Factory Performance -Pre-War Style

[John348]

2 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

Pontiac; lowest priced V-8 car in the General Motors lineup.

 

What was the cost of one? Seldom ever see one

[Pfeil]

12 minutes ago, John348 said:

 

What was the cost of one? Seldom ever see one

A five window coupe like that with the 251 cu in V-8 @ 85HP = $925.00

BTW that engine is not quite a flat head. The valves are over the piston sideways or horizontal.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[29 Chandler]

Chandler started to advertise performance in the early 1920’s with their record breaking run up Pike’s Peak 

[pkhammer]

35 minutes ago, John348 said:

 

What was the cost of one? Seldom ever see one

I've never seen one. Was the Pontiac V8 similar to the Cadillac only smaller?

[Pfeil]

1 minute ago, pkhammer said:

I've never seen one. Was the Pontiac V8 similar to the Cadillac only smaller?

No, The engine was identical to Pontiac's Parent Oakland except the synchronizer was on the opposite side. The closest to the Pontiac/Oakland was the Viking ( Oldsmobile's child) V-8. The Cadillac V-8 was a true flathead and no relation. 

[Pfeil]

Oakland/Pontiac V-8;

The head mating to the block has two angles.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

43 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

No, The engine was identical to Pontiac's Parent Oakland except the synchronizer was on the opposite side. The closest to the Pontiac/Oakland was the Viking ( Oldsmobile's child) V-8. The Cadillac V-8 was a true flathead and no relation. 

Significantly, both the 1930-'31 Oakland and successor 1932 Pontiac as well as 1929-'30 Viking V-8 engines were mono-block castings two-three years before the 1932 Ford V8.  Cadillac and LaSalle V-8 engines were still the old separate barrel crankcase, cylinder block banks bolted on, would be through 1933 for LaSalle, 1935 for Cadillac.   These early GM mono-block V-8 engines are pioneers of engineering advancement.

[Fossil]

15 hours ago, ron hausmann said:

But after they shifted into second gear, I ate their dust.

I can't imagine  trying to speed shift that non-syncro transmission in your 27'. I will admit that I haven't pushed June Bug hard off the line. I'm worried about those 91 year old wooden wheels. 

4 hours ago, John348 said:

Those early Chevy six's can run all day at 42-45 mph, once they got near 50 those rod bearings start 'talking' they don't like it too much. You might go 50 but no for long  

That's kind of were June Bug stands. 40 to 45 mph is the sweet spot. Noise increases rapidly as speed goes up from there. If I'm in a hurry I'm driving the wrong car. 

[edinmass]

14 hours ago, West Peterson said:

 

Nothing beats the torque of a steamer, or an electric.

I also enjoy the silence..........

[Buffalowed Bill]

I might have missed mention of it, but i've always been intrigued by the Nash, OHV, straight eight. I guess that I can understand the omission considering the comparative rarity. 

 

The other one that really seemed to have gone unnoticed is the Auburn both straight eight and V12.

 

Hupmobile straight eight has to be in the mix too. These were more mid range cars, but since the Studebaker was also included these cars have to be in the conversation.

[58L-Y8]

3 hours ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

I might have missed mention of it, but i've always been intrigued by the Nash, OHV, straight eight. I guess that I can understand the omission considering the comparative rarity. 

The other one that really seemed to have gone unnoticed is the Auburn both straight eight and V12.

Hupmobile straight eight has to be in the mix too. These were more mid range cars, but since the Studebaker was also included these cars have to be in the conversation.

It boils down to the power-to-weight ratio of the car determining its performance potential.   Studebaker, Nash and Hupmobile all built straight eights over 300 ci but generally installed those in their longer, heavier chassis and body styles.   Of the better power-to-weight ratio models, as follows:

 

Studebaker offered the 1928 1/2 President FB on the 121" wb powered by the 337 ci, 109 hp straight eight, the lightest-weight roadster was 3535 lbs.  The President FB was succeeded by the President FH, 125" wb, 114 hp, 3770 lbs. 

 

For Nash, the 1932 Second-Series 1090 and 1933 1190 fielded a 133" wb coupe or convertible coupe, 322 ci OHV straight eight, 125 hp but 4210-4300 lbs.

 

Hupmobile 1930-'32 Deluxe Eight Model H, 125" wv, 365 ci L-Head straight eight, 133 hp.  A coupe is listed but no weight.

 

The Auburn Twelve was its performance car: 391 ci L-Head twelve, 160 hp, speedster 4135 lbs. with good reason to be one of the most desirable, highly sought collector cars.

 

The Graham-Paige 1929-30 827; 1930-'31 127, 322 ci, 120 hp L-Head straight eight, coupe, no weight listed.

 

All these models were middle and upper-middle priced cars which potentially could provide satisfying performance for their times.

[alsancle]

The 1940 Hollywood Graham was the fastest American manufactured car that year 0 to 60. I think retail was around $1600.

[Terry Harper]

If advertising is to be beleived, the last of the big Elcars were rather impressive but again its all about that power weight ratio.

[edinmass]

If you want to know what cars are good drivers........just look at prices. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

The 1940 Hollywood Graham was the fastest American manufactured car that year 0 to 60. I think retail was around $1600.

 

Really.  My 1940 Buick did not know That!

 

  Ben

[58L-Y8]

14 hours ago, alsancle said:

The 1940 Hollywood Graham was the fastest American manufactured car that year 0 to 60. I think retail was around $1600.

By comparison:

1940 Graham Custom Hollywood Model 109 Supercharger 4dr sedan, 6 cylinder, L-Head, 217 ci, 120 hp, 2,965 lbs, $1,065

1940 Buick Century Model 60 2dr sport coupe, 8 cylinder, OHV. 320 ci, 141 hp, 3,765 lbs, $1,175

1940 LaSalle Series 40-50 2dr coupe, 8 cylinder, L-head, 322 ci, 130 hp, 3,810 lbs, $1,380.

[Trreinke]

The 1931 Devaux was advertised to do 70 mph. I don't have access to the clipping right now, but I have a new paper articles that says for a publicity stunt, Devaux refueled an airplane in-flight.

 

They ran out of runway on the first attempt so the plane circled around again and the Coupe kept up the the plane long enough for a fellow in the rumble seat to pour gasoline into the plane's tank before they reached the end of the runway without the planes wheels touching the ground.

 

Maybe the company went out of business the next year because they wasted all their money on advertising!

Edited November 2, 2021 by Trreinke (see edit history)

[alsancle]

On 10/31/2021 at 10:19 PM, 58L-Y8 said:

Significantly, both the 1930-'31 Oakland and successor 1932 Pontiac as well as 1929-'30 Viking V-8 engines were mono-block castings two-three years before the 1932 Ford V8.  Cadillac and LaSalle V-8 engines were still the old separate barrel crankcase, cylinder block banks bolted on, would be through 1933 for LaSalle, 1935 for Cadillac.   These early GM mono-block V-8 engines are pioneers of engineering advancement.

Thanks Steve. I was going to look up the curb weight and horsepower but you save me the time. The thing about the Hollywood Graham is that it also has a top speed of about 65 mph. But was geared to get there fast. They experimented with a two speed her end and overdrive but never offered it.

[58L-Y8]

22 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Thanks Steve. I was going to look up the curb weight and horsepower but you save me the time. The thing about the Hollywood Graham is that it also has a top speed of about 65 mph. But was geared to get there fast. They experimented with a two speed her end and overdrive but never offered it.

AJ:

 

You're welcome, I too wondered how they compared with contemporaries considered to be 'hot' cars at the time.  The Hollywood Supercharger was significantly lighter weight and possibly better aerodynamically than the Century or LaSalle.    Poor Graham, even if they had perfected the two speed differential and overdrive, the Hollywood along with all their automotive production ended during September 1940.   They had few dealers left to sell what cars they built.  Apparently any Hollywoods titled as 1941 models were leftover, unsold 1940 production.  

 

Here's a thought: imagine if they still had the supercharged straight eight they'd built through 1935 and could shoe-horn those into the Hollywoods!

 

Steve

[alsancle]

All Hollywood production for both 1940 in 1941 happened in about a six month window in the middle of 1940. Somewhere in the middle they took a two week break, and then made minor changes to the 41. The dash panel is striped instead of engine turn, and there may be some other very minor change.

[alsancle]

I’ll add, I know way too much about Hollywood Graham’s.

Edited November 2, 2021 by alsancle (see edit history)

[John S.]

I know, it was mentioned earlier in this post, but the 1933 Essex Terraplane 8, was a snappy performer. I rode in an 8 Convertible, and it was a thrilling experience. Had a nice growl to it.

[Rusty_OToole]

In the 1930s Studebaker had a lot of success at Indianapolis with straight eight, stock block type race cars. In 1935 they offered an optional high performance straight eight for their showroom cars with multiple carburetors, high compression and other improvements. It was very expensive and I don't know how many were sold. This was the smaller Dictator eight of about 250 cu in, by this time they had dropped the big President straight eight of over 300 cu in.

[hook]

On 10/30/2021 at 3:14 PM, pkhammer said:

   I've been a Ford guy for a long time and I find it interesting how the Model A when it was introduced was considered a pretty fast car, especially in the low price field. Probably not many cars in 1928 that could run 60+ mph. Then Ford introduces the V8 and those were the factory "hot rods" for a long time, at least among the low priced makes.

  My question is this; what other low price makes at the time (20s-30s) were considered fast cars? I suppose the OHV sixes of the time such as the Studebaker Big Six and Hudson Super Six would be in the mix. I also just read about the 1933 Essex-Terraplane Eight (one year only?) which was considered a fast car and one of the favorites of John Dillinger.

  What are some other fast/powerful cars of the era.

Granted, Franklin wasn't considered one of the low priced automobiles at $2295. to upwards of over 2695. in 1931 but it was no slouch when it came to speed and comfort. It had a 274 cu. in. 100 HP overhead air cooled six cylinder engine with an aluminum crankcase and 6 aluminum heads. I have included a section from the 1931 Franklin brochure and an ad from the Saturday Evening Post. Remember 80 miles an hour is like 50 riding is like gliding. Like the Packard ads say "Ask the man that owns one" also applies to my Franklin. 

[bryankazmer]

Interesting discussion, albeit muddied by some criteria not being real defined.

Fast (speed) vs quick (acceleration)

1939 and 1930 are not the same group of contenders.

Ford and Auburn are not price competitors.

 

Torque/weight and gearing for acceleration.  In the 1940 edition, I suspect the Hollywood's chances vs Buick Century and Packard 160 have much to do with gearing.

[58L-Y8]

For acceleration, not only the gearing but in what RPM range the maximum torque is generated controls how the car feels in operation.  The trouble with maximum horsepower ratings of an engine in question is it frequently is at an RPM no one would feel comfortable revving the engine for more than a few seconds.   Especially the long stroke variety.

[hook]

2 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:

For acceleration, not only the gearing but in what RPM range the maximum torque is generated controls how the car feels in operation.  The trouble with maximum horsepower ratings of an engine in question is it frequently is at an RPM no one would feel comfortable revving the engine for more than a few seconds.   Especially the long stroke variety.

True but some engines aren't as fragile as you might think. The 1931 Franklin was rated at 100 HP at 3100 RPM. At 3100 RPM in the lowest gearing Franklin offered (4.73:1) equates to 60 MPH and the highest gearing offered was (3.92:1) which was 72 MPH. Not at all uncomfortable to drive all day long. A 1935 Ford V8 was rated 90 HP @ 3800 RPM and a 1941 Ford V8 was rated 85 HP @ 3800 RPM and I don't think 3800 RPM was earth shattering even for Ford.

[bryankazmer]

On 11/2/2021 at 9:13 AM, 58L-Y8 said:

By comparison:

1940 Graham Custom Hollywood Model 109 Supercharger 4dr sedan, 6 cylinder, L-Head, 217 ci, 120 hp, 2,965 lbs, $1,065

1940 Buick Century Model 60 2dr sport coupe, 8 cylinder, OHV. 320 ci, 141 hp, 3,765 lbs, $1,175

1940 LaSalle Series 40-50 2dr coupe, 8 cylinder, L-head, 322 ci, 130 hp, 3,810 lbs, $1,380.

1940 Packard 160 business coupe, 8 cyl, L-head, 356 in3, 160 hp, 3665 lbs, $1524

24.7, 26.7, 29.3, 22.9  lb/hp respectively

[58L-Y8]

2 hours ago, hook said:

"... A 1935 Ford V8 was rated 90 HP @ 3800 RPM and a 1941 Ford V8 was rated 85 HP @ 3800 RPM and I don't think 3800 RPM was earth shattering even for Ford."

The Franklin tolerance for higher RPM"s notwithstanding, the 1941 Ford 221 ci V8, rated 85 HP @ 3800 RPM; maximum torque was 157 ft/lbs @ 2200 rpm.  Torque curves typically taper off as the engine reaches the rated horsepower at higher rpms.   

[Rusty_OToole]

Zora Arkus Duntov said he had a ride in a friend's then late model 1937 Ford coupe and they got it up to 107 MPH down a long hill. Later he calculated this meant a hair raising 7000RPM. This convinced him the Ford had a lot of performance potential and could stand higher HP and RPM without blowing up, which led to the development of the Ardun cylinder heads.

[Fossil]

If I tried doing 7000 rpm in June bug I would spend the next week with a metal detector looking for parts. Just the thought gives me the chills. 

[hook]

6 hours ago, Fossil said:

If I tried doing 7000 rpm in June bug I would spend the next week with a metal detector looking for parts. Just the thought gives me the chills. 

Brave is the man that will fight with a sword, or climb Mt Everest in snow. But the bravest of all owns a 48 Ford and will try for 6000 in low.

[charlespetty]

On 11/2/2021 at 8:04 AM, alsancle said:

Thanks Steve. I was going to look up the curb weight and horsepower but you save me the time. The thing about the Hollywood Graham is that it also has a top speed of about 65 mph. But was geared to get there fast. They experimented with a two speed her end and overdrive but never offered it.

Graham offered the Warner overdrive early on.  I just looked at two Hollywood sedans, a 1938 Spirit of Motion and a 1937 Graham sedan all with the supercharger and overdrive.  All of these Grahams could hit at least 90mph and had a 0-60 time of 14.5 seconds.  

[Marty Roth]

On 10/30/2021 at 3:20 PM, pkhammer said:

If I were a new car buyer in 1929 I would've probably chosen the Chevy (and traded it in in 1932 when Ford introduced the V8 😃).

I likely would have stayed with the Chevy,

just sayin'

[Fossil]

2 hours ago, Marty Roth said:

I likely would have stayed with the Chevy,

They sell overhaul kits for those too. 😉

[sftamx1]

The '32 and '33 Terraplanes had the highest horsepower to weight ratio of ANY production  cars in the world. Their modern light weight chassis and bodies were the reason. The Terraplane racing team entered over 77 hill climbs and races during 1933, and won every single race.