An Act of Desperation

[Hudsy Wudsy]

I thought that a couple of you might get a chuckle out of a Hudson Hornet 308 CI engine that I got with a car I bought a few years ago. Here in Minnesota, as well as plenty of other places, a person pays a heavy price if they forget use anti-freeze in the winter. Some poor guy must have been heartbroken to have found his engine cracked this badly after a winter freeze. If you look closely you'll see a long weld running horizontally just below the top edge of the block. There is also another weld running parallel to it at approximately the bottom of the water jacket (above the distributor hole, behind the oil filter). The engine was complete with the twin H dual carburetor set up and I just couldn't resist the temptation to get it running. A temporary fuel source and a couple of radiator hoses was pretty much all it took to get it running, but it squirted water out of all of the welds immediately. I wasn't surprised, but I'd have been always curious if I hadn't tried.

 

 

The engine was rebuilt at some point. It has a set of 0.020" over pistons in it. Do you guys think that there is any market for used pistons?:

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

Thats crazy!  Not sure about a Hudson, But I have a complete set of Pontiac Super Duty pistons that I couldnt give away.

[Marty Roth]

Hudson !

Always interesting !

 

I'll bet there is someone out there who wants your .020 oversized Hudson 320 ci pistons, and likely the rods, crankshaft, valves, etc....

 

I bought a complete (running well when removed a year or so back) 1949 Hudson 262 ci Super-Six engine, along with the 3-speed tranny and Overdrive.

I bought it as a "just in case", when we didn't know if my 1915 Hudson 6-40 288 ci engine was repairable per coolant leaks in the monocast straight-six block.

All appears good now, and the car will hopefully soon be driven to confirm that we can stay all-original, and it can be driven on this year's Glidden Tour in Saratoga Springs, NY.

 

I do have a potential buyer for the complete 262 driveline.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Marty Roth (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

Will any other block interchange with the 308? I know Chrysler used the same block for engines from 218 to 265 cu in. If you could find a good block you have enough parts to put together a motor.

If it hadn't been welded I would suggest lock n stitch but it is probably too late for that now.

[28 Chrysler]

I am proud to say I don't live in Minnesota any more.

I am not proud to say my first car was a V8 1954 Ford wagon that had two long splits that were not welded but fixed (not me) with the original black Bondo.

It would last about 90 days then just another thin coat.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

10 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Will any other block interchange with the 308? I know Chrysler used the same block for engines from 218 to 265 cu in. If you could find a good block you have enough parts to put together a motor.

If it hadn't been welded I would suggest lock n stitch but it is probably too late for that now.

Rusty, I appreciate the idea, but the 308 was it's own engine. Decent 308 blocks aren't all that easy to find, either, as they would develop cracks around the valves seats.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[MikeC5]

J.B. Weld?

[60FlatTop]

What do people call those three cup shaped things between the upper and lower cracks?

[Marty Roth]

27 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

What do people call those three cup shaped things between the upper and lower cracks?

 

I call them  Freeze Plugs

or Freeze Out Plugs-

 

What do you call them, Bernie?

 

For those who don't live in a frozen part of the world,

They are typically a lighter weight metal, either cupped, or pressed into the shape of a concave disk, or sometimes with a bowl-shaped shoulder. They fill the casting hole, and are

 

"intended"

 

to be pushed out in the event that the coolant in the block freezes and expands - so that they will "give" before the expanding coolant (water?) cracks the engine block.

 

I'm sure the more educated among our forum members can offer a better explaination 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Marty Roth
typo, and additional note (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

1 minute ago, Marty Roth said:

so that they will "give" before the expanding coolanr (water?) cracks the engine block.

 

You wouldn't kid me would you?

[Marty Roth]

14 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

You wouldn't kid me would you?

 

Who, Me ?

said Alfred E. Newman,

 

... and then responded 
"What, Me Worry?"

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Marty Roth (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

That's what people call them but it's an old wives tale that they were intended to pop out if frozen. They are really core plugs - and are there to hold the casting pattern in place while the sand mold is being made.

[Marty Roth]

21 minutes ago, Marty Roth said:

 

I call them  Freeze Plugs

or Freeze Out Plugs-

 

What do you call them, Bernie?

 

For those who don't live in a frozen part of the world,

They are typically a lighter weight metal, either cupped, or pressed into the shape of a concave disk, or sometimes with a bowl-shaped shoulder. They fill the casting hole, and are

 

"intended"

 

to be pushed out in the event that the coolant in the block freezes and expands - so that they will "give" before the expanding coolant (water?) cracks the engine block.

 

I'm sure the more educated among our forum members can offer a better explaination 

 

Maybe I should have noted the "intended"  with a wink and a nod ?

[JACK M]

I replaced many a boat engine due to owners ignorance.

[60FlatTop]

2 hours ago, Marty Roth said:

What do you call them, Bernie?

Welch plugs or core plugs. I asked because they stood out so prominently in the picture.

 

 The devil made me ask.

[J.H.Boland]

Up here in the great white north (on about the same latitude as Detroit), they're called frost plugs.

[Marty Roth]

2 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Welch plugs or core plugs. I asked because they stood out so prominently in the picture.

 

 The devil made me ask.

 

When we re-did the '15 Hudson block, we had a hard time finding the correct size - drove to 4 different NAPA shops 'till we got the right ones

(Hudson dealer wasn't open that morning)

[Larry Schramm]

If they were really "Freeze Plugs" why did the block appear to freeze and the plugs are still there?  Might have been replaced, but I doubt it.  They are core plugs to clean out the casting sand, etc.. after the block is cast and cooled. 

 

They are also great for having access with a long coat hanger to clean out crud that accumulates over time in the old vehicle blocks that used everything from water, alcohol, ethylene glycol, creek water, and anything else to use as coolant.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

On 8/7/2021 at 10:29 AM, Marty Roth said:

They are typically a lighter weight metal, either cupped, or pressed into the shape of a concave disk, or sometimes with a bowl-shaped shoulder. They fill the casting hole, and are

 

"intended"

 

to be pushed out in the event that the coolant in the block freezes and expands - so that they will "give" before the expanding coolant (water?) cracks the engine block.

Absolutely 100% incorrect statement!😲

 

They are core plugs! Their ONLY purpose is to allow removal the "core" that was used to form the water jacket during casting. 👍

 

Why would the manufacturer put in a part totally unneeded for the engine to operate? Bean counters would never allow this.

 

Ask me more casting questions, dad worked in a cast iron foundry in Richmond from 1939 to 1985.😉

[Pilgrim65]

I think this side of the pond we call them core plugs 

[60FlatTop]

I worked in a foundry when I was young. Casings such as engine blocks with internal passages have sand cores with a special binder that are placed in the main casting which uses a less precise binder and is packed with a pneumatic ram, a rougher process. The molten steel of the block solidifies around the core, forming the water jacket. The rough casing is put on a shaker grate and bounced around to loosen and remove the core sand. The round openings are intentional for the fitting of the plug.

Since water expands equally in all directions when it freezes there would not be a engineering purpose against freezing. More likely an early event happened where an observer assumed they protected an engine and the idea stuck.

 

And you can bet all the clothes pins on your fuel lines those myths and legends continue today. Many by second rate actors portraying journalists on TV.

 

A bit from the other side: https://coreplugs.co.uk/faq#

 

 

 

[Ozstatman]

8 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

And you can bet all the clothes pins on your fuel lines those myths and legends continue today. .....

I like 'em.😉

 

[paulrhd29nz]

Look up “ Water Glass “ it will permanently fix that block. I know several people that have had very good success with it. 

[Larry Schramm]

Water Glass is what dealers used to lock up engines in the oil side of the engine during the cash for clunkers years ago.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Water glass.: Water glass | chemical compound | Britannica

 

The article doesn't speak about it's qualities in terms of heat/cold cycles or petroleum/anti freeze immersion, but it's an interesting idea anyway. Do any of you guys have any experience in using this product as a block sealer?

[cahartley]

If you are trying to seal the welds get a bottle of Loctite 290 Threadlocker Wicking Grade or the Permatex equivalent https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/permatex-medium-strength-threadlocker-blue-2-oz-24200/7160099-P and paint it over the weld area.

Both perform the same function by wicking into unseen porosities and once cured is permanent.

 

 

[60FlatTop]

 

Real desperation, stay out of Minnesota.

 

[Restorer32]

Water glass, sodium silicate if I remember correctly, was used to preserve eggs way back in the day.

[Marty Roth]

On 8/8/2021 at 10:18 PM, Frank DuVal said:

 They are core plugs! Their ONLY purpose is to allow removal the "core" that was used to form the water jacket during casting.  

Ask me more casting questions, dad worked in a cast iron foundry in Richmond from 1939 to 1985.

 

Thank you Frank Duval,

always room to learn, and to dispell that which has been around as "Commom Knowledge"

[JACK M]

11 hours ago, Hudsy Wudsy said:

Water glass.: Water glass | chemical compound | Britannica

 

The article doesn't speak about it's qualities in terms of heat/cold cycles or petroleum/anti freeze immersion, but it's an interesting idea anyway. Do any of you guys have any experience in using this product as a block sealer?

 

A few times many years ago.

It was like magic.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Oh well, if anybody has an interest in this Hornet 308 let me know. I'll include the cast iron 308 head that came with it. The head is milled to 1.965". They used to do that to raise compression without using the aluminum head.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)