A couple of indications of how automobiles are fading from modern times.

[1912Staver]

Just a couple of data points that struck me as I did a few errands today. Not directly Vintage car , but the perception of Motor Vehicles in general in the current world. 

 Dropped in to my local new car dealer today to pick up a part that they had ordered in for me. Good sized dealer, I am sure they sell a lot of cars in a year. I could barely find the parts dept. The Service receptionist said go over to that little wicket at the side and ring the bell. A parts person responded quickly enough, I expect from the Parts counter serving the Service area. 

 Point is there wasn't even a Parts Dept sign , just a small counter with a bell. Perhaps I am showing my age , but I clearly remember the later 1970's when I worked in a Dealer parts dept. Saturday especially , the public, walk in  parts counter would be staffed with 4 or 5 countermen and often several customers would be waiting in a take a number line up for their turn. A serious volume of parts sales on a typical Saturday.

I guess very few private owners actually do their own work on their cars these days. And those that do find most of what they need online.

 Second stop took me to my local public library. I decided to have a look at the Automotive section. I have noticed the selection of Automotive books at the library has been slowly shrinking over the last decade or so. At one time there were lots of Automotive books , and manuals.  Today the selection had shrunk beyond anything I could have imagined a decade or two ago.  Not one single book ! Not even a Consumer reports book. 

 Has the general public really turned its back on motor vehicles except to view them as a necessary evil ? Hold your nose and use one, but no more interest than you would have in your kitchen toaster ?

 Feeling a bit out of step with the world. 

[Peter Gariepy]

13 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

Has the general public really turned its back on motor vehicles except to view them as a necessary evil ?

No. We are tainting. (we being people on this forum, and the hobby in general)

 

The AVERAGE person could care less about the romance and history of any automobile.  Cars are NOT people's goal, transportation is. The avg person sees them serving a function, thats it. That is as true 25, 50, 75 years ago, as it is now.

 

 

 

[1937hd45]

A few months ago we were walking around town after dinner, think it was our anniversary, there in the parking lot was a brand new McClaren, I was the only one to give it a slow walk around. The world isn't interested any more. If I owned a cellphone and knew how to take a photo of it I would have. Different age groups have different interests. 

Edited December 8, 2022 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[54Coupe]

Manufacturers are doing all they can, to make it so no one can work on their own cars. 

[31nash880]

Started by taking away dip sticks.

[zepher]

1 hour ago, 54Coupe said:

Manufacturers are doing all they can, to make it so no one can work on their own cars. 

This, coupled with the fact that most people today have no idea what is under the hood of their car, is why the Parts Depts are so small and almost nonexistent. 

In the 60's and before, I would bet that most people at least did their own oil changes on cars.  Now, I bet most people wouldn't know where to begin to check the oil on their car.

[1912Staver]

As a car owner for the last 50  years, former professional mechanic, High School Shop teacher and 30 years as a Marine Engineer I can't even imagine a wet sump, I.C. engine or substantial gearbox without a dip stick. 

The propulsion engines on most of the ships I worked on were dry sump, so not  a dipstick on the crankcase. Rather they had a very large reservoir tank { often several hundred gallons of oil } , generally gravity fed from the crankcase { a few had scavenge pumps } that the pressure pump drew from. The tank level was usually monitered by a electronic gauge and verified with a sounding tape once a watch. { 2 or 3 times a day depending on the watch cycle } Those tanks normaly gained oil over time as there was a separate fresh oil supply pumped into the cylinder wall for piston ring lubrication . Some would be burned and some would end up in the crankcase. Once a week or so we would use a centrifuge to return some oil back to the clean oil storage tank. It got used up in the gensets. Big Cat's that most definitely had dipsticks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

1 hour ago, 31nash880 said:

Started by taking away dip sticks.

  And then it was the progression of bolt types. You know, metric, allen, torx, security, XZN.

[1912Staver]

Standard transmissions ? Almost never had a car { or truck } without one. At least 75 vehicles have passed through my ownership over the years , about 3 or 4 had automatics. Always sold on as soon as I could replace them. Power windows , even fewer. Only 2 come to mind and they were both Lotus Europa's. { other than the very early Europa's that had fixed plexi door glass , power windows were standard }

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[TerryB]

On many US cars manual transmissions are not even an option anymore.  That big piece of black plastic that now covers the engine is like a “keep out” barrier.  Realistically newer vehicles require much less maintenance than ever before.  Synthetic oil, lifetime spark plugs, permanently greased suspension and the like are normal.  A few people will tinker with cars as a hobby but most are just looking for reliable daily transportation.  

[Pfeil]

4 hours ago, zepher said:

This, coupled with the fact that most people today have no idea what is under the hood of their car, is why the Parts Depts are so small and almost nonexistent. 

In the 60's and before, I would bet that most people at least did their own oil changes on cars.  Now, I bet most people wouldn't know where to begin to check the oil on their car.

I go to this dealer for parts for my two daily driver cars. Although you can't see the techs parts counter from the retail side you can see the public parts counter. The parts dept is fairly large I'd say 1000 X2, it has a 2nd story. I've been in it-all of it.

 

Lamb Nissan - Prescott, AZ | Cars.com

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[46 woodie]

I can't change the oil myself on my new VW. It came with a one time use oil pan plug that requires a special removal tool and I would need to get the plug from VW, if it's available.

[Bhigdog]

1 hour ago, TerryB said:

On many US cars manual transmissions are not even an option anymore.  That big piece of black plastic that now covers the engine is like a “keep out” barrier.  Realistically newer vehicles require much less maintenance than ever before.  Synthetic oil, lifetime spark plugs, permanently greased suspension and the like are normal.  A few people will tinker with cars as a hobby but most are just looking for reliable daily transportation.  

The only time i open the hood on my grand cherokee is when it tells me it,s time to change oil. The every 1000 mile check lists for my 50,s cars are about 20 items long. 

Very few persons would opt for the good old days cars as daily drivers.

The old car hobby as a main stream hobby is doomed. Demograpics and technology will see to that....bob

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

41 minutes ago, 46 woodie said:

I can't change the oil myself on my new VW. It came with a one time use oil pan plug that requires a special removal tool and I would need to get the plug from VW, if it's available.

Snap On probably has the tool.  There are not enough VW dealers to handle the enter sold fleet of VW.  VW always had some special tool for this and that. Snap On always has an answer. 

[1912Staver]

It's happened very fast however. My 2010 Hyundai  { more or less the same car up to 2015 }. is very owner servicable. With the added bonus of a 5 speed and crank up windows, and a very easy to use radio / CD player . No entertainment tech at all , a big bonus in my eye .

Oil changes are dead easy as is everything else I have had to do to it. Brakes ,Cam belt , plugs every couple of years . A few sets of tires { I have my own tire machine }. The only time it has been back to the dealer or a shop is 1 warranty repair { crank position sensor when it was a couple of years old.} and one safety recall. 300,000 KM [ about 185, 000 miles }. Runs like a top and I don't baby it . Even has the factory clutch . For the first several years I owned it a long highway commute. When it is time to change the clutch I am sure I will find it just as easy to do as everything else on the car.

 If I could buy another new one today I would. But 2015 or so on it has been all downhill in the auto industy as far as I can tell.  Hopefully by time the Hyundai gives up the ghost I will either have my 1960 MGA  or my 1974 TVR back on the road. Not paying $20,000 + for a car with an automatic trans. Not now, not ever.

Edited December 9, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

11 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

The only time i open the hood on my grand cherokee is when it tells me it,s time to change oil. The every 1000 mile check lists for my 50,s cars are about 20 items long. 

Very few persons would opt for the good old days cars as daily drivers.

The old car hobby as a main stream hobby is doomed. Demograpics and technology will see to that....bob

 

Yes and no.  I see new car clubs starting that caters to foreign cars. I know several guys that love the older Supras. Another who is a Mazda rotary RX7 fan. This guy has not reached 30 years of age. All of these young guys tinker and tune. Turbos and air shifters. Ground effect kits. Lower suspension. Ridiculous fat tailpipe. Thankfully these are falling out of favor. These cars and clubs look nothing like the classic car clubs but there is one thing in common, we all enjoy our cars. 

[hidden_hunter]

Warranty also plays a big part, I have 7 year warranty on my high performance golf - I ain’t going to be touching it myself and risking it

[avgwarhawk]

1 hour ago, TerryB said:

On many US cars manual transmissions are not even an option anymore.  That big piece of black plastic that now covers the engine is like a “keep out” barrier.  Realistically newer vehicles require much less maintenance than ever before.  Synthetic oil, lifetime spark plugs, permanently greased suspension and the like are normal.  A few people will tinker with cars as a hobby but most are just looking for reliable daily transportation.  

Europeans love manuals. American looked for the automatic from day one!  Concerning lifetime plugs, my 2010 KIA is ready for it's first plug change....120k miles!  Crazy but great IMO.  Less maintenance on the daily driver give me more time to enjoy my old cars. 

[1912Staver]

10 minutes ago, hidden_hunter said:

Warranty also plays a big part, I have 7 year warranty on my high performance golf - I ain’t going to be touching it myself and risking it

 

I asked about that when I bought the Hyundai. I explained them I was a licenced mechanic and prefered to do my own servicing. They said no problem, just hang on to receits for service parts and do the service check off at the recommended intervals. Only had the one warranty problem, and a very simple one at that . But 0 trouble from the dealer about doing my own maintenance.

[MotiveLensPhoto]

3 hours ago, zepher said:

 

In the 60's and before, I would bet that most people at least did their own oil changes on cars.  Now, I bet most people wouldn't know where to begin to check the oil on their car.

No room to do it, an expensive brick driveway, no tools and minimal desire to get them, no proper jack outside of the basic equipment jack, (and I don't trust going under the car with it), no convenient place to dispose of the oil, and the fact that GM rebates half the cost of the oil to the dealer so paying for a dealer oil change and tire rotation is worth the $60 while I shoot the breeze with the sales staff or make more $$ per hour than I'm paying. 

 

[Graham Man]

When you rent a car in England they call the automatic transmission option the "American Tax". 

 

Yes VW has disposiable drain plugs, I just put on a new copper washer.  They use aluminum washers that gall after the first use....and leak if you don't replace them.

 

No shop classes, no Dads that have time to teach their kids how to work on cars (sometimes second generation).  My kids friends are dumbfounded when we work on our cars, they always want to help.

[Larry Schramm]

Dealers and their parts departments have brought the lower amount of business on themselves.  Many use what is called Matrix pricing which is a formula to generate a price for a part that is above the factory suggested retail price.  This can be a substantial mark up.  

 

Why go to a dealer for as an example a set of brake pads for $90.00 when you can go to your local O"Reilly's for $40.00 with a lifetime warranty.  I like OEM parts as much as the next guy, but not that much.  Plus the internet allows you to go on line for the very same OEM part for a fraction of the price that the dealer is charging.  Just IMO and experience.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[zepher]

2 hours ago, TerryB said:

On many US cars manual transmissions are not even an option anymore.

A friend of mine had to order his car from the dealer and wait 4 months because he wanted one with a manual trans instead of a CVT.

[Frank DuVal]

2 hours ago, 46 woodie said:

I can't change the oil myself on my new VW. It came with a one time use oil pan plug that requires a special removal tool and I would need to get the plug from VW, if it's available.

Then I would not have bought it. Other cars have drain plugs.😁

 

Then again, is it 15 years old yet? I rarely buy anything newer.

 

1 hour ago, avgwarhawk said:

Snap On probably has the tool.

Just like needing those wacky different oil filter wrenches. 

 

1 hour ago, hidden_hunter said:

Warranty also plays a big part, I have 7 year warranty on my high performance golf - I ain’t going to be touching it myself and risking it

Here we have the right to do our own oil changes and NOT void the warranty. Of course one needs to save oil and filter receipts, documentation is still nice.

 

 

[hidden_hunter]

2 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

Then I would not have bought it. Other cars have drain plugs.😁

 

Then again, is it 15 years old yet? I rarely buy anything newer.

 

Just like needing those wacky different oil filter wrenches. 

 

Here we have the right to do our own oil changes and NOT void the warranty. Of course one needs to save oil and filter receipts, documentation is still nice.

 

 

 
we do here too, but by the time I get the oil, drive 10 miles to the disposal place it’s not worth it

[f.f.jones]

A couple of indications of how automobiles are fading from modern times:

 

San Jose California is the largest city in the country to abolish parking requirements, joining a bevy of other localities that are shifting to less car-oriented development.

 

.Bye-bye parking requirements: San Jose becomes largest city in U.S. to abolish minimum parking

 

https://www.planetizen.com/news/2022/12/120204-san-jose-eliminates-parking-minimums

 

With a population of 1 million people, San Jose is the largest U.S. city to remove parking minimums. “It is an especially big turnaround for a largely suburban community that has historically required businesses and developers to provide more on-site parking than any other major city in the state, according to a Bay Area News Group survey.” Now, new rules will require developers to include bicycle parking—“including one bike for every two lanes at bowling alleys and at least one bicycle spot for every 800 square feet at restaurants.”

 

(Light rail, bus and the soon to come BART subway trains are provided for those who cant find a parking place or don't have a car 😁😁)

 

An additional note:

Many real estate listings in San Jose make a point of advertising off-street parking available on the premises in addition to the garage due to the number of cars per family and families per house.vs available on-street parking. Due to the drought and severe water restrictions, many residents have converted their front or back yards into extra parking spaces. Another reason for this is the high rate of crime and theft, and the blatant violation of speed limits in residential areas. Cars parked on the street are regularly destroyed by careless and illegal speeders.

 

(I was born, raised and educated in San Jose and will never return)

 

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by f.f.jones (see edit history)

[marcapra]

It doesn't surprise me that there were no books on autos in the library.  I'm generalizing here, but most people don't read books anymore.  Just like most people don't play records anymore.  They do everything on their phone now.  Ever see anyone reading a magazine anymore?  No they're looking at or texting on their phones.  I think Youtube is now the main source for music as well as how to videos on mechanics and everything else.  

[avgwarhawk]

7 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

Then I would not have bought it. Other cars have drain plugs.😁

 

Then again, is it 15 years old yet? I rarely buy anything newer.

 

Just like needing those wacky different oil filter wrenches. 

 

 

 

 

And VW had a special hex socket for the inner CV joint as well.  Snap on had the correct one.  I owned a VW once. And never again! 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

13 hours ago, 54Coupe said:

Manufacturers are doing all they can, to make it so no one can work on their own cars. 

 

 Make that "need" to.

 

  Ben

[Larry Schramm]

8 hours ago, zepher said:

A friend of mine had to order his car from the dealer and wait 4 months because he wanted one with a manual trans instead of a CVT.

 

Smart move IMO.

[TAKerry]

Not a car, BUT, a few years ago my son decided to take my HD Roadking for a spin (while I was on vacation of course) and ended up with the bike laying in a ditch. Several broken parts (no bones though) and a few dents requiring a new paint job. The hand brake lever and  mounting were broken and I needed a replacement. Now, I forget the other part, may have been the clutch lever, but it needed replaced as well. I went to the Lancaster HD service department for repair parts. At the time my bike was maybe 8 yrs old, and a Roadking of which they had to have made a zillion of them. The parts I needed were no longer available!! The guy did a nation wide search and found one thing I needed at a dealership in AZ and he placed the order. The rest of the stuff I had to go to an aftermarket supplier. My comment to the service guy quite sarcastically, I admit, was that if I wanted to buy baby booties and bib with the HD marketing logo, I had a choice of 50 items, but heaven forbid I can get parts to keep my bike on the road!!! 

[SC38dls]

My daughter just had her front brakes done on her 2018 SUV. 
Rotors and pads $520 !  Cheap pads that are all ready covering the wheels with dust. I kept trying to tell her I could do all four wheels with slotted/drilled rotors and top of the line ceramic pads for $300. 
Plus I would enjoy doing it. She didn’t think I would work on a modern car. I guess my wife’s car a 2015 MB is an old car to her !  Kids don’t realize an antique car probably takes more maintenance and some parts like drum brakes are more complicated than new systems. Heck just getting the springs of the 38’s brakes are hard for an old man like me. 
dave s 

[Pfeil]

9 hours ago, f.f.jones said:

A couple of indications of how automobiles are fading from modern times:

 

San Jose California is the largest city in the country to abolish parking requirements, joining a bevy of other localities that are shifting to less car-oriented development.

 

.Bye-bye parking requirements: San Jose becomes largest city in U.S. to abolish minimum parking

 

https://www.planetizen.com/news/2022/12/120204-san-jose-eliminates-parking-minimums

 

With a population of 1 million people, San Jose is the largest U.S. city to remove parking minimums. “It is an especially big turnaround for a largely suburban community that has historically required businesses and developers to provide more on-site parking than any other major city in the state, according to a Bay Area News Group survey.” Now, new rules will require developers to include bicycle parking—“including one bike for every two lanes at bowling alleys and at least one bicycle spot for every 800 square feet at restaurants.”

 

(Light rail, bus and the soon to come BART subway trains are provided for those who cant find a parking place or don't have a car 😁😁)

 

An additional note:

Many real estate listings in San Jose make a point of advertising off-street parking available on the premises in addition to the garage due to the number of cars per family and families per house.vs available on-street parking. Due to the drought and severe water restrictions, many residents have converted their front or back yards into extra parking spaces. Another reason for this is the high rate of crime and theft, and the blatant violation of speed limits in residential areas. Cars parked on the street are regularly destroyed by careless and illegal speeders.

 

(I was born, raised and educated in San Jose and will never return)

 

 

Another reason people are leaving Ca.

[Pfeil]

1 hour ago, SC38dls said:

My daughter just had her front brakes done on her 2018 SUV. 
Rotors and pads $520 !  Cheap pads that are all ready covering the wheels with dust. I kept trying to tell her I could do all four wheels with slotted/drilled rotors and top of the line ceramic pads for $300. 
Plus I would enjoy doing it. She didn’t think I would work on a modern car. I guess my wife’s car a 2015 MB is an old car to her !  Kids don’t realize an antique car probably takes more maintenance and some parts like drum brakes are more complicated than new systems. Heck just getting the springs of the 38’s brakes are hard for an old man like me. 
dave s 

Communication breakdown.

[Pfeil]

8 hours ago, marcapra said:

It doesn't surprise me that there were no books on autos in the library.  I'm generalizing here, but most people don't read books anymore.  Just like most people don't play records anymore.  They do everything on their phone now.  Ever see anyone reading a magazine anymore?  No they're looking at or texting on their phones.  I think Youtube is now the main source for music as well as how to videos on mechanics and everything else.  

Took the wife to the store this morning, went straight to the magazine rack and I wasn't the only one at the magazine rack.

 

 

" I think Youtube is now the main source for music as well as how to videos on mechanics and everything else. "

 

I saw a youtube of some hick trying to do a clutch on a 99 Ford Ranger 4X4. As some of you might know the transfer case and the trans case are one and about 600lbs. needless to say with no trans jack the trans fell onto the guy's chest.

The only time to go to YouTube regarding car repairs is for a good laugh.

[avgwarhawk]

4 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 

 Make that "need" to.

 

  Ben

 

I concur.  

[1937hd45]

9 hours ago, marcapra said:

It doesn't surprise me that there were no books on autos in the library.  I'm generalizing here, but most people don't read books anymore.  Just like most people don't play records anymore.  They do everything on their phone now.  Ever see anyone reading a magazine anymore?  No they're looking at or texting on their phones.  I think Youtube is now the main source for music as well as how to videos on mechanics and everything else.  

I'd like to know what to invest in so I can cash in on the eye problems cellphone people with be suffering from in the future. 

Edited December 9, 2022 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[PWN]

I love cars...especially pre war America and 60 and 70 European shooting brakes...I love to drive..VW TDI diesels running on veggie oil...quick good handling super high mpg 1990s sedans...but I also ride a bike to work and the grocery store and whenever I can. Fueling and maintaining cars ruins the environment and ding dongs driving 13 mpg trucks as daily drivers with no need.

 

 

[TerryB]

What would be educational (in my opinion of course), would be to take some automobile owner’s instruction books from the teens and onward, maybe in 20 year increments and lay out the instructions needed to properly maintain the automobile of each time increment.  I’ve read some early instruction books that say the engine needs to be de-carboned at regular intervals.  Oil needs to be added after each drive.  Then get into the driving control, manual spark advance, hand crank starting and the like.  Then graduate to self starters, automatic spark advance, oil actually being changed because it doesn’t all leak out.  How about carburetors that have three setting accelerator pump rods that are adjustable for the ambient temperature.  Every advancement is there to make driving easier and requiring less maintenance.  As others have said, if we go backwards and add these requirements back in to driving, the number of cars on the road would be greatly reduced.  I grew up with coal stoves for heat including a “bucket a day” stove that burned year round to make hot water.  No thanks!  Never going back to that life.

[SC38dls]

2 hours ago, Pfeil said:

Communication breakdown.

No stubborn daughter!  
dave s