kinda stupid and mine is absurd but it's just something that I have to do

[JACK M]

No dog in this fight here, but that Boss Hoss is probably louder behind you than you notice.

Personally I like the loud pipes, there is no other sound like an uncorked Harley. Even those zingy Jap bikes sound OK to me.

[CarlLaFong]

I've ridden in a group of 13 BHs. At freeway speeds, they just aren't that loud. Mine runs 60 mph at 1800 rpm. Little more than a high idle. An HD or a sport bike runs a lot higher rpms than that. Smaller cylinders, higher revs equals more racket, I think. Listen to an .049 model airplane engine compared to a big old hit and miss

[DAVES89]

I still hold to my statement. The bikes should have the same decibel regulation a car does. When I was a teenager and ran glass packs in my 454 elCamino I got pulled over and had to change it out, I was OK with it as I, even as a teenager, thought it was too loud.

But you get these bikers with the straight pipes and they rev it up and wind out in 1st/2nd and you can hear them for blocks and nobody says a word. And tell me that is not a "Look at me " statement.

Car drivers have to wear seat belts and bikers don't have to wear helmets. Bikers can have loud exhausts and cars have to be quiet.

I guess you guys do a better job of lobbying...

[R.White]

Personally, I think it all boils down to a lack of respect.

The person who puts his own interests first by definition is putting everyone else second.

[dictator27]

No dog in the fight here, either, but this is what gives motorcyclists a bad name:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq_6toXQCdk

Terry