pkhammer Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 This is being sold at an auction house practically in my back yard. One of you Packard guys needs this jewel!! Buy it and come pick it up when you come to the convention next weekend! https://bid.greenvalleyauctions.com/ui/auctions/113791/14673116 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Love the car, but all I can see is checks written outweighing the pleasure. That’s a shame… 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkhammer Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 When I saw the photos of the interior, I wondered how many rodents have lived and died in that Packard over the years and how many are still in it!! @trimacar c'mon, this would look good in your garage, right where the PA sits. 😜 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 I call the spring assemblies in such cars “mouse condominiums”…..”hey, I’m in third row, three down, come see me sometime!” Enough projects, thanks! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmhowe Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Seeing that car almost makes me cry! What a neat car it once was. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Not even a parts car today……sad. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34LaSalleClubSedan Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 1933 not 1932 as listed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Okay, after reading comments, I had to click on the link and take a look (in spite of the fact there is no way I could afford to even think about such a car?). Wow, what an incredible car that could become! It is in far worse condition than my Paige was when my dad bought it almost 60 years ago! And I did spend some significant time on the Paige after it became mine. It was almost half done thirty years ago. But family keeps getting in the way, no time and not enough money to continue working on it. When I look at cars like that Packard, I still see potential. I remember when I was restoring one car after another and think "I could do that!" But then reality sets in. My days for that kind of restoration are past. To do that Packard to a good level (not Pebble Beach) would take at least ten times as much money and ten times as much time as it would take to finish the Paige if I had the time and a few dollars. Maybe even twenty times as much. I might still be able to finish the Paige some day. 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) 12 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said: Okay, after reading comments, I had to click on the link and take a look (in spite of the fact there is no way I could afford to even think about such a car?). Wow, what an incredible car that could become! It is in far worse condition than my Paige was when my dad bought it almost 60 years ago! And I did spend some significant time on the Paige after it became mine. It was almost half done thirty years ago. But family keeps getting in the way, no time and not enough money to continue working on it. When I look at cars like that Packard, I still see potential. I remember when I was restoring one car after another and think "I could do that!" But then reality sets in. My days for that kind of restoration are past. To do that Packard to a good level (not Pebble Beach) would take at least ten times as much money and ten times as much time as it would take to finish the Paige if I had the time and a few dollars. Maybe even twenty times as much. I might still be able to finish the Paige some day. 12 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said: Okay, after reading comments, I had to click on the link and take a look (in spite of the fact there is no way I could afford to even think about such a car?). Wow, what an incredible car that could become! It is in far worse condition than my Paige was when my dad bought it almost 60 years ago! And I did spend some significant time on the Paige after it became mine. It was almost half done thirty years ago. But family keeps getting in the way, no time and not enough money to continue working on it. When I look at cars like that Packard, I still see potential. I remember when I was restoring one car after another and think "I could do that!" But then reality sets in. My days for that kind of restoration are past. To do that Packard to a good level (not Pebble Beach) would take at least ten times as much money and ten times as much time as it would take to finish the Paige if I had the time and a few dollars. Maybe even twenty times as much. I might still be able to finish the Paige some day. $250,000 wouldn't fix it. Not even close. Edited February 3 by mikewest (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkhammer Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 So, if it'd cost way too much to even consider a restoration and wouldn't interest a Packard collector even as a parts car, what could the car's fate be? The world's only Packard club sedan rat rod? Body looks pretty solid, just scuff off the loose stuff and clear-coat it. Small block Chevy, auto trans, burlap interior.................. 30 years ago, collectors would've been clamoring to restore this car. Not today. It'll be interesting to see what it brings. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 6 minutes ago, mikewest said: $250,000 wouldn't fix it. Not even close. If a person were to have my Paige done from its current state? Would probably cost 25K for a mediocre job. Doing all the work myself I figure about $4000 left out of my pocket. The biggest costs left are the glass and the brakes. I knew what was coming, and had an opportunity to have the nickel plating all done over thirty years ago (was over $2000 then!). The biggest amount of work left is the full interior. If I can get to it, it won't be my first, though it might be my last full interior. I already have almost all the materials for it! Very nice mohair, very close to what they used originally. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramair Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 As some of you may know I have a soft spot for Packard and specifically Packard twelve club sedans ( sorry Ed but it starts with a p) . I have changed my opinion of what is savable and what is not. I started. Looking for a twelve 30 years ago and never could find one that I could afford, ultimately I bought a junior Packard , some other opportunities came along and I added to the stable, nothing in the class and value of a Twelve. Around 9 years ago I decided to get serious and buy a twelve before I would be too old to enjoy it. I looked and looked, not many came up for sale , finally one was available, I liked the color and its pedigree as it was owned at one time by the Cars and parts magazine owner, it started, drove and looked decent, the deal was made, it was a twenty footer but it was mine and I was happy for about 600 miles when the engine gave out, unfortunately in that 600 miles I found other issues that did not appear on that fateful day when I bought it, I found it had the infamous case of the death wobbles, I thought it was just a matter of worn front end. As I started down the road of fixing that we found that the front end was damaged in a previous crash. Brakes where worn out , transmission case was cracked , clutch and brake boosters where leaking, the roof fabrics needed to be done, some chrome pitting and the paint needed some touch up. Let’s do the math using worse case scenario, engine $70,000 chrome. $30,000 top. $5,000 paint. $30,000 gauges wood grain $7,500 uohostery update. $15,000 Front end repair. $9,000 so I started on it and decided that it made no sense to continue. I did always want a twelve but I had no emotional connection with this car, so why commit to this level. The story has a good ending for me, not for the car. I decided to be patient and wait for another twelve, this time I knew what can get you in trouble. I found a perfect twelve, we have been working on it for 5 weeks to do all the deferred maintenance. Not one unexpected bad thing has happened and yet these are complicated cars with parts made out of unobtanium. I believe we are at 160 man hours (pardon, not PC) I guess what I am saying is even if you find something 5 times nicer than this car at auction it will still take your breath away before your done. I will post I picture of the car that taught me a life lesson 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Ouch! Did anyone ever get that car back onto the road? Nice looker (twenty footer you say?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramair Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Unfortunately I do not believe it will ever be back in the road, as one of my friends that has a great admiration of the other fine motor car make that begins with a P would say it’s a “parts car”. Some would say that right off the bat that I am comparing a early twelve to late one and there is no comparison and they would be right as far as value when restoration is complete, but not by much as we are talking about a non open top car. i just wanted to stress that the above car as nice as it looks in the photo would eat $175,000 and still not be a really nice car, so where does that put one with the auction car above💸💸💸💸. The happy ending for me is finding the almost same car that happens to be a low mile 37,000 mile car that was delivered new a the same Earl C Anthony dealership the same month that my first car was. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Now, that one is a nice looking car! Sounds like with some loss and setbacks, you came out okay. And by the way? I love sedans! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 What a great car! Such a shame. If this was 30 or 40 years ago it would have ended up Beige and Brown with red wheels and whitewalls. I think now it will end up being a parts car. Might sell for more than you would think. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 12 hours ago, edinmass said: Not even a parts car today……sad. Well.... I see a lot of parts on that car worth a lot of money, so I'm thinking you're not being totally serious. The instrument panel/guages alone (Twelve only) is probably an item that would bring a minimum of $2,000. Steering wheel and horn button, another $2,000. Taillights another grand. Engine, who knows? ... But there are some unique to 1933 pieces on it. The fuel pump would probably fetch $1,000, maybe more ($3,000 after rebuild). Rust-free fenders, a LOT of interior items that I'm often seeing "want ads" for. The car should probably go to Australia. I've seen those guys start with half as good of a car and make something (if not totally authentic and perfect) out of it. It's a mess, yes. Would I recommend anyone buying it and having it restored professionally? No, absolutely not. BUT, there is a whole facet to this old-car hobby where people LOVE to bring something back from the dead. So, it's a do-it-yourself kind of car, and appears to be relatively complete. The worst part for the hobbyist will be getting that engine to run without spending $70k. 13 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 1 minute ago, West Peterson said: Well.... I see a lot of parts on that car worth a lot of money, so I'm thinking you're not being totally serious. The instrument panel/guages alone (Twelve only) is probably an item that would bring a minimum of $2,000. Steering wheel and horn button, another $2,000. Taillights another grand. Engine, who knows? ... But there are some unique to 1933 pieces on it. The fuel pump would probably fetch $1,000, maybe more ($3,000 after rebuild). Rust-free fenders, a LOT of interior items that I'm often seeing "want ads" for. The car should probably go to Australia. I've seen those guys start with half as good of a car and make something (if not totally authentic and perfect) out of it. It's a mess, yes. Would I recommend anyone buying it and having it restored professionally? No, absolutely not. BUT, there is a whole facet to this old-car hobby where people LOVE to bring something back from the dead. So, it's a do-it-yourself kind of car, and appears to be relatively complete. The worst part for the hobbyist will be getting that engine to run without spending $70k. tsk tsk West. Have you not noticed that Ed deals in hyperbole? Many many good parts on that car. Also, I'm not a 33 guru but I have a feeling they are hard to come by. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 1 minute ago, alsancle said: tsk tsk West. Have you not noticed that Ed deals in hyperbole? Many many good parts on that car. Also, I'm not a 33 guru but I have a feeling they are hard to come by. They built about 500 Twelves in 1933. Many unique 1933 parts. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) There are many good parts on the car. The real question is who needs them? I have been in the parts business for 25 years for Pierce Arrow automobiles; I think I have a pretty good feel for the market. Exhaust manifold will always sell' a few pieces of chrome trim well too. I know where there’s an identical car at 100 points that probably had a $600,000 Restoration available for $.45 on the dollar. So unless you’re looking for a project, which is fine and I understand; the economic realities of today’s car repair and restoration makes this a parts car - whoever cuts it up will end up with 80% or more of it on the shelf when they die. If anybody hasn’t noticed, I stopped vending at Hershey five years ago. Since I’ve gotten out of it, my partner in crime is still doing a decent business and used parts but it’s not even close to what used to be. sorry for the typos this is being done in a moving car on my phone with voice to text. Edited February 3 by edinmass (see edit history) 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 As Al said, the final price on this car might surprise you. Packard parts are a whole lot more valuable than Pierce-Arrow parts, and a whole lot more in demand. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
58L-Y8 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 What an unfortunate end to a great car. Chances are if any portion of the chassis sees the road again, it will be an ersatz coupe-roadster or sport phaeton, maybe as a Super Eight. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 You could have bought this finished car for a fraction of the restoration costs. Of course, the clown car paint job probably cut its value in half. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1934-packard-twelve-1107-club-sedan/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 10 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said: You could have bought this finished car for a fraction of the restoration costs. Of course, the clown car paint job probably cut its value in half. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1934-packard-twelve-1107-club-sedan/ And even that clown car could use a piece or two from this parts car. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Well, gee whiz! Since this is a "parts car" and not worth much, perhaps a [ gasp ] street rod. I know, blasphemy! But better than the CRUSHER! Ben 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 1 minute ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: Well, gee whiz! Since this is a "parts car" and not worth much, perhaps a [ gasp ] street rod. I know, blasphemy! But better than the CRUSHER! Ben Someone already made a "rod" out of an identical 100 point 12 about 15 years ago. Also recently done to a Pierce Arrow production silver arrow. It's too rough for the rod guys....look at the front doors literally falling apart. Its coach built.......and I bet more than 50 percent of the wood needs replacement. With very little demand for parts, there is no realistic way to sell the car at a number that would be expected by most sellers. Market dynamics are changing across the board on ALL old cars......not just pre war. Demand for cars is on a downhill slide.......so supply will almost always exceed demand from now on. People who wanted a Buick can now easily afford a Packard.........so the entire market will feel downward pressure in ways hard to predict.........buy what you like, and then you don't have to worry about it. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
28 Chrysler Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said: You could have bought this finished car for a fraction of the restoration costs. Of course, the clown car paint job probably cut its value in half. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1934-packard-twelve-1107-club-sedan/ Matt Please give warning to us about the colors, for us with sensitive eyes. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 1 hour ago, edinmass said: Someone already made a "rod" out of an identical 100 point 12 about 15 years ago. Also recently done to a Pierce Arrow production silver arrow. It's too rough for the rod guys....look at the front doors literally falling apart. Its coach built.......and I bet more than 50 percent of the wood needs replacement. With very little demand for parts, there is no realistic way to sell the car at a number that would be expected by most sellers. Market dynamics are changing across the board on ALL old cars......not just pre war. Demand for cars is on a downhill slide.......so supply will almost always exceed demand from now on. People who wanted a Buick can now easily afford a Packard.........so the entire market will feel downward pressure in ways hard to predict.........buy what you like, and then you don't have to worry about it. I believe demand will increase significantly as prices significantly drop, at least for the more interesting of the prewar and immediate postwar cars (I'm not talking about the .01 percenters, where interest thus values remain high). Interest in regular sedans may have a much harder time even when prices drop. The club sedan body style, however, is not a regular sedan, and I think interest will return faster. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 the mummie is a great Street Rod candidate .........have seen many like this sold for more street rod dollars than for restoration,if sold fairly cheap......the guy can do ok ....maybe quite well selling off all the dash gauges,steering wheel parts,interior trim and handles etc......all components from the wheels to the engine ,suspension ......radiator even lights.....sold on ebay and elsewhere to keep other originals going........down to bare shell of a body on frame and then use ready available items and modern powertrain ....the body wood is commonly redone with square metal tubing etc......i can picture this one at the Vegas SEMA show with body tastefully restyled for the streetrod world.....many are a work of art.....and provide a lot of enjoyment getting driven triple the miles that this shows on the oldometer when finished.....and in the end maybe that is ok....it gets recycled all around.....and not into rebar for concrete.........its only up to us to if one of us buys it to save.......a guy with a lot of years left could buy it cheap also and just keep it stored until the right opportunity comes along...... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAKerry Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 That interior looks so nasty that someone couldnt even stomach cleaning it out! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramaton Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Just a question out of curiosity. I know absolutely nothing about these cars. All of my experience is with six cylinder Chevys, small block Chevys and a couple flathead six Mopars, pretty simple cars. Why is it so expensive to overhaul one of these engines? Just curious. Thanks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 42 minutes ago, kramaton said: Just a question out of curiosity. I know absolutely nothing about these cars. All of my experience is with six cylinder Chevys, small block Chevys and a couple flathead six Mopars, pretty simple cars. Why is it so expensive to overhaul one of these engines? Just curious. Thanks Complexity. Few people left with the expertise to do them. Lots of machine work. I'm sure it is a 50-75K job these days. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 If these cars are so wonderfully built, why would it need a lot of machine work? New rings and bearings, if that. No, I have never seen one, let alone worked on one. But it is just an engine, after all is said and done! 😁😁 Ben 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Bloom Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) I see this car from a slightly different point of view. for a farmer or guy who owns an industrial warehouse or factory and has virtually unlimited storage...... a place you could have a beer or coffee with your buddies and collect all kinds of crazy stuff inside and never fill it up, this might be a really cool piece of garage art for <$5,000. I’ve paid close to that for some nice 20 footer visible gas pumps/signage. And this car is way cooler/more interesting than a visible gas pump. Edited February 3 by John Bloom (see edit history) 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Automotive machine shops these days have their hands full with work that they can quickly { relatively speaking } turn over and make their profit on. New car/ light truck cost has gone thru the roof so more and more people repairing their older cars/ light trucks in order to save at least some money. An engine like this becomes a total one off for 99.99% of the shops out there, and lots of lost hours just learning about the thing and sourcing what few parts are available off the shelf. Probably everything except gaskets { hopefully at that } are going to a custom order / built to order situation with a big wait for delivery. Shops can't afford to have a " project " engine taking up shop space for months and months on end waiting for parts. Most shops only have so much space available for the day to day , profit generating part of the business. So all these " very non mainstream " engines end up at one of the handful of shops that can actually take on work like this and send back a properly completed engine to the customer. Those very specialized shops don't come cheap. People with enough disposable income to own a car like a Packard 12 are way more concerned with getting the job done properly than what the job costs. I expect the few people out there who do work on engines like this make a very good living. No different than pre war Bugatti, V12 Ferrari's, 300 SL Mercedes , and similar cars / engines. If the final cost matters you are not the person these cars are intended for. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramair Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 1 hour ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: If these cars are so wonderfully built, why would it need a lot of machine work? New rings and bearings, if that. No, I have never seen one, let alone worked on one. But it is just an engine, after all is said and done! 😁😁 Ben These engines really were built wonderfully. At the factory after assembly they would put them on a test stand and power the engine with an electric motor for 100 hours, then they would run it on its own power for a 100 hours. The engine was then disassembled and inspected for wear or problems. The next step was to install the engine in its chassis, a test engineer would then put some miles at the Packard proving grounds, I have been told that all twelves were given a sticker in the glove box with a engineers signature, I would love to see one of those. if these cars are driven regularly and properly maintained they were good for over a 100,000 miles when other engines would have worn engine at 50,000. There are a couple of issues that happen to these engines over the years that can be a killer, both caused by neglect or deferred maintenance. These engines really needed their oil pans dropped every year or two as sludge is the enemy of the valve silencer system. Packard put a lot of moving parts in the valve train, which was a system that they paid Cadillac a royalty on. I’ve been told that if you lay out all the pieces including the roller cam followers and pull out all the needle bearings and count all pieces the number is 1,200. Then imagine this all sits on a shelf at the heart of the engine most of the time in a pile of sludge that requires a lot of disassembly to get to. To me what has damaged a lot of these engines has happened because owners do not realize that the front timing cover and heads are aluminum which requires extra diligence in keeping the coolant filled with proper anti corrosion chemicals. Many twelves have had replacement iron heads installed, but the silent killer is the timing cover as when they eat through you now have mixed oil and water which makes short order of the engine mechanicals. It is a major job to replace it and I believe there is only one guy making that part which requires huge amount of machine work. Roughly $5,000 for the part and probably similar amount to install. I won’t bore this group unless asked, with all the details and differences that create huge problems during the machining and overhaul of this engine. Ten years ago there were maybe 10 people that could be trusted to do this engine right, now there are maybe 6. I know a couple of owners that have done the work themselves, I think to myself that they should probably go to Vegas while they still have that level of luck. I bet that if you had a engine that needed everything including crankshaft work a machinist could put in close to 500 hours into the overhaul. There are a few restoration guys on this forum that play in the works if the twelve, perhaps they have a story or two? 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) Last few weeks………..V-16………oil pan and transmission overhaul. Just add time and dollars. Forty years of experience doesn’t hurt either. I’m getting too old for this heavy work. Flywheel wasn’t too bad, but the double disk clutch must have been 120 pounds, and with only one arm it felt like a ton. (Thanks Phil) The transmission tipped the scales at 490 pounds. Oil pan was one piece cast aluminum, fifty inches long, and 45 pounds. Worst part of the job? Someone glued the oil pan on twenty years ago with super goop. It took fifteen hours to get the pan off without cracking the casting. There are only 32 known late series over head valve V-16s left today. (No torque tube.) Edited February 3 by edinmass (see edit history) 8 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramair Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Here are a few pictures of a disassembled twelve a few interesting features of this engine , you will notice that the valves come into the top of the block at almost horizontal, Packard then angles down the block so it is one of the few engines that top of block was not 90 degrees to the bore, in the old days it required a special wedge plate to be able to use a boring bar. There is a theory that Packard did this to be able to run compression ratio up to 7 to 1 , most flat heads require room for the valve to open hence low compression ratio. Last picture is a slightly worn timing cover, you can see the pitting caused by corrosion, 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) Ed , you might as well be working on marine diesels and marine gensets like I did for 30+ years. The British Paxman gensets I worked on quite a bit for the first 15 years or so were quite a bit like these engines in overall concept. About 50% bigger , but easily as complex. The main engines were way bigger. even the tools were often a 2 person lift. Here is a typical Paxman. They were about 650 H.P. at 1200 R.P.M. Edited February 3 by 1912Staver (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 A nice cut away. Ours were a bit newer version, this one is the NA version. Ours had a pair of big Holset turbo's. Under heavy load it would all glow in a amusing manner. Then you knew it was time to get the stand by unit on the board tout sweet. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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