1928-1931 Cadillac-LaSalle pot metal failure.

[edinmass]

Many people here ask me why I don't recommend late 20's and early 30's Cadillac's and LaSalle's for first time pre war cars. Here you go. Much of the car is made out of die cast pot metal. Particularly in 29 & 30 they had terrible problems with it. The entire car has hundreds of pieces made from this stuff. From door handles, seat adjusters, distributors, the list is endless........just like the headaches. Had a friend who's car was running great, then for no reason over the winter....poof........runs like dog doo. Here is what happened. Fast failure over only a few months. Parts are available. 900 Bucks and some labor....figure 300.......presto. You have a distributor again. Ain't life grand? Spend over a grand, and the car runs again. Photo below of bad unit and new casting. Best, Ed.

Edited August 3, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[jrbartlett]

He's right about the pot metal. We had a '30 LaSalle when I was a kid, a 7-passenger touring that was sold in 1972. There was pot metal everywhere, some of it bad. Just thinking of it now, 60 years later, it must really be in awful shape. 

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[edinmass]

10 minutes ago, jrbartlett said:

He's right about the pot metal. We had a '30 LaSalle when I was a kid, a 7-passenger touring that was sold in 1972. There was pot metal everywhere, some of it bad. Just thinking of it now, 60 years later, it must really be in awful shape. 

 

 

 

It sure doesn't get better with age!

[Mark Huston]

Unfortunately, this issue extends to other cars during this same time period.  My 1929 Studebaker President is also infected with an over abundance of pot metal.   Unlike more popular makes, like Cadillac, there isn’t anyone currently reproducing replacement parts.  If a part returns to ashes the only alternative is to find one good enough to be used as a pattern and have a one off casting made.  Ain’t life grand? 

[John Kelso]

30 years ago there were several people making all these parts for Cadillac. Henry Yeska among them, and I restored a few. I bought a good original 29 Cadillac a couple of years ago and all the old sources of parts were gone, very unhappy with Cadillac quality.

Have Lincoln's of the same vintage and they spoiled me.

[Billy Kingsley]

Metal fatigue is the worst. As a long time diecast car collector I've been familiar with it for a while but I didn't know it also affected real cars. 

[wayne sheldon]

In my high school and college days, a friend and his dad had a nice original 1929 Cadillac four door sedan. An old so-so repaint, and beautiful original interior. I rode in that car numerous times both with my friend and/or his dad. Boy that car ran nice! Every time I read about how these cars have become difficult and unreliable, I find it difficult to accept. I know it is true. But it just doesn't fit with some fond memories. Pot metal is insidious stuff. Age attacks it in ways tough to understand. One batch may last for a very long time, another batch might fail in a few years. A fifty or eighty year old item could be fine one day, and a couple weeks later turn nearly to dust (I have seen it happen!).

 

If my circumstances can improve enough, before too much longer, I still hope to restore my dad's 1927 Paige. I think it is in pretty good shape, pot metal-wise. The original interior door handles were cast brass. The window original cranks were pot metal. Fifty years ago, I scoured numerous swap meets and found four nearly identical original window crank handles, cast in brass.

The car didn't have much more pot metal, a few incidentals, mostly easily fixed. The car didn't have the original carburetor, research quickly found its original carburetor was a Johnson model H. I have heard horror stories of Johnson carburetors. I don't know if I should attempt to use a Johnson model H on the car or not. I do have both a Zenith and a Stromberg era carburetors that could likely be used. I did find a few old Johnson H carburetors in my swap meet searches. Mostly pot metal bodies, usually beyond repair. However, I also found one, cast in aluminum. Who knew? And I have one.

 

A number of longtime friends have had Buicks from the mid to late 1920s era. Buick in those years also used a lot of pot metal. I don't know if the Buick clubs are still making those dozens of pieces or not. But for many years they did, and that is one reason there are so many nice Buick sedans and coupes around today.

[zepher]

Now do Stromberg carbs of the era and that $1,000 price tag to get the car running is a bargain!

[carbking]

13 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

I have heard horror stories of Johnson carburetors. I don't know if I should attempt to use a Johnson model H on the car or not.

 

(Opinion) If the car is to be a "trailer queen", driven (or pushed) ONLY from the trailer to the show-field, shine up the Johnson.

 

If you plan to actually start, and even more, drive, the car; I would highly suggest you install a more reliable carburetor. (Or maybe just hire a 15-year-old to stand on the running board and pour gas into the engine from a leaky boot!)

 

I am probably more paranoid than most concerning this subject; and the paranoia is NOT related to my business. In a previous lifetime (maybe 50 years ago), I lost a friend to a car fire, caused by a leaky carburetor. I have no guilt, I had nothing to do with the carburetor, but I still lost a friend. He was an older gentleman (maybe my age today), and simply could not get out of the car in time. This loss of life WAS preventable!

 

Where there is a hot engine in close proximity to gasoline, there is a potential for fire.

 

There are other reasons for not using some of these early carbs today for drivers, but I will not hyjack the thread.

 

Jon

Edited August 4, 2021 by carbking (see edit history)

[29StutzM]

About twenty years ago while in the process of restoration of my 29 Stutz, I was told about pot metal issues with the 29', including the carb, same as 28' but now pot metal.

Thanks to help from many folks, I had everything replaced including the carb and it is a thrill to drive now!

I also lost a high school friend to an engine fire, so I took it very seriously!  

[28 Chrysler]

With the Chryslers it started in 1924 and die cast Carbs, radiator caps & switch levers come to mind. 

These parts came from outside suppliers and some batches of the metal lasted longer than others.

[Bud Tierney]

The Gardner people with the Lyc "C" series engines, some of which came with pot metal oil pumps,, can pass along more horror stories...

[pfloro]

From a metallurgical perspective, why does pot metal breakdown over time?  I know the mix of metals (primarily zinc ?) can vary widely but as some folks have said, pot metal can last a long time or fail in a short time.

 

Thanks,

 

Paul

Edited August 4, 2021 by pfloro (see edit history)

[m-mman]

20 hours ago, JAK said:

30 years ago there were several people making all these parts for Cadillac. Henry Yeska among them, and I restored a few. I bought a good original 29 Cadillac a couple of years ago and all the old sources of parts were gone,

 

When I did my 29 Cad 4 years ago I bought a new distributor (all new castings excellent quality) from Classic & Exotic Services. $2000(!) but I grinned and bared it.

I just looked and they seem to be out of business. So my reproduced part seems like a bargain now.  

 

Nobody would buy (expensive) reproduced parts for a car they don't currently own, BUT if you have a car, PLEASE support the people who reproduce the rare and unobtainable parts for it. They might not be around in 2, 5, 15 years when you finally get around to fixing the car. 

 

6 hours ago, carbking said:

If you plan to actually start, and even more, drive, the car; I would highly suggest you install a more reliable carburetor. (Or maybe just hire a 15-year-old to stand on the running board and pour gas into the engine from a leaky boot!)

I wish it were even THAT EASY.  Its an updraft manifold, so you cant even pour gas into it! 

I have been told that there are no swaps beyond engineering an down draft manifold and reworking linkage etc. 

[wayne sheldon]

Many years ago, I helped a friend working on his mid1920s Cadillac. The carburetor on those cars is, to put it mildly, rather large. What makes the problem really difficult, is that the carburetor in order to fit under the intake manifold, is rather squat in shape. Finding anything in an updraft large enough to function properly, and low enough in shape to fit in that valley in the engine's 'V', has to be a big problem! At least for my Paige, a typical 'L' head six of the era, there are a lot of potential brass and /or iron carburetors to choose from.

[jrbartlett]

I currently have a '29 Packard Super 8 roadster, plus we had a '29 Club Sedan in the 1960s, and offhand I can't remember anything made of pot metal on those cars.

[Joe in Canada]

If you want new castings you should try Mike Butters 905-372-6926. He works full time by himself so he sees every part going out the door. Yes he does  20s and 30s Cadillac parts and you can ask Jeffry Pierson or Dave Dano about his work. Just to mention a couple of V16 folks that use Mike.  

[wayne sheldon]

As I recall, edinmass a couple weeks ago in another thread made a comment about certain cars of the Classic era literally melting the tops of the pistons when certain things were changed to get them sort of running. As I recall, it was a tread drift into the necessary proper sorting of our cars for serious touring use (may have been in one of the 'for sale' threads?). 

I 'assume' (love the ironic spelling of that word!) he was referring (at least in part?) to the use of a too small carburetor on a car, and then pushing the speeds enough for the carburetor to not be capable of handling the fuel and air mixture, resulting in a way too lean, and therefore extremely hot burning, mixture. As I recall, part of the consideration included changing to aluminum pistons. Which if the carburetion were working properly, I would think shouldn't be much of a problem. 

If I am wrong in my assumption (I am sometimes wrong!), Ed or someone else should correct me (I do not mind being corrected!).

 

Carburetion is not a 'plug and play' simplicity. There are numerous factors that must be taken into consideration.

I just thought the discussion drift here into replacing pot metal carburetors may warrant a quick mention of the necessary considerations.

[Joe in Canada]

1 hour ago, wayne sheldon said:

Many years ago, I helped a friend working on his mid1920s Cadillac. The carburetor on those cars is, to put it mildly, rather large. What makes the problem really difficult, is that the carburetor in order to fit under the intake manifold, is rather squat in shape. Finding anything in an updraft large enough to function properly, and low enough in shape to fit in that valley in the engine's 'V', has to be a big problem! At least for my Paige, a typical 'L' head six of the era, there are a lot of potential brass and /or iron carburetors to choose from.

I have seen fellows converting to down draft on their Cadillac after they finish the show circuit. Lots of room on top making it easier to work on and less sorting issues. 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[bill witmer]

3 hours ago, m-mman said:

 

When I did my 29 Cad 4 years ago I bought a new distributor (all new castings excellent quality) from Classic & Exotic Services. $2000(!) but I grinned and bared it.

I just looked and they seem to be out of business. So my reproduced part seems like a bargain now.  

 

Nobody would buy (expensive) reproduced parts for a car they don't currently own, BUT if you have a car, PLEASE support the people who reproduce the rare and unobtainable parts for it. They might not be around in 2, 5, 15 years when you finally get around to fixing the car. 

 

I wish it were even THAT EASY.  Its an updraft manifold, so you cant even pour gas into it! 

I have been told that there are no swaps beyond engineering an down draft manifold and reworking linkage etc. 

Classic and Exotic services is now called Straight 8. Google straight8.com. The last I knew, they were still in business.

[edinmass]

Tim was working at the shop this morning, and expects to be there for thirty or forty more years. He makes nice stuff. 

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

I have seen fellows converting to down draft on their Cadillac after they finish the show circuit. Lots of room on top making it easier to work on and less sorting issues. 

The carburetors can be made to run correctly, all you need is time, experience, and money. Putting a down draft on that early V-8, 12, or 16 is an invitation to engine failure.......the crappy carbs they used were more of a governor. I have driven tens of thousands of miles in Cadillac’s with vacuum tanks and Cad/Johnson carbs. 

[carbking]

7 hours ago, pfloro said:

From a metallurgical perspective, why does pot metal breakdown over time?  I know the mix of metals (primarily zinc ?) can vary widely but as some folks have said, pot metal can last a long time or fail in a short time.

 

Thanks,

 

Paul

 

Some 40 years ago, we submitted some samples of the early zinc alloy to a metallurgist. After testing, his opinion was that the early pot metal (depending on company, basically pre-1930, but different companies changed from about 1930~1938) contained significantly more lead than the later zinc alloy. And the abundance of the lead is what caused deterioration.

 

Take the above as hearsay; I am NOT a metallurgist.

 

Jon

[edinmass]

I’ll add that is seems GM had changed their formula sometime mid 1930. After that date, the material is ten times better........and is still a nightmare to work with. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Anyone needing early Cadillac parts should contact Pete Sanders.  He makes virtually all pot metal pieces for Classic Cadillacs in silicon bronze. Pricey but well done.

[edinmass]

Pete is very often out of stock on many items...........his and Charlie’s stuff is always well done. There are also a handful of others very active making parts. Anyone needing help on early Cadillac stuff from the CCCA era can PM me for names and numbers to find stuff.

[hidden_hunter]

14 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

I have seen fellows converting to down draft on their Cadillac after they finish the show circuit. Lots of room on top making it easier to work on and less sorting issues. 

The v63 and type 61, I wonder if it would be easier to go to a dual carb setup.

 

 That said they don’t have pot metal just lots of other problems

[edinmass]

Stock is usually the best way.......99 percent of the time. Very rarely can one improve on a high end cars design.

[John_Mereness]

I recall the receipt for our 1931 Cadillac 355 Town sedan for Die Cast replacement was for nearly every piece plus replacement of 4 zinc hubcaps and 2 outside runningboard moldings = roughly $10,000 in 1976 = using a time value of money calculator that is $46,941.15, though I would guess 20K would cover the parts today and then you have plating and .... 

[hidden_hunter]

8 hours ago, edinmass said:

Stock is usually the best way.......99 percent of the time. Very rarely can one improve on a high end cars design.

I agree, more just musings - mine is all original, with the exception of an inline fuel cut off that fails closed

[TexRiv_63]

These are two of the rarest threaded hubcaps to find in original condition due to the bad potmetal, almost all I've seen are damaged in some way. I ordered one once that looked nice in photos and when it arrived all that was in the box was crumbled bits.

[Peter R.]

On 8/4/2021 at 10:13 PM, jrbartlett said:

I currently have a '29 Packard Super 8 roadster, plus we had a '29 Club Sedan in the 1960s, and offhand I can't remember anything made of pot metal on those cars.

 

From 1925 to 28 Packard equipped its cars with the problematic early Delco/Delco-Remy 4000 series pot metal distributors (so did Cadillac, Duesenberg, Stutz and others). From 1929 to 32 Packard used North-East distributors with steel cups. So there's no pot metal issue on a 1929 Packard (except maybe for the Detroit Lubricator 51 carburetor bowl). The pot metal distributors used on 6 cyl. Packards can be replaced with Delco-Remy distributor 656-J that was standard equipment on 1928 Packards 526 and 533. Delco-Remy also made 4000 series distributor cups out of steel. So if there's a broken pot metal cup on an early 4000 series distributor a steel cup can be used instead. We installed one on a 1928 4th Series Packard. Works just fine.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Peter R. (see edit history)

[Peter R.]

1925 Rickenbacker 8 distributor. It's not an early Delco 4000 series distributor but very similar. Cups made of aluminum.

 

[edinmass]

Swapping out distributors can be ok.......80 percent of the time if it is from the same marque. But advance curves, cam lobes, and a few other issues can often cause problems. You would be amazed at the distributor problems I find when placing “upgraded” or changes out units on my Sun tester. It’s important to understand exactly what you started with and what you are installing. Rarely do advance units function as they should after 80 plus years, especially when they have never been taken apart and cleaned. 

[carbking]

The 1929 Packard Detroit Lubricator bowls are brass, not pot metal. The mid-1929 Packard Johnson carbs were pot metal.

 

Jon.

[Peter R.]

7 hours ago, carbking said:

The 1929 Packard Detroit Lubricator bowls are brass, not pot metal. The mid-1929 Packard Johnson carbs were pot metal.

 

Jon,

 

Are Packard DL51 brass bowls interchangable with pot metal bowls? 

 

Years ago I started working on a Packard Johnson carburetor. I noticed the bad pot metal parts around the bowl section but I thought one day I will find replacement. Are there any "good" Johnsons out there or am I on the lookout for non existing stuff?

 

I have another Johnson (1929 Graham-Paige) but it is even worse. The entire carburetor is made of pot metal. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Peter R. (see edit history)

[yachtflame]

Jeez Ed, my distributer looked fine until you took the paint off it! I was using that to hold it together!!

[Peter R.]

8 hours ago, edinmass said:

Swapping out distributors can be ok.......80 percent of the time if it is from the same marque. But advance curves, cam lobes, and a few other issues can often cause problems. You would be amazed at the distributor problems I find when placing “upgraded” or changes out units on my Sun tester. It’s important to understand exactly what you started with and what you are installing.

 

I agree....the worst "upgrade" I came across was a mid 50's vacuum advance Chevrolet distributor on a 1927 Paige.... 🙂

 

When I mentioned the Delco-Remy 656-J distributor upgrade on 6 cyl. Packards I was referring to 1925-27 Packards with 289 cui engines. They originally used a Delco 4009 distributor. The advance curves on 4009 and 656-J are almost identical. The upgrade suggestion can be found in the books. Besides this 1922-24 Packards with 268 cui 6 cyl. engine were equipped with Delco distributor 5249. Since the 1925 Packard 326, 333 (289 cui) used both distributors, Delco 5249 and 4009, I would assume that 656-J could be used on all 1922-28 6 cyl. Packards. Again the advance curve of 5249 is similar but the engine is running at a slightly lower max. rpm.

[carbking]

1 hour ago, Peter R. said:

 

Are Packard DL51 brass bowls interchangable with pot metal bowls? 

 

The answer is an "indefinite maybe"

 

Regardless of the current repro one bowl fits all, but is correct for NONE; there were several different bowls. It MIGHT interchange IF you also interchange pumps, aspirator valves, metering needles/glands, etc., etc., etc.

 

Jon

[Peter R.]

52 minutes ago, yachtflame said:

Jeez Ed, my distributer looked fine until you took the paint off it! I was using that to hold it together!!

 

If I were you I would replace this breaker cup. Your distributor is using an expensive distributor cap. A breakage of the cup will very likely destroy your distributor cap. I have a bunch of distributors in stock and might be able to help you with a cup if you need one.