Pierce Arrow

[60FlatTop]

16 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Aluminum of the 1920s was rather primitive, and has often deteriorated over the years.

Just an aside, the original membership list of the Rolls-Royce Owner's Club came from a list of potential buyers for reproduction Silver Ghost cylinder heads. They were about 30 year old cars at the time.

[60FlatTop]

13 hours ago, West Peterson said:

But to some... that is the fun.

 

And there is no hard and fast rule that it ever has to be completed. The previous owner obviously knew that.

[leomara]

I should have been more specific in my comment.  Sure, all cars eventually have their headlights moved into the front fenders, I just do not care for the style when applied to 1920s - early 1930s cars.  On another note I believe that Pierce coupe would make a fine restoration candidate.  It's quite an automobile.

[JACK M]

11 hours ago, Grimy said:

use a sacrificial anode. 

This would be a good idea. My experience is with boats. And yes, we use them all the time.

I suspect that someone somewhere knows how to bring that over to automobiles.

Maybe thru a casting plug or radiator cap. They need replacing on a regular basis.

You may have one in your water heater in your RV that you don't even know about.

I could tell you lots of funny stories about how some badly wired marinas will actually turn into a huge battery of sorts.

I had a guy that brought his aluminum car topper in because it was rotting away. Turns out he was chaining it to a poorly grounded metal light post.

Galvanic corrosion.

 

sacrificial anodes for corrosion protection - Search (bing.com)

 

[JACK M]

Sacrificial anodes are a type of cathodic protection system used to protect metal structures from corrosion. The anode is made from a metal alloy with a more “active” voltage (more negative electrochemical potential) than the metal of the structure it is protecting (the cathode). The difference in potential between the two metals means the sacrificial anode material corrodes in preference to the structure. This effectively stops the oxidation reactions on the metal of the structure being protection. There must be two other conditions existing besides the anode and the cathode for the sacrificial anode method to work. There must be a return current path for the electrons to flow from the anode to the material it is protecting (being in physical contact is the usual path) and an electrolyte (water, humidity) to convey the electrons. Sacrificial anodes generally come in three metals: magnesium, aluminum, and zinc¹. Magnesium has the most negative electropotential of the three and is more suitable for on-shore pipelines where the electrolyte (soil or water) resistivity is higher. Zinc and aluminum are generally used in salt water, where the resistivity is generally lower. Typical uses are for the hulls of ships and boats, offshore pipelines and production platforms, in salt-water-cooled marine engines, on small boat propellers and rudders, and for the internal surface of storage tanks².

 

I did not write this, I got it off of the web so it must be right. LOL

Edited August 16, 2023 by JACK M (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

As long as the price stays reasonable, what's not to like. A great looking car in my opinion. Get a rough model 80 as a parts car and take it from there. I know Ed knows PA's inside out, but fewer and fewer of us these days can afford a senior series Pierce. And much less one with a attractive body style.

Just renovate not  "restore ". Then enjoy it for the next 20 years. Up here in the wilds of Canada this model 81 would pass for a really special car to most old car guys I know. I can count on one hand the number of PA's in use in Western Canada these days. Every one regardless of model or body style is looked at as a 4 star { at least } car around here.

[wayne sheldon]

I like the car! In my current stage and position in life, I would not be a good candidate to care for it. I have neither the time nor the money to give it the care it deserves. Besides, I already have five or so project piles that I need to try to finish to some usable extent.

This Pierce Arrow is in almost exactly the condition the 1929 Reo was in when I bought it while I was still in high school. I got it running, and sorted well enough to enjoy driving it for several years. 

However, I later sold that Reo as I began to realize I really wanted cars a bit earlier than that. I would have the same problem with this Pierce Arrow coupe. I mostly really like the Brass and Nickel era cars and history. Some of the Nickel Era group activities cut off acceptance at 1927. As much as I would like this car? I would dislike having it and then not be able to use it for a Nickel Era Group activity. 

 

At the risk of further thread drift. For those not familiar with the various "eras" of collector cars. Several "Nickel Era" clubs or groups do have later cutoff years! There is no one significant date to apply. However, the technological advancement that made the more durable chrome plating practical (copper undercoating) came about around 1926 (again, no specific one date or even year). A handful of automobile manufacturers (including GM's Oldsmobile!) began applying the new process chrome plating in 1927. For 1928, nearly half of automobile manufacturers were using the new process chrome plating. Even Ford on the new model A used some chrome plating, although the most obvious items like headlamps and radiator shell were still nickel.

There were of course stragglers. My 1929 Reo? Was an early model year car, and all original plating on it was nickel! Although by the about middle of the model year, chrome was replacing the nickel on Reo. And there were always stragglers. A few cars and some customs continued using nickel clear up to WWII. And I would imagine beyond. However, effectively, the "nickel" era ended with 1927. Personally, I prefer 1927 as the Nickel era cutoff. For most, chrome was the rule in 1928. The "era" was over.

Several "nickel" era groups cutoff between 1930 and 1932. So, in addition to all the Prewar, CCCA, and Pierce Arrow Society activities this car would be great for? It would qualify for a lot of Nickel Era stuff.

 

Regardless. This Pierce Arrow is a car that I think should be saved and used. I would figure on replacing the head and the connecting rods for the reasons given. Clean it up, sort it for driving, and enjoy it often. I am not sure about the paint. What color was this coupe originally? The yellow under the black might be savable? One would need to examine the car closely to determine that.

I haven't noticed a link to the auction listing? What condition is the interior?

I am going to be curious to see what it sells for.

[edinmass]

Simple fact is the Series 80/81 cars are falling in value by quite a significant percentages. Overall general run of the mill CCCA cars are soft at best. Good stuff is on fire. It’s never been more affordable to buy a nickel car or closed car. There is no shortage of decent turn key cars available. With todays busy lifestyles, crazy increases in restoration costs, and the evolving collector car market……….any car that needs any work must be looked at with a critical eye. I have restored basket cases…….fact is 99 percent of the shops can’t get a basket case done correctly. A very few…..but the time and numbers are staggering. Hell 2/3’s of the people here don’t have time to do 20 percent of the chores around the house. Where are they going to find time to resurrect a mess? To take a car that’s rusty, incomplete, and needs wood is just ten times harder and more expensive than starting with a solid car. We won’t even talk about concours restorations that ARE COMPETITIVE. In the past three years, I saw a V-16 Cadillac that was rough get done to Pebble quality. It was way over a million dollars for the restoration. Way over. After years in the hobby, wisdom eventually seeps in………..I don’t have time for the basket cases anymore. I get why people look and dream……….but here is a challenge……..how many home restorations are being done now……not 1968 Mustangs where you buy everything you need……I do this for a living, know most of the suppliers and outside service companies, and have faster access to them more than most people. Getting stuff done is insanely difficult today…….we won’t even mention time tables and budget. Buy the best car you can afford…….it’s much cheaper and more enjoyable that way.

Edited August 16, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Den41Buick]

Very wise advice Ed. 

[Fordy]

I have restored quite a few cars that have had way more financial input than what I eventually got (or expect to get). These cars were an affordable entry into the hobby, classically described as "basket cases" and the challenge of doing the work and doing it well to the best of my ability is more important to me than "value". Buy a cheap car and spend a little as finances allow results in eventually spending a lot and if you had it in a lump sum buying a better car is indeed better. But little bits every so often are more affordable than one big sum.

Even the lowliest of makes and models are worthy of preservation, my local club has people who look down their noses at them and the owners, but isn't the passion and pride of ownership all the same in the end?

Regarding this Pierce, I hope someone is prepared to step up and save it without the "oh it will cost way more than it's worth!" drama. Sometimes the cost of the journey really doesn't matter but the experiences and adventures whilst making it.

Steve

[Grimy]

26 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said:

Several "Nickel Era" clubs or groups do have later cutoff years!

The Nickel Era Touring Registry (NETR, an affiliated registry in HCCA) accepts through 1932.  We're doing 600 miles in six days out of St George and Bryce Canyon UT the last week of September.  NETR does one long tour per year somewhere in the West (CA, WA, ID, now UT) but did have one in Iowa a few years back.

 

Our (mostly NorCal) "South Bay Vintage Touring Club," a Regional Group of HCCA, formerly known for 30+ years as Nickel Age Touring Club (NATC-we had to change our name to remove "nickel" due to NETR already based in Calif) no longer practices the very strict standard of 30 yrs ago when your car had to be inspected for compliance (you had a year to convert any erroneously chromed parts back to nickel).  We are all aging and accept, unofficially, cars though about 1935 for tours.  We focus on the fellowship and invite widows and those who have sold their cars due to age or infirmity to our activities, and get them rides.

 

We have no judging, no publications, no membership cards--these days we do one or two 3-4-day tours per year and drive the cars!  In May we did a 4 day tour based out of Santa Cruz, CA and were able to have an underground tour of the Boardwalk's carnival rides just before the Boardwalk opened for the season.  I've been the membership bubba for almost 20 years now, as nobody else wants to do it, which is fine with me.

 

You would probably be correct to say that we are dying breed in this Bay Area metropolitan area for a number of (largely sociological and economic) reasons, but we do get some new blood almost every year--not necessarily people under 35, but rather those whose careers are at a point where they need not spend all their waking hours on a business treadmill.

 

I'll answer Ed's rant later.

[3macboys]

I think this car serves as a very important reminder that this is a hobby, not an investment scheme.  This car will be bought based on the heart and not the head and it will be a passion for someone, but isn't that the point of a hobby.  Some people fish, some play golf and others travel to every ballpark in the majors, heck some pay thousands to go see Taylor Swift with tens of thousands of other people - do any of those make sense financially, absolutely not.  However, does it make sense from the passion perspective, absolutely, and that's the point of this old car world.  Sure, there are those select few who play in the big dog sand box who keep track of every dime spent etc but the vast majority of us play in the empty lot, scrape together what we can along the way and pick away at the car bit by bit and live by the "Good Enough" motto and have a ball doing it!  

 

Just my 2 cents - oh wait I need those back for one of the cars,

 

Don

[32tatra]

I hope this car gets this much attention on auction day, has it has, here on the AACA web site!!!!

[Matt Harwood]

I call cars like this the "fixer-upper fallacy." Why, with just a little elbow grease, I could have that car running and be enjoying myself behind the wheel.

 

It doesn't work that way.

 

Regardless of the merit of the "investment vs. return" argument, there's no denying that there are 15 or 20 $1000 jobs on a car like that, even if you're a great mechanic. Leave the cosmetics and interior alone and you're still going to be spending a ton of money on it, there's no way around it. Need a radiator? That's $1000+ worth of "can't do it yourself" work. Tires are another few thousand bucks--can't make your own. Exhaust system? Another $1000. Better add a wiring harness, too--yep, $1000. Maybe you're clever and can rebuild an obsolete carburetor, but what if it needs unobtainium pot metal parts? Can you get them? Make them? Cracked cylinder head? Bad babbit bearings? Transmission gears? What's a job you can handle and which one represents the point of no return?

 

How well does it have to run to satisfy you? Is just limping around the yard belching smoke good enough or do you want to actually use it as a car? Making it run and making it run well are two very different things with two different levels of commitment.

 

The fallacy is that we, as good amateur mechanics with knowledge and resources, should be able to make that car run and drive properly with some simple tinkering and patience. That's never the case. On an oddball car, the frustration of parts scarcity is a very real problem. There's an emotional toll that a car like this exacts and it can easily outlast you, I guarantee it. How long will you stay with it when it becomes clear that only a big pile of cash will get you across the finish line? How long will it be fun if you keep getting stranded in a broken car?

 

Financial cost is but one aspect of the fixer-upper fallacy. A car like this with rare parts, unknown levels of breakage, and low desirability is always going to demand more than you expect in every way. I don't care how good you are, a car like this will fight you all the way until you surrender or spend so much that you have no choice but to bury yourself in it.

 

It most certainly is not a few carburetor tweaks and fluid changes away from being ready to use. It will cause heartbreak and frustration before it gives you what you want, which may be never. That's a very high cost indeed.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

Ed, and Grimy, I would never question your experience or judgement of a car like this. But I can't help feeling you are a little harsh. I see an old car that is complete and original, right down to the hood ornament and Pines winter front. I don't see any obvious rust holes although I do see surface rust. It appears to be a car that has been in indoor storage for many years. If there was ever a desirable body style, and a car that could be restored, this is it. What it would take to do so, and whether it would "pay" I don't know. But it seems a shame to write it off.   Best case, if the wood is good and the engine complete and not frozen wonder what it would cost to make a nice driver, not a concours winner, out of it?

 

Later... went back and clicked on the link to the auction site. They have more photos, and a video of the engine starting and running. Seems to run ok without knocks or bangs. How long it might continue to do so, who knows.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Dr B]

25 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

I call cars like this the "fixer-upper fallacy." Why, with just a little elbow grease, I could have that car running and be enjoying myself behind the wheel.

 

It doesn't work that way.

 

Regardless of the merit of the "investment vs. return" argument, there's no denying that there are 15 or 20 $1000 jobs on a car like that, even if you're a great mechanic. Leave the cosmetics and interior alone and you're still going to be spending a ton of money on it, there's no way around it. Need a radiator? That's $1000+ worth of "can't do it yourself" work. Tires are another few thousand bucks--can't make your own. Exhaust system? Another $1000. Better add a wiring harness, too--yep, $1000. Maybe you're clever and can rebuild an obsolete carburetor, but what if it needs unobtainium pot metal parts? Can you get them? Make them? Cracked cylinder head? Bad babbit bearings? Transmission gears? What's a job you can handle and which one represents the point of no return?

 

How well does it have to run to satisfy you? Is just limping around the yard belching smoke good enough or do you want to actually use it as a car? Making it run and making it run well are two very different things with two different levels of commitment.

 

The fallacy is that we, as good amateur mechanics with knowledge and resources, should be able to make that car run and drive properly with some simple tinkering and patience. That's never the case. On an oddball car, the frustration of parts scarcity is a very real problem. There's an emotional toll that a car like this exacts and it can easily outlast you, I guarantee it. How long will you stay with it when it becomes clear that only a big pile of cash will get you across the finish line? How long will it be fun if you keep getting stranded in a broken car?

 

Financial cost is but one aspect of the fixer-upper fallacy. A car like this with rare parts, unknown levels of breakage, and low desirability is always going to demand more than you expect in every way. I don't care how good you are, a car like this will fight you all the way until you surrender or spend so much that you have no choice but to bury yourself in it.

 

It most certainly is not a few carburetor tweaks and fluid changes away from being ready to use. It will cause heartbreak and frustration before it gives you what you want, which may be never. That's a very high cost indeed.

 

 

Hey, someone took off the rose colored glasses! Unfortunately extremely true! Even "good" cars can become money pits or "one thing after another" issues. No guarantees in this hobby.

 

Robert

[edinmass]

Guys….I actually like the car……just not the down side and all the unknowns that I am familiar with on that series Pierce. I am also figuring in how much time, money, and effort a 37 mph car is worth to me………and in my world, it’s not much. There are great options that are less of a gamble, and much better drivers…….maybe not a coupe…….but bunches of stuff. We all can have only so many cars, and only have a certain amount of garage time. Add in everything, and man…….the little Pierce coupe could be a home run or a triple play. 

[TAKerry]

As much as I love the style and history of the pre war cars and think that this is a beautiful automobile worthy of a restoration, reading posts like this further confirm that I will keep my restoration focus to no later than the 60's. 

[60FlatTop]

8 hours ago, edinmass said:

I am also figuring in how much time, money, and effort a 37 mph car is worth to me

 

It is a city car, designed to be one. There wasn't much of anywhere to go outside of the affluent home neighborhoods and downtown events. A luxury car like that wouldn't fit into rural towns. A coupe would not be the primary driver for a wealthy family at the time. A 40 MPH car with a high numerical gearset would be just the thing for city driving. Shifting sure isn't necessary. If you didn't anticipate your stop well enough you might have to downshift to help slow it. Otherwise high and reverse would do fine.

 

If that car had stayed in Buffalo in 1928 it may have left the city for a ride to Youngstown or Olcott Beach to pick up a load of Canadian booze.

 

It is a city dweller car for sure.

[Rusty_OToole]

This was a 75HP 288 cu in six cylinder car, comparable to the Cadillac,  smaller Packard,  or some of the larger medium priced cars like Hudson and Studebaker. This was a large, expensive, powerful car for the times.  I suspect the customer who bought one in 1928 would have been surprised to be told his car was not capable of hiway travel and was inferior to the new Ford Model A in performance.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Grimy]

12 hours ago, edinmass said:

Guys….I actually like the car……just not the down side and all the unknowns that I am familiar with on that series Pierce. I am also figuring in how much time, money, and effort a 37 mph car is worth to me………and in my world, it’s not much. There are great options that are less of a gamble, and much better drivers…….maybe not a coupe…….but bunches of stuff. We all can have only so many cars, and only have a certain amount of garage time. Add in everything, and man…….the little Pierce coupe could be a home run or a triple play. 

Not a 37 mph car unless it has the 4.88 gears.  I had a 1925 Series 80 coupe with the predominant 4.45 gears for 21 years and cruised comfortably at 45 mph.  I wrote this yesterday about S80/81 stock gearing and the effects of a Mitchell OD:  "I added a Mitchell OD to my 1925 Pierce-Arrow Series 80 which was cursed with the deepest diff ratio, 4.88 (other ratios were 4.45 and 4.64, assigned by where delivered with no customer option).  That car was comfortable at 36-37 mph but the engine was screaming at 40-41 mph.  Several of us made a group buy of 26% OD ratio units (the available 36% would be 'way too much).  It was a relatively easy installation:  a driveline shop made up two short driveshafts, u-joints and flanges for about $250, and the original driveshaft now stands in a corner.  Comfortable cruising is now 48-49 mph, and to save you the math the effective final drive ratio is 3.61.  Occasionally I need to get on an interstate or other high-speed highway for a limited time, and this does the job.  I do not wish to exceed 45-50 in one of these cars.  For those of you who have driven the Fandango Pass road in Modoc County (rutted corkscrew upgrade at its east end), I can tell you that the gear of choice is 1st OD."

 

To me, wood condition is the predominant consideration in whether to acquire the subject car, and one would (intentional pun) need to inspect, or have inspected, the car prior to the auction.  These cars have sheet aluminum bodies over hardwood (ash) frames, with sheet steel used for fenders, hoods, and aprons.  If I were 20 years younger 🙂 I'd consider taking on this project if the wood was good enough.  I'd also plan on acquiring a S80 or (preferably) a S81 sedan as a parts car--and those are around.  In almost 30 years of Pierce-Arrow Society membership, I've never seen another S81 coupe like this one, and its lines are far better than the S80 (1925-27) coupes.  As @Matt Harwood said, there are a number of $1,000 projects such as tires, radiator, fuel (tank and vacuum tank), etc.  The engine at least runs per the video.  Valves in stainless are available from Egge, NORS valve springs were sourced for mine from Then & Now, gaskets from Olson's, Cadillac 346 pistons and rings can be used, etc.  It is important to have as complete a car as possible to start with.

 

The S80 and S81 are excellent entry-level "Full Classic" cars, because they are inexpensive, reasonably plentiful, and have excellent tech support in PAS, although very few parts are being reproduced.  Although I now have some Pierces more acceptable to my good friend @edinmass (who visited for an hour Saturday enroute to Pebble), I enjoy my S80 5-p sedan driver, owned since 1994, and which I've run on at least ten Modoc Tours, as much as any of them except my 1918.  Of course, one needs to be content with a 45 mph platform, and the S80/81 platform was at the end of its technological life, soon to be replaced in 1929 with an exclusively 8-cyl line.

 

Thank God for the very few people like Nicola Bulgari who have the resources and the will to restore "ordinary" cars from the 1930s and early 1940s that otherwise would have been broken up for parts long ago.  My good friend Ed has the perspective that comes from his focus on the very finest in the collector car world and his years of experience.  Cars were never a source of income to me.  Many people on this site, and I myself, are willing to have good drivers that would not stand the chance of a snowball in hell to make the field at Pebble or other major concours.  In 2023 (vs 1961 or so when I got into this delightful *HOBBY* and joined AACA), what's available to "my kind of people" are either (1) older, to-some-degree-deteriorated restorations or (2) cars long held in the hope of fixing them up, and now merely semi-barn/-warehouse finds.  Once they are broken up, they are gone forever.  I have sought and acquired cars in category (1) above.  Along the way, I was able to acquire my 1930 roadster which had an excellent restoration by its previous owner, and which took a (distant) 3rd at Pebble in 2010 ten years and 7,000 miles later in an admittedly weak class largely full of older restorations of LeBaron-bodied Pierces.  (That was a huge and wonderful surprise to me, and I've said that a mortician wouldn't have been able to remove the SE grin from my face for the next month.)  To be clear, nothing else I have is worthy of showing at that venue, but I'm not afraid to drive them and suffer a rock chip.   And drive them I do--that is the fun for me.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Grimy
fixed omitted words (see edit history)

[peezduk]

18 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

I call cars like this the "fixer-upper fallacy." Why, with just a little elbow grease, I could have that car running and be enjoying myself behind the wheel.

 

It doesn't work that way.

 

Regardless of the merit of the "investment vs. return" argument, there's no denying that there are 15 or 20 $1000 jobs on a car like that, even if you're a great mechanic. Leave the cosmetics and interior alone and you're still going to be spending a ton of money on it, there's no way around it. Need a radiator? That's $1000+ worth of "can't do it yourself" work. Tires are another few thousand bucks--can't make your own. Exhaust system? Another $1000. Better add a wiring harness, too--yep, $1000. Maybe you're clever and can rebuild an obsolete carburetor, but what if it needs unobtainium pot metal parts? Can you get them? Make them? Cracked cylinder head? Bad babbit bearings? Transmission gears? What's a job you can handle and which one represents the point of no return?

 

How well does it have to run to satisfy you? Is just limping around the yard belching smoke good enough or do you want to actually use it as a car? Making it run and making it run well are two very different things with two different levels of commitment.

 

The fallacy is that we, as good amateur mechanics with knowledge and resources, should be able to make that car run and drive properly with some simple tinkering and patience. That's never the case. On an oddball car, the frustration of parts scarcity is a very real problem. There's an emotional toll that a car like this exacts and it can easily outlast you, I guarantee it. How long will you stay with it when it becomes clear that only a big pile of cash will get you across the finish line? How long will it be fun if you keep getting stranded in a broken car?

 

Financial cost is but one aspect of the fixer-upper fallacy. A car like this with rare parts, unknown levels of breakage, and low desirability is always going to demand more than you expect in every way. I don't care how good you are, a car like this will fight you all the way until you surrender or spend so much that you have no choice but to bury yourself in it.

 

It most certainly is not a few carburetor tweaks and fluid changes away from being ready to use. It will cause heartbreak and frustration before it gives you what you want, which may be never. That's a very high cost indeed.

 

 

While I understand your aspect on a car like this, How many cars would have gone to the crusher or been street rodded if everyone looked at it from this angle. Is the fate of this one a hot rod or parts?? I Hope not. 

[edinmass]

You can’t save them all, and fact of the matter is many aren’t worth saving

[old car fan]

Ed ,the Buick  ,White, floor sweepings.We have recomissiqoned  many early  cars.I do not understand  why you would  dog a car, regardless. Any car is worth the  effort, regardless  of money. List the cars you  own, not the other  wallet. You are a Asset  to the forum, but somebody's  10. Grand  car ,is   gold. 

[edinmass]

 

55 minutes ago, old car fan said:

Ed ,the Buick  ,White, floor sweepings.We have recomissiqoned  many early  cars.I do not understand  why you would  dog a car, regardless. Any car is worth the  effort, regardless  of money. List the cars you  own, not the other  wallet. You are an  rAsset  to the forum, but somebody's  10. Grand  car ,is   gold. 

Not dogging it……said in my first post I liked it………just calling it the way I see it. With shifting markets, the car makes no sense………and I have done hopeless projects and actually finished them. Today, the chance of that car getting done or even sorted for the road is almost nil. There are better, easier projects that are more drivable with less effort. No every decision in our life makes sense…….nor should it. But I know those cars, and the effort required to make them a driver, never mind restoring it. Example………see photo below. A car purchased over five years ago for the same money we are talking about as the Series 81…….and a much better car and opportunity….photo is After we cleaned it up and put used tires on it.

 

Remember…..I have a 1915 T that is all original…………..I’m ok with the “entry type cars” …….I have no issues with cosmetic condition…….sorting a Series 80/81 is way more expensive than 99 percent of the people here comprehend. It’s fifty years of experience speaking. 

 

It will be interesting to see what it sells for…..and even more interesting is…….will it be a Pierce guy with open eyes? Or more likely a newbie who gets burned and falls flat on his face. Time will tell.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Grimy]

2 minutes ago, edinmass said:

sorting a Series 80/81 is way more expensive than 99 percent of the people here comprehend. It’s fifty years of experience speaking. 

Ed, have you ever OWNED a S80 or S81?

[edinmass]

13 minutes ago, Grimy said:

Ed, have you ever OWNED a S80 or S81?

Yes, and have worked on a dozen. Have a take out running engine for one sitting on a pallet in the event one pops up that I like. Also have a 33/36 engine. Like I said, I would own one, but in my humble opinion for what they are……..a T or an A makes much more sense. 

[Grimy]

1 minute ago, edinmass said:

Yes, and have worked on a dozen. Have a take out running engine for one sitting on a pallet in the event one pops up that I like. Also have a 33/36 engine. Like I said, I would own one, but in my humble opinion for what they are……..a T or an A makes much more sense. 

You crack me up! 

Have you toured any of your owned cars or were they flips--those that ran?

[Fordy]

I think there is always going to be a divide between people who seek financial rewards and people who simply do things because it needs to be done.

[old car fan]

I would  love to have it settled  in the barn.If it were, Ed would  be my first call.Just saying ,everything  has someone's name on it,if I were 50,this would. I LOVE it.

[edinmass]

Getting buried in a car is fine, if done with eyes wide open, been there done that. There are a LOT of parts in a PIERCE compared to most other makes, and they are a BUNCH of work. Looking at the investment in time, I would pass on any serious Series 80/81 project…….the same effort can be put into a car that is a much better driver……like a Pierce 8 or 12. It’s all good………as time slips through the hourglass……….I only have so much ambition and ability to get things done.

[Rusty_OToole]

This thread has been an eye opener. I always knew the Pierce was a well built, expensive car. Did not comprehend what this means when it comes to restore or repair one, compared to a similar mass produced car like, say, a Buick six Studebaker big six or a Hudson Super Six.

 

It sounds as if it would cost twice as much in time and money, compared to one of the mass produced cars.

[Grimy]

7 minutes ago, edinmass said:

I only have so much ambition and ability to get things done.

Stop giving me straight lines, Ed!  🙂

[Grimy]

1 minute ago, Rusty_OToole said:

This thread has been an eye opener. I always knew the Pierce was a well built, expensive car. Did not comprehend what this means when it comes to restore or repair one, compared to a similar mass produced car like, say, a Buick six Studebaker big six or a Hudson Super Six.

 

It sounds as if it would cost twice as much in time and money, compared to one of the mass produced cars.

Rusty, not necessarily--paint and plating costs will be close to the marques you mentioned, upholstery material and labor for fancier effects may be more.  The Series 80 5-p sedan was $3,850 at the factory in 1925.  The S80 (junior series) was built with the same degree of craftsmanship and the same quality of materials as their big brothers.  These cars were single-valve sixes, 289 cid (3.5 x 5 bore & stroke) was the dual-valve T-head 414 cid sixes in the S33/36 cars.

 

"Some people" have a lot of disdain for the S80/81 but haven't driven them more than 25,000 miles as I have, and on which experience I base and maintain my admiration for them.

[Rusty_OToole]

Grimy I tend to agree with you even though I have never sat in a Pierce let alone drove one. In those days the top luxury car makers frequently had 2 lines, a giant chassis for the chauffeur driven limousine trade and a smaller car for the owner driver. Rolls Royce 40/50 and 20/25, Packard V12 or straight eight and six in the teens and twenties, Pierce dual valve  and 80 or 81.

 

The big jobs are certainly a thrill and draw the attention at shows but the smaller ones may be more pleasant to own and drive.

[Grimy]

5 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

The big jobs are certainly a thrill and draw the attention at shows but the smaller ones may be more pleasant to own and drive.

The S80/81 rode on a 130" wheelbase; the S33/36 had a 138" wheelbase.  The larger series got lengthier when 8-cyl engines began:  1929-143", 1930-144", 1931-147".

[billorn]

Can the op give us the auction info? Maybe someone here can buy it and show everyone how easy it is to get it running again.

[Mark Wetherbee]

So, my 31 Pierce was purchased off of eBay for the initial investment of $15,000 and an additional $1,000 to get it transported to me. It was a RUNNING car and I drove it the day after it arrived maybe 40 miles for a picnic. The first thing I noticed were that the brakes were tight — by which I mean the cables were bound up and they didn’t work well at all... The next two weeks were spent going through the entire system by disassembly and cleaning everything I could and replacing the brake linings. Then we took the car to a local show about 50-60 miles away. The engine ran a little rough and was woefully short on compression, so valves are next. Well that turned into a two year overhaul of the engine including custom pistons with rings ($1250),   new rod bearings ($1000) as well as valves and guides ($600), the engine gasket set for my engine was a little over $500 and a carburetor kit was $125 so it all adds up quickly. While waiting for different engine parts I replaced all the wiring with a new harness ($1100), new fuel line (maybe $150 but many hours), tires (3 with tube and flaps $1500), the list keeps going plus did I mention lots of hours? Those hours are not being paid for which is why they call it a hobby.

 

Then there’s the missing parts, I got very lucky and found the original headlight lens ($150 and there’s one on eBay for $800 now), radiator cap ($150), gas cap ($250), taillight lenses($175 for the set of 3), correct fuel pump ($300 and I’m not even using it), a spare carburetor ($500), and a new float bowl cover ($300) that I just bought a couple weeks ago because mine looks shaky and I don’t want to be out looking for another one when I could be driving the car instead.

 

The point is, yes it might be “easy” to get running, but it doesn’t mean it will be inexpensive to do so and that is an issue someone buying this car needs to know upfront before go in and getting discouraged.

 

All that said, I would buy that car in a heartbeat if I had the room for it and you can bet I’d be just as upside down as I am with my current PA and I would have the best time doing it - and lets face it that is what it is about, having the fun…

[edinmass]

This roadster is for sale, asking 35k by a dealer with known high prices……….real market? 25k? And a roadster has a value of what………. three times a coupe? Take a look at the condition…………and now we see why cars needing extensive work that were once project cars are now parts cars or garage art. This ad was listed today………

Ten years ago, it would have been offered for sale at 55-65.

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Grimy]

22 minutes ago, edinmass said:

This roadster is for sale, asking 35k by a dealer with known high prices……….real market? 25k? And a roadster has a value of what………. three times a coupe? Take a look at the condition…………and now we see why cars needing extensive work that were once project cars are now parts cars or garage art. This ad was listed today………

Ten years ago, it would have been offered for sale at 55-65.

 

 

 

From their website:

 

"This 1926 Pierce Arrow Model 80 Rumble Seat Roadster is a rare and exciting find that wears an older restoration. Blue over black fenders with black interior and soft-It is now in need of mechanical commissioning and minor cosmetics. " 

 

(Translation:  It doesn't freaking run!) The subject car runs.  So the roadster's engine is a $20k question mark.  Are you feeling lucky?